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U.S. and Russian Diplomats Meet; Giuliani Led Effort to Overturn Election; McCarthy Threatens Freedom Caucus. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired January 21, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Frank and substantive, but not a negotiation. That is how Secretary of State Antony Blinken is describing his talks this morning with his Russian counterpart following high-stakes meetings in Geneva aimed, at least, at diffusing the crisis on Russia's border at Ukraine. Both sides signaling there could be more diplomatic discussions in the future, but Blinken warned Russia that if it invades it will pay a heavy price.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: We've been clear, if any Russian military forces move across Ukraine's border, that's a renewed invasion, it will be met with swift, severe and a united response from the United States and our partners and allies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Also this morning, Kevin McCarthy versus the Freedom Caucus. The House minority leader laying down the law with tough talk for conservative hardliner as he tries to become the House speaker.

And new CNN reporting this morning revealing Rudy Giuliani and other Trump campaign officials were far more involved than previously known in efforts in December 2020 to install illegitimate electors from seven state that Trump lost.

SCIUTTO: We have reporters around the world this morning covering the news from all angles.

Let's begin with CNN's Fred Pleitgen. He is in Geneva, where the secretary of state just spoke after meeting with the Russian foreign minister.

Fred, it struck me that perhaps the biggest news out of Blinken's comments were that the U.S. will provide written answers to Russia's demands. Do we know what those written answers will entail? FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I do

think you're absolutely right, Jim, that that was certainly one of the bigger things to come out of all of this. And also that the U.S. apparently really remains steadfast also on the fact that it was going to stand by Ukraine and also not make any sort of decision about Ukraine or NATO without Ukraine and NATO having a say in all of this.

And as far as those written answers are concerned, it was really interesting to hear from Secretary of State Blinken that, yes, the U.S. would write to Russia. However, he's not framing this as just being answers to Russia's demands, but the U.S. says it's also going to voice some of its own security concerns to make sure that this could somehow become a broader dialogue.

In the end, the secretary of state said is that this meeting was important, but he called it not a negotiation, but he said it was more an exchange of ideas. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: This was not a negotiation but a candid exchange of concerns and ideas. I made clear to Minister Lavrov that there are certain issues and fundamental principles that the United States and our partners and allies are committed to defend. That includes those that would impede the sovereign right of the Ukrainian people to write their own future. There is no trade space there, none.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: So, the Russians, for their part, had, obviously, hoped that there would be some headway, at least on certain issues. And I was at the press conference actually of Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, where once again he lamented that he said that he was talking to the United States about some of Russia's concerns. He said that the U.S. once again reiterated some of their concerns.

And I was able to ask Minister Lavrov whether he thought any sort of headway had been made at all. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Why is Russia doing this now? Why do you feel that you need to make these troop deployments now when really the security posture of the U.S. and NATO really hasn't change over the past couple of years.

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): I think that the State Department also needs to analyze how fair CNN is in presenting its information and the accuracy of the facts that are represented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: So you could hear Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, taking a swipe at CNN, but also saying that, of course, the Russians have their security concerns, their security demands. He also once again reiterated that the Russians, as they put it, do not plan to invade Ukraine, as he put it, and are not threatening Ukraine. Obviously, the U.S. and its allies and the Ukrainians see that very different as those troop deployments by the Russians are continuing, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And, Bianna, as you know, Russia has often lied. They lied before they last invaded Ukraine in 2014.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And perhaps Lavrov just doesn't like the facts that CNN is presenting.

Let's turn to Clarissa now in Kiev, because, Clarissa, for the past few weeks in the build-up to where we are today, I've been surprised by what I've heard just anecdotally from people on the ground there that their isn't this sense of urgency and fear, quite frankly, of an impending war the way we hear in cities like Brussels and Washington, D.C.

[09:05:19]

I'm just curious, today, what are you hearing from people on the ground?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's a really interesting point, Bianna, and I think it basically stems from the fact that for the Ukrainians this is nothing new. While there has definitely been a much larger volume of Russian troops amassing along that border in the last couple of months, the threat of a Russian invasion and the threat of Russia in general here in Ukraine has been a reality for eight years now. And so people here have gotten used to it in a sense.

