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U.K. Says Putin Planning To Install Puppet Government In Ukraine; Omicron Causing Tsunami, Not Wave Of Infections; National Archives: All Trump Records Provided To Jan. 6th Committee; Interview With Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD); Committee Still Waiting On Drafts Of Trump's Riot Video From Jan. 6. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired January 22, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:16]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST (voice over): Breaking tonight: Putin's plan to install a puppet government in Ukraine.

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: If any Russian military forces move across Ukraine's border, it will be met with swift, severe, and a united response.

BROWN (voice over): Meantime, two New York police officers ambushed during a domestic disturbance call inside a Harlem apartment. One is dead, one in critical condition.

KEECHANT SEWELL, COMMISSIONER NEW YORK CITY POLICE: I am struggling to find the words to express the tragedy we are enduring. We are mourning, and we're angry.

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK CITY: This was just not an attack on three brave offices. This was an attack on the City of New York.

BROWN (voice over): After the omicron wave, what experts say could come next this year.

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: I do think that if we do it right, we're going to have a 2022 in which COVID doesn't dominate our lives so much.

BROWN (voice over): Also tonight, a Virginia mom charged after threatening a School Board with violence if her children were forced to wear masks.

AMELIA KING (VIRGINIA PARENT): I will bring every single gun loaded and ready.

BROWN (voice over): And finally, what we know about Arnold Schwarzenegger's multi-vehicle crash Friday in Los Angeles.

BROWN (on camera): I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday. We begin tonight with breaking news out of the U.K. That is where a new government reports as Vladimir Putin is looking to install a pro-Russian government in Ukraine as the Kremlin considers whether to invade and possibly occupy that country. A memo from the British Foreign Office says Moscow may be considering

a former Ukrainian politician as a candidate to lead the puppet government.

Tensions between Russia and Ukraine have been growing for months as Moscow builds up a sizable troop presence at the border leading many to fear an invasion is coming.

CNN's Nic Robertson is in Moscow. So Nic, what more do we know about this?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this is the British government saying that the Kremlin is currently considering to install a pro-Russian leadership in Ukraine to replace the existing one, as they are considering whether to invade and then occupy Ukraine.

Now, of course, the Russian government says they don't have any plans to invade Ukraine. They keep saying that, they repeat that. But what the British government is saying is they are naming an individual, Yevhen Murayev. They are saying that he is the person that the Kremlin is looking towards, a former pro-Russian politician looking towards to install as the new leader of Ukraine.

Now, CNN has reached out and contacted him. And he said, look, there is no comment to make here because I'm on a sanctions list, a Russian's sanctions list.

So his implication is that, you know, how can I possibly be doing something for the Russian government? How could they possibly want me because they already have me under sanctions?

But the British government has gone further. They've also named four other people, a former Prime Minister, two former Deputy Prime Ministers, and a former security official, whom they say have been in contact with Russian Intelligence operatives. Those operatives, the British government says are the ones that are currently planning the possible invasion of Ukraine.

So this is very strong language, very specific naming by the British government here, and the British Foreign Secretary says that this gives an indication of the thinking that is going on inside the Kremlin at the moment, as well as shining a light on the difficulty and the desperate situation the British government assesses Ukraine is facing at the moment.

BROWN: Yes, I spoke to a British security source tonight and asked why are you putting this out there, all of this information that you know? And I said that the -- I was told that the strategy is basically to send the message to Russia and also to the public that, look, we know what you're up to, and, you know, to get out in the front foot, as this person said.

In the meantime, as all this is going on, the U.S. Embassy has sent its first shipment of security assistance to Ukraine, sending some 200,000 pounds of lethal aid, including ammunition for frontline defenders. Is there any concern that could provoke Russia even more given Lavrov's recent response about an invasion that unless the U.S. doesn't go to bed with Ukraine, he doesn't think it'll happen?

ROBERTSON: Yes, they say that includes ammunition for the frontline coming from the United States. There was video footage of this at the airport in Ukraine when it landed and arrived. So there is a big effort on to make a very public show of this.

[18:05:07]

ROBERTSON: And I think this is absolutely in lockstep with what we're seeing from the British government by naming this group of people and by putting the Kremlin on notice that the British government believes they know what the Kremlin is planning here.

