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Markets Down; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor; Russia Tensions; Interview With National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Dr. Anthony Fauci. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired January 24, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Because schools in New Mexico, like many states, facing a dire staffing shortage due to the Omicron variant.

The Democrat launched an initiative last week urging state employees and National Guard members to step up.

Thanks for joining us on INSIDE POLITICS today.

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We will see you tomorrow.

Ana Cabrera picks up right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thank you for being with us.

We have several major stories today, including Ukraine and how the U.S. is right now identifying troops for possible deployment amid Russian tensions.

Plus, Wall Street is in deep red again, with the Dow currently down over 800 points.

But, first, news on the pandemic, as we have Dr. Anthony Fauci standing by. Here is a look right now at the latest Omicron surge, cases, you can see, still sky-high, but they are going down. Last Monday, the U.S. was adding more than 800,000 new infections a day, and now it's just under 700,000. Another promising sign, hospitalizations. Patient loads are trending

down in the Northeast, and daily new admissions all across the country are starting to decline as well.

Let's bring in Dr. Anthony Fauci now, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

I'm so glad to have you here with us, Dr. Fauci.

You say things are looking good, going in the right direction, as Omicron cases decline. When will we be in the clear?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, Ana, I'm not so sure we can say when we will be in the clear.

The direction, as I mentioned in other interviews is going in the right direction. It's a trend that we have seen in other countries with Omicron. South Africa, being weeks, if not a month or so, ahead of us, had a sharp peak and came back down. The U.K. is doing the same thing. And we're seeing it in those areas of the country that had the first surge to begin with, the Northeastern cities, the Upper Midwest.

We still have a considerable amount of activity in Southern states and Western states. But we project that, in the next week or two or more, we're going to start seeing the same peak and coming down. How long that takes to get down to the baseline that you would feel comfortable with that we're in an arena that we can actually live with that type of activity, it's very difficult to predict.

The best-case scenario is that, in a matter of several weeks to a month or so, we will continue to come down and down. And then, with all the things that we have, all the tools, vaccine, booster, testing, masking, we will be able to keep it down there. That's the best-case scenario.

FAUCI: The worst-case scenario...

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Oh, go ahead.

FAUCI: Yes.

Yes, the worst-case scenario would be that, when we do that, we get another variant that might be difficult that would elude some of the protection from vaccination. I hope that doesn't happen. The best way to mitigate against that is to get as many people vaccinated and boosted as you possibly can, because, as we know from the CDC data just literally from a few days ago, that boosting makes a major difference with Omicron.

It brings back the protection against hospitalization well up to 90 percent. So we have the tools to keep it down when we get it down. We just need to implement those tools.

CABRERA: I think the biggest fear for people is what you just said in terms of the worst-case scenario, where we're in this constant cycle of rise and fall and never really returning to a sense of normalcy.

Right now, as we mentioned, the U.S. is averaging about 700,000 cases per day. And you have said several times throughout the pandemic and, as recently as November, that the U.S. needs to get below 10,000 cases daily for some semblance of pre-pandemic life; 10,000 cases, that seems so far away.

FAUCI: Yes.

CABRERA: Is that still the threshold for getting back to some kind of normal?

FAUCI: Not really, Ana.

Let me clarify that. And I think it's important for people to understand that, when you get to a situation where we're on right now, it's less relevant as to the number of cases, particularly when you have a degree of asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic disease.

The real key parameter is serious disease. If we could keep the level of hospitalizations and deaths down, in many respects, the number of cases, although they can be predictive of what's going to happen with hospitalization, when you deal with a relatively minor pathogenic virus, namely, one that doesn't give a severe disease, and you have a good degree of vaccination and boosting in the community, you may get breakthrough infections, but they may either be asymptomatic or mild.

When that happens, it becomes much less relevant what the case count is, 10,000, 20,000, 40,000, 50,000. That becomes much less relevant than whether or not you have a lot of hospitalizations.

