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Effectiveness of Vaccine Boosters; Russia Tensions; Texas Man Charged With Threatening to Kill Georgia Election Workers; New Coup Plot Revelations. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 21, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. It is good to be with you.

The legal troubles are piling up for former President Trump and his allies who tried to overturn the election. Sources tell CNN the January 6 Committee has now received hundreds of pages of Trump White House documents today from the National Archives, now that the Supreme Court has cleared the way.

We're also learning new details about how top Trump campaign officials and allies led by Rudy Giuliani allegedly oversaw efforts to try to steal the election by putting forward fake electors from seven states that Trump lost.

Also this week, an Atlanta area district attorney requested a special grand jury to investigate the former president's election interference in Georgia. And Trump family members are also under the legal spotlight, as the January 6 Committee is asking Ivanka Trump to cooperate and has subpoenaed phone records from other Trump family members.

BLACKWELL: We're starting, though, with the breaking news today.

The Department of Justice has just charged a Texas man for allegedly making death threats against election workers in Georgia.

CNN's Evan Perez joins us now.

So, what can you tell us about the suspect and the charges?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, his name is Chad Stark. And he was arrested today in Texas. He's being charged by prosecutors in -- federal prosecutors in Atlanta.

And according to prosecutors, what he did was, he posted a message on Craigslist in January of 2021 seeking to pay someone $10,000 if they would kill specific Georgia election officials. I will read you just a part of the threat that prosecutors cited in

the indictment today. They say he wrote -- quote -- "Georgia Patriots, it's time for us to take back our state from these lawless, treasonous traitors. It's time to invoke our Second Amendment right. It's time to put a bullet in the treasonous Chinese."

And, then apparently this was a reference to a specific Georgia election officials that is not identified in these court documents. This is the first of what we expect to be -- to hear many more types of cases of these threats against election workers.

We heard from the attorney general, Merrick Garland, today on the importance of these investigations here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Peacefully expressing a view or ideology, no matter how most vociferously or how extreme, is protected by the First Amendment.

But illegally threatening to harm or kill another person is not. There is no First Amendment right to unlawfully threaten to harm or kill someone.

And bitter historical experience has made clear that the time to address threats is when they occur, not after a tragedy has struck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREZ: Victor and Alisyn, according to the Justice Department, they have about 850 referrals of these types of threats, dozens of investigations just like this one.

CAMEROTA: Scary.

Evan Perez, thank you very much.

PEREZ: Sure.

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Kim Wehle. She's a law professor at the University of Baltimore and a former assistant U.S. attorney.

And I just want to start there for a second, because these false election claims do lead to real-world jeopardy. They lead to threats and -- threats of violence and violence. And so it's just -- for some people, it's fun and games. Oh, they still believe former President Trump's lies.

But then it devolves into actual violence.

KIM WEHLE, FORMER ASSOCIATE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: It's really breathtaking.

And we can say, well, it's not me, I'm not an election worker. But think about it, Alisyn. People talk about the big lie. Of course, it's a lie. But that election in a pandemic involved tens of thousands of regular Americans coming out to do their civic duty for the rest of us.

Who's going to do that if they're afraid for their lives, if they're afraid for the safety of their families? Do we want a system -- situation where there's no one that is willing to do the work of the people because they're afraid of their own safety?

That leads to a breakdown of the entire system? So this is something we should all worry about. And, frankly, I appreciate that the attorney general announced it using the First Amendment, because he's heading off at the past the argument that this is free speech. He's heading off at the pass some kind of distortion of this.

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There is speech that's regulated in this country. And this is one of the kinds of speech you just cannot do. You can't threaten someone with violence in this way. And I'm glad to see they're pushing back, so we can have safe elections moving forward.

BLACKWELL: Kim, I just jotted down the numbers from Evan, more than 850 referrals, dozens of investigations.

