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Republicans Threatening to Jail Democrats If They Win Back Congress?; President Biden to Speak With European Leaders. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired January 24, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: About 90 of them having to do with masks, Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: What is wrong with people?

MUNTEAN: Yes.

CABRERA: Pete Muntean, thank you for your reporting.

And that does it for us today. I will see you back here tomorrow, same time, same place. Until then, you can join me on Twitter @AnaCabrera.

Alisyn and Victor take over from here.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. It's good to be with you.

Next hour, President Biden will speak with European leaders as the possibility of a Russian invasion into Ukraine seems more imminent. The White House is in its initial -- rather, I should say, final stages of deciding which military units to send to Eastern Europe. Tens of thousands of Russian troops have amassed along Ukraine's Eastern border.

NATO allies are now putting forces on standby and sending additional ships and fighter jets to the region. And the U.S. State Department announced it will reduce staff at the American Embassy in Kiev. It's ordering some diplomats' family members to leave because of -- quote -- "continued threats of significant Russian military action."

So let's begin with CNN's chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins.

So, Kaitlan, what is the plan for the video call next hour?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a call. It's got about nine leaders on there from Europe.

Notably, Ukraine is not on this call. We just asked the White House about that. They pointed to other conversations that President Biden and his top aides have had with Ukrainian officials, including Secretary Blinken had several conversations last week, but they won't be on this call that is going to happen this afternoon from THE SITUATION ROOM.

And, of course, this is a call that has been scheduled as we know President Biden is considering deploying more troops to Eastern Europe, more U.S. troops, and the sense of deterrence, as they are waiting to see what it is that the Russian president is going to do.

And they say they don't know exactly what move the Russian leader wants to take next. But they are watching how he's preparing for this. There was the reporting over the weekend after the British government revealed that they believed that Russia was trying to install a pro- Russian leader, they're plotting to install a pro-Russian leader there in Ukraine.

And so all of that, of course, is on the agenda for this conversation today. And a big question has been whether or not Biden has made a final decision about sending more troops to Europe, to Eastern Europe. That would be a shift in his thinking, it seems to be, given, last week, he said that they would fortify NATO allies, talking about if the invasion did happen, if Putin did make that move.

And now it is something that is under consideration. And so that is going to be on the agenda for this call today. We will be waiting to see what the readout is and if any other moves are taken after that.

But it is notable that this is where the White House is. They feel the need to have this call, given, of course, the landscape and how this has changed, and not really changed that much, following those conversations between Secretary Blinken last week with Russian officials.

And so one other thing we should note, this does come as Russia says they're waiting to get these written answers from the United States in response to their demands, some of them which the White House and the Biden administration has framed as nonstarters this week.

So there are a lot of moves that are -- people are waiting to see what's going to happen there, how that is going to be taken. Of course, the big question is whether or not Biden is going to follow through with those options he got from the Pentagon this weekend about sending more troops to Eastern Europe amid this standoff with Russia.

BLACKWELL: Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you.

CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance is in Ukraine's capital of Kiev.

Matthew, how are leaders in Ukraine reacting to all that's happening so quickly today?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, there's been particular reaction from the Ukrainians to the decision by the U.S. State Department to authorize nonessential diplomatic staff to leave the embassy here and to order the families of diplomats to leave as well.

They have said there's no real security reason. The security situation has not changed significantly in the past days or even in the past couple of weeks to justify that kind of move. They called it premature. They have said it's an overreaction.

And, behind the scenes, yes, they're quite -- well, actually publicly as well, they're quite frustrated that this has happened, because, from the Ukrainian point of view, it sends a message that Ukraine is under the imminent threat of an attack.

Now, of course, the intelligence does tend to bear that out. The U.S. have been saying that that's a real possibility. Ukrainian intelligence that I have actually seen from their own security forces here say -- confirm that there is this sort of growing, impending threat just across the borders in Russia.

But the Ukrainian government have been very keen to try and urge calm, to say, look all this talk of an impending war is nonsense, it's panic. They're saying it's having a big impact on the economy. Foreign investors are pulling out. It's costing the country's already depleted economy billions of dollars more, they say, in investments.

And they want everybody to step back and to be calm. They're saying, look, we have been facing this Russian threat for the past the past year at least or since last year, and we have been fighting a war against Russia for the past eight years. Nothing has significantly changed.