And while there are grave concerns about the direction that things are -- the direction -- the shape of events and how things might be going, there isn't a sense that this is a sort of particularly different moment. And partly that's messaging from the Ukrainian government, right? We've heard President Vladimir Zelensky on a Facebook video saying please everybody stay calm. Nobody needs to lose their heads. Nobody needs to go out and start buying all sorts of supplies. Things are under control.

That may be also because the Ukrainian government doesn't want to appear weak and powerless, which, you know, if you look at this from a different perspective, you're sitting here in the Ukraine. Sergey Lavrov and Antony Blinken are standing there in Geneva and they appear to be the ones making the decisions or sort of forecasting what the future might look like for Ukraine. That's a very difficult position, I think, for many Ukrainians to make peace with.

We heard Blinken say over and over again, you know, there will be no discussion of Ukraine without Ukraine, but there is a sense here on the ground that they have been kind of left out of this conversation and that they don't have enough of a say in determining what the outcome of this very tense situation will be. SCIUTTO: Kylie, President Biden, notable in his comments on Wednesday,

noted that Ukraine's potential membership in NATO would be many years off if it were to happen. And I wonder, given that Blinken has now said to Lavrov, the U.S. will answer in writing Russia's questions, demands, et cetera, is it our understanding that that's part of the U.S. approach here, not to eliminate the possibility of Ukraine's membership, but to say it's so far off you don't have to worry about it now?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Jim, I think that is what U.S. officials say privately, of course, right? It is news to no one that it would take a long time for Ukraine to meet the standards that are necessary to enter into NATO. And I think, frankly speaking, some of what the president said earlier this week didn't exactly amount to what the United States strategy is here. He also made that comment about a minor incursion potentially inflecting not as high cost as a full-blown invasion would into Ukraine by Russia.

So, it's hard to tell if his comment there about Ukraine being a ways off from entering NATO is really part of what the United States' strategy is here talking to Russia. I think we're going to have to wait and see really what the United States provides to Russia in these written responses, in these written concerns as the secretary said.

It's also notable, however, that it's not just this written response that the United States is going to be given, but Blinken also said that he and Lavrov agreed to meet again. So, diplomacy is headed somewhere. Of course, substantively, we don't know if it's going to deliver results yet. And the secretary was very clear in saying, Russia has two paths here, right, diplomacy and discussion or confrontation and costs.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and Secretary Blinken not only opened the door to future meetings between himself and his counterpart, Sergey Lavrov, but, Jeremy, he also opened the door, which, quite frankly, President Biden opened last week as to a potential second meeting with President Putin and President Biden.

What is the White House now focused on as Blinken returns home and prepares this written statement next week? Could we possibly see another meeting between the two presidents?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, the president did say at his news conference on Wednesday that he would take a meeting with Vladimir Putin if indeed he thought that it would be productive and necessary. So that door certainly is open. And we'll see what the Russian response is to those written U.S. responses that are expected to be delivered next week.

Here at the White House over the last two days, though, the focus has really been on trying to clean up the president's remarks about a minor incursion, which, of course, sparked not only concerns from the Ukrainian, but consternation from U.S. allies around the world.

[09:10:02] It took just minutes for the National Security Council to issue a clarification. The White House press secretary followed that up with a statement. And then yesterday we saw the president himself also addressing those comments, making very clear that any movement of Russian troops across the border into Ukraine would warrant a response.

And then we also heard from the White House chief of staff. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON KLAIN, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: President Putin should have no doubt any move by the Russian assembled military across the border of Ukraine is an invasion. It will be met with a very severe, economic response from the United States and our allies. There is no ambiguity about that. The president's told that to President Putin directly. He reiterated it this morning. If President Putin makes this move, it will be a horrible mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: Now, the reality, of course, is that President Biden was not clear in his initial comments about a minor incursion. That's why we've seen so much cleanup from the White House, including from the president himself.

