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Tennessee School Board Bans Pulitzer-Winning Holocaust Book; Pentagon: More Russian Buildup in Last 24-Hours Near Ukraine; Sheriff: No Charges in Second Investigation Into Georgia Teen Found in Rolled- up Gym Mat; Court Wraps for Today Michael Avenatti Trial. Aired 3:30- 4p ET

Aired January 27, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

DEBORAH CALDWELL-STONE, DIRECTOR, AMERICAN LIBRARY ASSOCIATION'S OFFICE FOR INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM: I've done this work for nearly 20 years and we've never had a period of time we would receive four, five, sometimes eight reports a day from librarians and educators telling us that a group or a parent has demanded the removal of a book.

And what's really disturbing is that these demands seem to be targeting books that are dealing primarily with diversity -- diverse topics, books addressing the LGBTQIA experience or we're seeing many challenges complaining about critical race theory. But the books that are being targeted are books about the history of racism in the United States and lived experiences of black persons and indigenous persons.

And so, we're really seeing what appears to be a campaign to remove much of the history and voices of marginalized groups in this country right now, particularly those dealing with racism.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Yes, Congressman, I mean, much of this is coming from conservative and Republican quarters. How do you explain it?

JOE WALSH (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Hey, Alisyn this is the new right. I mean, I'm of the right. I suppose this is why I no longer fit in with this Republican Party. But this is -- this is authoritarianism and this is what Trump's right is. Shutting down speech that makes you uncomfortable, banning books that make you uncomfortable.

Ron DeSantis down in Florida, Alisyn, pushing legislation to ban the teaching of race in Florida schools if it makes people uncomfortable. You know, I come from right-wing media. When I was in right-wing media, Alisyn, we'd make fun of and go after people on the left for trying to shut down speech they didn't like. Many of my colleagues would utter searingly under the phrase, facts don't care about your feelings. Now we're seeing this on the right and it's authoritarianism.

CAMEROTA: And Congressman, One more thing, one more sneering criticism that the right likes to dandy about are snowflakes. People's whose feelings are so easily wounded. And this bill that you just talked about, the Ron DeSantis discomfort bill, as is called. Let me read you a portion of it.

It bans public schools and private businesses from making people feel discomfort or guilt based on race, sex or nationality. I mean, this is -- it's so strange, I think, as you point out, Congressman. That this is coming from a Ron DeSantis, and I don't understand, frankly, practically how it can work. How are you ever supposed to shield your children in school from any discomfort?

WALSH: Alisyn, it's the most mystifying thing. But again, I talk to these people every day, Republican voters every day, and they want DeSantis to do this stuff. They want Trump to shut down CNN or do whatever. They want a dictator. They want a strong man to remove things that make them uncomfortable or things they don't like. This is really scary, though, Alisyn. I mean, 1.5 million children died in the Holocaust and these people don't believe American children should learn about the Holocaust.

CAMEROTA: Now, Ms. Caldwell-Stone, I mean, back to that point. You know, history is often not pretty and it often makes people feel uncomfortable. And so, I don't even understand, I mean, what you're on the frontlines of. How are schools supposed to navigate this when a parent says this book made my child feel uncomfortable?

CALDWELL-STONE: Well, in fact, they're not navigating it very well. We may have all heard about the story of the Texas educator who told other teachers that they might have to provide a balance to the Holocaust because of the Texas law that bans the teaching of what's called divisive topics. But in fact, you know, we don't believe that is a valid basis for censorship.

You know, we really can't protect young people from what the realities of the world and we need to learn from history. We need to be able to allow our young people to gain empathy and understanding. How can you not avoid the horrors of the Holocaust without learning about what the conditions were that led up to the Holocaust and the horrors of the Holocaust itself?

[15:35:00]

I mean, "Maus" itself I'd actually argue with you is actually very appropriate for middle schoolers and it's not just my opinion. Educators, other review sources all feel that anyone aged 12 or 13 should be able to handle this book. And the fact that it deals with the realities, that people use profanity or that there are naked bodies. And we have to remember that these are drawings and they're not just drawings of people. They're actually, you know, cats and mouses are used in the graphic novel to represent the individuals that are telling the story.

And frankly, you know, we've heard from students themselves that this book teaches about the Holocaust, circumstances surrounding the Holocaust in a way that's informative, engaging and brings home the real horrors of that time and how it impacted one families life. And that's really what we want for our young people is to help them understand history. To help them develop empathy and understanding and critical thinking skills. And books like "Maus" do this. And reasoning censorship that's based on a few words of profanity or a single drawing denies them that opportunity.