[13:05:08]

If you can get the hospitalizations around the level of other respiratory diseases that we have been accepting year after year as not disruptive of our society, if you could get to that low level, then it really doesn't matter that much what the number of cases are.

CABRERA: So, if you get to that point, what does life look like? Are we able to take off the masks? Do we have to do testing if we have a sniffle?

FAUCI: Well, I don't think so, Ana.

I mean, I would think that would be really rather disruptive. We hope that, when we get the level of protection in the community high enough, either through vaccination and boosting and/or people who've been infected and recovered and have a degree of protection -- hopefully, they will also get vaccinated to optimize their protection -- I think that things will change, where you will not have to be concerned every time you get a sniffle.

I mean, obviously, we don't want to be living under those circumstances. But we will have a lot more testing available. And, importantly -- and I think this is critical, which we don't emphasize enough -- as we get more and more of these effective antivirals available, when people who do get infected who are vulnerable, like the elderly or those with underlying medical conditions, that if you treat them within the first few days, you dramatically diminish the likelihood that they will go out to an severe outcome, like hospitalization.

CABRERA: How far away are we from that being widely available?

FAUCI: Well, right now, there are five interventions that are antiviral.

One of them in particular is very promising. They all are, but one is -- in particular is Paxlovid, which is a direct antiviral. We have ordered 10 million dose -- I mean, dose regimens for that, and another 10 million more. So we will have about 20 million of these hopefully in the next few months.

When we do, that will be a major addition to the armamentarium to prevent people from progressing to severe disease.

CABRERA: Only about 63 percent of Americans right now are fully vaccinated, have received two of the mRNA shots, at least one of the Johnson & Johnson.

But only 25 percent has gotten that booster shot. You talked about how important and crucial is when it comes to protection. What do you see as the biggest obstacle right now to getting more shots in arms?

FAUCI: Well, that's a good question.

I think the obstacle -- there's obstacles in two areas. The obstacle which is probably more profound of getting those people who have been adamant about not getting vaccinated, that it's very difficult. We're going to continue to try to convince them why it's important to get vaccinated.

But for those who made the step to get vaccinated, I think getting the data available to them to show them how profoundly important it is to get boosted -- and the data, the truth speaks for itself. If you look at the data of the difference between two doses of the vaccine of the mRNA and a third dose, and take a look at what it does with Omicron, it makes the protection of Omicron go from rather low to way up to 90 percent for hospitalization.

I think, if people realize that data, they will be much more enthusiastic about getting their booster shot.

CABRERA: Just this morning, Pfizer's CEO said he hopes the COVID-19 vaccine will become a yearly shot, rather than more frequent boosters. What's your assessment on that?

FAUCI: Ana, it's too early to tell.

I think one of the things we need to find out for sure is what the durability of protection against the third dose of an mRNA and the second dose of the J&J. If it's durable enough, even though the antibody levels will go down -- you will be hearing about that. But that's natural that after a period of time the antibodies go down.

But there are things that are not easily measurable -- they can in a general laboratory, but not something that you could do very quickly -- is to look at what the level of the memory response, both memory B- cells that make antibody and T-cells that can give you durable protection.

If that goes out for a longer period of time, that will determine how often you need to get boosted. I don't think one can project that right now until we get the data.

CABRERA: So are there any signs of the booster shot or that third dose having diminishing protection? Because we know some people got that third dose more than five months ago. Should they be worried?

FAUCI: Yes, that's what we're -- well, I wouldn't say they should be worried.

I should say what they -- we need to do is take a look at the data and determine, is the diminution against infection or is the diminution against protection against hospitalization?

[13:10:05]

If we see the hospitalization protection starts to wane, no doubt we would want to give another dose. But we're not there yet quite yet. We're following that data very carefully.

CABRERA: Can we circle back to what more can be done to get the vaccine numbers up, to get people to even have that first or second dose?