It is part of a package of efforts to send a message to President Putin, to make him think twice about the potential of invasion and it is not only that U.S. military aid that has arrived today. We know that the Estonian government is sending Javelin missiles, anti-tank missiles.

We know that the Latvian and Lithuanian governments are sending surface to air missiles, the stinger missile system that is good against helicopters and low flying jets.

The British government last week announced that they are sending weapon systems. The Czech government has announced that they are going to send ammunition for artillery. The German government has announced that they're going to send a field hospital to Ukraine -- a military field hospital.

So, all of these things, it is very public and it is done with that precise effort, because they know that this is the moment President Putin is really considering his options and making up his mind. They have to get, as they would say, in his face to get him to look at what they're putting up is going to be the problems coming down the road, if he does that.

BROWN: All right, Nic Robertson in Moscow, thank you so much.

And this newest information from the British government compounds the already growing tension between Russia and Ukraine. So where do things go from here? And what does this mean for the United States?

Joining me now retired Army Lieutenant General and CNN military analyst Mark Hertling and CNN political analyst Josh Rogin.

Great to see you both, gentlemen.

General, let's start with you. What is your take on this report from the U.K.?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's a great report. Pamela. What I'll say is Russia uses multiple types of covert and overt attacks and maneuver options that they hope will cause divisiveness in any country they are looking to persuade to do or influence to do what they want them to do.

None of this is new or unusual, and most countries in Europe I cite Montenegro, Romania, Estonia, Lithuania, and others, have all been affected by Russian malign actions in the past will tell you that they have had experience in these types of areas.

And without divulging details, I used to receive Intelligence about this kind of thing as the Commander of U.S. Army Europe, and your question a minute ago about why are they putting this out there now? It's a great question. It's on the mark, because intelligence communities used to keep these kinds of things close hold.

But now, this kind of information, this publication of information is critically important to fighting back against what Russia is doing, because they will continue to use these types of operations to influence.

You know, the main issue of an attack that we have all been concerned about is just one of the many things that they can do. There is asymmetric warfare, continued attempts at false flag, covert replacement of Ukrainian officials, air campaign, ground maneuvers, and I think that's what we've got to be concerned about as these actions continue between Russia is trying to influence not only Ukraine, but NATO and the rest of the E.U. as well.

BROWN: Right. I'm curious if you're seeing when you look at, Josh, the annexation of Crimea, and how countries responded to that, including the U.S. and how they are responding to what's going on there on the Ukrainian border with Russia.

Do you see a difference there? Like, you know, the U.K. releasing this report tonight laying out the information they have on this puppet government?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, Pamela, actually, I see the biggest difference on the Russian side, because in 2014, as horrible as that invasion was, they never went to Kiev. They never occupied the capital city and they never installed a rump government with a fake President, which is what this Intelligence report says they're planning to do.

Now, of course, it might be one of many plans, it doesn't mean that's exactly what they're going to do. But the fact that they're just -- that they have a plan to occupy the country means that their tolerance for pain might be a lot higher than what the Biden administration has calculated.

And I think that's why you see the Ukrainians, and a lot of people in Washington, frankly, calling for the Biden administration to do more, calling for more lethally.

Why is it that we only -- this was the first -- I mean we've been in this crisis for how many months. They just started dropping off ammunition. I mean, I think there's a lot of people on the ground who say, listen, we don't know what Putin is going to do, but the best way to stop the war is by increasing the aid now, increasing the sanctions now, because once he occupies Kiev, even though the whole world will know that this is a crazy stunt, and to snuff out Ukrainian democracy, it will be too late.

And if one of the options is to install a rump government and then tell all the world to go pound sand, well, I don't think sanctions are ever going to change that once they've done it.

So I think that we have a lot of reasons to be very alarmed.

BROWN: So General Hertling, do you think the fact that Russia is putting together this possible puppet government, does that tell you an invasion is imminent?

[18:10:10]

HERTLING: No, I'm sure that they want to influence Ukraine's action, and I'm not sure that the Intelligence that's been passed through the British agency is completely linked with a puppet government.

