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Book Banning Trend Grows; Mark Meadows Aide Testifies in January 6 Probe; U.S. Economy Growing at Record Pace; Russia Tensions Rising; Stephen Breyer Officially Announces Retirement. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 27, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: This is going to be gone by Sunday. So it's really going to be a Saturday, Saturday evening event in towards Sunday.

Here are the tracks. The one to the left, if it hugs the coast, it'll be more inland snow. If it's the one far to the right. Most of the snow will be offshore. But the models are in such disagreement. Boston, sure, you're going to get maybe 20, 30 inches. New York, you're up in the air. And that's the most populated city in the area.

Be prepared for at least six or seven. But we will be watching this in the next couple of days, especially for tomorrow. Just be...

(CROSSTALK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Oh, my gosh.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: We're just sitting here shaking our head.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: We're just bracing.

SATER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

So, Tom, come back to us as soon as you have any more developments or info. Thanks so much for that update.

SATER: We're doing everything we can.

BLACKWELL: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: OK, thanks.

And it is the top of the hour here on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. President Biden was scheduled to speak with Ukrainian President Zelensky last hour, as tensions along the Russian Ukrainian border persist. Sources told CNN that Zelensky is expected to tell President Biden that he's concerned about the rhetoric from the U.S. and other allies about the situation in his country.

CAMEROTA: The United States reportedly made no concessions to Russia in its written responses to the Kremlin's security demands.

And the Russian foreign minister said that there is -- quote -- "no positive reaction" -- end quote -- to the response because it fails to address his government's main concern.

CNN senior international correspondent Sam Kiley is in Kyiv for us.

So, Sam, do we know any more about this call from the Ukrainians?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, no, we don't know any detail yet. We haven't had a readout from that call.

But what -- there are indications of really what the substance of it would be, as Victor was saying there, about some of the rhetoric. Now, we unpick how President Zelensky has been reacting to some of the statements made by the United States and others, particularly the United Kingdom, over the last couple of weeks.

Obviously, he was rattled by the remark made by President Biden when he indicated that there would be a lesser response if there was a lesser an invasion, if you like. The United States has rolled back on that, the United States in lockstep with Ukraine on saying any kind of military action here would be met with massive response.

And that is the position of the rest of Western Europe. But then you have both the U.K. and the U.S. saying that an attack potentially by Russia is imminent. They do not agree with that here in the Ukraine. They say it's not imminent. It's possible. It could be weeks away. And none of their -- none of their intelligence indicates that the Russians are quite yet poised for battle stations.

They're not yet on the front foot, if you like. They're very keen for that message to get across to their fellow Ukrainians, so that they calm nerves, calm the markets, keep people going to work, prevent people from starting to panic.

But then, at the same time, of course, here on the ground, they are training more civilian volunteers for a home guard-type operation, and they are receiving very substantial shipments of weapons, particularly from the United States, which are just steadily flowing in almost every day now, to reinforce the military position -- Alisyn, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Sam Kiley for us there in Kyiv, thank you.

And we just got this in from the Defense Department. They said that the buildup of Russian forces near the Ukrainian border has increased in the last 24 hours.

Let's go now to CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, what do we know about anything from this call and the questions about the president's tone?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course, what the Pentagon just announced, that that buildup is continuing on Russia's behalf, is certainly going to be a major subject in this call.

This is a call that was scheduled to start about 2:00 Eastern. This is something that the White House said was less of any kind of breakthrough that you should expect or any kind of formal offer to be made on the U.S.' behalf, and more of just President Biden checking in with the Ukrainian leader, who we know has his own issues to raise, because he hasn't always been pleased with the language that U.S. officials have used to describe the likelihood of a Russian invasion.

That is something, that the White House has stood by that term imminent, saying that they believe that invasion could happen basically at any time. And, also, they have not been happy with the fact that U.S. officials did evacuate some family members of staffers from that U.S. Embassy in Ukraine.

And so, of course, those topics are on the table. But, really, Ukrainians are seeking for reassurances from the White House to continue this stance of what they have said so far as this Russian buildup has continued.

But the idea that Russia is continuing to build that up shows that they're not de-escalating, and that is what the White House has been aiming for. And so where that ends up remains to be seen, but we are told we will get a readout of that call from the White House once it's over.

CAMEROTA: So, Kaitlan, we watched earlier as Justice Stephen Breyer made it official. He announced his retirement after 28 years on the Supreme Court. And President Biden set a timeline today for naming Breyer's replacement.

So what do we know about how that's going to work?

