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Trump Asks Supreme Court to Block Releases of Records to 1/6 Panel; Biden Says He Supports Filibuster Carve-Out for Voting Rights; Fed-Up Librarians Fight Back Against Texas Book Ban; Nurse: Worst Surge I've Seen So Far. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired December 23, 2021 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: And these records would be key to see what Trump was doing on and leading up to January 6th.
Because these records include handwritten notes from then chief of staff, Mark Meadows, drafts of speeches and also visitor call logs from the White House, all of which Trump wants to keep secret.
Of course, the current president, Joe Biden, said he will not block the documents, that they should be handed over to the committee, especially in light what have happened on January 6th.
And so far, the two courts who have heard the case have agreed. They say the documents belong to the office of the president and not Trump himself. And that President Biden, the current president, is the one whose decision should prevail here.
So, Ana, we'll see if the Supreme Court takes up this case, if they continue to block those documents.
In the meantime, to underscore here though, until the Supreme Court makes a decision on whether they'll hear the case, whether they'll continue to block the documents, the documents will, in fact, be blocked.
They won't be handed over to the committee just yet. But uncertain how quickly the court could make those decisions. It could be a while -- Ana?
ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: He waited until the very last day of that two- week pause on the last court's ruling to file this appeal.
Thank you, Jessica Schneider.
Let's discuss with CNN legal analyst, Norm Eisen. He was special counsel for House Democrats in Trump's first impeachment trial. He was also the White House ethics czar in the Obama administration.
Also joining us, former Democratic Senator from Alabama, Doug Jones, who is also a former federal prosecutor. And CNN political commentator and former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania, Charlie Dent.
Gentlemen, thanks so much for being on with us.
Let me start with you, Norm.
What do you think the Supreme Court does with it? And how quickly could they act?
NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Ana, thanks for having me back.
The court gets hundreds and hundreds of these applications every year. And when there's no legal basis for providing relief, including a stay, it doesn't take them up. That's what they should do here.
A former president, as the two lower courts have held decisively, a former president has no more right to assert executive privilege over documents than he does to take the Resolute Desk or the portrait of Washington by Gilbert Stuart with him when he leaves.
His responsibilities end.
He has an opportunity to be heard. He has been heard. So there's no sound legal basis. The court should deny this. And they should deny it briskly, likely, in January.
However, it's very careless to predict what they'll do. Using reason and logic as a guide, there should be no further stay and no further delay. But we'll have to wait to see what they think.
CABRERA: And as Jessica pointed out, so far, this strategy to delay is working for the former president, given this began back in October when he initially filed the suit to block the documents here.
Senator Jones, he's trying to keep secret about 700 pages of records from the National Archives, call logs, schedules, notes from his advisers, including his former chief of staff.
How crucial is the outcome for this committee to get answers?
DOUG JONES, (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA & FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think it's very important. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it.
I'm really impressed with the way the committee has methodically gone about the process of investigating what happened on January 6th. They have really done a good job in a bipartisan or almost a non-partisan way.
So it's really important.
The fact of the matter is I really think that this has moved quickly. You know this, was -- this first started in October with the issues on the subpoenas.
We're now at the end of December, and it's already at the United States Supreme Court.
This is moving along pretty quickly as compared to so many other things that move through the court systems.
So I think Norm is right. I think that they should dismiss it. Whether they will or not, I think they will come to an early conclusion,.
And it's going to be important not just for the president but other people like Mark Meadows and other folks who are looking at what happened there, too.
It may be why the Supreme Court takes it up, because there's going to be others that will be looking at what they decide.
CABRERA: That's such a good point.
On that note, the committee is also awaiting a response from Republican Congressman Jim Jordan. They requested he voluntarily meet with the committee.
You'll recall, Jordan forwarded a message on January 5th to the Trump's then chief of staff, Mark Meadow, that was basically a coup memo.
Congressman Dent, Jordan has said in the past he has nothing to hide. Should he have to testify before his colleagues?
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Ana, I predict that had Scott Perry would decline to testify before the committee voluntarily, and I suspect that Jim Jordan will do the same. You're right, even though he has said he had nothing to hide.
I think this is a harder call for Jim Jordan because Jim Jordan has been a leader on the Judiciary and Oversight Committees where he's been involved with issuing subpoenas. And I think this is going to be a very call for him.
[13:34:59]
But I think he'll have to answer for his messages, one that has been talked about quite a bit that he forward, so he said.
So I think Jim Jordan's got -- he's got a lot to think about right now. And like I said, if I'm a betting man, I bet that he does not voluntarily testify before that committee.
CABRERA: He hasn't responded just yet to their letter, Norm. He's the second Trump ally to receive an interview request this week.
GOP Congressman Scott Perry, who Congressman Dent just mentioned, he has already declined the committee's request to voluntarily sit down with investigators.