Instead, I would suggest that it has to do with replacing officials in a very covert manner, so that there is more intelligence coming from inside Ukraine back to the Russian government.

You know, it would be very difficult to try and completely overthrow Ukraine's Central Government in Kiev. You're talking about a President and a Parliament and Ministries, but they, the Russian certainly could try and influence Intelligence passing and use part of what they call Moscow-rova, the reduction of Intelligence within Ukraine by then placing individuals in key positions.

That's something Russia has done before. I don't think they're considering right now the replacement of the entire Ukrainian government in Kiev.

BROWN: I want to go to the statement we just got in from the U.S. National Security Council expressing solidarity with Ukraine. It says, quote: "This kind of plotting is deeply concerning. The Ukrainian people have the sovereign right to determine their own future, and we stand with our democratically elected partners in Ukraine."

Josh Rogin, quickly, just if you would lay out what is at stake for Americans, for those who might look at this and say, well, that's over there. That's between, you know, Russia and Ukraine. There is a lot at stake, though, for America, right?

ROGIN: That's right. What happens in Ukraine does not stay in Ukraine, not to mention the fact that if there is a war in Ukraine, and if they occupied Kiev, that would be a bloody conflict in the middle of a pandemic that would reverberate through Europe.

The precedent would have been set that democracies can be snuffed out, even in 2022 and that's a greenlight for other autocrats like let's say, Xi Jinping to believe that America and the West has no stomach to fight back against this.

And so I think what you would see is a domino effect, and that would have repercussions first in Europe and then around the world.

And, you know, we can say, well, that's over there, but it's really too late by the time democracies have been snuffed out, because, in the end, it's very hard to restore them, and once we let one go, it's not going to be the last.

BROWN: Josh Rogin, General Mark Hertling, thank you so much.

HERTLING: Thanks, Pam.

ROGIN: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: And when we come back, after the omicron wave, what experts say could come next. Former C.D.C. director, Dr. Tom Frieden is here live.

Then, inside the January 6 investigation, Congressman Jamie Raskin on Donald Trump's reported plan to seize voting machines.

Also ahead for you tonight, how a frustrated nurse is calling it quits over COVID and hitting the road as a long haul trucker.

And then have you seen this? A Virginia mom charged for threatening a School Board over mask mandates in class.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I will bring every single gun loaded and ready.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:17:23]

BROWN: Amid all the positive reports that new COVID cases appear to be leveling off in the northeast and that booster shots cut your risk of hospitalization by 80 percent, there is also this.

Almost 2,500 Americans were reported Friday to have died of COVID. That is just one day. The virus has now claimed more than 864,000 people here in the U.S. since the pandemic began two years ago. Take that in.

Meantime, we have this news tonight, U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson telling Brits the mandatory face coverings and public and COVID passports will be dropped starting Thursday.

Former C.D.C. Director Tom Frieden joins me now. He is the President and CEO of Resolved to Save Lives. Dr. Frieden, great to see you.

So it sounds like the U.K. is now saying it's time to learn to live with this like we do with the flu. What do you think? Should America follow suit and relax COVID restrictions? TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Pamela, if you're vaccinated, COVID

does not have to dominate your life and that's the bottom line here. The more of us who are vaccinated, the fewer deaths there'll be, the fewer hospitalizations, and the less disruption to our economy or society or education.

The challenge is that there are still far too many people who are not vaccinated and we need to be adaptive. As the virus changes we need to change. Omicron is new and different. On the one hand, it doesn't cause nearly as severe disease as delta did. On the other hand, if you compare it to flu, we could have 10 times more cases of omicron in an average week than we have in the flu season, and that's why you're seeing the overwhelmed hospitals and the large number of deaths.

BROWN: So then what do you think about the U.K. making this move? Do you think it's premature?

FRIEDEN: I wouldn't want to comment on their situation, let's focus on what we need to do here. And fundamentally, it's continue to vaccinate.

If you're up to date on your vaccines, you are very unlikely to be made very severely ill by this virus, and to mask up. Where the virus is spreading indoors, masks protect you and protect other people and can keep our kids in school learning.

And then to make judgments based on your risk and what is important to you about what you want to do and do that safely. COVID does not have to dominate our lives if we're vaccinated.