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COLLINS: Yes, President Biden said he didn't want to take questions from reporters because he wanted this day to be about Justice Breyer's legacy, given, of course, how many years he spent on the court, the time that they spent together, given Biden was the Judiciary chairman when Breyer had that confirmation hearing.

But he did make some news on, of course, the big question, which is who Biden is going to pick to replace him, to fill that highly coveted seat on the Supreme Court.

And he said he plans to name his nominee within the next several weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our process is going to be rigorous.

I will select a nominee worthy of Justice Breyer's legacy of excellence and decency. While I have been studying candidates' backgrounds and writings, I have made no decision, except one. The person I will nominate will be someone of extraordinary qualifications, character, experience, and integrity, and that person will be the first black woman ever nominated to the United States Supreme Court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, Biden reaffirming that pledge he made on the campaign trail.

And he said over the next several weeks that, since he has not made a decision yet, he plans to consult Democratic senators, Republican senators, legal scholars, and, of course, Vice President Harris as well on this issue, as they look.

And we should note that the press secretary did say earlier, President Biden since last year after he took office was already reviewing bios in case of vacancy opened up on the Supreme Court. So it's already a decision that he has been thinking about for some time. Of course, now that changes now that the vacancy is real, and he does have this option before him. And it will be a critical one, of course, for his legacy.

BLACKWELL: Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you.

Let's discuss down with CNN political analyst Astead Herndon. He's a national political reporter for "The New York Times," Risa Goluboff, who once clerked for Justice Stephen Breyer and is now dean of the University of Virginia School of Law, and Ron Brownstein, a CNN senior political analyst and senior editor at "The Atlantic."

Welcome to you all.

Astead, let me start with you. Democrats have the votes to, without Republican votes, confirm a justice. But after McConnell held that seat open after Scalia's death for a year, Democrats are looking with a side eye over at Mitch McConnell to determine if he has some maneuver to keep it open again.

What are we to make of this statement from him saying the president must not outsource this important decision to the radical left? What do you hear from McConnell?

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think that that is a kind of normal state of play from Republicans. They're going to try to make sure they're already framing that argument for their own base.

But from every single -- from every -- from everything that we have seen, it looks like Democrats are going to be able to get President Biden's nominee through. It would be extremely rare for a Democratic senator to go over the choice of President Biden.

We haven't really seen those types of indications yet. But, as you said, Democrats have such PTSD. They such have such trauma of remembering how Mitch McConnell was able to put some -- maneuver away that Merrick Garland choice from President Obama.

And so they won't be counting their chickens before they hatch. But the thing here is, the Supreme Court, the news that's going to come out of them this summer will be about the decisions that they make, the abortion rights decisions, the gun rights decisions.

Even at the end of this term, there are going to be big things that the Supreme Court still has to decide. By the time we get to midterms, that will matter just as much as whoever Biden chooses to be the replacement.

CAMEROTA: Ron, remember the good old days when a Supreme Court nominee used to get unanimous support or close to unanimous support in the Senate from Republicans and Democrats alike?

And now, I mean, of course, that's inconceivable. And it was driven home yesterday when we talked to our friend Scott Jennings, who's one of our CNN contributors, of course, and he knows Mitch McConnell's mind very well, has worked with him, and also gave his advice of what he would say to Republican senators right now.

So here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: My political advice is, there ought not be one Republican vote for this. And, furthermore, I think they ought to treat the president's nominee with the same level of respect that Brett Kavanaugh was treated with and what Amy Coney Barrett was treated with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I mean, basically saying, right, it's payback time. Is that what we're going to see?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think, whether it's in that tone or not, yes.

I mean, Amy Coney Barrett was the first nominee since 1869 that was approved on an accelerated time frame without a single vote from the opposition party. That is the world we are moving toward.

And, in truth, that is the world in which the Supreme Court justices are increasingly kind of showing themselves. I mean, we have seen John Roberts engineer, with occasional exceptions, like the Affordable Care Act, a series of 5-4, now 6-3, party-line, in effect, party-line decisions, in which all the Republican justices outvote all of the Democratic-appointed justices.

So the court behaving in a more partisan manner, even as the process by which they are approved is unfolding in a more partisan manner, it's all moving in the same direction.

One other point, Alisyn, that is worth noting, last week, in the big fight over the filibuster, Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin basically said the standard for overturning these key Supreme Court decisions overrule -- weakening the Voting Rights Act, Shelby County in 2013 and Brnovich last year, should be 60 votes.

