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Russia Tensions Rising; Interview With Sen. Mazie Hirono (D- HI); Stephen Breyer Officially Announces Retirement. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 27, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But, under federal law, it's not about actual loss. It's about the amount diverted.

So, here, we're dealing with $300,000, even if it was really $150,000 that he took.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Yes.

AZARI: So, with the $300,000, you look at the sentencing guidelines. He's looking at two or three years, potentially more...

CABRERA: OK. We got to go.

AZARI: ... because of the sophisticated way he committed the crime.

CABRERA: Sara Azari, thank you so much.

That does it for me. I'm going to hand it off to Victor and Alisyn right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. It's good to be with you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

President Biden will soon make his first Supreme Court pick. Today, Justice Stephen Breyer officially announced he will retire after 28 years on the nation's highest court at the end of this term.

Now the question becomes, who will be Justice Breyer's replacement? President Biden says he will reveal his choice by the end of February, and that the nominee will be a black woman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The person I will nominate will be someone of extraordinary qualifications, character, experience, and integrity, and that person will be the first black woman ever nominated to the United States Supreme Court.

It's long overdue, in my opinion. I made that commitment during the campaign for president, and I will keep that commitment.

In the end, I will nominate an historic candidate, someone who is worthy of Justice Breyer's legacy, and someone who, like Justice Breyer, will provide incredible service on the United States Supreme Court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Breyer's announcement today takes his relationship with the president full circle, in a way. Then-Senator Biden presided over Breyer's confirmation hearings in 1994.

Let's go now to CNN White House correspondent M.J. Lee.

M.J., the president, he made it clear that he's not chosen his nominee to the court yet. So what happens now?

M.J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: That's right, though it is clear that the search has already begun.

Choosing a person to fill a vacancy on the Supreme Court is, of course, one of the most important things that a U.S. sitting president can do. And now, for President Biden, there is this added layer, his commitment to making history by appointing a black woman, the first black woman to the Supreme Court.

We also just got a little bit of a sense of what we might expect to see just in the next couple of months in terms of the timeline of President Biden giving himself this self-imposed deadline of around the end of February. That is when he would like to publicly announce his nominee to replace Justice Breyer.

Now, on the one hand, there was, of course, real gravity to this event that President Biden had with Justice Breyer, of course, Biden himself saying this is one of the most important, biggest responsibilities that he can do as president.

And, on the other hand, there was also this sort of levity and almost a tone of optimism when President Biden and Justice Breyer were speaking, President Biden on the one hand saying that he sees Justice Breyer as a model public servant at a time of great division, and also saying that he wants to name someone who is going to reflect Justice Breyer's sense of decency.

And then when it came time for Justice Breyer to speak, he talked about the future of the country. And he said that he is optimistic. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN BREYER, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: It's an experiment that's still going on.

And I will tell you something. You know who will see whether that experiment works? It's you, my friend. It's you, Mr. High School Student. It's you, Mr. College Student. It's you, Mr. Law School Students. It's us, but it's you. It's that next generation, and the one after that, my grandchildren and their children.

They will determine whether the experiment still works. And, of course, I'm an optimist, and I am pretty sure it will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: And speaking of optimism and decency, President Biden saying that he is wanting to consult with many people as he decides who he is going to replace Justice Breyer with.

Washington has been so mired in gridlock recently. He made a point of saying he will want to consult with senators on the other side of the political aisle. So, that is sort of an unusual tone of partisanship, bipartisanship, rather, that we heard from the president at this very important moment -- guys.

CAMEROTA: You're right. That is noteworthy.

M.J. Lee, thank you.

BLACKWELL: And joining us now, Senator Mazie Hirono from Hawaii. She is on the Judiciary Committee, which, of course, will hold the confirmation hearing.

Senator, welcome back. Let's start here. We know that there is...

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Good to be with you.

BLACKWELL: Good to have you.

There is this call coming up to talk about the timeline of confirmation. The president said the nominee will be named sometime within the next month.

What can you tell us about how quickly after that nominee is named that you could get the confirmation through?