BROWN: I want to ask you about the C.D.C. Do you think the C.D.C. should change the definition of fully vaccinated to include boosters rather than just promote the benefit of boosters?

[18:20:00]

FRIEDEN: I think we need to stop talking about fully vaccinated and we need to discuss up to date with your vaccination series. That's what we do for kids, are you up-to-date? Up-to-date means if it's been six months since your last mRNA vaccine, or two months since your J&J vaccine, you need to get boosted.

And then you'll be up to date and you'll have a good protection, your body will be prepared for what the virus throws at us.

Now, it's true that there is pretty good protection even without boosters. There is new data out that proves that the vaccine is remarkably effective at preventing hospitalization and death, and even more effective if you're up to date.

We don't know what's going to happen next. There may be another variant, it may fade. Delta may come back, there may be a variant that requires another vaccine. We may find out the vaccination is good enough to protect against severe illness for many years. We just don't know. As the science changes, the recommendations need to change. As we

learn more, we can protect people better, but stay up-to-date with your vaccines, mask up, and be careful and do what's important to you as safely as possible.

BROWN: Do you think the U.S. has hit its peak with omicron?

FRIEDEN: Omicron is on the way down on average, but there are still parts of the country that are very hard hit. It's more of a flash flood than a wave, and that flood is just cresting in some places and going down in others.

We do expect it'll go down pretty quickly, but still, you've got kind of the large number of patients in hospitals and sadly, the large number of deaths and with omicron, it is true, unlike with delta and the earlier variants that a lot of people are hospitalized and a lot of people who are very ill with it are not sick from omicron. They're sick for other reasons, and because there's so much omicron in the U.S. today that happen to have omicron in their system, there may be 30 million people in the U.S. today with omicron.

BROWN: Wow, that's a lot. I was one of the millions of people in the U.S. just a couple weeks ago, and it was actually -- it was rough for a couple of days. It certainly felt flu-like even though I've had my full course of vaccinations with the booster.

My husband and kids didn't get it, which surprised me. And as a parent, I was really worried about my kids getting it because they're under five. What do you tell parents right now who have young kids who can't be vaccinated?

FRIEDEN: This is one of the reasons that we have to recognize we're all in it together. The more we can tamp down spread of the virus, the more we can protect our kids, the grandparents, people who've had an organ transplant, people who are susceptible, hospitals, healthcare workers.

We don't want healthcare to be so stressed that if you have a heart attack or a stroke or a broken leg or you need to give birth in the hospital, there's not a comfortable situation there where you are to be cared for safely. That's why it's on all of us really, to get vaccinated, mask up and be sensible about reducing spread where there is explosive spread.

I do think within a few weeks, omicron will have faded, but we don't know is what's coming next. What we do know is the better prepared we are individually with vaccination and as a society with a stronger system to track and respond to changes in the virus, the safer we'll all be and the more we'll be able to go through a 2022 without having our lives dominated by COVID.

BROWN: That is the hope. A few weeks, omicron will hopefully will have faded as you say.

Dr. Tom Frieden, thank you very much.

FRIEDEN: Thank you.

BROWN: And the pandemic has taken a toll on nurses across the world. One Canadian hospital nurse decided it was time for a career change. So she decided to join her boyfriend for a life on the road as a long haul trucker.

Leah Gorman says she loved being a nurse, but staffing shortages and lack of advancement were just too much for her to continue. Gorman told CNN that the problems facing nurses existed before the pandemic and COVID is just showing the real stress of the situation.

Well, right now the January 6 Committee is sifting through hundreds of documents that Donald Trump wanted to keep secret. So what are they learning?

I'll talk to Congressman Jamie Raskin from the Committee about that and much more after this short break.

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[18:28:39]

BROWN: We are continuing to get a clearer picture of then President Trump's actions before and after January 6 of last year.

The National Archives says it has provided all the records to the House Select Committee, while a District Attorney in Georgia is asking for a special Grand Jury to investigate Trump's efforts to overturn the state's election results, like when he asked a Republican state official to find votes.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROWN: It is of course just one of the chapters in this story. Trump and his allies lied over and over again claiming massive voter fraud. They lied when claiming he won states that he didn't. Trump himself pressured the Justice Department to back up those lies. He and others pressured States not to certify election results. His allies urged state legislatures to overturn results and states Biden won.