Now, the question here is, what does the U.S. do if indeed the Russian aggression is less than a full-scale invasion? We heard President Biden addressing yesterday this idea that Russia has used other tactics in the past as well. And those discussions are still under way about how the U.S. and its allies would respond to non-military action across the Ukrainian border.

SCIUTTO: One thing that has not changed throughout all this is the position of those tens of thousands of Russian troops on the Ukraine border. To our team of reporters around the world. Thanks so much. It's a story we're going to stay on top of.

Still to come this hour, a secret plot to send fake electors to Washington, D.C. Who was in charge? Rudy Giuliani. We're going to have the details next.

Plus, new reporting this morning. Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is threatening the House Freedom Caucus as he plots his path to be speaker. His warning to members of his own party just ahead

GOLODRYGA: And sad news this morning. Grammy-winning legendary rock singer, songwriter Meat Loaf has passed away last night at the age of 74.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:16:42]

GOLODRYGA: Stunning new details this morning about alleged events at the White House in the days before the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Former White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham told the January 6th committee that former President Trump held off the book meetings in the White House residency before the insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: "The Guardian" reporting is accurate, there were meetings taking place up there. I don't have visibility into what was discussed and all of the people who were there, but I can say that, you know, Mark Meadows would have been there, as well as the legal team that was working on all of the bonkers little plans that you were actually talking about.

The former president did that often. He did that quite a bit because there was a lot of paranoia about leaks in the White House. And so he would just have people up to the residence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Also significant, Grisham reportedly pointed committee investigators to documents that could shed light on whether Trump intended to go to the Capitol that day.

We're also learning new details this morning about attempts by former President Trump's allies to straight-up overturn the 2020 election. Multiple sources with direct knowledge tell CNN that Trump campaign officials, led by his former personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, oversaw efforts in December 2020 to put forward illegitimate, fake electors from seven states that Trump lost. Those states, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Arizona, Wisconsin, Nevada and New Mexico. Of course, Bianna, one consistency here is that the fraud, from their point of view, only took place in states that Trump lost.

GOLODRYGA: Of course. And the sources also said that members of Trump's campaign team were far more involved than previously known in the plan, with Giuliani and his aides coordinated the nuts and bolts of the process on a state by state level.

Now, according to one source, there were multiple planning calls between Trump campaign officials and GOP state operatives and that Giuliani participated in at least one call. That source also said the Trump campaign lined up supporters to fill elector slots, secured meeting rooms in state houses for the fake electors to meet in, and circulated drafts of fake certificates that were ultimately sent to the National Archives.

SCIUTTO: Let's discuss now with CNN's senior legal analyst, and former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates.

There's a lot of developments here to go through.

Let's begin with this campaign election plot. I mean it's so straightforward and we've heard so much. It's almost hard to distinguish it among everything. But let's draw attention to this. Trump allies tried to send fake electors from seven states that Trump lost and has been repeatedly confirmed that he lost those states to overturn the election. Is that legally -- does that put him and those allies in legal jeopardy?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It does and it's so brazen, the idea here that you would try to do this in a democracy like the United States of America. We heard about the conversations and often probably wondered why Vice President Mike Pence decided ultimately to not do and go along with this plan.

Now we know, of course, there are good reasons for not doing so. But thinking about what that plan and what the pressure actually looked like, and if he had decided to go along with this plan, that there were actually, you know, forward moving motions about this very notion.

[09:20:00]

It is a crime to try to interfere with elections. It is a crime, of course, to try to interfere with the government's ability to carry out its functions, as we've seen with the DOJ and conspiracy charges already coming out at this point.

Now, in some states you mentioned, like Pennsylvania for example, they had those legal caveat language in there to say, we are essentially electors in waiting. To say that in case we were actually successful in a courtroom to overturn an election then, we, in fact, would be the rightful people. Those caveats seem to have protected at least in the first blush those particular elector. But the others are really startling in just how bold they were in their attempt and confidence to say that they could do this and then brag about it. They think they have no accountability.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and CNN has also caught some of them on tape describing exactly how this went down.

