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Pentagon Considers Moving U.S. Troops Already Stationed in Europe; Biden Hasn't Made Supreme Court Pick, But Already Facing Resistance; Widow of NYPD Officer Killed in the Line of Duty Speaks. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 28, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:32:22]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: We're learning new details this morning about the written responses that the U.S. sent to Russia's demands. The U.S. ambassador to Moscow, John Sullivan, said this morning that there were not a lot of surprises in the White House document but he did note that it did contain areas of at least potential progress that both countries could be interested in. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN SULLIVAN, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: We have addressed the possibility of reciprocal transparency measures with the Russian government, including on offensive weapons, systems in Ukraine, as well as measures to increase confidence regarding military exercises and maneuvers in Europe.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're still waiting for the Kremlin's official response to that document but foreign minister said he sees no room for compromise on Russia's central demand that NATO pull out of Eastern Europe. That's been deemed a non-starter by the administration. John Sullivan reiterated the White House is repeating warning that Russia will face massive consequences if it further invades Ukraine.

Joining me now to discuss, former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, John Herbst. He now serves as a senior director of the Atlantic Councils Eurasia Center.

Ambassador, thanks for taking the time this morning.

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: My pleasure.

SCIUTTO: So here we are weeks into a massive Russian military buildup around Ukraine. Dire warnings from the White House. Is Russia, in your view, more or less likely today to take the next step and invade, further invade Ukrainian territory?

HERBST: It's less likely because they're afraid of the consequences outlined by the Biden administration. Massive sanctions on Russia, perhaps including on Putin himself, increasing NATO's posture in the east and additional arms to Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: So you're saying the policy of deterrence is working.

HERBST: I think it is, although I think it should be stronger.

SCIUTTO: There is discussion, CNN's reporting earlier this week is that the U.S. and a handful of its NATO allies are considering preemptive moves to move more forces to the eastern flank of NATO. The Pentagon's spokesperson -- spokesman Admiral John Kirby was asked about this this morning. I want to play his answer and get your interpretation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: I don't have any imminence in terms of deployment orders from the states. I will tell you, though, you know, you have tens of thousands of troops in Europe, all over the continent, and we are certainly looking at their posture as well and trying to decide whether we need to make that a little bit more forward leaning and whether some of our NATO allies might want some intrinsic, organic U.S. forces that are already on the continent made available to them as well.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Would you like to see a move like that, move more NATO forces to those Eastern European allies who more nervous, frankly, about Russian activity?

[10:35:08]

Do you think that additional deterrence would have value?

HERBST: Those 8500 troops should be sent immediately to Eastern Europe. We can let the Russians know privately that we're happy to pull them back once they stop their buildup on Ukraine's border. If we do that, A, that demonstrates determination and American determination to punish Russia is the most important element in avoiding this invasion, new invasion. But also, Russian military planners who are thinking of invading Ukraine have to worry about those additional forces. So this just complicates the Kremlin's life, which we want to do.

SCIUTTO: If you're correct and Russia does not choose to go forward with a massive invasion, perhaps something short of that, what are the other possibilities that you could see Russia doing inside and around Ukraine?

HERBST: If Putin really wanted to stress the alliance and our relationship with the E.U., he would send Russian troops transparently into the areas Moscow already occupies. There are already Russian troops there now but that's all done secretly. He'd do that transparently. Of course the weaker will in Europe will say, well, we shouldn't sanction Moscow for that, although we absolutely should. And I believe the Biden administration pushed very hard to make sure we do sanction Moscow for that. That would be the smart move by Putin. He can also see Snake Island in

the Black Sea, which will be relatively easy for him to do and perhaps there would not be too many pictures which would excite world attention and enhance the chances of major sanctions.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Regarding Nord Stream 2, this crisis has put further attention on the leverage that Russia has over Europe in terms of gas supply. That supply is something like 40 percent to 45 percent of natural gas. Nord Stream 2, this joint Russian-German project seen as exacerbating that dependence. The Biden administration position is if Russia invades further, Nord Stream 2 is done. But if he doesn't invade further, they still keep that leverage, do they not?

HERBST: Look, I believe the Biden administration made a huge mistake when it coddled on Germany and waived sanctions on Nord Stream 2. We should have put that baby to rest back in the spring but now I'm delighted to see at last Ned Price, the State Department spokesman, said the other day if the Russians go into Ukraine, again, Nord Stream 2 is kaput. That's at least a good thing.

But Nord Stream 2 is a measure for Putin to put leverage, the leverage gas against the countries of Eastern Europe and also increases Russia's influence in Germany which is a very dangerous thing. It's definitely against American interests.

SCIUTTO: The columnist Josh Rogin wrote a piece for the "Washington Post" saying that one thing Russia has succeeded in doing here is for yet another American president who said we're going to focus our resources, attention and power on Asia. Putin has dragged those resources, attention and power back to Europe. In effect, sort of taken the eye off the ball, right, in Asia? And I wonder if you agree with that analysis.