Is there any reason you think the committee wouldn't move to issue a subpoena to Congressman Jordan assuming he also declines a request to come forward voluntarily or to Congressman Perry?
EISEN: Well, I -- I think that they are being careful and smart in how they are proceeding.
They are focusing their energies on things like the Trump document fight, which is moving at an extraordinary pace. Doug is certainly correct about that.
They are not overloading the system with these litigation fights, so I suspect they are going to tread lightly.
The Jordan information -- Perry is important but the Jordan information is so critical.
He did forward that -- right before the insurrection on January 5th, he did forward that bogus argument that the vice president could essentially overthrow the election when presiding on January 6th.
We know he had conversations, Ana, with the president, including on January 6th, in that critical period of delay in responding to the insurrection. So he's such an important witness.
We'll see what the committee does. But I do think that there may be a need to proceed with more firmness against him. That means a subpoena.
CABRERA: Ever since the election and the insurrection there at the capitol, voting rights have been under attack. And Republican state legislatures have already started enacting voting restrictions ahead of the crucial 2022 midterms.
In an interview just yesterday with ABC News, President Biden says he supports making an exception to the Senate filibuster rules in order to pass voting rights legislation.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whatever it takes. Change the Senate rules to accommodate major legislation with requiring 60 votes.
The only thing standing between getting voting rights legislation passed and not getting passed is the filibuster. I support making an exception of voting rights for the filibuster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: Senator Jones, this is such an important discussion because it really goes to the core of the democracy of Americans' right to vote.
The problem here for Democrats is they don't have the votes they need in the Senate to change the filibuster, even with this one issue. They need all Democrats to be on board. Both Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema said not going to happen.
What are your thoughts on this? How do you get there? JONES: Well, I think that there's still a lot of discussions going on
about changing Senate rules. Clearly, the filibuster won't be eliminated. And quite frankly I don't think there will be any carveouts.
But that's not to say that there's not going to be a chance in the Senate rules.
I think there's a lot of discussions ongoing that include Senator Manchin and include Senator Sinema to change the rules, to go back to where the Senate was at an earlier time with a talking filibuster, putting the majority in a different position.
I think there's a lot of things that be done.
Quite frankly, I think the dustup over the last week over the Build Back Better plan is going to give Democrats an opportunity to really focus on voting rights as they come back in the new year and try to change these rules.
Because as the president said just a moment ago in the first part of the clip, the Senate needs to change some rules so that major pieces of legislation can be taken up by the Senate without requiring 60 votes.
And I think that's where we're headed. And I remain confident that Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema will work with other Democrats to try to do just that, especially with regard to voting rights.
CABRERA: Just putting on a button on this, have you been in touch with him personally?
JONES: With Senator Manchin?
CABRERA: Yes.
JONES: I talk to a number of colleagues off and on up there. And there's a lot of discussions. I talk to colleges about the discussions.
Senator Schumer I think has really divided the Senate and the caucus into groups to try to come up with different ways that can -- you know, have the Senate function.
The Senate doesn't function the way it should right now. And there's been talk, even when I was in the Senate, about changing rules of how the Senate function the way the Senate was designed to do.
[13:40:00]
And Joe Manchin is all in favor of trying to get the Senate to function the way the Senate is intended.
CABRERA: In that same interview, Congressman Dent, President Biden also said he intends to run for re-election in 2024.
Here's what he said if Trump is the Republican nominee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You said you would serve eight years. Do you plan to run for re-election?
BIDEN: Yes. But, look, I'm a great respecter of fate. Fate has intervened in my life many, many times. If I'm in the health that I'm in now, I'm in good head, in fact, I would run again.
UNIDENTIFIED ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And if that means a rematch against Donald Trump?
BIDEN: You're trying to tempt me now.
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: Sure. Why would I not run against Donald Trump if he were the nominee? That would increase the prospect of running.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: Congressman Dent, do you think Trump is hearing that and thinking the same thing?
DENT: Well, I'm not sure what Trump is thinking. I'm thinking there's a good chance that Trump is going to run anyway. Certainly, he'll threaten to run right up to the filing deadline. We'll see what he does.
But I think Joe Biden gave the correct answer.
Look, he never should have stated he's not going to run now. Why would you make yourself a lame duck after your first year in the presidency? It would make absolutely no sense.
But I think Joe Biden has to think hard about his presidency. He only ran as a transitional figure, not a transformational one.
I think that's creating some real problems for him in his agenda, his Build Back Better. And why -- in many respects, that legislation, I think, is a massive overreach and it's failing because it's too big.
And Joe Biden --
(CROSSTALK)
CABRERA: It's very popular --
(CROSSTALK)
CABRERA: Those plans are popular with the majority of Americans.