[14:05:03]

And so they're really pushing back, at least on a political level, to these us -- kind of this U.S. and other insistence that this is a really, really dangerous situation, Victor.

CAMEROTA: Matthew, are the people there in the region getting any instructions, being told what to do if Russia moves forward?

CHANCE: You know, there's not.

And part of the Ukrainian government trying to urge calm is saying to people, look, just plan as usual.Don't take any particular precautions don't, panic, don't leave the country don't dig a hole in your garden and hide it in case you're going to be bombed.

They're saying, just try and live your lives as calmly as you can and as normally as you can. And, at the same time, they are sort of like stepping up training of civilian reserves. There are training sessions being held for sort of self-defense forces in various towns and cities across the country as well.

And you're seeing sort of on Ukrainian television as well people saying, look, if the Russians did come in, we will pick up our guns and we will fight. And so there is a sort of sense that the country is sort of bolstering itself for something to happen.

CAMEROTA: OK, Matthew Chance, thank you very much for that update.

With us now to discuss this CNN global affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier and CNN military analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Great to see both of you.

Kimberly, how do you describe where the U.S. and Russia are at this hour?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Putin is great at playing a weak hand by souping up his power with his willingness to take risks and trying to scare everyone else away from the table.

What Biden is doing, both practically and a bit theatrically with this move to withdraw U.S. dependence from the embassy and a recommendation to all other Americans to get out, he is signaling his willingness to put boots on the ground, not in Ukraine, but in the surrounding countries, the surrounding NATO members.

And one thing that he's reminding Vladimir Putin of is, these troops, once deployed, don't often go home. And every time Putin takes an aggressive move like this, it strengthens the resolve of other NATO members to welcome more U.S. troops and countries that might want to join NATO to do whatever they can to get on board.

BLACKWELL: Colonel, one president's deterrent is another president's provocation.

How do you think this even discussion of deploying U.S. forces into NATO member countries in the region is resonating at the Kremlin?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's a good question, Victor. I think the Kremlin is looking at this as basically, like you said, a provocation.

Now, I think they have to expect it. And I think that the State Department could explain it to their Russian counterparts by saying that, look, you would have a predictable U.S. presence in Eastern Europe yet in the Baltic states, near Ukraine, and it would also make sense to have that presence there so that nobody goes in to invade you from the West.

That was an argument that was used during the Cold War with the Soviet Union. And it is also something that I think would perhaps, as kind of a longshot type of effort at convincing the Kremlin that it would be a good thing, could work here as well. But, of course, the Russians are going to look at this and they're

going to say, that is not something that we wanted. In fact, it's the exact opposite of what Putin has asked for and Putin -- basically playing into Putin's hand, to some extent, saying that -- he would be able to say that, look, this is what the NATO folks are doing. They're increasing their forces on our borders, they're obviously dangerous.

And it could also work in that way. So it would be something that the Kremlin would look at, I think, very carefully and kind of look on to stop.

CAMEROTA: Kim, former Secretary of State under Trump Mike Pompeo seemed to this weekend continue the wet kiss that is often given from President Trump or President Trump's administration officials towards Vladimir Putin and towards his style of power.

So let me play that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: He's a very talented statesman. He has lots of gifts. He was a KGB agent, for goodness' sakes. He knows how to use power.

We should respect that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Is that helpful right now at this stage in the game?

DOZIER: Well, it is one reminder to Vladimir Putin that, don't worry, whatever sanctions this current U.S. administration leveraged against you, you very well may be facing a second term of Donald Trump or someone Trump-like who would lift those sanctions.

So it is very much of a green light in some ways to Vladimir Putin. And it's also a way of bashing the Biden administration, saying, hey, we, the Republicans, would be signaling with strength such that Putin would know he can't get away with this. But, you, you withdrew from Afghanistan. He knows that you're not willing to take the risks to really fight back.

[14:10:18]

BLACKWELL: Colonel, there's this call coming up at the top of the next hour, the president, this video call that Kaitlan detailed in her report.

We're hearing that the White House is in the final stages of planning to deploy additional U.S. troops. Would there be also potentially British troops, French troops, other members of NATO moving some resources, additional resources into these countries as well?

LEIGHTON: Yes, Victor, it would absolutely be possible -- not only possible, but plausible, that especially the British and possibly the French would move in along with the U.S. into places like the Baltic states, possibly Poland.

That would be something that would be a definitely on the agenda for NATO. And I think those nations would be very much likely to do that.

