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At Least Four People Held Hostage At Texas Synagogue; Hostage Taker Believed To Be Motivated By Case Of Prisoner Linked To Terrorism; Colleyville Police: FBI Still Talking To Suspect In Synagogue Hostage Situation; Australian Court Hearing Novak Djokovic's Last-Chance Appeal Of His Visa Revocation. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired January 15, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:23]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York, in tonight for Pamela Brown. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM and we are continuing our breaking news coverage out of Colleyville, Texas that is just outside of Fort Worth as the hostage situation continues there at the congregation of the Beth Israel Synagogue on this Sabbath.

Authorities believe that at least four people -- at least four people including the Rabbi of that synagogue right now are being held hostage. Two law enforcement officials are now telling CNN that investigators believe the hostage taker may have been motivated by a desire to free a woman by the name of Aafia Siddiqui. She is serving an 86-year sentence right now at a facility near this synagogue in Texas.

Siddiqui was convicted more than a decade ago back in 2010 on seven charges including attempted murder, and armed assault on a U.S. officer -- multiple U.S. officers in Afghanistan. That is the latest development.

The White House is monitoring the situation in Colleyville. Texas Police there are asking the public to stay away from the area even as law enforcement agencies step up security at synagogues and other Jewish establishments all across the country tonight.

First, let's begin with my colleague Ed Lavandera. He is on the scene. And Ed, you've been reporting on this on your drive there. You've just arrived in the last hour.

Can you update us? Are they making any progress? Do they know the state of the hostages?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, from our vantage point here, and we're just a little more than a quarter mile away from the synagogue, you might be able to see through the parking lot here and we are in the parking lot of a nearby Catholic Church where Saturday afternoon services have just started, where you can see some of the State Trooper vehicles there in the distance, and it is down that road where this hostage situation is unfolding.

That immediate area around that synagogue has been closed off as all of this continues to unfold, but it has been described to us by members of this congregation as terrifying and heartbreaking afternoon.

We spoke with one congregant of the synagogue who was watching the livestream, and they described to us a situation that this is a small congregation, about 140 to 150 families, but because of the COVID pandemic, the vast majority of people have not been attending services in-person. That's why there were such a small number of people inside the synagogue when all of this unfolded, but it was terrifying.

Several members describing how they listened to this -- the ranting and raving, suspect screaming hysterically inside the synagogue for more than an hour before the livestream was taken off of the synagogue's Facebook page, and that is why there is such a great deal of concern because at this point, many people just desperately wanting to know the condition and how well the beloved Rabbi and the other members of the congregation that are inside that synagogue.

There has been very little information as to what kind of condition they're in, and what they're going through. So all of that leading to the desperation in the frantic afternoon that so many people here, Poppy, are experiencing.

HARLOW: Ed, what can you tell us about the way if you know, and I know there is a lot of unknowns now, but the way that the lead negotiators on this now are communicating with the hostage taker? I mean, do we know for example, if he is being responsive? Do we know any of that?

LAVANDERA: You know, the details of all of that still very much unknown. We do know that there is communication taking place. But the details of exactly how those communications are going at this point is unknown. But clearly, a very distressing situation as we spoke to that one member of the congregation who was listening to the livestream describing how -- just how chaotic it all sounded.

You couldn't see anybody apparently on the livestream according to this member, and so you could just hear the suspect screaming hysterically, but also vacillating between being extremely angry and also almost like apologetic for the actions that were -- he was taking at this point.

So it's that rollercoaster of emotions that many people who are watching this closely this afternoon are dealing with right now.

[18:05:07]

HARLOW: Of course, Ed Lavendera, thank you very much for rushing to the scene for all your reporting. Standby, I'll let you do some more of that reporting. We'll get back to in a moment.

Let me bring in a member of this congregation, a member of Beth Israel. Ellen Smith joins me on the phone.

Ellen, can you hear me?

ELLEN SMITH, MEMBER, CONGREGATION BETH ISRAEL (via phone): Yes, I can.

HARLOW: I'm so sorry, I mean, for you, this has to just be incredibly painful because you've been going to services here since you were a child.