The Trump Campaign assembled illegitimate Republican electors in at least seven states. He and others pressured then Vice President Mike Pence to overturn results on January 6th.

That's not all. Conservative lawyers created actual strategy memos to overturn the election.

[18:30:10]

They urged supporters to fight like hell and marched to the Capitol, which, of course, we know that was before the siege that day. They promoted the lie of the Stop the Steal campaign. They delayed the formal transition process at the GSA and they considered having federal agents seize voting machines.

That is a long list. Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin is here with me. He is the author of Unthinkable: Trauma, Truth, and the Trials of American Democracy. He also serves on the Select Committee investigating January 6 attack on the Capitol. Congressman, thank you for making time for us tonight.

I want to start with the panel's request to speak with Ivanka Trump. How critical is her testimony?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, she's an essential fact witness because she was there both in the morning when there were continuing coercive efforts to get Mike Pence to bow down to Donald Trump's demand that he unilaterally declare powers to reject Electoral College votes from Arizona, Pennsylvania and Georgia.

She was there later in the day as violence overtook the Capitol, impeded and obstructed the counting of Electoral College votes for the first time in our history and essentially shut down Congress for multiple hours. And she was there when multiple appeals were coming in both from Republican members of Congress, members of the Trump family and high level actors within the Trump entourage to Donald Trump to try to get him to call off the dogs.

So she can testify firsthand as to all of these things that were taking place.

BROWN: So if she is such an essential fact witness, as you just said, why hasn't the Committee subpoenaed her? Is there a timeline by which you will subpoena her if you don't get a satisfactory response?

RASKIN: Well, the overwhelming majority of witnesses who have cooperated with the Committee have been approached without a subpoena. We've just reached out to them and ask them to come in for a recorded interview. And we're not eager to get into legal fights with people. But, of course, we're willing to use subpoenas when people essentially show that they need to have a subpoena ordered and I think we've done that in the case of all of the key fact witnesses.

When I say that she's essential, I don't mean that she is the lone, indispensable witness, because there were lots of people who were there at every particular time that she was there, too.

BROWN: But just to be clear, would the Committee subpoena her if need be?

RASKIN: Well, we're not in the business of signaling our intentions before we've made them clear. I think we've made it obvious to everyone that we're going to follow the Supreme Court's order that everybody owes the Congress of the United States his or her truthful, honest testimony, when we come calling with legitimate purpose, which the courts have now said we clearly have. And, of course, we had no doubt about it from the beginning, but what

could be a more essential legislative purpose than getting to the bottom of a plot to take down American democracy and subvert and overthrow one of our presidential elections, this goes right to the heart of democratic sovereignty and the people's ability to conduct the business of government.

So we're going to get everybody's testimony one way or another. And I would assume that people who have benefited by virtue of being able to participate in government in different ways would be the first ones there to say, yes, of course, we'll help.

BROWN: So in other words, if someone like an Ivanka Trump doesn't cooperate, you're going to - the Committee will do whatever it takes to get that testimony is what I hear you saying. What about reaching out to other Trump children? What about Trump himself?

RASKIN: Well, again, we're not flagging in advance where the investigation is going. I will tell you that as the lead impeachment manager, back in February, I sent a letter directly to Donald Trump inviting him to come and testify. There was much complaint from him in his camp about how his due process rights were being violated. And, of course, the heart of due process is the opportunity to be heard.

And so if Donald Trump wanted to be heard, he had every opportunity to come forward to speak. I think 99.9 percent repeating of the American people would come forward if they were accused of inciting a violent insurrection or organizing a violent insurrection against the government.

And certainly, if you're telling other people to go in and fight like hell and put their bodies on the line and you're willing to see other people die, you should show up and testify about what exactly you had in mind and what your plans were for the day, anybody who's not a snowflake would do that.

BROWN: So then does the Committee plan to more formally reach out to Donald Trump? I know you don't want to telegraph everything the Committee is doing. But look, he lost on the National Archives, we know he Pence on the election.

[18:35:04]

We know he has taken many steps as I just laid out there before our segment to overturn the election, why hasn't the Committee called him in yet?