I mean, the good thing is, is that this was reported and they found this man before a person of his ilk in Georgia acted on this call. But it must be extraordinarily hard to find these before they're acted on, to find them and get to the people.

WEHLE: Well, elections are notoriously difficult to sort of capture legally, and when it comes to litigation, or criminal investigations, because they're fleeting, right? It happens on one day. Campaigns last a certain number of months.

So, by the time the legal system catches up, it's a little bit late. I think the fact that we have got so much that happens online now, and now that the Justice Department is really focusing on this, hopefully, they can get on top of it, so that people aren't harmed the next round, because, remember, we are coming up on an election in November, one for that's going to decide the control of the United States Congress and therefore the future of democracy itself.

And so it could be a very charged situation. Meanwhile, this is the biggest FBI investigation in the history of the United States around what happened the last round. There's only so many prosecutors and judges to go around.

So one of the things that are -- that's a problem right now is just resources. I think the massive amount of potential wrongdoing that happened the last round, it's just so big, including this possible conspiracy. It's so big that I think one of the challenges is just getting the judicial system's arms around this in a meaningful way, given how much evidence and potential players there are, before there's more bloodshed, potential bloodshed, I should say.

CAMEROTA: And it seems, every week, we learn about some sort of new plot. So there's this new CNN reporting that Rudy Giuliani allegedly was

doing more than just traveling the country and ginning up people, angry crowds, and making false claims. There was this plot to actually name and seat fake electors in seven states that Donald Trump lost.

And they were sending -- they were certifying, I think, fake documents, trying to send them to the National Archives. This is more than just making false claims. I mean, this sounds like a huge crime. But as we have been discussing on the program, where are the charges? Where's the prosecution for this?

WEHLE: Well, what's amazing about this is, this was done in broad daylight. And people, I think, at the time, when they were holding these kind of ceremonial alternative slate of electors programs, people just thought, oh, there's Rudy Giuliani.

But, as you point out, these were filed. Five of the -- all seven of them were filed with the National Archives. In two states, Pennsylvania and New Mexico, the alternative electors had had the wherewithal to say -- to put a caveat, say this is only if Joe Biden's win is considered fraudulent or problematic.

But for the other five, they were filed with no disclaimer, and this was in the context of where there was zero evidence. Bill Barr, former attorney general, came out and said it was a basically a fraud-free election.

So, yes, Alisyn, this is, A, forgery, potentially, a serious federal and state crime. And, B, that then is, OK, how big was this conspiracy? We know the Justice Department has filed criminal indictment against 11 people for seditious conspiracy. That's a big deal, because that means they have -- they have evidence of a meeting of the minds and an agreement to overturn the election, which is illegal.

And then the question in this moment, again, is, how many other people were in on that? Rudy Giuliani (AUDIO GAP) he talk to? And does it go all the way to the former president of the United States? This could not be more serious. I mean, I don't think Hollywood could make it up. And we're in -- and it's just coming out in real time.

And it will continue to, particularly as the January 6 Committee ramps up for public hearings, and every American needs to watch them, because they need to vote in November, based on the facts that they hear between now and then, frankly.

BLACKWELL: Yes, we know they are getting more documents. We will see if those -- the tranche of documents that they received recently speaks to this and more.

Kim Wehle, thank you so much. Thank you.

All right, Ukraine's president today thanked President Biden for unprecedented military and diplomatic assistance, after President Biden promised a severe and coordinated response if Russia invades Ukraine. That same warning was relayed in person today when Secretary of State Tony Blinken met with his Russian counterpart in Switzerland.

Now, Russia's foreign minister denied there would be any invasion.

CAMEROTA: His remark flies in the face of the 100,000-plus Russian forces positioned along Ukraine's border.

Secretary Blinken said he urged Russia to de-escalate the situation by removing those troops.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: This was not a negotiation, but a candid exchange of concerns and ideas.