The Biden administration has gone so far as trying to mandate vaccine and testing requirements for private businesses. Now, the courts haven't allowed that to go into effect. But, still, the U.S. has not put any requirements when it comes to domestic air travel. There's a vaccine requirement for non-U.S. citizens flying into this country.

Why not take that step for domestic travel at this point?

FAUCI: You know, Ana, we would like very much do not have to make requirements because of, as you well know, the strong pushback on that.

But the one thing that's critical is that requirements do work. Many people who say they don't want to have a requirement to do something, but when requirements are put into effect, they work. We have seen that with large corporations, United Airlines, Tyson Foods, and others. When you do have it, it does work.

Unfortunately, there is a major pushback against that, because I think people perhaps are not appreciating the importance of, as a community, to try and keep the entire country safe, not only for yourself. I mean, obviously, you want to protect yourself from getting infected and getting sick, but it has to do with your family and the communal responsibility to put an end to this outbreak. We have done that with many other vaccines in the past. This is not a

novel situation. We eliminated polio. We eliminated measles. We eliminated smallpox throughout the world. Vaccines work. So if we want to get out of this outbreak, vaccines, along with treatment, along with testing, and along with masking, is a very important part of the comprehensive approach to ending this pandemic.

CABRERA: That's an important point.

But real quick, to put a button that issue in terms of mandating vaccines for domestic air travel, is that off the table at this point?

FAUCI: You know, I'm not even going to comment on that, Ana, because I said that some months ago and, all of a sudden, it became an issue.

We always talk about things, what's possible and what's not. So let's leave it at that.

CABRERA: OK, I want to ask you a final question about John Stockton, frankly, Dr. Fauci, we all know you were a baller on the court back in your day, captain of your high school basketball team. We have the picture here to prove it.

But, in all seriousness, Stockton was reportedly just banned from Gonzaga basketball games, where he is a hometown hero, over his refusal to wear a mask indoors. He also seemingly suggested during an interview that more than 100 professional athletes have died due to vaccination, which -- who knows where that number came from.

What's your reaction?

FAUCI: Well, I'm not going to comment on about any individual person's decision.

But it's really important for people to understand that COVID itself can be a very serious issue, particularly for people who might have underlying conditions. And I think people should try and examine that, before they make a decision, perhaps based on misinformation, which is the reason why we try to get the correct information about the degree of effectiveness and the safety.

This vaccine has been given to billions of people. And it is highly effective and very safe, particularly against severe outcomes, such as hospitalization and leading to death. Remember, 850,000 Americans have died from this virus. You have to take that seriously.

And the way to take it seriously is to do whatever you can to protect yourself, your family and your community.

CABRERA: Dr. Fauci, I appreciate your time and your expertise. Thanks so much for being here with us.

FAUCI: Thank you for having me.

CABRERA: We're following what could be a major development in the intensifying situation in Ukraine. The U.S. is now considering sending several thousand U.S. troops,

along with warships and aircraft, to NATO allies in the Baltic states in European -- Eastern Europe, I should say.

President Biden is expected to meet with European leaders by a video call in just the next couple of hours. It comes as the State Department is also evacuating nonessential staff and family members from the U.S. Embassy in Kiev.

Ukraine is not happy with the optics of this move, calling the decision a display of excessive caution. Tens of thousands of Russian troops remain along the border with Ukraine, with growing concerns that they will invade.

And CNN's Matthew Chance is joining us from Ukraine.

[13:15:01]

Matthew, we are escalating at least the -- optically in terms of force on the border in Eastern Europe. Is this moving further away from a diplomatic resolution here?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a difficult balance, isn't it, that President Biden has to has to make.

On the one hand, of course, there is this very real threat that is growing in Eastern Europe from the Russians with the tens of thousands of troops that they have massed near the border of Ukraine. And so he has to, I think -- or feel the need to have to consider bolstering NATO defenses in that part of the world.