SMITH: It's incredibly shocking and horrifying.

HARLOW: Can you tell me what you -- I mean -- have you heard anything from relatives of people who may be held hostage right now? Is there anything that you can share with us?

SMITH: I don't think there is much new on our end. I mean, like the -- I was watching the livestream for about an hour and a half before it got shut down, and I have no idea who is in there or what's happening. We're all -- even members of the congregation just watching and holding our breath and hoping for the best outcome.

HARLOW: It is such a tight-knit community from all that I've heard, I believe 157 member families of the congregation, the first Jewish congregation in this county and incredibly close as you mentioned. What have your experiences been there?

SMITH: I could not have asked for a better community to grow up in. It's incredibly tight. The members of the community come together when times are tough. My dad got really sick when I was about 11 years old, and the community and the Rabbi were just incredibly close and supportive of my father and my family in a really difficult time for the community, and that's how they are with everyone.

It's -- there is like, in my confirmation class, there were two people and the entire community showed up for a confirmation service. It's a wonderful, wonderful community full of light and hope that I'm just grateful to be a part of.

HARLOW: A wonderful community full of light and hope. One thing that I you know, I'm just realizing is that it is the Sabbath, and therefore, for many people, and potentially many members of your community, they may not have been looking at their phone or had their television on today until sundown, right? And so for many, they may be just learning of this.

SMITH: I think that for some, that may be the case. We are like a pretty reformed synagogue. And from what I can tell, most folks have heard the news, especially since so many folks are attending virtually during this time.

HARLOW: Yes. Is there anything that you can share with us about the building itself? Right? Again, there are so many details we don't know. We don't know what part of the synagogue, these hostages are being held in. But what can you share with us about the physical makeup of the structure, the different entrances, et cetera?

SMITH: From my memory, there are about three ways to get into the building is, there are two bathrooms, one for each sex, and there are like five-ish classrooms, and the main worship area, which is also pretty small in comparison to other synagogues.

It's only about the same age as my little brother. It's about almost 17 years old the building is. And there is a kitchen. It's not -- that's it, that's whole building.

HARLOW: Yes.

SMITH: Yes.

HARLOW: What can you tell us about the Rabbi being? You've described this as a community of light and hope for your family, how it came together for you, when your father was so ill, when you were just a little girl. I've heard just remarkable things about the Rabbi as well.

SMITH: The Rabbi is genuinely the best human I think anyone could ever meet. He was the one that went and sat with my dad who was not Jewish. My family is an interfaith family, but the Rabbi still took time out of his day to drive down -- we live 45 minutes from the synagogue -- and he drove down to see my dad in the hospital.

I went on a trip with a Rabbi when I was 15 for my confirmation, and it was just me and the other kid in my class and the Rabbi and he just like told us inside jokes. He is the coolest person to hang out with. He is so supportive and interested.

And every single person like, even with that few member families, it is still a lot of people to keep up with and care about and every single person he cared about all of us. And he just was really big about doing what's right for the world, and using Jewish values of compassion and justice to make the world a better place. He is just the best.

[18:10:06]

HARLOW: You talk about values of compassion and justice. And again, there is so much we don't know, right? We don't know the motive here, we don't have the name of the hostage taker. However, once again in America, you have Jewish people being victimized in, you know, in their holiest place in the place of worship.

And coming at a time when we continue to see an increase in anti- Semitism across this country for you, what is it like to see an attack on Jewish people again, in America?

SMITH: It's unlike the fact that I think the shocking part was that it was my community. It's not shocking that it was a Jewish community. It's awful, but the cases of anti-Semitism have risen lately. But since Jews were first walking the Earth like, we have been persecuted. And it's just -- it feels almost hopeless without knowing that it's my community, I could see that it would feel like just another attack on the Jewish community and everyone hurts. But every single attack is painful, but it is almost inevitable that will happen again.

HARLOW: Ellen Smith, I'm so, so sorry that this has happened to your community, and we are all tonight, hoping, holding out hope for the very best. We'll keep everyone posted.

And obviously, if you learn anything else, feel free to get in touch with us again, and we're thinking of all of you.

SMITH: Thank you so much. Have a good day.