[14:05:06]

HIRONO: Oh, our Judiciary Committee will operate expeditiously as we have been with all the other judicial nominees by President Biden.

I'm looking forward to this confirmation process.

BLACKWELL: Do you expect it will be as quick as the Amy Coney Barrett confirmation?

(LAUGHTER)

HIRONO: Well, I don't see why not.

But we will move forward expeditiously. And, by the way, I was so delighted that Justice Breyer referred to the Gettysburg Address and reminding all of us that, yes, we are still in an -- what is it, a democracy, and that all men and women are created equal.

BLACKWELL: An experiment, yes.

HIRONO: It's an experiment, yes. It's an experiment that is still becoming, and it's up to us to make it happen.

BLACKWELL: So, on that point, as we watched the outgoing justice make those remarks, we heard from the president that he will be looking for someone with extraordinary qualifications, character, experience and integrity.

He said it will be a black woman. What are you looking for? Is there a specific type of experience you're hoping for this nominee?

HIRONO: What I have always looked for in all of the judicial nominees, because these are lifetime appointments, is someone who can be fair and impartial and not having an ideological axe to grind, which was mainly the kind of nominees that President Trump sent to us, including, by the way, as far as I'm concerned, the three Supreme Court nominees, or now justices.

BLACKWELL: All right, so let's talk about what we're hearing from Republican leadership ahead of this nomination.

This is from Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. He says that: "Looking ahead, the American people elected a Senate that is evenly split at 50/50. To the degree that President Biden received a mandate, it was to govern from the middle, steward our institutions and unite America. The president must not outsource this important decision to the radical left. The American people deserve a nominee with demonstrated reverence for the written text of our laws and our Constitution."

Your thoughts?

HIRONO: Well, that's rich coming from a person who very much supported President Trump's outsourcing his Supreme Court nominees to the Federalist Society, a pretty conservative far right organization.

What I'm looking for in the Supreme Court is fair even-handedness, an adherence to the rule of law and precedent, which, by the way, this court in too often 6-3 decisions reflects their bent toward the right. And, therefore, it's not the kind of court that I think reflects the diversity of our country.

And that is why this nominee is going to be so important, a black woman. About time, past time. And she will reflect the diversity of our court by providing much more diversity to the highest court in our land. BLACKWELL: Let's stay on Mitch McConnell, because the judges and

justices that you say that he ushered through during the Trump administration, that was, of course, when he was the majority leader. Now he's -- his party is in the minority.

And there are, I'm sure, Democrats wondering if there's a way that he can block, hold this seat open, delay it past the midterms. Do you see that possibility from the Republicans?

HIRONO: Well, he may be trying to come up with something, but at least he doesn't have the excuse that we should wait for a presidential election, because we just pretty much just had one.

So I'm looking to make sure, though, that all of the Democrats who voted unanimously for all of President Biden's judicial nominees, my expectation is that there will be strong Democratic support for whoever the Supreme Court nominee is.

And it would be great if we could get some Republicans to be open- minded about it and support someone who can be fair and even-handed and impartial on the Supreme Court.

BLACKWELL: Yes, of course, we know that at the top of the list or near the top of the list is Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, who was just confirmed in June, I believe it was, with three Republican votes, Murkowski, Collins and Graham.

Is there anything that suggests now that they could reverse course and say, yes, I supported her for the appellate court, but the Supreme Court, no?

HIRONO: If Judge Brown is the candidate, I certainly hope that the three Republicans will continue to support her, but you never know.

It is really critical, in my view, that all of the Democrats will continue their support for President Biden's judicial nominees. And I want to thank Justice Breyer for his advocacy for decades on behalf of voting rights, of reproductive choice and health care support.

And that's the kind of justice that I hope will -- well, I know that President Biden will nominate. And I hope that the Republicans can see their way to support such a justice.

[14:10:05]

BLACKWELL: All right, Senator Mazie Hirono, thank you for your time.

HIRONO: Thank you. Aloha.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's bring in CNN senior political analyst Nia-Malika Henderson, CNN political commentator and former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent, and former federal prosecutor Harry Litman, who helped prepare Justice Breyer for his confirmation hearings in 1994.