But, at the same time, it's the presence of NATO forces close to Russia which the Kremlin says is the reason that it's got its -- it's got so many national security concerns. And so I think the risk that we're -- that may play out here is, does the deployment of more U.S. forces to Eastern Europe push Moscow over the line and get President Putin of Russia to say, look, I can't bear this anymore, I'm going in?

And I'm afraid we just don't know the answer to that. But in terms of the reaction that terrorist has been here in Ukraine to that recent move by the United States, the State Department to give permission for nonessential staff in the embassy here in Kiev to leave the country and to order the families of diplomats, remember, out of the country as well -- they want to get the children act as this situation escalates.

There's been a very prickly response from the Ukrainians to that. They have called that an overreaction. They said it was premature. It's not something that they agree is necessary. It's happened from the British as well and the Australians. They have also given similar instructions to their embassies as well.

But the European Union is staying put. Other countries are not making moves at the moment with their embassies. And the Ukrainian say, look, there's no real difference in the security situation now to how there was a few days ago or even a week ago. And so they think that was an unnecessary step to take, which adds a

sort of sense of crisis to a situation that they believe is not in a crisis. They don't believe that Ukraine is necessarily facing the impending invasion by Russia, despite what the intelligence says.

CABRERA: Matthew Chance in Ukraine, thank you very much for that update.

Let's hear from Ambassador William Taylor. He is the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and was a special adviser to the U.S. ambassador to NATO. He's also vice president for Russia and Europe at the United States Institute of Peace.

Ambassador Taylor, thanks for being here.

If you are in the embassy right now, and you're getting orders to evacuate, what does this action tell you?

WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Ana,this says that the United States government takes care of its people.

The United States government is concerned, as indeed the whole world is, that the Russians, that Mr. Putin in particular may decide to invade Ukraine. He -- as we know, as your reporter just said, Putin has got forces on all three borders of Ukraine, and is making clear threats to invade.

So, this is a prudent move in order to take care of U.S. government and related people.

CABRERA: If the U.S. moves ahead with increasing troop deployments in Eastern Europe, is that the right move if the U.S. is trying to calm tensions, instead of inflaming them?

TAYLOR: I think it is the right move.

The United States has been pretty passive in its deterrence. And by that, I mean it's said that, if President Putin comes across the border with military force, then it will do some things. It will put on sanctions. It will reinforce Ukraine more. It will reinforce the allies, the Eastern European NATO allies.

But now I think it's prudent, it's smart, it helps deterrence. And that's -- indeed, that's we're trying to do. We're trying to deter Mr. Putin from sending those troops across the border. It helps deterrence by taking a more active deterrent role.

And that includes moving forces to counter what Mr. Putin is thinking about doing. So, this would be an indication that we're taking a more active role at trying to deter the invasion that Mr. Putin is threatening.

CABRERA: I want to ask you a follow-up question on deterrence, because the secretary of state over the weekend warned that just a single additional Russian force entering Ukraine in an aggressive way -- his words -- would result in a severe response. The U.S. has been threatening massive economic sanctions, but some

critics say taking action after Russia invades is simply too late. Here are the two sides. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): If we don't do something strong right now, I'm afraid that he's going to invade Ukraine, which will have -- as the secretary talked about, he's right -- and I think you and I did -- it will have global ramifications here.

[13:20:02]

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: When it comes to sanctions, the purpose of those sanctions is to deter Russian aggression.

And so, if they're triggered now, you lose the deterrent effect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: I wonder, who do you agree with?

TAYLOR: Ana, you will be disappointed. I agree with both.

That is, I think we do need to take action right now and move forces into Eastern Europe as an indication that we are serious about this and we are taking action. I also agree with Secretary Blinken, who says that the economic part of the deterrence is best done when it's threatened.

We have told that the Russians what to expect. We have told them in some detail what kind of economic sanctions would be imposed if they move that first tank or fire that first missile into Ukraine. We have told them in some detail what to expect, and it's harsh. It will hurt the Russian economy a lot. And they notice it.