HARLOW: Thank you, Ellen.

Now, let me bring in former F.B.I. Deputy Director, Andy McCabe. He is a CNN senior law enforcement analyst. Andy, thank you so much for being here because you know how this works.

An F.B.I. crisis negotiator is the lead right now in talking to this suspect throughout the standoff. Can you shed some light on what a conversation like that is like over what now has been a span of, you know, many hours?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, sure, Poppy, and it's so important to recognize that this is exactly where the F.B.I. wants to be, to be in contact with the hostage taker, to have that negotiator, that trained negotiator on the line. This is the best terms you could be on at this point.

So, that conversation is taking place, and the negotiator is initially trying to assess the hostage taker's state of mind, their propensity, or maybe plans to engage in violence, and then they start building a relationship of trust.

The negotiator tries to ask the hostage taker, if there are things that they need, like food or water or a communications device, that's, of course, for the purpose of talking to the F.B.I. to kind of build -- put some -- put a little bit of trust in the bank account, as it were.

Then they start talking about demands. What are those things that the hostage taker is looking to accomplish? Why is he doing this? What does he want to get out of it? And you start having those -- all of those conversations with the intent of trying to get that person to slowly release some of the hostages, not going to happen all at once, of course, or very quickly. But the goal is to get the hostages out of that situation in any way you can.

So if you want to -- if you're -- you can bargain and give the hostage taker some of the things, accede to some of their demands, as long as you're getting something back.

HARLOW: Well, that's interesting. I mean, you think almost never would all of these four individuals be released at once.

MCCABE: You know, that would be great, but it's unrealistic. You know, you typically would try to get a sense of whether or not there were hostages who were in physical or medical distress, you try to get those people released first, whether there may be elderly folks or people who are infirmed or, you know, in a tougher shape physically, try to appeal to this person's sense of maybe wanting to pare down or simplify his situation, and try to convince him that having one person is just as valuable to him as having four. So you know, why not let the sick person go -- that sort of thing.

HARLOW: Andy, thank you very, very much and stand by with us if you can, as we learn more, and this is developing minute by minute.

MCCABE: Sure.

HARLOW: Andy McCabe, thank you very, very much. We are watching and monitoring this breaking news. We have our reporters on the scene in Colleyville, Texas where an armed man is holding at least four people hostage inside of this Beth Israel Synagogue.

We have the latest next. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:18:59]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

We are following the breaking news, really sad breaking news right near Fort Worth, Texas tonight. There is a hostage situation underway. The standoff is unfolding inside of a synagogue. The congregation is Beth Israel in Colleyville, Texas.

A law enforcement official familiar with this investigation that is very much ongoing tells CNN, there are believed to be at least four hostages currently.

Witnesses say they were watching a Facebook livestream of services when the hostage taker, the armed hostage taker interrupted. The temple's Rabbi is believed to be among the hostages.

The White House is monitoring the situation as is the Attorney General Merrick Garland.

Two law enforcement officials are now telling us here at CNN that investigators believe that the hostage taker may have been motivated by a desire to free a woman by the name of Aafia Siddiqui. Counterterrorism groups have dubbed her Lady al-Qaeda. She is serving an 86-year sentence at a facility in Texas.

Siddiqui was convicted over a decade ago in 2010 on seven charges including attempted murder and armed assault on U.S. officers in Afghanistan.

[18:20:07]

HOWELL: With me now is the CEO and the National Director of the Anti- Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt. Thank you very much, and I'm so sorry, it is on this news, but thank you for taking the time this evening.

JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO and NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: I'm happy to be here, and I wish the circumstances were different as well. HARLOW: We all do. I just want to be very clear to our viewers,

there's just so much we don't know, right? We don't have the name of the hostage taker. We don't have the names of those being held or their conditions. We don't have a motive.

But one thing is very clear, and this is people of the Jewish faith once again in America being victimized. What is your response to what is happening right now?

GREENBLATT: Yes, unfortunately, Poppy, I feel like you know, we've been here before. This is the first time that anyone at ADL can recall a hostage taking at a synagogue. But unfortunately, Jewish sites have been targeted again and again and again, by extremists over the years. And unfortunately, this fits into that pattern very neatly.