[15:10:12]

John Roberts is the only member of that Republican majority bloc who got -- who reached that standard himself with 60 votes for confirmation. And I don't think we are going to see that again for a very long time.

BLACKWELL: Risa, let me come to you.

I watched Justice Breyer's remarks today. And I guess I should not have expected this, but I was expecting reading a statement from a sheet, saying I am proud of my work over the last several decades, and it's time for me to step aside.

He was riffing about the experiment of America and speaking to students.It was very relaxed. I wonder what you took away from what we heard today and what you hope to see in the next justice, considering what the court is losing with Breyer's retirement?

RISA GOLUBOFF, DEAN, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA SCHOOL OF LAW: Yes, I wasn't surprised at all by how he spoke today. It was quintessential Justice Breyer, relaxed, as you say, so human, funny, thoughtful, right.

He is thinking about what he's saying as he's doing it. And I think really the best part is, he is as excited about the role of a justice and the role of the Constitution and the role of the people in the governance of American society as he was when he started.

I mean, he's just joyous about what this process means. And that's not an easy thing to sustain over 41 years as a judge and 27 years as a justice. But he believes in the project. And I think that really came across today. And I think that is a real loss to the court, right? This is someone who is just an absolute statesman, an absolute champion and protector of the court, who is a true believer.

And you saw him genuinely and authentically sharing that passion today.

CAMEROTA: And, Risa, one more question.

I mean, we also have learned, those of us who are not as close to him as you are, over the past 24 hours what a bridge-builder he was behind the scenes. He believed in conciliatory -- the dynamic of working across the aisle.

Is there anyone -- with him gone -- and we don't know who the next nominee will be -- is there anyone else currently on the court who can step into that role? GOLUBOFF: That's hard for me to say. I don't know any of them the way

I know him.

But I think you're exactly right about him. I mean, he takes the process of give and take really seriously. He was at UVA a few years ago giving a speech, and a student asked about this. How do you maintain collegiality? How do you have dialogue across difference?

And he said, you have to start by looking in the mirror. You have to look in the mirror and say, am I listening? Am I ready to come to an agreement with someone else? How do I persuade? I can't persuade unless I'm persuadable too.

And I think that's crucial for him. It's crucial for the court. And it will be crucial for the -- for his replacement as well.

BLACKWELL: Astead, there are some Democrats who were disappointed with the Build Back Better that stuck. Voting rights was stuck, and said this was supposed to be the legislator who knew the Senate for decades who could get this through.

Well, now you have got a former chairman of Senate Judiciary, an opportune time to show that experience. What should we expect to see from the president as this process continues?

HERNDON: Absolutely.

This is a White House that will see this as a chance to put some points on the board, to show a kind of legislative pathway, have some real success in a Hill that hasn't been that nice to them in recent times.

But we also have to show the limits of this too. This is still a White House that is facing incredible headwinds going into the midterm election year. There is that natural resistance against the incumbent party in that first midterm election. There is also a kind of tough economic outlook, the coronavirus.

I mean, this is -- they are going to be asking this appointment to overcome a lot. And so we're going to have a Democratic Party that certainly tries to see this as a chance to deliver on a campaign promise to change the face of the court.

But, at the same time, they will be facing a court that, as Ron said, has already changed itself and a country that is facing such massive challenges that I -- it is unsure whether that knowledge, that Senate Judiciary knowledge that Biden brings, will be able to even overcome this one.

CAMEROTA: Astead, Risa, Ron, thank you all so much for the perspective. Really helpful.

Well, in 2021, the U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate since the Reagan administration. We have more on what drove that growth coming up.

BLACKWELL: And just into CNN: A top aide to Mark Meadows met with the January 6 Committee and did not plead the Fifth.

What he told the panel -- next.

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[15:18:59]

BLACKWELL: We're seeing some strong recovery numbers today.

The latest GDP report says that, in the last year, the U.S. economy grew by 5.7 percent. That's the fastest pace in 37 years.

CNN's Matt Egan joins us now.

So, Matt, that is, as Victor just said, the fastest growth since 1984, when Ronald Reagan was president. So what else have you learned today?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Alisyn and Victor, it's been a while.

The last time that we have seen growth like this, the top movie was "Ghostbusters," the original, and "Jump" by Van Halen was one of the hottest songs, 1984, last time we have seen growth like this 5.7 percent in 2021.

And the economy really ended the year with a bang. GDP rose at an annual rate of 6.9 percent in the fourth quarter. That was triple the pace from the prior quarter. It was actually the second fastest growth of this expansion. Very impressive. And it shows that the economy really entered this Omicron wave from a position of strength, which is great.