RASKIN: Well, we're proceeding methodically and working our way up the various conspiracies and plots to undo the election. It was a very complicated situation on the day there was a mass demonstration that became a mob riot and that's surrounded a violent insurrection made up of extremist groups like the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters, the Oath Keepers, the militia groups, the QAnon networks and that insurrection surrounding the inside political coup directed at the vice president. So we're going after each one of these in a methodical way. And the

chair and the vice chair, our bipartisan team are leading very aggressively to get to the bottom of this. We had a great week with the Supreme Court decision giving the thumbs up to our investigation and turning over from the archives, all of the documents that they've got.

BROWN: So just to put a finer point on this, you said we're moving forward methodically. Does that mean, you're moving forward, then, you're waiting to gather more facts, do more work before you ask for Donald Trump to come into the Committee?

RASKIN: Well, look at the point in which anybody's testimony is relevant, we are asking for it. And so you know, I can't think of anybody whose testimony was relevant, who we have not asked for yet and there's still more people to come.

There's no doubt about that and we're going to get a complete fine- grained portrait of the events of January 6th and then the causes behind them so we can deliver a report to Congress and the American people about how do we fortify democratic institutions against coups and insurrections moving forward, because there are authoritarian governments and movements all over the world who are cheering the development of this authoritarian threat to democracy in America.

BROWN: All right. Congressman Jamie Raskin, stay with us. After this break, we're going to talk about more of the Trump campaign advisor who acknowledged as being part of the push to seek fake (ph) electors after the 2020 presidential election. We're also going to talk more about your book as well. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:41:49]

BROWN: Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM. Congressman Jamie Raskin is with us. Thanks again, Congressman.

So Politico claims to have obtained an executive order that was never issued by Trump and it states, "Effective immediately, the Secretary of Defense shall seize, collect, retain and analyze all machines, equipment, electronically stored information, and material records. The Secretary of Defense has discretion to determine the interdiction of national critical infrastructure supporting federal elections. Designated locations will be identified in the operation order."

So I mean, bottom line, this could have allowed the President and his secretary of defense to essentially overturn the will of the people. That was the goal. A former Trump White House source I spoke to confirms that this draft existed. I remember at the time I was reporting on it, so is the Committee reviewing this?

RASKIN: The remarkable thing that I've read about this, I haven't seen it myself yet, is that it would have given the military 60 days to review the various electoral machinery and ballot boxes that were seized. Obviously, they were throwing a lot of spaghetti on the wall as I talk about it in my book, although I read today that one of the Republicans used a somewhat more vivid and vulgar description of what they were throwing against the wall.

They were trying to do anything to derail the peaceful transition of power. And this was one plan, apparently, that was not executed, we'll be interested in checking it out, nonetheless, again, for purposes of telling the American people about what we need to worry about and what we need to prepare for in the future.

But all of it really came down to the violence that was unleashed against us and the plan to get Mike Pence to declare these lawless powers to unilaterally reject Electoral College votes in order to kick the whole contest into the House of Representatives for a so-called contingent election under the 12th Amendment, where we'd be voting not one member one vote, but one state one vote. And that was the ultimate plan, I think, that they settled on as far as I can tell. Now, with the invocation of the Insurrection Act and the assertion of something like martial law powers by the President.

BROWN: Last night on CNN, you told my colleague, Erin Burnett, that you don't believe the drafts of the videos Trump failed on January 6th - filmed, rather, on January 6th are in the batch of documents turned over to your Committee by the National Archives. You added that you believe the archives have those outtakes. What makes you believe that?

RASKIN: Well, I can't say why, but I believe I know that we have a lot more information coming in. I believe that those outtakes of the videotape still exist. I could be wrong about that, but I have reason to believe it so.

BROWN: Okay. And can you be any more specific about the batch of documents and files you got from the National Archives? You said it didn't include the draft of that tape that Trump filmed, but what else? I mean, are we talking about PDFs? We know some of it was from what Trump was briefed on.

[18:45:01]

Can you be a little bit more specific about what it entailed?

RASKIN: Well, I think there are documents in there, official documents that help us piece together the schedule of the day, what kinds of different events were taking place and eventually all of this will be public. And all of it will be made public through our report, where we describe everything that happened.

