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Interview With Former Senior White House COVID Response Adviser Andy Slavitt; Russia Tensions Rising. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 25, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:33]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. Thank you for joining us.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

Today, weapons and security equipment from the U.S. arrived in Ukraine. The supplies landed just hours after President Biden put about 8,500 U.S. troops on heightened alert, all signs of the mounting fears that a Russian invasion is getting closer.

BLACKWELL: The Kremlin said putting troops on alert is further escalating tensions in the region, despite the fact it's Vladimir Putin who has positioned more than 120,000 forces along Ukraine's border.

The head of NATO told CNN that he is hopeful diplomacy will prevail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: It still is a diplomatic way out, but that requires that Russia de-escalates and is ready to engage in good faith, in political talks with NATO and NATO allies.

And whether Russia is willing to do that, that remains to be

NATO will not deploy NATO combat troops to Ukraine. But we need to be sure that there is no misunderstanding about our readiness, our commitment to protect and defend all allies, especially in the eastern part of the alliance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN international correspondent Sam Kiley is in Kiev.

Sam, how are Ukrainian officials responding to these latest decisions and movements?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're very delighted to see more arrival of weapons, very important weapons too, the Javelin anti-armor weapon. That comes on top of previous supplies from the United States and, about 10 days ago, similar supplies of armor-killing weapons from the British too.

These sort of tactical, nonstrategic weapons that would be very useful if the country were to get invaded. They have more than 220,000 soldiers now under arms in the regular forces in the Ukraine. So they are better set. But they couldn't, in any long-term sense, resist Russian aggression.

But it's this Russian aggression that has caused the increase in security at the U.S. Embassy, more U.S. Marine Corps personnel being brought in as the U.S. and others are downsizing.

CAMEROTA: I'm so sorry to do this, if you could just stand by for a second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... along the entire Belarus border.

And I have made it clear to -- early on to President Putin that, if he were to move into Ukraine, that there would be severe consequences, including significant economic sanctions, as well as I would feel obliged to beef up our presence, NATO's presence, NATO's presence in -- in the eastern front, Poland, Romania, et cetera.

And so -- but I see -- I was watching one of you on television pointing out the fact -- and I think you have got it right, whoever it was. I'm embarrassed. I don't remember who -- saying that this is all Putin. I don't even think his people know for certain what he is going to Do.

QUESTION: Would you ever see yourself personally sanctioning him if he did invade Ukraine?

BIDEN: Yes.

QUESTION: You would?

BIDEN: I would see that.

QUESTION: What would it take to trigger the deployment of the 8,500 troops that you have put on high alert? And what's your message to those forces that are on high alert?

BIDEN: Those forces on high alert are -- they're part of a NATO operation, not a sole U.S. operation.

And I have made it clear to President Putin that we would be -- we have a sacred obligation, an Article 5 obligation, to our NATO allies, and that if, in fact, he continued the buildup and/or was to move, we would be reinforcing those troops.

And I have spoken with every one of our NATO allies in person -- or not person -- virtually. And we're all on the same page. We have got to make it clear that there's no reason for anyone, any member of NATO to worry whether or not we would -- we, NATO, would come to their defense.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: May I ask you about what -- when you will make a decision about deploying those troops? What will lead to that?

BIDEN: Well, it depends.

What would lead to that is what's going to happen, what Putin does or doesn't do. And I may be moving some of those troops in the nearer term, just because it takes time.

[14:05:00]

And, again, it's not provocative. Is just exactly what I said, is that, as long as we have to reassure -- if you notice, you don't see a lot of concern in terms of their security of our -- and of our NATO allies in Western Europe.

But, in Eastern Europe, there's reason for concern. They're along the Russian border. They're on the Belarus border. So everyone from Poland on has reason to be concerned about what would happen and what spillover effects could occur.

We have no intention of putting American forces or NATO forces in Ukraine. But we -- as I said there are going to be serious economic consequences if he moves.

QUESTION: Can you tell me whether you think, sir, that the risk of an invasion is increasing or decreasing or steady just as it has been these recent days?

BIDEN: I will be completely honest with you.

It's a little bit like reading tea leaves. Ordinarily, if it were a different leader, the fact that he continues to build forces along Ukraine's border from Belarus all the way around, you would say, well, that means that he is looking like he's going to do something.

But then you look at what his past behavior is, and what everyone is saying in his team as well, as everyone else, as to what is likely to happen. It all comes down to his decision.