[15:20:00]

Now, growth is probably slowing down as we speak because of all these business disruptions. But this is just one more indicator that speaks to a pretty hot economy.

The unemployment rate is down to 3.9 percent. Remember, April 2020, it went up to almost 15 percent. We also saw 4.5 million people quit their jobs in November, many of them because they felt like they could get a better job elsewhere. And wages growing at nearly 5 percent in December, that is a very good number.

But it also speaks to one of the issues here, because inflation is very hot. A lot of times, paychecks are not keeping up with inflation. We saw consumer prices rise by 7 percent in December. We hadn't seen anything like that in 39 years. And that speaks to some of the economic anxiety right now.

Also, there's some anxiety on Wall Street over the Federal Reserve's plans to fight inflation by raising interest rates. We see the market moving back and forth, really volatile swings. The Dow was up by almost 700 points this morning. And as you can see, all of those gains are gone and the market is now down.

So, Alisyn and Victor, 2021 was a great year for economic growth. 2022 and 20223 are going to really be defined by inflation.

CAMEROTA: OK, good to know. Matt, thank you.

EGAN: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: We have some new developments from the select committee investigating the January 6 Capitol attack.

CNN can report that a former White House aide to Mark Meadows spoke to congressional investigators for nearly seven hours. And unlike other Trump era insiders who have stonewalled the panel, Ben Williamson did not plead the Fifth.

CNN congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles is live on Capitol Hill.

So, first, let's start with the significance of Williamson's testimony.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, it's very significant because Ben Williamson was a top aide to the former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.

And, of course, we know the drama that's going on between Meadows and the January 6 Select Committee, where he initially was willing to cooperate, then backed off, and is now in the process of -- could be on the verge of being indicted by the Department of Justice for criminal contempt of Congress because he now refuses to cooperate.

So the fact that Williamson, who is very close with Meadows, was willing to go to the committee, speak to them for close to seven hours, and not plead the Fifth is very significant.

And, also, what we're learning, what he talked about, is also significant. We're told, according to our source familiar with this meeting, that Williamson talked about the effort to get the former president to file that video where he asked his supporters to leave the Capitol after hours of the insurrection of being ongoing, the process behind all of that, also conversations that Williamson had not only with Meadows, but with the former president himself.

Williamson was a key figure in all this. He was in the outer Oval Office a during the January 6 attack. He was someone that worked in the Oval Office during the entire time Meadows did.

I should say in the West Wing, not necessarily in the Oval Office. So he is a key player in all of this. And the fact that he was willing to be forthcoming, not plead the Fifth, and cooperate with the committee could be a key to this committee's investigation, as they try and piece together everything that went wrong on that day and then, of course, who is responsible -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Ryan Nobles, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Now, listen to this.

A Tennessee school board pulls a Pulitzer Prize-winning book about the Holocaust from its curriculum, complaining about foul language and a drawing of a nude woman. The growing trend of what's not allowed to be talked about in schools -- next.

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CAMEROTA: Eighth graders at a school district in Tennessee will no longer read a Pulitzer Prize-winning book on the Holocaust.

The McMinn County Board of Education voted to remove the graphic novel "Maus," saying it should be replaced with another book without content it deems -- quote -- "objectionable." And the board's definition of that is rough language and a drawing of a nude woman.

The author of "Maus" told CNN he is baffled by this decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ART SPIEGELMAN, AUTHOR, "MAUS": The nudity is specifically a small image that has my mother right after having slashed her wrists in a bathtub being found. So it's seen from overhead.

And you can see it's a tiny image. So you have to really, like, want to get your sexual kicks by projecting on it. It would seem like a crazy place to get them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right, joining me now to talk about all of this is the host of "White Flag" podcast and former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh, and Deborah Caldwell-Stone, director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom.

Great to have both of you.

Ms. Caldwell Stone, let me start with you. I think that it can be debated whether or not "Maus" is appropriate for eighth graders. I think that that's OK. Maybe it should be reserved for high schoolers.

But the problem is, is that this isn't a one-off. This isn't an isolated incident. I understand that you're seeing, I think, on a daily basis requests and demands for more censorship.

So, just tell us what you're seeing.

DEBORAH CALDWELL-STONE, DIRECTOR, AMERICAN LIBRARY ASSOCIATION OFFICE FOR INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM: What we're observing is really an unprecedented volume of demands to remove books from schools and libraries across the country.

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