I made clear to Minister Lavrov that there are certain issues and fundamental principles that the United States and our partners and allies are committed to defend. That includes those that would impede the sovereign right of the Ukrainian people to write their own future.

There is no trade space there, none.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Frederik Pleitgen is in Geneva, where the U.S.-Russia meeting took place.

But we begin with CNN's Barbara Starr with breaking details from the Pentagon on how the U.S. is getting ready if Ukraine is invaded -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there.

Well, it is a just-in-case scenario if the Russians cross into Ukraine, if there is an invasion. Both President Biden and NATO have promised a very swift and stern response, sanctions, yes, but also beefing up the NATO and U.S. military presence in Eastern Europe, along that eastern flank.

So, what we know now is, the Pentagon is working on a series of military options for President Biden to consider if it comes to that. It could involve repositioning troops already in Europe. It could also involve bringing troops from other places from the United States into Europe to beef up along that Eastern area.

Think Poland, Romania. These are the countries that are nervous. These are the countries that want some reassurance. And the U.S. wants to use troops, if it comes to that, as a deterrence against Russia. The big problem, of course, is going to be, how do you know when you're successful militarily? When the Russians pack up and go? Doesn't seem like they're about to do that anytime soon.

So a lot of wariness right now, but the Pentagon always planning, always thinking they say, so they are looking at options about what they want to do. And we just learned a couple of hours ago that already there will be a major U.S. Naval exercise in the Mediterranean in the coming days. It is another effort using the U.S. military to send just a bit of a message to Vladimir Putin.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's turn to the diplomatic effort.

Before this meeting with Lavrov, Secretary Blinken said, Fred, that there was no expectation of any major breakthrough. You attended the Russian foreign minister's news conference today. Does he think that there was progress made?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't think he thought there was a breakthrough, but I do think that he thinks that there was progress made.

In fact, I think both sides think that there was progress made. And that progress comes in the form of the fact that both sides said that they are going to continue to talk, which, of course, is a lot better than the alternatives, considering those more than 100,000 Russian troops that are there around the border of Ukraine or near the border of Ukraine.

One of the things that the Russians say is a good sign, and the U.S. skid it's going to do this, is, the U.S. is going to offer written responses to some of those demands that the Russians had put forward in previous negotiations, of course, two core demands that the Russians had.

One was that they wanted some NATO troops and some military hardware to be removed from Eastern European countries. But their main demand is really that there is no further NATO eastward expansion, and, specifically, that Ukraine would never become a member of NATO.

Now, the U.S. has flat-out rejected that argument in the run-up to all this. Nevertheless, it was talked about today. And I asked Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, whether he thought that some headway had been made on that topic. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): Antony Blinken repeated his position the right to choose alliances. I asked how America is going to fulfill its obligation, which was approved at the highest level in the framework of the OSCE.

Along with the right to choose alliances, the obligation does not strengthen anyone's security at the expense of infringing on the security of others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: The other thing that Sergey Lavrov said right after he said those words, he said dialogue is not at an end and dialogue will continue.

Of course, that is something that is extremely important also for the folks in Ukraine to hear as well, who, of course, right now are really concerned about what's going on close to their borders, guys.

BLACKWELL: All right, Fred Pleitgen, Barbara Starr, thank you very much.

Joining us now, Max Boot, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a columnist for "The Washington Post." Also with us, former Congressman Mike Rogers, who chaired the House Intelligence Committee.

Welcome back to you both.

Chairman Rogers, let me start with you. You were pretty critical at the start of this -- well, let me say after the news conference from the president on that incursion vs. invasion, saying it's either sloppy, at best, incompetent, at worst.

Do you think now, after these discussions, that the U.S. has done enough to assuage concerns from the Ukrainians, from other members -- well, I should say members of NATO as well?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Yes, well, they have made some important steps, which is important, meaning they have allowed the offensive weapons, anti-tank, anti-air weapons.

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We have been calling for that, many of us in the national security space, for months to do that. So, this is good. I'm glad they're getting their feet back on the ground. But, again, they came out.