DENT: I would not argue that case, Ana. I would tell you that the size and the scope are too big. They are scaring people.
You know, in Joe Manchin's state of West Virginia, 70 percent of the people are opposed to it.
So it might be popular, but it's certainly not reflecting in the polls in West Virginia and, I suspect, in many other places.
Because, again, they are looking at this not in isolation but in the grand scheme of things in terms of the -- on top of $6 trillion in COVID spending, inflationary pressures, supply chain shortages.
So I think it's a mistake to look at it that way.
And I do think that this is, again, it's a massive overreach. He did not run to be a transformational figure. And he certainly doesn't have the majorities either to do that.
CABRERA: OK. Thank you all so much.
By the way, there's a poll that I was referencing, a national poll that show 60-plus percent of Americans are supportive of the plans within that Build Back Better bill.
You were citing the one specifically from West Virginia and, therein, lies the complication here.
Thank you so much, Congressman Charlie Dent, Senator Doug Jones and Norm Eisen. Appreciate all of you. Happy holidays and merry Christmas and happy new year. Thank you so much for being with us.
JONES: Thank you.
CABRERA: Up next, a nurse who has been treating COVID patients throughout the pandemic says what's happening in hospitals right now is the worst show has seen. She joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:47:49]
CABRERA: Breaking news. We are told an outcome in the trial of former officer, Kim Potter, has been reached. As soon as court reconvenes and they make this announcement, we will bring that to you live.
Meantime, she says she's scared to show her face, worried she will be arrested simply for doing her job. That job, being a school librarian in the state of Texas.
CNN's Evan-McMorris Santoro has this dystopian tale.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is a school librarian in Texas.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO (on camera): Why are you afraid to show your face?
UNIDENTIFIED TEXAS LIBRARIAN: Because there was a day not too long ago when I had to stop and think. When they come in with handcuffs and they come in with a warrant for my arrest for alleging that I provided obscene material to minors, who am I going to call first?
MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Across Texas, protesters at school board meetings are accusing educators of forcing pornography or obscene content on children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a political thing. This is not a witch hunt. This is genuine concern for children. It's abuse. It is grooming behavior. It's predatory.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: The anger is largely aimed at school libraries. And many Texas politicians are on board.
In October, Republican State Legislator Matt Krause requested every school district in the state scour their libraries for a list of 850 books.
UNIDENTIFIED TEXAS LIBRARIAN: The infamous Texas list -- that the pattern seems to be books that are representative of LGBTQIA on subjects and characters and topics.
Books that may contain depictions or narratives of sexual violence, survivor stories. Some books that are about racism.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: The list includes "New Kid," a graphic novel about a black student's struggles fitting in in a majority white school.
"The Letter Q: Queer Writers' Notes to Their Younger Selves," and "The Cider House Rules," a coming-of-age story that features a character who performs abortions.
[13:50:05]
Republican Governor Greg Abbott took things a step further, ordering officials to "investigate any criminal activity in public schools" after complaints about two LGBTQ-themed books he said were pornographic.
MARY WOODARD, PRESIDENT-ELECT, TEXAS LIBRARY ASSOCIATION: I have never experienced anything like that before where a government agency or any kind of government entity was interested in specifically what kinds of books were in the library.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: The Texas Library Association is traditionally a pretty sleepy advocacy group. But the heated rhetoric is forcing that to change.
Last week, the group set up an anonymous hotline for librarians afraid of job consequences.
WOODARD: School librarians don't go into this business to harm kids. They are working really, really hard to select books that represent everyone on their campus. MCMORRIS-SANTORO: This is happening all over the country. LGBTQ and racial-themed books written for children and young adults are facing powerful resistance. Educators are being put on notice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is pornography, plain and simple, and it does not belong in our schools.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Just since the start of the school year, the American Library Association has tracked more than 230 book challenges nationwide.
The ALA says there's been a dramatic uptick in challenges to books featuring LGBTQ and racial themes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: LGBTQIA-plus students like me, who are being harassed for not conforming to antiquated notions of gender roles and how they should express themselves.
CAROLYN FOOTE, RETIRED LIBRARIAN, CO-FOUNDER, #FREADOMFIGHTERS: Here we go -- yay. Here we go.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO (on camera): There you go.
FOOTE: There it is.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Librarians are starting to fight back in a very librarian way.
FOOTE: And this week. we're sharing books that were gifts in people's lives. And so, I'm going to kick this off by sending the first -- my first tweet from our #FReadomFighters account.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Carolyn Foote is a retired librarian and one of the founders of the group #FReadomFighters.
In just a month, it has become the grassroots way librarians under threat find and help each other.
FOOTE: It's amazing how widespread these book challenges are. People are contacting us, like, privately from all over the country saying, can you help me?
BECKY CALZADA, CO-FOUNDER, #FREADOMFIGHTERS: Scared, nervous, unsure, worried.