CAMEROTA: Yes, will I defer to you. I mean, you know much better, obviously, than I what is appropriate for eighth graders and if it's being taught and being well received. That's really important. But I just think that the larger point is everything that you've all touched on. This is happening and people are uncomfortable with history and that doesn't change the history. And so, I really appreciate both of you coming in with your perspective and being on the frontlines of trying to fight this. Thank you both very much -- Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Yes, a very important conversation there.

We're following developments out of the Pentagon. Officials there say the Russian military buildup near the border with Ukraine has increased in the last 24 hours. We've got more on that.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby said that Russian forces near the Ukraine border have increased over the past 24 hours and he continued to state that the U.S. believes a Russian invasion of Ukraine is imminent. The Ukrainian President Zelensky is expected to tell President Biden that he has concerns with this type of rhetoric from the U.S. and others during a phone call between the leaders.

CAMEROTA: Former Acting Assistant Secretary for Arms-Control Tom DiNanno, joins us now. He was part of last strategic security talks with Russia under the Trump administration. He's now an adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute. Tom, great to see you. So, as I understand it you were involved in five or six dialogues with Russian diplomats and officials during the Trump administration. What did you learn then that you think could be applied now in this situation?

TOM DINANNO, FORMER ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR ARMS CONTROL: Hi, Alisyn. Thanks for having me. I think we learned a lot. What we learned was we know what the Russians were asking for and they seem to be similar to what they're asking the Biden administration for now.

Very quietly just in January the United States began to send its naval personnel to its missile defense site -- the new missile defense site in Poland. They've continued to complain about U.S. missile defense sites at Deveselu, in Romania. And of course, as we saw in press reports today Sergey Lavrov has aggressively called out that he doesn't want to see the United States develop intermediate range strike systems which, of course, is dripping with irony. Because the Russians broke the IMF treaty, the critical 1986 accord and developed and deployed exactly that type of system.

So, they don't want to see the United States to continue the deterrence posture that the Trump administration implemented, the Obama administration also implemented, and it looks like hopefully the Biden administration will continue to build on.

BLACKWELL: And, Tom, given me your analysis on the two latest developments this report from the Pentagon that there's been a buildup of forces on the border of Russian forces but also, Zelensky asking the U.S. to tone down the rhetoric. He's asked them to tone it down as the forces are building up. Is the U.S. hyperbolic here or is this right on point what you're hearing from the administration?

DINANNO: So, I would encourage the administration to return to the notion of strategic ambiguity, you know, don't tip your hand. And I think maybe they've done that a little bit too aggressively. But I would also point out that in regards to your question about the Pentagon statement, this war in the Ukraine has been ongoing since 2014. 15,000 Ukrainians have died in this war. This is a real shooting war.

So, the invasion has already begun. The question is will they ramp it up? Will it be a gray zone incursion? Or will it be an aggressive conventional move? That we don't know and I would just point those things out.

CAMEROTA: And Tom, but let's talk about that. Do you think from your talks with the Russians, do you think that there are still off ramps here? Because it seems from everything we hear, it seems as though there is an escalation every day. They don't like the written responses that the Biden administration has provided. So, do you see some other off ramp that we can't see right now?

DINANNO: Look, they asked for the exact same thing they asked from Trump. They didn't get the right answers. They waited to see what happened in the election.

[15:45:00]

President Biden won the election. Now they're going back and asking for the exact same things from the Biden administration. I'd be careful of entering into any arms control agreement, any new INF type treaty. We should learn a hard lesson from that treaty violation. These things matter.

The tactical situation in Europe is extremely dangerous because Russia has developed and deployed these intermediate range systems which can also be nuclear tipped. So that's exactly what they don't want.

Again, Lavrov said it in the press today and if they're pressing to not want it, that probably tells you something. Russia has violated with the exception of the new Start Treaty virtually every arms control agreement that was my responsibility at the State Department including the chemical weapons convention. So, I would caution against an arms control off ramp. I think the off ramp is a steady, ongoing development of the deterrence capability so that we could meet our Article 5 obligations to our NATO partners.

BLACKWELL: All right, Tom DiNanno, thank you for the perspective.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Tom.

DINANNO: Thank you, guys. BLACKWELL: A second investigation into the death of a Georgia teen found rolled up in a gym mat closes without criminal charges. We'll tell you how the family is reacting.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: New today, lawyers are planning an insanity defense for that student accused of a deadly school shooting in Michigan. Ethan Crumbley faces 24 charges. The November shooting at Oxford High School that killed four students and wounded seven others.