And why precision matters, by the way, in your words is that, listen, Russians already prepping the battlefield. They're doing information operations in Ukraine, saying, hey, you should be scared, very afraid. They're shutting some things down through cyberattacks.

They're doing some activities in the Sea of Azov trying to close down their Ukrainian ability to move ships out of the Sea of Azov down into the Baltic Sea. So they're already making these preparations, putting troops to the north and the south and the east in Ukraine, which would make it really difficult for the Ukrainians to defend if they decided to go.

So language matters. You had to be really precise. They even said assembled units. I would get up their act together on this. I don't care what they send over the border. We should treat that as an invasion, and kick in all the economic sanctions. By not having clarity and precision in language, you're factoring in on this chart that Vladimir Putin is going through in his mind about what can he get away with.

And so that's why to me this is really important. And it looks so sloppy. Even the fix looked a little sloppy to me. does that mean we can put special forces in green suits like they have been doing and that does not trigger any of those economic sanctions? Again, they need to be very clear, very precise.

And we all need to be standing together on whatever that reaction is.

CAMEROTA: Max, what are you seeing number one?

And what about this dialogue continuing, which is what they -- they all say, no breakthrough, but we're going to continue to talk. How long can that go on?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, the longer, the better, because there's an advantage to the U.S. to drag this out, because when spring arrives, and the ground turns muddy, it would be very hard for the Russians to mount an armored invasion of Ukraine.

I mean, they can still do airstrikes and missile strikes. But there's a sense that the clock is ticking. And there's only so long, also that the Russians can keep their troops forward-deployed the way they are right now. So dragging talks out, even if it doesn't achieve anything, is still very much in America's interests.

BLACKWELL: Mr. Chairman, do you believe -- and I asked this question of General Zwack at the start of the last hour -- that Putin has not decided what he will do next, that he amassed these 127,000-plus troops on the border, now beginning these exercises with the Belarusians, and still does not know what his next step is?

ROGERS: I think he knows what he would do if he decides to go in. I think that plan is pretty well baked in.

I think he's trying to do the calculation, what can I get away with and cause the least amount of harm? Remember, east -- the Eastern Ukraine, east of the Dnieper River, is very valuable to the Russians. It has aerospace industries. the heavy engines on missiles were built there. And that area has lots of ethnic speaking Russian, so people who would more identify in many cases with the Russians than the Ukrainians.

And so I think they're making the calculation now, what could we get away with that we have strategic benefit? I really don't believe he wants Kiev. I don't believe he wants to move west of Kiev, for the reason that he would have a guerrilla warfare that he would be really hard to sustain.

So I think he's trying to make the calculation, what can I get away with? What can I do minimally to get -- reach my objective? And, by the way, just the disruption he's causing really causes problems for Ukraine to go West economically. And so that's -- he's already seeing a win in his tactics already. And so it's going to be interesting to see if he actually decides to go over the border with, in the administration's words, assembled units.

CAMEROTA: And, Max, I mean, Putin is looking for a commitment from the U.S. and NATO to never admit Ukraine. Is that a red herring? Is that really his end goal?

BOOT: That's not really his end goal. His end goal is essentially to de facto annex Ukraine and to reassemble the old Soviet empire. And he's been pretty clear about that. I mean, last summer, he even published this lengthy essay making the

case that Ukraine is not a real country, and it's really part of Russia. And, of course, he has called the dissolution of the Soviet Union one of the great disasters of the 20th century.

So that's what he's up to. And that's why there's very little to negotiate over, although, again, the act of negotiating itself is not a bad thing, if it forestall his military action. But there's very little common ground, there is very little room for compromise, as we have seen over the last few weeks, because the demands that Putin is making, he knows that we're going to reject them.

