Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Russia Tensions Rising; Pfizer Testing Omicron Vaccine; Stock Market Roller Coaster. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 25, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Everyone says better days are ahead. Yes, they are. The numbers are beginning to plateau and come down.

But only five, only five of 3,200 counties in America do not have high transmission right now. Still a lot of work to do against Omicron.

Appreciate your time today on INSIDE POLITICS. We will see you back here this time tomorrow.

Busy news day. Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thanks for joining us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

All eyes are on the stock market right now, which has become a roller coaster, as once-in-a-generation inflation and concerns about the Fed's plan to rein it in stoke extreme volatility. Right now, the Dow is down about 400 points. It finished with losses six of the last seven days, not -- one day with gains, was yesterday.

And all it took was a wild last-minute rally just a few hours after sinking more than 1,000 points. It's enough to make your head spin, even if or maybe especially if you're the president, despite COVID, growing tensions over Ukraine, a stalled agenda.

It's a question about inflation that appeared to hit a major nerve with President Biden yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS: Will you take questions on inflation then?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you all.

DOOCY: Do you think inflation is a political liability ahead of the midterms?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a great asset, more inflation.

What a stupid son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: By the way, the president later called and apologized to FOX's Peter Doocy, who asked the question. Doocy said it was a nice call.

But whether it's the White House or your house, the frustration and concern over higher prices is real. You feel it firsthand, maybe in transactions you make every day. So it's tough for a good headline, like low unemployment, stock market rebounds, to outweigh that direct effect.

Let's bring in a professor of economics and public policy at the University of Michigan, Justin Wolfers.

And, Justin, the stock market gets all the headlines, but it is just a piece of the economy. So explain why this market roller coaster, what it means for Main Street.

JUSTIN WOLFERS, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Well, the markets are definitely really volatile right now. But that volatility is really just a reflection of reality, which is, it's hard to know what the future holds right now.

So, on the one hand, large parts of the economy seem to be getting back to normal for the first time in two years. On the other hand, Omicron has caused massive disruption and dislocation over the past few months.

And none of us really know how much that's hurt the economy and how much it'll turn out to be a hindrance through 2022.

CABRERA: So do you expect more volatility in the coming weeks, months? And what's your advice?

WOLFERS: Look, the real volatility is about the volatility each of us is feeling in our lives. So the anxiety you're feeling in your heart is the same thing that's driving the anxiety on Wall Street.

In terms of thinking about your financial future, my advice to your viewers is just tune out. You don't need to follow stocks over the next month or two, unless you have got a couple of million you need to manage. Have another look at it in a couple of months, because riding every up and down over the next few weeks is going to cause you nothing but heart palpitations.

Focus on the big picture, which is what you're trying to do? And for most families, that's save for retirement.

CABRERA: And let's talk about mortgage rates, because this really impacts a lot of people, right? Whether you're buying or you're selling, right now, rates are the highest they have been in two years. First-time homebuyers already contending with a seller's market, supply extremely tight.

Where is the housing market headed?

WOLFERS: Well, so mortgage rates are tough right now. They're going to be on the way up as the Fed starts to tighten interest rates.

But realize mortgage rates and interest rates more generally are going to rise because inflation is rising. And think about inflation as a two-edged sword. On the one hand -- and this is the part we all focus on -- inflation undermines your purchasing power. But on the other hand, we have many decades of experience to know that, when prices rise, wages tend to rise in order to keep up.

And so hopefully, at the end of the day, if your wages manage to keep up with prices, then there's not going to be too many effects for most families.

CABRERA: Will the rate hikes eventually help cool off demand?

WOLFERS: Well, that's -- there are two reasons you might hike rates. One is, you want to cool off demand. And that's part of what's going on.

The other is what really matters for the economy is what we call the real interest rate, which is the interest rate after inflation. Now, because inflation has gone up, if we want to keep the real interest rate where it's at, then that means that the Fed is going to have to hike nominal interest rates, the ones you read about in the newspaper, just to make sure we get the same real effect at the end of the day.

CABRERA: So what key economic indicators, more broadly, are you watching right now to determine how much pain we're in for?

WOLFERS: The difficult thing is that, over the next few weeks, we're going to be getting economic data which is backward-looking. It's going to tell us about December and January.

And we know that December and January, well, they were pretty terrible months because of Omicron. And so hold your breath, because you want to wait a month or two to see how the economy's turning out, out the other side.