CAMEROTA: Kimberly, how about sanctions? Is Vladimir Putin afraid of stiffening U.S. sanctions towards Russia?

DOZIER: Look, sanctions could hurt. But, once they're put on, it's hard to unpick them. So that is one of the reasons that the administration has said we have got to hold this in reserve.

But the Biden administration isn't the only one in play. Germany has also stepped forward. Its prime minister has said that they might stop the Nord Stream 2 project, this $11 billion project that would double the amount of Russian gas sales to Germany.

And if Vladimir Putin does invade any part of Ukraine, that would give the German government an excuse to go over, beyond the German courts, that would try to fight this move, because it's a private-owned enterprise. But it would allow the German government to call a halt to that. That would hurt Russia at a time when Russia needs those gas sales.

Unfortunately, would also hurt Europe at a time when Europe needs that gas supply.

BLACKWELL: One more for you, Colonel, on a different topic.

There is so much going on in the world right now. There were these several dozen fighter jets that China sent near Taiwan over the weekend. They did not explain why they were sent in that direction. Taiwan scrambled some jets as well.

The significance of, one, the movement of those fighter jets and the timing from China, from your perspective?

LEIGHTON: So, Victor, the -- there are several things going on here.

Number one, the Chinese are absolutely testing what we call the ages where the ADIZ, or the Air Defense Identification Zone, that Taiwan has. This is where Taiwan sees what's coming toward it and tries to identify what kind of assets they are.

The Chinese -- the People's Republic of China has very actively tried to gauge what Taiwan's capabilities are. And one way they do that is by showing force and by moving a lot of aircraft in that direction.

The other thing that one could say, this particular development over the weekend is one in which the Chinese are possibly responding to U.S. deployments in the South China Sea. There are two carrier battle groups that the U.S. has that are active right now in the South China Sea. The Chinese, of course, see that as a provocation to them, and that is probably why they're also demonstrating their capability vis- a-vis Taiwan at this point.

BLACKWELL: All right, Colonel Cedric Leighton, Kimberly Dozier, we appreciate the analysis. Thank you.

LEIGHTON: You bet.

CAMEROTA: Well, former Attorney General Bill Barr has spoken to the January 6 Committee. What did they learn?

And a stunning threat from former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich. He says January 6 Committee members could see jail time if Republicans win back Congress.

BLACKWELL: Plus, U.S. markets are getting hit hard. Look here, close to 600 points off the Dow today. It was much higher earlier, off more than 1,000 points. We will take a look at why investors are worried.

That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:18:26]

BLACKWELL: One of the first defendants in the Capitol attack to face seditious conspiracy charges was in federal court today for a detention hearing.

A judge's determining if Stewart Rhodes, the leader of the Oath Keepers, can be released as he awaits trial.

CAMEROTA: Rhodes' lawyers say he is not a flight risk with no passport and no criminal record. But federal prosecutors say Rhodes is a risk to public safety. They also say that Rhodes is charged with obstruction of justice, and they fear he may destroy evidence.

Well, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich made a chilling threat this weekend. He said members of the January 6 Committee could be jailed if Republicans were to take back control of Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. REP. NEWT GINGRICH (R-GA): On January 4 next year, you're going to have a Republican majority in the House and a Republican majority in the Senate.

And all these people who've been so tough and so mean and so nasty are going to be delivered subpoenas for every document, every conversation, every tweet, every e-mail.

When you have a Republican Congress, this is all going to come crashing down, and the wolves are going to find out that they're now sheep.

And they're the ones who are, in fact, going to, I think, face a real risk of jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joining us now, Harry Litman, former deputy assistant attorney general and former U.S. attorney, now host of the "Talking Feds" podcast.

Harry, welcome back.

I mean, maybe you have there a Republican, former speaker of the House, who's just really upset by what we're learning and what the committee is learning from these documents that have been handed over by the National Archives.

But what's your reaction to what you hear there about this risk of jail for members of the 1/6 Committee?

[14:20:01]

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: You know, vintage Gingrich, in a way.

What vicious buffoonery, And where there's not the slightest possibility of any crime there. And you're tempted to just disregard it. On the other hand, he is what passes as a kind of intellectual presence in the Republican Party now, with no policy platform except for the big lie.