He knows we are not going to turn over all of Eastern Europe to Russian domination, which is essentially what he is asking for. And so there's really not -- I don't see a lot of room for compromise here, but I think we have to tune up our deterrence and do what the Brits are doing when they're airlifting anti-armor weapons to Ukraine.

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We should be arming the Ukrainians like crazy. We should be preparing for guerrilla warfare if the Russians go in. And I think the most important thing we can do right now is to lay out a menu of sanctions, so that Putin knows exactly what's going to happen to him if he goes over the line, because, right now, with these vague threats, he can be left with the feeling, well, maybe the U.S. and the Europeans, maybe we're not really going to do anything.

But I think, if we lay out exactly what we're going to do, we will enhance our deterrence and we will lock ourselves in so that, if the worst happens, we will not be able to avoid forceful reaction.

CAMEROTA: OK, Max Boot, Mike Rogers, thank you both.

ROGERS: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: New CDC data shows that a booster is the best shot at preventing serious illness from the Omicron variant, but they still have not changed what it means to be fully vaccinated.

CAMEROTA: And the Omicron tide may finally be turning, with more than half of the country now seeing a decline in cases. We will show you the map.

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BLACKWELL: The CDC is not going to change the definition of what it means to be fully vaccinated yet, despite several studies about the effectiveness of vaccine boosters.

Here's CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: And what we really are working to do is pivot the language to make sure that everybody is as up to date with their COVID-19 vaccines as they personally could be, should be, based on when they got their last vaccine.

So, importantly, right now, we're pivoting our language.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here.

Elizabeth, what's the holdup on saying that fully vaccinated means three shots?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I'm not sure what the holdup is. That's sort of the language that people have become accustomed, to say fully vs. not fully vaccinated. I don't know why they have decided to make this change.

Perhaps the hope is, is that people are familiar with the concept of being up to date on your shots. Certainly, parents, we know, is my child up to date? So maybe the hope is that using that kind of parlance that people are familiar with, that that would be better.

Also, they didn't say it, but maybe because this might change. I mean, being up to date now might be three shots. Maybe, a year from now, up to date would be four shots, who knows? So it's unclear why they have decided to do that.

But let's take a look at the three studies that came out from the CDC today. These are very, very large studies. And I will note that they have actually been published. This is not a press release. They have actually been published. So let's take a look at what they found.

So this is all Omicron data, which is super important because each variants has been so different. When you look at booster effectiveness at preventing Omicron hospitalizations, the CDC researchers looked at 88,000 hospitalizations in 10 states. That's a huge number. Boosters were 90 percent effective at preventing hospitalizations, two shots only 57 percent effective.

Then, if you look at booster effectiveness of preventing E.R. or urgent care visits during the Omicron age, they looked at 200,000 visits in 10 states. Boosters were 82 percent effective, two shots only 38 percent effective.

If you look at booster effectiveness at preventing Omicron illness, they looked at 13,000 cases. What they found is the odds of becoming ill were 66 percent lower for people who had booster vs. -- boosters vs. people who had had only two shots.

Now, to remind everyone what it means to be -- or what the booster rules are in the United States -- or the booster guidelines, I should say, the suggestion from the CDC is that everyone aged 12 and older should get a booster once they are five months past their second shot. Less than half of those eligible have gotten boosters and only a quarter of the total population is vaccinated.

Now, it goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, that being unvaccinated is the worst possible choice you could make. A separate study by CDC researchers found that senior citizens, those over 65, if they were unvaccinated, they were 49 times more likely to end up in the hospital -- Alisyn, Victor.

CAMEROTA: OK, Elizabeth Cohen, thank you for helping us understand all of those recent studies.

COHEN: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to the economy. Mortgage rates are soaring, leaving many first-time homebuyers in the lurch, and leaving those who waited to pull the trigger out of luck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There might be some folks out there who were considering buying a home six months or nine months ago and didn't that might be kicking themselves.

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BLACKWELL: And we will explain why the stock price of Netflix has plunged more than 20 percent since yesterday.

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