Laura, just to add to the examples of why this was such a bad week legally for the former president, the Fulton County District Attorney that's investigating his potential election interference in Georgia has said that she would like to request a grand jury to help in -- with developing and getting more access to information surrounding his interference.

How significant is that? And what should his legal team be thinking right now?

COATES: It's very significant. But I want people to understand, we're talking about a grand jury. It's not as if a special grand jury in this -- in this jurisdiction can actually issue indictments. It's different than most people think about a grand jury. You have a case that's brought before them. They issue an indictment. They recommended one.

In this case, it's an ability to try to get subpoena power because to this state, they are not able, at this point in time, to get the voluntary cooperation and conversation with people like Brad Raffensperger, for example. So this special grand jury is in a way to have an investigation and get the authority to compel testimony. They issue a full report at that point, and then it goes to a real grand jury who'd be able to act the way we'd normally think about indictments.

But this is a very significant step forward because you have to get the information and be able t get all of your ducks in a row to have the evidence you seek for any criminal charges.

SCIUTTO: So, Laura, it is a bad legal week, but, frankly, we've seen bad legal weeks before for the former president and he's been out of office for more than a year now. There have been no legal consequences as of yet for himself on senior former members of the administration.

Will there be? And which of these investigation, in your view, are most likely to go somewhere?

COATES: Well, I think the Fulton County case is a very, very important one because it would clear up and give more context of that now infamous phone call. And it is a crime to try to interfere with elections in this country.

But also this special committee. The January 6 select committee in Congress. Remember, the timing of the request for information from the likes of Ivanka Trump or Rudy Giuliani or Sidney Powell and the like comes after hundreds of interviews which to me says there's already been cohobating foundational evidence in saying, I'd like you to now address what we already know. If that's the case, you're talking about having the puzzle pieces in place to tell you essentially who ordered a code red, who directed the behavior? Were they answering to somebody? Were they going rogue? And throughout a career (ph) of Trump, when he has not been able to have his fingerprints on things, we're getting closer to that.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, it was interesting to hear Ivanka Trump's spokesperson say in response to the request to speak with her that she didn't -- she didn't speak on the day of the 6th, right, with the president, which is not necessarily what they're asking for, right? It's clear they want more information from her than just that, but not clear whether or not she will, in fact, meet with them.

Laura Coates, thank you, as always.

COATES: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, still ahead, new reporting this morning on the maneuvering among House Republicans. CNN is learning House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is laying down the law. We'll have details up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:28:44]

SCIUTTO: House Minority Leader McCarthy is battling with members of his own party as he tries to secure his role -- his hoped role as speaker if Republicans take back the House in the midterms.

GOLODRYGA: CNN reporter Michael Warren has new reporting on this. And, Michael, McCarthy is warning his colleagues, don't threaten me

with not voting for me for speaker. What else are we learning as far as these threats go?

MICHAEL WARREN, CNN REPORTER: Well, that's right, we've learned that McCarthy, in this meeting on December 8th of the House Republican Conference, really surprised a lot of members with how forceful he pushed back on sort of the farthest right, most vocal members of the conference. One Republican member of Congress telling me that McCarthy switched from friendly mode to stop f-ing around mode.

Now, this is what Republican Congressman Tom Cole, of Oklahoma, told our colleague, Melanie Zanona, about what McCarthy said in this meeting. He said, quote, if any of you come to me and tell me that you are not going to vote for me unless I do something, I'm going to do exactly the opposite, even if I agree with you. And that other Congress member told me that after that McCarthy added to his threat, I mean it.

All of this really reveals the sort of treacherous path over the next few months that McCarthy has. Now, Republicans are very well positioned at the moment to take back the majority in November.

[09:30:00]

And McCarthy, if that happens, McCarthy's really well positioned to be the next speaker. He's really far and away the leading candidate for that.