Great to see all of you. Charlie, I want to start with you, because we just heard from the Democratic side, from Senator Hirono. But I know that you think that it wasn't a great idea for President Biden to lead with the notion that he wants a black woman for this position. Why not?

This is what -- I mean, obviously, President Reagan did this in 1980, where he talked about how he was going to find a woman to put on the Supreme Court. How is this different?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it's totally appropriate. And I sympathize. I think it's appropriate to put an African-American woman on the bench. I think that's fine.

I think it's just better to lead with, we're going to have a process, we're going to welcome all applicants, people of all genders and races. And then, after you go through that process, then nominate an African -- a highly qualified African-American woman.

I just think it looks better that way, because it basically told everybody else, don't bother applying. That's just more of a procedural thing with me. I just think that's the better way to do it.

Having said that, I think the president is going to get a victory here in terms of getting an African-American on the bench.

BLACKWELL: I don't know, Congressman. The first 108 white men who were appointed to the Supreme Court wasn't enough of a message of, don't bother applying?

DENT: No, I -- my point is, I think it's good that he's going to nominate an African-American woman. I just would have set the process up in such a way that you welcome all applicants, then interview them all, then nominate an African-American woman.

I just think it's better to proceed that way. And in terms of diversity on the court, I hope the president nominates someone who's maybe not from an Ivy League school. I think eight out of the nine are all from the Ivy League, Harvard and Yale. I think Amy Coney Barrett is the only one who is not.

I mean, let's talk about diversity in that sense too. There are a lot of good lawyers in law schools out there who apparently don't get a whole lot of consideration for a Supreme Court nomination. This has been a pet peeve of mine for some time.

CAMEROTA: Nia-Malika, obviously, Charlie is not a sole -- a lone voice in the way he wishes that this were done a little differently. Your thoughts?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You know, listen, it would be great if we lived in an America that was colorblind, in that certain people didn't get advantages, and other people were disadvantages.

But that's not the world we live in. This, obviously, was a campaign promise from Joe Biden in the South Carolina primary. It was sort of a political promise. And so he's making good on it. I think it's actually great that we have a very diverse field of African-American women candidates from all sorts of different backgrounds that we're talking about.

I mean, if you think back to the last administration, I think 85 percent of the folks that Trump appointed were white; 25 percent, I think, were women. So I don't know if Charlie thinks that 85 percent of the applicants who were white were the most qualified, and that there was sort of an open process for this.

There isn't. I mean, that's just sort of the reality. So I'm not as bothered by it in the way that Charlie Dent is.

I do think he does make a good point, though, about the diversity in terms of the public school background diversity of law students. Oftentimes, we do think of diversity just in terms of race and gender. But there are all sorts of ways to look at diversity. I think that's one of the reasons why you have got a judge from South Carolina, Michelle Childs, who is being pushed by number of folks as a candidate that might add more diversity to the Supreme Court, in addition to being black and female.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Harry, as Alisyn said at the top, you helped Justice Breyer prepare for his confirmation hearing in the 1994. I wonder what you thought as we watched the justice, comfortable, kind of speaking off the cuff, leaning on the podium today announcing his retirement.

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Somewhat professorial, you might say, which I think is his personality, even though he styles himself a pragmatist.

And he announced in '94 that the measure of law should be what it does for ordinary people. Here's what. I thought I saw a kind of sober contrast, even though he was upbeat, called himself an optimist. In 1994, he said, where but in America can you be sure, in 100 years, you will have a free and fair election for president?

That is kind of ironic now. And what he said -- he quotes the Gettysburg Address, saying, we are now engaged in a civil war to see if this nation or any nation so conceived can last.

I thought it was a very kind of telling -- even while he delivered it in an upbeat way, telling indication of the change in the political culture since he was nominated.

[14:15:10]

CAMEROTA: Yes.

Harry, I want to stick with you for one more second, because you tweeted that you do not believe this will be a particularly bruising confirmation battle. And I just want to play for you something that one of our CNN contributors, Scott Jennings, who knows Mitch McConnell very well, has worked with him for many years... LITMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: ... said yesterday on our program that I think flies in the face of that. So listen to this.