And so I do -- I'm sure that Democrats on the committee and Republicans think that there's no bottom to where the Republicans will go if they take over after the midterms. And, hopefully, it's not deterring them from doing their very important job of finding out what happened.

So, who's to say? But the basic reaction is, what a buffoon.

CAMEROTA: But, Harry, I'm just wondering how serious to take it, because, I mean, I can't tell if he is engaging in buffoonery, because, basically, the crime that he's talking about is that they have been so mean and so nasty. So I don't know if that's actually a crime, but that's what he cites as having been wrong.

LITMAN: Right.

CAMEROTA: But when he says that, if the Republicans seize control -- take control, win control of Congress did, that they will have every document, every conversation, every tweet, every e-mail subpoenaed, should we take that seriously?

LITMAN: Yes, I mean, I think they will be all -- they will be absolutely calling this fall to do all kinds of investigations.

Nevertheless, you don't have to take Gingrich seriously. There's no -- not only is there no possible crime, but the House doesn't declare crimes or the Senate. It would be up to the Department of Justice to get a referral here and instantly dispose of it.

But will there be sort of vicious kind of investigation of every possible little small misdemeanor? I don't doubt it, if that's how they want to spend their time if they're in the majority. And will Gingrich, of all people, not having been in power for 25 years, be somehow advising and leading the charge? I don't doubt that either. This specific point, though, Alisyn, is buffoonery.

BLACKWELL: Harry, typically, when we have you on and talk about witnesses or potential witnesses for the 1/6 Committee, it's those who have not spoken or are reluctant to.

But we learned over the weekend from the chairman of the committee that they have spoken with, even preliminarily, the former Attorney General Bill Barr. Here's what Chairman Thompson said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): To be honest with you, we've had conversations with the former attorney general already. We have talked to Department of Defense individuals. We are concerned that our military was part of this big lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Barr in the past has been a close ally of the former president.

What's the likelihood, do you think, that he would give information, hand over anything that would be problematic for the former president?

LITMAN: I think he will give something.

Look, he's a dangerous witness for Trump. He mortgaged his reputation for him and Trump responded by kicking him in the teeth, calling him a fraud. I don't think Barr thinks much of the committee. And he is a partisan Republican.

But he's got a book coming out. And he was the guy on the scene saying at the start, there is no fraud here. So I wouldn't be surprised if he amplifies it, gives a little bit of chapter and verse of the crazy conversations that were going on, nothing to completely clobber the party overall.

But I think Trump will be roughed up some by Barr's testimony. And Barr's being smart, as is the committee, by doing it voluntarily, and not having to be forced to raise his right hand.

CAMEROTA: Harry, here's something else chilling that just came out. And this is from Politico's reporting.

Basically, they found out that, in December of 2020, so just before the insurrection, President Trump was considering signing an executive order to make the Pentagon seize voting machines in key states in the -- quote -- air quotes -- "hunt for evidence of fraud."

Here's the draft memo that they got: "Effective immediately, the secretary of defense shall seize, collect, retain and analyze all machines, equipment, electronically stored information and material records required for retention.'

I mean, that is -- the lengths that they were willing to go, every day we learn more, is astonishing. Since that time, former President Trump has only gotten more dug in to his election lies. So what do we need to learn from that? What guardrail can be put up to prevent that from happening in the future?

LITMAN: Yes, I mean, look, chilling is right. It didn't come to fruition or I guess even close.

But this was brutal, because every other scheme they had involved somehow pulling the wool over the eyes of another institution, another branch designed to push back. This was all the people under Trump's command, the Department of Defense, the attorney general.

[14:25:03]

And, by the way, Sidney Powell, no less a personage, would have been the special counsel. If he'd have done it, he'd have been able to do it to keep things on his side for at least a couple months. This is bone-chilling, because it relied on the executive branch alone, which is what happens in the worst banana republics.

What guardrails? It tells us that we have to rely ultimately on the good faith and integrity of the people in the executive branch, which, by the way, happened this time. Not just Barr, but the people who were in the Department of Justice pushed back against the Clarks and the Eastmans.

But that would have been the most kind of direct and brutal overturning of a democracy.

BLACKWELL: It really is remarkable, the discovery of that draft memo, draft executive order.

Harry Litman, thank you.

LITMAN: Thanks, Victor. Thanks, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Stocks plummeting, the Dow down about 700 points now. What's impacting the markets?

We have got that for you next.

CAMEROTA: But, first, here's a look at some other events we're watching today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)