The reality is that, there is a reason why synagogues, as well as Jewish Day Schools, Jewish community centers, Jewish communal offices, all have intense security, because they face a series of threats.

Now, Aafia Siddiqui, I can tell you, you know, our Center on Extremism, has tracked her for years even before her arrest. We know her husband is the nephew of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and we know that she was affiliated with al-Qaeda.

But most germane to this situation, Poppy, we know that she has been open and explicit in her anti-Semitism. You see, anti-Jewish conspiracies tend to loom large in the minds of extremists, including Islamist extremists.

When she was or after she was arrested, and she went to Court, she insisted that there were no Jews in her jury pool. She used anti- Semitic tropes throughout the trial, and then literally when her verdict was announced, okay, and she was convicted of crimes against America, including shooting U.S. troops in an act of attempted murder, her public exclamation was that this verdict didn't come from America, it came from Israel.

So this is a woman who we know and her supporters who we know spout hostile anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Now again, there is a lot more information we need to gather about who did this? Why exactly he is doing this? But we're very alarmed.

HARLOW: Right. And Jonathan, just let me remind our viewers if people are just joining us and hearing you talking about Aafia Siddiqui who is in U.S. custody. She is serving an 86-year prison sentence in Texas right now.

The reason you're describing her and these crimes is because we've just been told in the last hour by two different law enforcement officials that investigators right now believe that the hostage taker in the Texas synagogue situation may have been motivated by a desire to try in some way to get her freed. Right?

We don't know again, the hostage taker's name or the connection. But I appreciate you -- I appreciate you laying that out. The fact that this was being livestreamed, right, and our reporting is, you know, for well over an hour, people could hear this, could hear the gunman.

GREENBLATT: Yes. So many synagogues, Poppy, have moved to livestreaming services because of COVID restrictions.

HARLOW: Right.

GREENBLATT: You know, my synagogue, many family, and friends. So some you can go to service, but you can livestream them. So it's really not a surprise that it was being live streamed.

This is a reformed synagogue located in suburban Dallas. And you know, many of the members would have been at home watching this on their laptops, on their computers, even on their phones. That's just part of the new kind of way that we're worshipping in this post COVID omicron world.

But again, what's scary is that the idea that someone with weapons of some kind could get into the synagogue, and hold the Rabbi and these other people hostage.

We have staff -- ADL has staff on the ground in Colleyville, you know, at the Command Center, and we're monitoring the situation very closely. And Poppy, I'll also tell you, I've gotten many calls this evening from Jewish leaders around the country. People are scared. People are very, very terrified.

HARLOW: Well, we know that the government -- Federal government is deploying extra resources to synagogues in Jewish centers across the country in response to this.

Jonathan Greenblatt, we are all hoping for the best as we continue to monitor this. I appreciate you joining me tonight.

GREENBLATT: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: CNN is live on the scene of what is an ongoing hostage situation right now in Colleyville, Texas. That is right near Fort Worth, an armed man is holding at least four people hostage inside a synagogue.

We'll bring you more right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:29:32]

HARLOW: Welcome back to CNN where we are covering breaking news right now, a rabbi is believed to be among four hostages being held at a synagogue in Colleyville, Texas. The suspect reportedly telling negotiators he was motivated by the case of Aafia Siddiqui. She is a convicted terrorist serving an 86-year sentence in Texas. We'll talk more about that in a moment.

Some really significant breaking news that just came across. We now know the FBI is still talking to the suspect inside. That is a significant development. He's been inside the synagogue for five plus hours now. And the Colleyville Police Department just put out a statement saying that there have been no injuries reported at this time, so that is a very welcome development. No injuries reported, at least at this time. But still a very, very tense and dangerous situation with four people being held hostage by this armed hostage taker.

Let's go to our Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez. Evan, there's a lot we don't know. We don't know who's being held. We don't know the hostage taker's name. What are you hearing from your FBI sources?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the good signs at this stage, Poppy, is the fact that according to the Colleyville Police Department, they say that the FBI crisis negotiators are still in contact with the suspect. So that is a good sign. As long as those communications are ongoing, the hope remains that this gets resolved without anybody getting hurt and that's obviously the goal here for the FBI, for the police department that's there on the scene.