BLACKWELL: Crumbley was 15 at the time but is being charged as an adult. Now before the shooting teachers had raised some red flags about his behavior. His parents are accused of ignoring those warning signs and they pleaded not guilty to charges of involuntary manslaughter.

CAMEROTA: Now to this, San Francisco police reported an alarming rise in hate crimes against Asians in 2021. The city saw a 567 percent spike. The mayor said she is heartbroken, frustrated and embarrassed.

BLACKWELL: Earlier this week the Alliance for Asian American Justice announced a federal hate crimes lawsuit against the city and county and district attorney's office on behalf of victims of anti-Asian hate crime who feels that he has not seen justice. The organization wants to institute procedures to protect the community and ensure equal protection for justice.

CAMEROTA: Now to this horrible story in Georgia. The family of Kendrick Johnson is demanding answers after a new investigation into their son's death ended without charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH JOHNSON, FATHER OF KENDRICK JOHNSON: If it takes ten years, 11 years to find out the truth, we will be steadfast in finding out the truth of what happened to Kendrick. We will prove that this sheriff's department once again lied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: 17-year-old Kendrick Johnson's body was found nine years ago in a rolled gym mat at a South Georgia high school. Investigators ruled it was an accident but Johnson's family says that classmates killed their son and that law enforcement and school officials covered it up. And last March after years of pressure the sheriff reopened the investigation, and now more than ten months later he's closing it without charges, calling it a weird accident and nothing criminal happened.

I've covered this for nine years now. I spoke with Mr. Johnson last night. He said that there was no reason for the people he says who covered up the initial crime to now uncover it nine years later. They've never believed the basic elements of this story, that their son, who I should say has 19-inch from shoulder to shoulder, did this. Let me hold this up. This is a drawing. They say that that hole at the top of that rolled gym mat was 14 inches wide. How did he climb down, and think he would get down six feet, grab his shoes and get out? They just don't believe that.

There was an autopsy that found bruising on the jaw in this 16-page report. The sheriff here, it seems as political as it is a report about the facts. He says that he does nothing to refute that finding but mentions that there's another doctor who called that doctor in an article a liar. He suggests the U.S. attorney was on a witch hunt.

So still so many questions for this family, you heard from the father there that they're going to continue to get answers here and they believe their son was killed.

CAMEROTA: I mean as you point out, that accident doesn't even make sense. How and why would he crawl down into a gym mat by himself, and not be seen by anybody and die in there. None of that makes any sense. But I appreciate you talking to the dad and bringing us the latest on all that.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Now to this, President Biden says he will have a nominee to replace Justice Breyer on the Supreme Court by the end of February. More on that, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me begin by recognizing --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:00]

BLACKWELL: Well, court has concluded for the day in the Michael Avenatti criminal trial. Today he began cross examination for his client, Stormy Daniels, just minutes before court ended for the day.

CAMEROTA: Now, there are no cameras allowed in the courtroom, but we do have a transcript of their interaction, so I propose a dramatic reading --

BLACKWELL: I'm into it.

CAMEROTA: OK. I think I should be Michael Avenatti and you should be Stormy Daniels for obvious reasons.

BLACKWELL: Naturally. Yes,

CAMEROTA: Very good.

Ms. Daniels, good afternoon. BLACKWELL: Good afternoon.

[16:00:00]

CAMEROTA: Do you have a single text message, email, voice mail or recording that says I would not take any money from your book deal, yes or no?

BLACKWELL: No. And scene.

The judge then dismissed the jury. That was it for today. Avenatti's cross exam of Daniels will continue on Friday. He asked for six hours for that cross examination.

CAMEROTA: I wish that there were cameras allowed in the courtroom, because both of these people, Stormy Daniels and Michael Avenatti, are tough customers. Neither of them are easily intimidated. And I just think it will be fascinating to watch them interact with each other.

BLACKWELL: Now how does this go on for six hours, though? That's what I'm concerned about but we will see.

CAMEROTA: How will you and I do a dramatic reading for that long?

BLACKWELL: No, we'll only do 20 minutes or so.

[16:00:00]

All right, let's move on to this. NASA says that it's monitoring a rogue SpaceX rocket booster that could crash into the moon in early March and leave behind a crater. The rocket has been floating around since its launch back in 2015.

CAMEROTA: Look, all I want to say is pick up your space junk. OK, space debris, bad.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: That's it.

BLACKWELL: "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.