Look, let me conclude by saying there will be enormous consequences if he were to go in and invade, as he could, the entire country, or a lot less than that as well, for Russia, not only in terms of economic consequences and political consequences, but there will be enormous consequences worldwide.

This would be the largest -- if he were to move in with all those forces, it would be the largest invasion since World War II. It would change the world.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you guys. Thanks, guys. Thank you, guys. Let's go. Thank you, guys. You guys, come on, let's go. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

BIDEN: There's not going to be any American forces moving into Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right, President Biden there making a few remarks while he's in a shop there in Capitol Heights in Washington, making it clear that, one, there will be no U.S. troops there in Ukraine, no NATO troops as well.

But what he said was, I think, most important here is that there could be some troop movements in the near term. Again, we will not be going to Ukraine, Sam Kiley, as we come back to you, but welcome news, potentially, for those NATO member states in the region who are feeling some acute concern as they're watching the buildup along Ukraine's border.

KILEY: Yes, Victor and Alisyn, these are moves; 8,500 troops sounds like a lot, but on a border like that, they're not the only troops available to NATO.

NATO has large numbers of troops already in Eastern Europe. They have been themselves within NATO bolstering particularly the Baltic states. But, yes, it's absolutely clear that the message coming from the United States in lockstep with NATO is that we will reinforce -- and the United States has already said to other partners, particularly with the rapid reaction force that could number some 40,000 that could be pushed forward to that eastern flank to reassure those nations, as the president pointed out, that are anxious about these muscle moves coming from Russia.

If you recall, at the beginning of this crisis, there was 100,000 troops on the eastern border of Ukraine. You have now got many tens of thousands of more troops are now in Belarus with S-400 surface-to-air missiles that can take down American aircraft at a range of 150 miles, exercising, in inverted commas. You have got the Russian Navy exercising off the Baltic coast.

These are very anxious times for those East European nations. Very important that they feel reassured, so that they hold the line, in their view, against Vladimir Putin, who will be looking for those little chinks of light and differences between NATO partners and other European nations to hope to exploit in the coming days and perhaps weeks -- Victor, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK. Sam Kiley, thank you very much for the reporting.

Let's bring in now retired Army Brigadier General Peter Zwack. He served as the senior defense attache to the Russian Federation from 2012 to 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea. And his book "Swimming the Volga" is about his time in pre-Putin Russia. Also with us is Andrea Kendall-Taylor. She's a senior fellow and director of the Transatlantic Security Program at the Center for a New American Security.

Great to have both of you here.

So, General, let's just talk about what we just heard from President Biden there. He said that he wanted to know that, yes, there would be significant sanctions leveled on President Putin if he were to go into Ukraine, including he would consider sanctioning Putin personally.

[14:10:03]

Is Vladimir Putin afraid of stricter U.S. sanctions?

BRIG. GEN. PETER ZWACK (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Thank you for having me. Interesting question.

I don't know if afraid is the word, but certainly sanctions, hard sanctions, on the Russian and the Kremlin leadership, the oligarchs that are, if you will, part of the leadership that is leading, if you will, to a brinksmanship situation, as the president said, that we haven't seen in Europe since before World War II, is serious.

And for the Russians, I think they're on a precipice. And I don't know what they will do. And I think most of us will say that. But if they go, those sanctions and the diplomatic censure, and, hopefully, it goes into the United Nations General Assembly, it puts pressure on the leadership. It puts pressure on the supporters that kind of can turn this locomotive back, because, if they go, not -- there will be possibly, probably tens of thousands of people that die.

It will be completely chaotic and enormously dangerous, with risk of spread. And our NATO allies and friends in the region do need assurance that, if this does spill over, that we are all linked in. Nobody wants to a conflict. We don't. NATO doesn't. I don't even think the Russians do.

But I worry that they're boxing themselves diplomatically into a cul- de-sac where they either, OK, we have made our point, or they're going to double down. And I worry about the double down scenario.

BLACKWELL: Andrea, let me come to you with a point that the general just made there, is that reassuring NATO allies that, if this spills over into their states, NATO member states, that they have the backing of NATO through Article 5, of course, the backing of the United States.

What's the potential for that to happen. And describe for us, help us understand that acute concern, that fear in those neighboring countries that that's possible here.

ANDREA KENDALL-TAYLOR, CENTER FOR A NEW AMERICAN SECURITY: Yes, so I think, well, first of all, it's a good move that the United States has put our troops on high alert, as has NATO. I think that the we should be more forward-leaning and actually move to deploy those forces to those front-tier states, because, to your point, if Russia escalates in Ukraine, there is a very real potential that conflict could somehow spill over and affect NATO member states.