LITMAN: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: My political advice is, there ought not be one Republican vote for this. And, furthermore, I think they ought to treat the president's nominee with the same level of respect that Brett Kavanaugh was treated with and what Amy Coney Barrett was treated with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Would you like to amend your opinion?

(LAUGHTER)

LITMAN: Not at all.

Look, it's a lot of talk. You also heard Hawley saying stuff. But those numbers, as Charlie just said, look to a Democratic victory. What McConnell doesn't want to do is fight a long fight and lose. He would like, rather, Biden to take his victory lap and then go back to pillorying him on the economy and COVID.

They don't have the numbers here. Manchin and Sinema have never departed. And they have a chance at some Republicans. There will be nasty words thrown around, but I don't think a real prospect of a loss here. And that will affect the whole campaign, as it were.

BLACKWELL: Nia, Breyer's confirmation was 87-9, Scalia 98-0, Ginsburg 96-3.

The Supreme Court confirmation votes now are close to, if not -- maybe this will happen to -- be the first time -- on party line. Why? Why is this happening increasingly?

HENDERSON: Increasing partisan ship obviously in Washington, very stark dividing lines in terms of the issues.

I mean, you had Donald Trump come into office or campaign trying to be president saying he wanted to appoint somebody that would overturn Roe v. Wade. So, the political issues very, very stark, and so you have the nominees, the folks who end up on SCOTUS, ended up sort of reflecting those partisan divides.

And I know this is something that the justices don't like. Stephen Breyer particularly talked about this, not wanting to be seen as a political body, but it is a political body. Listen, I mean, there are sure -- I'm sure years in the past the Supreme Court might have been a much more united body. But, listen, those times in many ways weren't good for black people.

They weren't good for women. They weren't good for gay folks either. So, now I think you're moving forward to a situation where the Supreme Court is going to be much more diverse. It's going to stay essentially ideologically the way it is now, but it'll look much more like the country.

CAMEROTA: Hey, Charlie, very quickly, will Biden's pick get any Republican support?

DENT: It may. If it's Judge Jackson, I think it'd be hard for those three who voted for her previously to vote against her.

I do -- I would not count on Republican support. But I hope that he nominates a highly qualified person. And I think, if that woman is qualified -- I'm sure she will be -- that Republicans should vote for her, regardless of their ideological differences.

CAMEROTA: Nia-Malika Henderson, Harry Litman, Charlie Dent, thank you all.

LITMAN: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: Well, the Kremlin says that Vladimir Putin is not rushing to judgment on the West's written responses to Russia's security demands, but also warns that major concerns were not addressed.

CAMEROTA: Plus, China is telling us to stop interfering with the Winter Olympics in Beijing.

We have more on what that means next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:23:00]

CAMEROTA: President Biden will speak with the Ukrainian president this hour.

The Kremlin says it is not satisfied with the U.S. and NATO's written responses to their security demands. A spokesman for Vladimir Putin says the Russian president will not rush to judgment while he analyzes the responses, but added there are few reasons for optimism.

BLACKWELL: Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that they failed to address the key concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): There is no positive reaction on the main issue in this document.

The main issue is our clear position the inadmissibility of further expansion of NATO to the east and the deployment of strike weapons that could threaten the territory of the Russian Federation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joining us now to discuss this and more, CNN political analyst and "Washington Post" columnist Josh Rogin and CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. He's also the White House national security correspondent for "The New York Times."

Welcome to you both.

Josh, let me start with you and these written responses now handed over to Russia. What was the point of these documents? They knew what they would say. They weren't going to reach their demands. Was this just a way to delay a debate the West as intransigent?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you're absolutely right, Victor. This is a kind of Kabuki diplomacy. Everybody knows what the parts are. But yet they have to slowly play them out anyway.

And that has a function for each side. For Putin, he can say that he's trying to avert the crisis, even though he might be lying. For the United States and its allies, they can say, hey, we tested Putin, and we did everything we could.