And that's one of the things that they're working on right now. They're trying to reach anybody who may be able to talk to this person, to try to get them to de-escalate and to come out peacefully. That's part of what happens behind the scenes as the FBI tries to learn more about this person.

Obviously, we know, from our own reporting, we know that one of his beefs, so to speak, or one of the motivations appears to be this case of Aafia Siddiqui. And so that's one of the things that they're trying to figure out. Anybody who knows this person, how far this goes back, what is exactly this motivation, where does this come from and to try to figure out a way to get to this person to make sure that nobody is harmed.

As Ed reported earlier, if you listen to the live stream, he goes from saying that he doesn't want to hurt anybody to sort of ranting very uncontrollably and seeming to be quite angry about whatever his motivation is. So that's one of the things that they want to make sure is to try to bring this down and to try to have him come out without hurting anybody.

HARLOW: Evan, thank you very much for your reporting. Standby, as I also bring in CNN National Security Analyst Juliette Kayyem and former Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey. Thank you both for being here.

Charles, let me just begin with you - Commissioner, I should say, on what we just heard from the Colleyville Police Department and that is their statement that the lead negotiators, which is through the FBI, are still in touch with this hostage taker. But also that there are no injuries reported at this time, after five plus hours of these people being held hostage, that's significant.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it's significant. That's good news. I mean, first of all, lines of communication are still there and the FBI has excellent negotiators. So I'm glad that they're at least still communicating the fact that no one has been injured thus far is also obviously good, because the safety of the hostages is the first and most important thing, as we watch this unfold.

If this guy's motive was just to kill, he would have done that already. So he's trying to negotiate. If it involves this one person who's already in custody, then obviously this is going to take a little time. So I wouldn't be surprised that this particular negotiation went on for quite some time.

And earlier, it was mentioned that he chose the location because it's near an airport. So that kind of tells you what his thinking probably is right now in terms of being able to get out of there, but it's going to take some time, but they've got the very best, they're negotiating and we'll see how it unfolds.

HARLOW: Juliette, what do you make of the reporting that Ed brought to us earlier and that Evan just reiterated in terms of the shift in the tone and the statement from the hostage taker from the beginning to where he was ranting and screaming more than an hour. And because, again, this was - a large part of it being live streamed on Facebook so everyone could hear.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right. So he wanted an audience. We don't know if he knew it was live stream. We don't know if he had done surveillance of this synagogue, but just picking up on what Chief Ramsey said, the fact that he did not go in shooting, is the space that the FBI now has to try to negotiate, to give viewers a sense of the numbers close to 90 percent of hostage situations end non-violently.

That is because time ends up benefiting the FBI. The assailant gets tired. He already might be in some sort of mental state. They can position themselves to come in and get him.

[18:35:00]

So while - as Chief Ramsey was saying, this seems - this is horrible for the people in there, their families, of course, the Jewish community. It also is better than the alternative, which was someone who came in with guns. So I'm hopeful just based on the statistics of how good the FBI is at this, close to 90 percent, again, of hostage situations end non-violently for the hostages and that's the most important thing. What happens to the hostage taker is honestly less relevant at this stage.

HARLOW: What would they be - I mean, it's quite a statistic, Juliette, what would the lead negotiators be able to be offering the hostage taker now that might cause him to as Andy McCabe told us earlier, release at least one or a few at a time? He doesn't think all would be released at a time, but what would they offer?

KAYYEM: So one is just listening. So this is a person who has a - seemingly, what we're reporting now has a political goal and possibly a family related goal. So part of it is listening and then saying things get better, maybe more likely for you - hostage - this is all fiction, hostage taker, if you release - one, two, three, if you release the woman, release the elderly and it would be - maybe the rabbi is the person who remains as sort of the leader.

So that's the kind of negotiations going on, but that's only one piece of what's going on. The FBI also knows that there might be a potential for them to go in as well. And I think that that's why we, the media, the community has all been evacuated from around the area. So it's a very tense situation. But one in which, once again, the lag in time actually ends up being beneficial.