So you could think of numerous scenarios. Just off the top of my head, if Russia goes in and Ukrainian forces and some Ukrainian fighters are forced to retreat to positions and were to take up positions in countries like Poland or Romania and attack from there, that obviously has implications for NATO, if there's errant shelling that hits Romania and Poland.

So you could think of numerous ways, I think, that fighting in Ukraine could potentially spill over. And so it really is important, I would say, that the United States should lean in now to preposition those forces, so that we are prepared for those types of outcomes, and I would say also, very importantly, to show alliances resolve so that Putin doesn't have any questions about testing any NATO member state.

It's really important now that we're working to ensure that any conflict stays contained to Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: I mean, it's hard not to see it, General, as an escalation of tensions, obviously.

Are there still diplomatic off-ramps that Putin could take?

ZWACK: Yes, and it's really primarily -- it's going to be Vladimir Putin's decision. And he is the uber decision-maker in Russia.

He gets lots of advice. I think he's got a lot that's driving him. There's this Cold War baggage. It's the breakup of the Soviet Union exactly 30 years ago, and a lot of -- and the whole Ukraine-Russia history, but this -- but he's taking them to the edge. And his leadership is with him.

I'm not completely convinced that the Russian people fully understand what's going on when they really get down into the details. One other point.

I listen sometimes Russian media. The narrative there is that you have got 110,000 Ukrainian soldiers on the border of the Donbass, Eastern Ukraine, and they're ready to invade. That stokes things up. Now, there's a lot of rhetoric. There is a diplomatic off-ramp. People are talking.

The Russians have made their point. And they can go and back off and work those points. But using coercive, aggressive military force in the scale that we haven't seen in decades is wrong. And it could end up badly for everyone, including the Russian Federation.

[14:15:15]

BLACKWELL: Andrea, let me get one more into you.

What we just heard from the president moments ago was that NATO allies are all on the same page. Are they? I mean, we heard from Sam Kiley that Putin is looking for just glimpses of light between them. Is there daylight within the organization, between the U.S. and potentially Germany?

KENDALL-TAYLOR: So I would say that the degree of unity and cohesion among the 30 NATO member states is really remarkable.

And, of course, there's going to be bumps and bruises along the way. But that is to be expected when the allies are putting -- being put to the test the way that they are. I think, if you think back to October, when the United States started warning about unusual military activity on Russia's board -- on Ukraine's borders, we didn't have a common threat picture.

And since then, the allies have forged that common picture. We have coordinated on potential responses to the whole spectrum of Russian actions. NATO forces are now at a higher readiness. So, I think this is really remarkable.

And I would wager to say that I think that has taken Putin by surprise. I think, when he did this, he was betting on a United States that's distracted at home and wanting to focus on China and betting that there would be tensions and strains in the alliance. And yet here we are.

So, I think we're in a pretty good position.

BLACKWELL: All right, Andrea Kendall-Taylor and Brigadier General Peter Zwack, thank you both.

KENDALL-TAYLOR: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: All right, police are investigating after anti-Semitic flyers were distributed in neighborhoods across the country. We will tell you how local leaders are responding.

That's next.

CAMEROTA: And monoclonal antibody treatments have been touted by Florida's Governor Ron DeSantis to treat COVID, but, according to new guidance from the FDA, these don't really fight the Omicron variant.

So, now what?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:21:28]

CAMEROTA: Police departments in South Florida are investigating anti- Semitic flyers that were found in several residential neighborhoods over the weekend.

Miami Beach police say they have collected more than 200 of these disturbing flyers.

BLACKWELL: Miami Beach Mayor Dan Gelber called out the hateful propaganda and announced stepped-up security at synagogues and houses of worship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN GELBER (D), MAYOR OF MIAMI BEACH, FLORIDA: You can't sit idly by just assume it's just innocent -- just sort of harmless stupidity and idiocy. It's hate.

And let's call what it is. It's hate. If you're dealing with somebody who is willing to in the dead of night drop hundreds of these hate- filled flyers in front of people's homes, are they willing to do something else?

We immediately put our synagogues, all of our houses of worship on alert. We sent more police patrols in the area, simply because if you look at what happened in Texas recently.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: He mentioned Texas. Similar flyers were found also in Denver and San Francisco over the past 24 hours.