We remember that President Putin said to President Biden on the phone, if you put those sanctions on, it'll disrupt relations for generations. They're concerned about these sanctions, as they should be. But sanctions are easy to put on and difficult to take off.

So, Mr. Putin knows that, if they go on now, if we do -- if we take the advice of putting on the economic sanctions right now, he's got nothing -- there's nothing further we can do, because it's hard to come off, whereas, if he knows that, as soon as he comes across that border, sanctions will hit him hard, that's a deterrent.

We're trying to deter Mr. Putin from invading.

CABRERA: Ambassador William Taylor, thank you so much for spending some time with us. Good to have you here.

TAYLOR: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: Let's take another live look right now at the markets, the Dow continuing to fall, up a little bit, though, from its lower point, which was over 1,000 points down, currently a little less than 700 points down after a rough seven-day stretch on Wall Street.

What's behind the drop? We will discuss.

Plus, he called former President Trump's election fraud claims B.S. Now the former Attorney General Bill Barr is talking to the committee investigating the January 6 insurrection. What we're learning about that ahead.

And they stood by as George Floyd yelled, "I can't breathe." Now the first trial is officially under way for these three former officers who assisted Derek Chauvin in that deadly arrest. What they're facing.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:03]

CABRERA: Right now, U.S. markets are getting hit hard. The Dow was down more than 1,000 points earlier today. There, you see right now it's trading down 700-plus points.

Barring a late rally, this would be the seventh straight day of losses for the Dow.

Let's get to CNN business reporter Matt Egan.

Matt, what's driving this drop?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Ana, it's another brutal day on Wall Street. And a lot of it has to do with inflation.

You mentioned the Dow. It was actually down 1,100 points not long ago, now 800 points 2.3 percent. Seven days in a row of losses, we haven't seen a losing streak like that since February of 2020. And the losses have been even more extreme for the Nasdaq, which is now down 17 percent from its all-time high, on track for its worst month since 2008, worst January ever.

And some of those big tech stocks like Netflix and Amazon, they're all down big. So what's going on? I think there's three big factors to focus on. One of them is the fact that inflation is very hot right now. And the Federal Reserve has to step in to cool it off by raising interest rates. Low rates are great for the stock market. Higher rates may not be. It depends on how high they go and how fast the Fed has to raise rates.

The other big thing is Russia, Ukraine, those tensions are very high right now. That creates a lot of uncertainty for investors, including our on energy prices. And we know that investors do not like uncertainty. The other big thing we have to talk about is the corporate earnings outlook.

Corporate report cards, they have been pretty mixed. Companies are still making a lot of money, but they haven't really lived up to the hype. And so that's what we have seen the market pull back so much. Now, the question is whether or not this becomes overdone and we see stocks drop so low that investors come off the sidelines and start to buy the dip.

And we may be starting to see some of that today, given that the market has really bounced off the worst levels of the day. And we also know that the stock market is not the real economy. Just because there's losses on Wall Street doesn't take away from the fact that the jobs market has been really strong.

But, Ana, we do need to keep an eye out for whether or not this market turmoil spills over into the real economy in terms of consumer spending and business spending. We will have to keep an eye out for that.

CABRERA: Yes. And we will keep an eye on what happens today as well.

Thank you so not much, Matt Egan.

And just in, CNN is learning more about the conversations between the January 6 Committee and former Trump Attorney General Bill Barr, a source telling CNN the talks were preliminary and exploratory, and saying Barr told the committee he didn't know much.

Here's how committee members Zoe Lofgren characterized the talks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Let me just say it was more than once, and it was a voluntary discussion with our staff attorneys. And we appreciate his willingness to help us find the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: And now House investigators are specifically interested in a Trump draft executive order that would have had the military seize voting machines, a draft that was put together in December of 2020, the same month Barr resigned.