Hostage takers get tired, they can't keep their focus and those weaknesses become something that law enforcement can manipulate.

HARLOW: Commissioner Ramsey, you have you ever had to your department have to deal with hostage situations before?

RAMSEY: Yes, we have. I mean, I've worked in Chicago, D.C. and Philadelphia. They don't normally last all that long. Sometimes it starts off as a barricade at the local level and our negotiators are able to talk the person out, that's usually the way it unfolds within an hour or two. You're usually able to deal with it. It's not that often that you'll have hostages. It's usually a person who's kind of barricaded in that may be armed and so forth.

But I've seen these things before. Again, the FBI is very skilled in dealing with this sort of thing. But it does add a totally different dimension, because you've got four innocent people there that you want to see get out unharmed. And so that's going to be the focus of this because this guy needs to understand that the only outcome that's going to be even remotely favorable to him is that these people be released unharmed and that he come out and surrender. That's the only option he has because the other option is not going to come out well for him at all and hopefully he's able to understand that.

HARLOW: Juliette Kayyem, thank you. Charles Ramsey, thank you both very, very much. We'll get back to you shortly as we continue to monitor this breaking news tonight out of Colleyville, Texas where an armed man is holding at least four people hostage inside of a synagogue. We will have the latest next.

We're also following breaking news out of Australia, a hearing to decide the fate of Novak Djokovic's visa is being debated in federal court in Australia right now. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[18:43:18]

HARLOW: We are still closely monitoring this hostage situation in Colleyville, Texas tonight where at least four people are being held at the Congregation Beth Israel Synagogue. The rabbi is one of them. Part of this incident was captured on live stream this morning during the synagogue's service and FBI negotiator has been in contact and as we've learned continues to be in contact with the hostage taker and the latest reporting is there are no injuries up to this point.

Let's bring in CNN Counterterrorism Analyst Phil Mudd. Phil, thank you for being with us. I want to get to what may be the motivator here in a moment. We just got some information on that. But can you talk to me about we're over five hours in now to this hostage situation, how and when do the Feds decide to go in?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: You got to look at threats to the individuals, the person who's holding the four hostages in the room. If there's not a sense in some of that, you're going to get from the emotional state of the person who is evidently on the phone.

If there's not a sense that there's a threat to the hostages, I don't see why you wouldn't continue the conversation. Remember, getting there evening time, eventually this person is going to get tired and we're not going to be doing this at 7 am tomorrow morning. So the longer they talk, I agree, with the earlier commentators, the better you are as long as there's not a threat to the people in the room.

HARLOW: Okay. So it's a good sign if there is any in a situation like this that this has been going on for this long. Let's talk about the motive, because CNN's reporting that has come in just the last hours that two law enforcement officials tell us that the investigators right now in this ongoing hostage situation believe that the hostage taker may have been motivated by a desire to free a current U.S. inmate by the name of Aafia Siddiqui, who was serving an 86-year sentence at a federal prison in Texas right now.

[18:45:07]

You see her image right there convicted of trying to kill Americans overseas and there's a lot more to it than that. What can you tell us about this case?

MUDD: Well, we have a couple of things here. First, I remember the case when I was back in government. This is somebody who has an impressive, that's Aafia Siddiqui, an impressive scientific background in neurosciences, and that background includes academic training in United States. She lived here for quite a while.

When she was picked up in South Asia, I think it was in Afghanistan years ago, I remember the concern that we had was access to extremist or bio extremist, someone who had this kind of scientific background, if you're interested in things like toxins. So there is the issue of her expertise. There's also the issue of her mental state, I remember, when she was picked up. She tried to shoot, she took a weapon from one of the guards shortly after she was picked up and tried to shoot him.

So I remember thinking that's an indicator that this person is not sort of peacefully walking around trying to use her scientific expertise to save people. She was not in a good way. Just last quick comment I'd make, this tells you why it's so difficult for negotiators dealing with the emotional state of someone like this to walk into a synagogue, thinking that by holding four hostages, you can lower the term in prison for Aafia Siddiqui, that's someone who's not emotionally stable. So that shows you how tough it is for negotiators.