But as you rightly point out, there's a risk here, because, right now, Russia isn't ready to invade Ukraine, but, in a couple of weeks, they just might be. So maybe he's just tapping us along until he's going to invade anyway, in which case, we're wasting a lot of time and energy.

Nevertheless, we got to do it, meanwhile, build up deterrence and hopefully hold the allies together at the same time.

CAMEROTA: That's really interesting.

So, David, if this was all just a stalling tactic, what is Putin stalling for? Is this about the Winter Olympics in Beijing or something else?

[14:25:04]

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It could be two things. Alisyn.

As Josh suggested, he may not have his forces all in place. He's also got some weather issues here. To make this invasion really work, he's got to go across frozen ground with really heavy weaponry, tanks, personnel carriers, and the ground isn't fully frozen yet, which is why, in addition to having a lot of American strategists in the middle of this, we have a lot of American meteorologists in the middle of all of this as well.

But the other element of this may be that Putin wants to make a show of going the extra mile on diplomacy, and then say the West just is not willing to recognize what he himself said in -- last summer, which was that he views Ukraine as a part of Russia, ethnically, culturally.

And, of course, we view Ukraine as a separate country with a seat at the United Nations and its own democratic government. BLACKWELL: David, let me stay with you on this conversation happening

between President Biden and President Zelensky of Ukraine.

There's a disagreement on the urgency, I'd say. The White House says that an invasion is imminent. The Ukrainians say, no, it isn't. The White House, they pull out diplomats out of Kyiv. The Ukrainians say that was unnecessary.

Try to reconcile that. I know that the Ukrainians don't want to panic Ukrainians. What do you think they need to do in this call today?

SANGER: Well, it would help if they got on the same page. They're working from common intelligence gathered by the United States, by Britain, by other members of NATO, and some provided, I'm sure, by Ukraine itself.

As you suggest, Victor, the Ukrainians don't want anybody to be panicked. They don't want their currency to tank. They don't want their stock markets to tank. They don't want to see people flowing out of the country.

On the other hand, the United States has an interest in raising the alarm level, because that's how you hold the other allies together and send stronger messages of deterrence to the Russians. But it is a little bit strange to have the country that is the target of this potential invasion be the one that saying, oh, we have been under threat for a long time.

They have been, but not with more than 100,000 troops across three different borders.

CAMEROTA: Josh, beyond Russia, there seems to be tensions ratcheting up with other U.S. foes. Just some examples, China, as you know, they have their -- they have been maneuvering regarding Taiwan. They are saying that they don't like how the U.S. is handling the Beijing Winter Games.

Then there's North Korea, six ballistic missiles they have launched just since January 5. There are things happening in Iran. Is this all of the usual testing that goes on with a new U.S. president? Or is there something particular with the Biden administration?

ROGIN: Right now, Alisyn, I think you're noticing an exactly right pattern, that all the countries in year two -- they spent a year kind of like testing out the Biden people, seeing what they had up their sleeve. And now they're rolling out their own plans.

And this is Putin's plan. Xi Jinping has another plan. The mullahs have another plan. The Taliban have another plan. And because the United States has global responsibilities, we can't afford to pick and choose. Yet here we are in Washington. We're always chasing the shiny object. We're always focusing on the near-term crisis, instead of the long-term strategic competition.

And every administration says they're going to pivot to Asia, and then they get distracted by something that blows up, hopefully not literally this time, on their watch. What the -- if you ask the Biden people about this, they will say, oh, well, yes, we can walk and chew gum. But the fact is that what you're saying is completely right.

Things are getting worse a lot of places. We're in the middle of a pandemic. And the reason that's important to Ukraine is that what happens in Ukraine doesn't stay in Ukraine. Think of the war. Think of the devastation. Think of the economic fallout. It will spread to Europe and then to the world.

And here in America, we can try to hide behind our walls, but that only lasts for so long.

CAMEROTA: Really interesting conversation, guys.

David Sanger, Josh Rogin, thank you so much for all the insight.

ROGIN: Thank you.

SANGER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to this. Stormy Daniels, she is on the witness stand right now. She says her former lawyer Michael Avenatti lied to her and stole money from her.

We have more on her testimony in his trial next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)