The sense that I'm getting as a member of the Committee is that the President wanted to move full steam ahead, in the plan to get Mike Pence to buckle under to his will. The violence was unleashed and the president who could have easily stepped over into the Oval Office to go on TV to tell them to go home and call it off refused to do that for several hours and continued to delight in what was taking place at the Capitol, and was essentially turning up the heat on Pence and on Congress.

So it was an effort to obstruct and hinder and impede our efforts to conduct the peaceful transfer of power to receive the Electoral College votes and it's succeeded for several hours for the first time in the history of the United States.

Really quickly, earlier this week, the Committee subpoenaed former Trump campaign adviser Boris Epshteyn. Yesterday, he admitted to MSNBC that he was part of this alternate electoral scheme I reported on with my colleagues. When are you planning to speak with him and what would you like to learn?

RASKIN: Well, without speaking to his individual case, we are very interested in learning about this effort to get individuals in various states to claim to be the official presidential electors now - of the seven states that we know about - now, a couple of those bands of people refused to actually proclaim themselves the official electors and wanted to describe themselves as electors in waiting or something like that. But in the other cases, they did present themselves as the official electors.

And that, obviously, raises profound problems about a fraud on the Constitution and a fraud on the American people. We believe that this was an effort to inject more confusion that would become a pretext for rejecting and rebuffing Electoral College votes, returning them to the legislatures, as they were urging Pence to do. This would have lowered Biden's vote total from 306 to below 270 if they had taken just those three states, Arizona, Georgia and Pennsylvania.

And at that point, it would have been kicked immediately into the House of Representatives for a contingent election, which would have been fertile terrain for them given the way that we vote under the 12th Amendment in a contingent election.

BROWN: Congressman Jamie Raskin stay with us. After the break, we're going to talk about your new book, Unthinkable: Trauma, Truth, and the Trials of American Democracy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:52:28]

BROWN: Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM. Congressman Jamie Raskin is back with us.

So tell us congressman, CNN is reporting that Marc Short, Pence's former chief of staff is cooperating with the Committee. My understanding is he's supposed to be talking to him next week. What do you hope to learn from him?

RASKIN: We want to fill in all the details of the effort to get Pence to unilaterally sweepingly and lawlessly reject Electoral College votes. We want to know what kinds of pressure both nonviolent and violent were in the air that Mike Pence to his credit refused to succumb to on that day and we want to know what other efforts were afoot to undermine an overthrow the presidential election result.

BROWN: I want to turn to something that is very sad and something that you know too well that the hell that a parent goes through with something like this happens, actress Regina King just lost her son to suicide. You are no stranger to that kind of loss. You talk about it in your book Unthinkable: Trauma, Truth, and the Trials of American Democracy, your strength and grace. They have been just incredible, Congressman, so what is your message tonight to Regina King right now as she grieves the loss of her son?

RASKIN: Well, I don't know her but my heart goes out to her and to her family for such an unthinkable and devastating loss. There are so many people in the country who have experienced losses like this because of the emotional mental health crisis afflicting young people. The COVID- 19 period has been an absolute nightmare for the young where their educational lives, their professional lives, their personal and romantic lives have been completely disrupted by this.

And so my heart goes out to her and to everybody who's suffering from either something like Regina and I've gone through or the opioid crisis or the hundreds of thousands of people we've lost in COVID-19 or gun violence or you name it. This is a an age of trauma that we're in and we need somehow to take care of each other and then channel the trauma into rebuilding those bonds of affection that underlie a real democracy. Those bonds of affection that Abraham Lincoln talked about.

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Because there's been so much hatred, and division and polarization injected into our politics that it's very tough for people to recover in that environment, so we've got to put America back together again.

BROWN: Well said. Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you again for all of your time tonight. We really appreciate it.

RASKIN: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: And be sure to join Jim Acosta all next week as he hosts Democracy in Peril, Monday through Friday night at 9 Eastern only on CNN.

And we're following breaking news as a U.K. report suggests Vladimir Putin is looking to get a pro-Russian government installed in Ukraine.

And a source tells CNN the U.S. has similar evidence, stay with us.

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