HARLOW: Right. I mean, this is someone, as you mentioned, that was found guilty in this trial of attempted murder of U.S. nationals and government employees. Part of that was trying to fire that weapon and assault against U.S. officers and employees in Afghanistan.

So knowing that that's clearly what they're working with in terms of this man's key motivation, so then how do you convince him, knowing that, how do you convince him to let, at least, four individuals to let them leave unharmed?

MUDD: You have to understand what the levers are that motivate a person who's thinking in a way that's this irrational. So the length of conversation include and plus whatever information they got off of that live stream video, presumably in this amount of time has allowed them to get into the mind of where his emotions are, you got to bring those emotions down before you can transfer that conversation to something like you need to start releasing hostages if you want to maximize the chance that we can have a conversation about Aafia Siddiqui.

Obviously, nothing would happen with a U.S. prisoner, you're not going to offer this person anything. But the first conversation has to be ensuring that the person is not at an emotional level where they're (inaudible) to harm somebody else. And then you can slowly transition to what do we do about this, I understand, I agree with some of your concerns about someone who's in prison for 80 plus years, developing some kind of rapport start with emotion now.

HARLOW: Phil Mudd, thank you so much for your expertise tonight on this as it keeps going. So please do not go far. We'll need to come back to you.

We are staying very much on top of this breaking news situation. A hostage standoff currently underway in Colleyville, Texas right near Fort Worth. We'll bring you more as soon as we have it.

We're also following breaking news tonight out of Australia hearing to decide the fate of Novak Djokovic. His visa is being debated in court right now. We're live in Melbourne next.

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[18:53:00]

HARLOW: We will have more on the breaking news, the hostage situation underway in Texas tonight in just a moment right now I do want to go to Australia, where a Federal Court is hearing tennis star Novak Djokovic's appeal of his visa cancellation. That hearing going on right now. The back and forth over whether the world's number one tennis player will be allowed to stay in the country and play in the Australian Open has been going on now. A saga for more than a week.

But the presiding judge is telling lawyers on both sides tonight to get through their arguments as quickly as possible. Our Phil Black joins us in Melbourne. Phil, what can you tell us about this hearing so far?

PHIL BLACK, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So Poppy, this is Novak Djokovic's last legal play to have any chance of playing in the Australian Open, which opens tomorrow. He spent the night in immigration detention after the cancellation of visa on Friday and now his lawyers are arguing that the grounds for that cancellation essentially don't make sense.

The Immigration Minister in this country who has the power to cancel visas has justified this cancellation by saying he believes that Djokovic's continued presence here would galvanize, would fire up essentially anti-vax sentiment that it could lead to fewer people being vaccinated and that represents a harm to broader public health here.

So Djokovic's lawyers are arguing that that is illogical, that it doesn't make sense that Djokovic has been traveling the world playing tennis throughout the pandemic and there is no evidence that he as someone who has been pretty private and quiet on his vaccination status has in any way enhanced anti-vaccine sentiment anywhere in the world.

And his lawyers are also arguing that actually quite the opposite. It is the government's heavy-handed actions here by canceling his visa, locking him up in detainment, threatening him with deportation that logically, they say, is what is in it. If anything, enhancing and firing up the anti-vax community in this country. It is likely that the legal arguments will continue for a few hours, but the court has made it clear, they believe they can wrap this up at least in terms of the arguments relatively quickly.

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It will then just be a matter of when will the decision come.

HARLOW: Right.

BLACK: It is looking likely for today, but we can't say that with any certainty. If Djokovic gets the decision he wants that his visa is restored, then yes he will take part in the Australian Open tomorrow.

HARLOW: Okay. So it could be just hours away. Phil Black, we appreciate the reporting tonight for us, the morning for you, out of Melbourne. Thanks very much.

We are continuing back here in the United States to closely cover this breaking news out of Colleyville, Texas where an armed man is holding at least four people hostage inside of a synagogue. CNN has just learned that the FBI interviewed a New York-based rabbi who spoke with the hostage taker earlier today at the request of the hostage taker, what information might she have learned more on that when we come back?

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