Andy Slavitt, let's bring him in, former senior adviser to the Biden administration COVID response. He is one of the health officials named on those anti-Semitic flyers.

Andy, good to see you.

First, your reaction to your name being on these flyers and what you think about the broader invocation of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism in this disinformation campaign that we have seen for some time now?

ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER FOR COVID RESPONSE: Well, it's good be on.

Yes, I live in California. And we saw those flyers a couple of weeks ago here. And I have friends in other parts of the country that have as well.

And, look, I wish I could tell you that I was shocked. I just wasn't. It was just -- it felt like nothing new. I think hate travels much more costlessly these days. And it has over the last number of years.

And I think there's a broader permission structure in place. And it happens online. And, unfortunately, it happens here in real life. And I can only believe that people mean what they say. These people are anti-Semitic. They hate other people.

And they believe there's something at the root of this. So I think we're wise to take it seriously. And it's always important to be reminded how much hate is still out there.

CAMEROTA: Andy, I'm sorry. We're all sorry that you have to deal with that hideousness in the middle of all of this.

Yesterday -- well, today -- actually, OK, yesterday, the seven-day average of deaths, American deaths from COVID was 2,200 Americans. I think, because we feel like maybe we're turning a corner, we don't report this as much as we used to. But that's a staggering number, 2,200. And so that, of course, begs the question of, what's happening with therapeutics, and are they working?

And so this also dovetails with what we heard from the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, who is basically clamoring for more of the monoclonal antibodies. But there's a problem, which is that they don't seem to be working. So let me play for you what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): This is something that they claim shouldn't be used because we have Omicron. And what we would say in Florida is, we have had people use it, and we have had good results.

It's not 100 percent. We understand that, but you also don't even know when someone goes in whether it's Omicron or still the Delta. Yes, mostly in Florida, it's going to be Omicron at this point, but it's really a reckless decision to be able to take this option away from patients.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:25:03]

CAMEROTA: OK, so, Andy, what's your response to that?

And do the monoclonal antibodies work with Omicron?

SLAVITT: Well, unfortunately, they don't. The ones that he's requesting don't. And he should know that.

But this is consistent with the kind of quack armchair medicine that politicians have been practicing throughout the pandemic, because, of course, they know better, and they're recommending recipes that online podcasters and others are recommending.

But the reality is, 2,200 people dying every day, and almost all of them have not been vaccinated. So, if Ron DeSantis cares, Ron DeSantis will talk about why he needs to get a booster, why he probably has gotten a booster and hasn't talked about it, why people in the state of Florida and around the country should get boosted, that it will protect them.

And he's choosing to fight a battle on something that, sadly, we have lost in our arsenal for now. The monoclonals will hopefully be updated to work again in the future. But, for the moment, why doesn't he follow the science, instead of pandering to his relationship with Regeneron, which I think is what he's doing here, and just being contrary in a way that attracts attention?

BLACKWELL: You mentioned losing something in the arsenal.

So let me come to this. We now know that the Biden administration is withdrawing the vaccination and testing regulation for larger businesses. Of course, that's after the Supreme Court blocked the mandate of one or the other for large businesses.

I know that you were very supportive of this mandate and others and trying to get the tens of millions of eligible holdouts to get vaccinated. Now that it's off the table, what's the backup? What's the next plan to get those folks to get the shots?

SLAVITT: Well, I think most of us believe that, if you go someplace where you're forced to be, like your place of work, and it's a factory or a hotel where you're cleaning rooms -- forget people like me, who have the luxury of working in our homes -- that you should have a right to a healthy environment, and that your employer -- if the Supreme Court won't do the job, well, then your employer, whether it's Marriott or Walmart or anybody else, should make sure that, if you're required to go to work and be there all day, that it's safe.

And that can happen a number of ways. It could happen to people if are vaccinated. It could happen if people are masked reliably. Testing can play a role in it. This is kind of absurd that the Supreme Court didn't think that people in this country have a right to a safe workplace, that OSHA can't enforce it.

But, look, we have got to go with the best we have. States, local governments and employers need to take this seriously to protect people.

CAMEROTA: Andy Slavitt, always great to talk to you. Thanks so much for your time.

SLAVITT: Thank you both.

BLACKWELL: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell talks to CNN about his strategy to win back the majority in the midterms. Is he aligned with former President Trump?

We have got details.

CAMEROTA: And things are only getting worse for British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

London police say they are now investigating parties at Johnson's official residence, 10 Downing Street, for potential breaches of COVID lockdown rules.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)