FOOTE: Worried they might lose their jobs.
CALZADA: Yes, I've heard that, too or I'm hearing this from my district or they don't know this. What do I do?
FOOTE: They're facing pressure -- external pressure. Like, what if I'm called out at a board meeting or someone's in front of my house?
So really, it's a time when people need a lot of support.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Librarians helping librarians so librarians can get back to helping kids.
CALZADA: I grew up reading "Trumpet of the Swan" and "Little House on the Prairie." I mean, there were no Hispanic girls. That's a disservice to kids.
And so we work really hard as librarians to make sure that kids have books that they can see themselves in. But we also want to offer books where kids can learn about other kids' lives.
FOOTE: And who knows that that's something that would get you demonized.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Governor Greg Abbott's office didn't respond when we asked for comment on what librarians in Texas are telling us.
We also reached out to Matt Krause and stopped by his office.
MCMORRIS-SANTORO (on camera): Hello?
Do you think you're going to win this or do you think you're going to lose this?
UNIDENTIFIED TEXAS LIBRARIAN: It's not about whether I will win or lose this.
I think it's a point in our culture and our society when we have to ask ourselves, what do we stand to lose if we don't correct action and course now?
We can't afford, as a democracy, to believe anything else that will correct this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CABRERA: Evan McMorris-Santoro reporting.
Quick break. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:55:56]
CABRERA: Welcome back. U.S. hospitals are overwhelmed right now. And as we hear from one official after another, the COVID patients needing ventilators are nearly always unvaccinated.
Frontline workers now facing fatigue, frustration, and for some, fading hope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILARY HAWKINS, NURSE MANAGER, EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, DARTMOUTH- HITCHCOCK MEDICAL CENTER: It's probably our worst surge that we've seen so far. We actually just finally said, I don't -- I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: Hilary Hawkins is emergency nurse manager at Dartmouth- Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon, New Hampshire, and joins us now.
Hilary, first of all, thank you so much for taking the time.
You just said this is probably the worst surge you've seen so far. What is different this time?
OK, it looks like we're having some problems with the tech gremlins again today.
You know, Hilary has been through so much. Her hospital has been through so much as they are continuing to try to treat patients who they're seeing with COVID.
And I really want to, hopefully, get her to be able to share a little bit more about that.
We have you again. Let's try this, take two.
Talk to us about what you're seeing and what's different with this surge that makes it the worst you've seen so far?
HAWKINS: This surge has been the most acutely ill patients that we have ever seen. They are young. They're unvaccinated. They have -- we can't allow the visitors in. It is just continuing day after day after.
And then, unfortunately, our staff are dealing with COVID as well at home as well.
CABRERA: It sounds so overwhelming and stressful.
You mentioned in your YouTube post that you are treating some really sick kids. What can you share with us about these patients? What do parents need to know?
HAWKINS: Parents need to become vaccinated. They need to protect their children. They need to keep them out of public places.
We recently had a 7-day-old that not only had COVID but also had the flu. These are just sick -- and it's sad. And we're trying to care for these patients, and it's just continuing.
CABRERA: You made this plea on YouTube. I know this is sort of a last resort, trying to reach more people, help them understand.
Do you feel like it's reaching the people who need to hear it? What has the response been, if any?
HAWKINS: Well, people like you have come out and helped us with the message.
I'm not sure if it's reaching the people that it does need to reach, but everybody needs to get vaccinated, get boosters. You need to wash their hands. They need to wear masks.
We are exhausted. And I'm not sure how long this is going to keep up.
CABRERA: What can you tell us about the patients if you were to share more details about what you are seeing?
I know you've seen some patients who have been vaccinated as well. How do those cases compare to the unvaccinated cases?
HAWKINS: The vaccinated patients come in and might need a little bit of fluids or some reassurance, because they have COVID, but they're generally discharged back home.
They do not usually require hospitalization. They don't require assistance with their respiratory drive. And they generally are not needing to be intubated and put on a ventilator.
CABRERA: And when you talk to the patients who are unvaccinated, one, what kind of, you know, symptoms and serious level of illness are you seeing?
And, two, what are they telling you? Do they wish they had gotten vaccinated?
HAWKINS: The ones that can speak, that aren't requiring ventilators, tell us they wish they got vaccinated. Unfortunately, most of these patients are gasping for breath and can't actually talk to us.
CABRERA: Wow.
[13:59:50]
Well, Hilary Hawkins, I wish we had more time with you today, but thank you for giving us a glimpse into your world. And thank you so much for all you do on every day that you are there serving your patients.
HAWKINS: Thank you. And thank you for helping spread our message.
CABRERA: As I sign off today, I want to wish you and your families a very healthy and joyous end to 2021. May your holidays be blessed and full of love and light.