[13:05:12]

Now, here's something you will not often hear from an economist, a little bit of optimism. Remember, unemployment is low. Most people who want a job can find a job. Those are really the important things for most families' finances. So there are real risks around things like inflation and mortgage rates and the like.

But if you can find a job, at least that's going to help you keep on keeping on.

CABRERA: Absolutely.

Justin Wolfers, always good to have you here. Really appreciate your expertise. Thanks.

WOLFERS: My pleasure, Ana.

CABRERA: To the pandemic now and some big vaccine news today, Pfizer saying a clinical trial of their Omicron-specific vaccine is officially under way.

This announcement comes as new daily cases in the U.S. hover over 700,000. Also, in Israel, health advisers are recommending a fourth vaccine dose for all adults there. This is a significant move, when you consider the U.S. relied heavily on Israeli data to support the need for that initial booster dose.

Let's bring in CNN's Elizabeth Cohen for the latest on both.

First, Elizabeth, what is Pfizer saying about this new trial?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Pfizer is saying that they're conducting a trial of their Omicron-specific vaccine.

In fact, they have already started manufacturing the vaccine. Now, this trial won't last as long as the ones that we saw in 2020, because they're going to be looking for different things.

So let's take a look at what they're doing. So they're going to have, they said, up to about 1,400 participants. One group of them, they have already had two doses of Pfizer before this trial. And they're going to give those folks either one or two Omicron doses, so a vaccine specifically tailored to Omicron.

The second group, they have already had three doses, in other words, two doses and a booster. They will give those folks one regular dose, in other words, a fourth dose, or give them an Omicron dose and see what happens. A third group, they're unvaccinated, they have never had any shots. And they're going to give those folks three regular -- three Omicron doses to see what happens to them.

They're going to be looking at immune responses, whether it's safe, whether it's tolerable. It's a little unclear how useful this vaccine will be. By the time they get it out, it's likely that Omicron will have sort of done its damage to most of the country.

So the question remains, well, maybe it'll come back, and then the vaccine could be useful for that. Now, Ana, you also talked about Israel. A group of Israeli vaccine advisers -- and the Ministry of Health usually listens to them quite closely -- they're recommending fourth doses for all adults in Israel.

They say this is based on data for Israelis 60 and older who've been getting fourth doses for a number of weeks now. Let's take a look at what they found for this older group. They looked at more than 400,000 people ages 60 and over. And they found that the fourth dose provides more than three times the protection against serious illness compared to people who didn't get a fourth dose and doubles the protection against infection.

Now, the Health Ministry in Israel has not yet said, all right, let's do it. So this is -- the Israelis are not getting their fourth doses yet, unless they're over 60. There are some questions. Just because it looks like the fourth doses helped older people, will it help younger people, or are younger people fine without it?

In Israel, they often just sort of move ahead with these things, and then analyze the data in retrospect -- Ana.

CABRERA: Yes, different than what happens here in terms of the process in the U.S.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you for that.

And joining us now is Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, board-certified internal medicine specialist and viral researcher.

Dr. Rodriguez, let's start with Pfizer's Omicron-specific vaccine trial. The experts tell us we may be passed this Omicron surge in the next few weeks. So, is a specific vaccine for Omicron going to be too late?

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: You know what, Ana. It may be a day late and a dollar short, because this surge is already -- it's already passing.

But just like the flu vaccines, you can only work with the data that you have, and the most changed variant is the Omicron. So you have to sort of planned for that one and hope that just making a vaccine against that one will give you a large protection against the future variant.

Remember, it's already changed to Omicron. So the changes that could happen may only be very small. Again, this is, and I hate to say it, not a guessing game, but a smartest scientific data game, and we can only work with the data that we have today.

CABRERA: So, do you think if this vaccine is then authorized, the Omicron-specific vaccine, that that would then be the new booster shot?

RODRIGUEZ: Probably. It probably will be the next new booster shot.

But, again, we don't know. This happens, again, every year, for example, with the flu. You have the best scientific information of what may be coming. And, sometimes, you hit it an 80 percent. Sometimes, the virus is much smarter than us, and it mutates to something that the vaccine doesn't work very well against.

[13:10:13]

CABRERA: Health advisers in Israel say they have this data that shows a fourth vaccine dose provided people with more than three times the level of protection against serious illness.

And it also doubled the protection against infection. Dr. Fauci told me yesterday here in the U.S. we're still waiting for more data to determine if and when a fourth dose is necessary.

Why would these countries be on such different timelines?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, you know what? First of all, we need to take a deep breath about this.

And one thing about the Israeli government and what they have been doing with COVID, they have been ahead of the curve. So, I have to give them kudos for that. But one thing that we know, right now, in the United States, if you get the three vaccinations, your chances of dying, going to the hospital is vastly removed.

So we have to work -- decreased. So we have to work with that information. Again, Israel right now is seeing a huge surge. I think they have around 200,000 new cases per day. So I think they are at high alert, and trying to sort of head off the avalanche before it gets critical.

So they're in that critical position. And I think that's causing them to move a lot more quickly. I think, right now, the data that -- the information that people need is, three vaccines, and you're going to be highly protected against getting sick and dying from COVID.

CABRERA: Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, always good to have you here. Thank you.

RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.

CABRERA: Let's take a step back right now, because the average number of people with COVID dying every day is on the rise again, surpassing the peek from the Delta surge. Nearly 2,200 Americans right now are dying from COVID every day, adding to more than 850,000 total COVID- related deaths in the U.S. since the start of the pandemic.

And according to the CDC, roughly three out of four deaths are people who are 65 or older. And something we have known, the vast majority of these deaths are entirely preventable.

Here's what we have learned. Unvaccinated people are 68 times more likely to die from COVID than those with three doses of an mRNA vaccine, Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, so two doses and that booster.

This is important; 68 times is not the same as 68 percent. For example, if you took your yearly salary and multiplied it by 68, think about how much of a difference that would make in your life. The average American makes $51,000 a year. Multiply that by 68, you're a millionaire three times over. Multiply $51,000 by just 68 percent, that's a nice 36K bonus.

I think everyone would rather have seven digits in the bank.

New warnings, more weapons and not a lot of budging. The tensions between Russia and Ukraine are rising, as the United States commits more American troops and weapons to help Ukraine defend a potential invasion. How does this end?

Plus, conspiracy theorist and far right radio shock jock Alex Jones just revealed that he spoke with the January 6 Committee. And he says they had a lot of his text messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:45]

CABRERA: The U.S. is placing up to 8,500 troops on heightened alert for possible deployment to Eastern Europe.

Concerns remain high that a Russian invasion of Ukraine may be imminent. The Pentagon says they are notifying troops and their families about the potential move, but no final decision has been made just yet.

President Biden met virtually with European allies yesterday for more than an hour to discuss options. And in an exclusive interview with CNN, Ukraine's foreign minister warned Ukraine needs to be at the table when any big decisions are made.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: If anyone makes a concession Ukraine behind Ukraine's back, first, we will not accept that.

We will not be in a position of a country that picks up the phone, hears the instruction of the big power and follows it. No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Let's get right to CNN senior international correspondent Sam Kiley in Ukraine and our Nic Robertson in Moscow.

Sam, what more are you hearing from Ukrainian leaders today?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, it's very interesting.

As Clarissa Ward was interviewing the foreign minister of Ukraine here in Kiev, just a few hours after that, you had the German chancellor and the French president meeting. And they had a press conference in which a lot of the talk was about diplomacy, about trying to talk their way out of it, not quite appeasement, but definitely indicating, whilst they were in lockstep with NATO, perhaps yet more of this French idea that they want an independent European foreign policy from NATO, not perhaps the time to be doing it.

And this is also very much a position of the Ukrainians. You heard from the Ukrainian foreign minister there. And he insisted, furthermore, in that interview that appeasement was not the way to go. This is how he put it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KULEBA: Well, if we learned anything since 2014, is that it's a flawed logic to handle President Putin from the perspective that let's do nothing in order not to make him angry. No, this is not how it works.

[13:20:00]

Strength, resolve, deterrence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILEY: Now, one of the indications of perhaps a lack of strength coming from Ukraine's allies is the United Kingdom, United States, Germany, and Australia all ordering -- and Canada -- all ordering a downsizing of their embassies here, sending home nonessential stuff, families being allowed to leave, indicating a degree of nervousness among those countries.

And this was counteracted, if you like, by President Zelensky and many of his ministers coming out, saying, calm down, saying to their own people here in Ukraine, now is not the time to worry. We don't think invasion is imminent. Everybody needs to come down.

They also have just taken another consignment of U.S. weapons, which -- militarily, which, given that they include the Javelin anti-tank weapon, will be reassuring to them, Ana.

CABRERA: Nic, is there any sense that Putin's options are narrowing, and that he may actually back down?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: This is a situation where it seems that Putin intends to be the last one to blink, that Russia is willing to hold out, that they are willing to go all the way and create a maximum amount of pressure, so that European nations and the United States, along with them, partners at NATO, would say, OK, what's more important to us, our lives to get committed into a fight over Ukraine or a NATO principle that Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to join NATO?

I mean, this seems to be the direction that Putin is headed in. Certainly, that's what you hear from Russian analysts who are perhaps closer to the Kremlin than analysts elsewhere in the world. Putin wants to be the last one to blink.

We heard from Dmitry Peskov, his spokesman today, saying that the door for diplomacy is still open. It's open. They're just waiting for these written responses from United States and NATO to Russia's security proposals, or depends, depending which way you look at them. Russia calls and proposals. And then they can continue talking.

But, from Russia's perspective, it is NATO and the United States that are increasing the tensions by the talk of deploying 8,500, or the possibility of deploying 8,500 U.S. troops to bolster NATO's eastern allies. So this is a situation at the moment where, from the Kremlin's perspective, they have just got to sit tight and continue their military buildup and wait for the other side to back down.

CABRERA: This is a situation where every move matters. We're all watching very closely.

Thank you, Nic Robertson, Sam Kiley, for your reporting.

And joining us now is Max Boot. He's a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a columnist for "The Washington Post."

Max, you have a new op-ed in "The Post" arguing the U.S. can't afford to leave Ukraine and Europe at Putin's mercy. I think some Americans are wondering, but how does this impact my life? Max, make the case for why the average American should care about the outcome of this international crisis?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, we have cared about the fate of Europe for a long time, Ana, ever since World War II, and we did not care enough about the fate of Europe in the '20s and '30s. And you can see where that got us.

I mean, I think U.S. presidents going back decades have recognized that we have a major stake in keeping Europe as free and secure as possible. Right now, the European Union is the third largest economy in the world, one of our major trade partners, and the largest concentration of democracies in the world.

And Ukraine is on the outer edge of Europe. It's a pro-Western democracy. It wants to be part of the West. If we just allow Putin to get away with invading Ukraine, that is going to be very bad news for other countries in Europe, and it's going to be bad news for the United States and the international rule of law more generally.

Other countries, like China, are watching what's going on. And if we want to deter China from attacking Taiwan, we'd better make sure that Putin pays a massive, massive price for any attack on Ukraine.

CABRERA: Members of Congress are actually getting phone calls encouraging them to side with Russia because they're watching right- wing media and people like Tucker Carlson saying this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: All of them are promoting war against Russia on behalf of our new and deeply beloved ally the government of Ukraine.

Vladimir Putin is our most dangerous enemy, they scream. We can't let him hurt Ukraine. So it turns out Russiagate was actually more effective even than we realized. The Steele dossier has been debunked. But, in Washington, the theme remains in force, Russia, Russia, Russia. Russia is bad.

REP. TOM MALINOWSKI (D-NJ): My district director came to me and said: I just spent an hour on the phone with like four people telling me that they'd watched Tucker Carlson last night, and why are we going to be going to war for Ukraine? Russia is making reasonable proposals for peace. And we should just do what Russia wants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Max, your response?

[13:25:01]

BOOT: I mean, Tucker is utterly shameless.

If he had any capacity to feel any shame, he should be embarrassed by what he just said, because he is basically repeating rank Russian propaganda. Why are we standing up for Ukraine against Russia? Because Ukraine is a pro-Western democracy. Russia is an anti-Western, anti- American dictatorship, which has attacked its neighbors, including previously invading both Georgia and Ukraine.

They have committed heinous human rights abuses in Syria, and they have attacked the United States. Remember, they attacked the 2016 election and helped to get Donald Trump elected president. So, Russia is working to undermine American power, whereas all Ukraine wants to do is to be left alone to live in peace and freedom and security.

So, to my mind, that's really a no-brainer that the United States would support the victim of aggression, rather than the aggressor.

CABRERA: Max Boot, thank you so much. Appreciate your perspective.

BOOT: Thank you.

CABRERA: Just into CNN: Right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones says he met with the January 6 Committee.

What he's revealing about that interview and the evidence they showed him -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)