HERBST: Well, it's not taking the eye off the ball in Asia. We still have our eye on the ball. But you're absolutely right, or Rogin is absolutely right that Putin has reminded especially the Biden administration, but also our European allies that NATO is important to stand up against Kremlin imperialist policies. You know, we have vital stakes in Ukraine because Putin's objectives go beyond Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HERBST: The draft documents he sends said he wants NATO to de-arm itself in Eastern Europe, demonstrating again he wants to threaten European security, not just Ukrainian security.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And as always, ask the Ukrainians, as the Estonians, ask the Swedish and others what they want and they want more, not less security.

HERBST: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Ambassador John Herbst, great to have you on this morning.

HERBST: My pleasure. Thank you. BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Jim, we look for good news whenever

we can especially going into a weekend. It was a bit reassuring to hear at least from him.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: That he thinks the likelihood of a major invasion have been lowered a bit by some of the tactics taken by the Biden administration.

SCIUTTO: It is. And he as a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine had been very public in his criticism of the Biden administration for not doing enough is now saying that some of these more recent moves may, in his view, have done enough.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Hopefully diplomacy will continue to work here.

Well, President Biden hasn't selected a Supreme Court nominee just yet but it's already clear that whoever that choice is, she will face pushback from the GOP. We are live on Capitol Hill up next. But first, here's a look at some of the other events that we're watching today.

[10:39:41]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Less than 24 hours later and President Biden is already facing resistance over his potential pick to replace Justice Stephen Breyer on the Supreme Court. Senate GOP members are setting a very high bar for giving their support to the nominee.

[10:45:02]

SCIUTTO: They doesn't necessarily need GOP support if Democrats stick together. Despite how qualified the women are on Biden's short list, a number of Republicans say the possibility of confirming the first black woman to the high court is not enough to sway them.

CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill this morning.

Manu, the simplest question is, does it matter? Right? I mean, do Democrats expect to have their ducks in a row here to pass this even if no Republicans join?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They expect to. Of course, there's a long process that has to play out. Of course there has to be a nominee then there's a vetting process. Questions about how the confirmation process ultimately goes and will they get their members in line with the 50-50 Senate and will there be any concerns about the process, the process being one that which the Democrats want to move quickly.

Majority Leader Chuck Schumer wants to move this in potentially about a month's time frame, a similar time frame as the Republicans employed to get Amy Coney Barrett confirmed to the Supreme Court in October of 2020, just before the November elections that year, but already Republicans are pushing back on that idea. One of them, Susan Collins of Maine, she is a swing vote on this issue.

She said Democrats and the Senate should take its time to vet a nominee. And also Josh Hawley, who's a Republican on the Judiciary Committee, someone who's almost certainly going to oppose whoever Biden supports, told me yesterday it would be a heavy lift to go as quickly as that even though he supported the Barrett timeline and suggested that Republicans should fight this given it is also a midterm election year. They need to show their voters that the Senate is in important because it could determine who can get, whether a Supreme Court nominee could get through.

And in talking to also Republican senators about the short list that is emerging, there's very few that are offering their support for any of the members on these potential nominees on the list. Some contending they're too far left, some contending that they simply cannot get behind anyone here despite the history-making credentials of the first black Supreme Court woman, Supreme Court justice.

So what this ultimately means, guys, is that if there are any Republicans that do break ranks, probably just a handful at most but at the end, does that matter? Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, if those two senators are on board with the rest of the 48 Democrats, that is enough to get this through. At the moment, Democrats are confident that will just happen -- guys.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. The president yesterday saying that he will name his pick by the end of February.

Manu Raju, thank you.

Well, new details this morning about text messages between former White House staffers during the January 6th riot. Former White House communications director Alyssa Farah, who's also a contributor here at CNN, texted the top aide to then Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, quote, "Is someone getting to POTUS? Has to tell to protesters to dissipate. Someone is going to get killed."

SCIUTTO: That aide responded and described the situation inside the White House this way. "Completely insane."

CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joins us this morning.

The consistency here, right, Jeffrey, is that people inside the White House serving this president at the time, one, were panicked about what they saw on January 6th at the Capitol. They weren't playing it down as tourists, right. And two, were trying to get the president to do something and have -- sorry, hold that thought, Jeffrey Toobin. We're going to go back to St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York where the widow of slain officer Jason Rivera is now speaking. Let's listen in.

DOMINIQUE LUZURIAGA, WIDOW OF OFFICER JASON RIVERA: I would say good morning to you all, but in fact, this is the worst morning ever. I can't believe I'm standing in front of thousands of people in a cathedral we planned to visit later this year. All of this seems so unreal, like I'm having one of those nightmares that you never thought you'd have.

Friday morning, we were together, eating breakfast and drinking some Starbucks. Eating was probably our favorite hobby. Maybe that's why we gained those extra pounds. Friday morning began just like every other morning before work. You were always my big spoon. Watching Netflix, YouTube law enforcement shorts, read e-mails and wait for your mom to come home. You packed your book bag because we had to leave before 2:00 and, really, before 2:00 sharp because of your ICO sergeant.

[10:50:06]

You would drive me home and say good-bye with three kisses all the time, and texted me when you were 84. That was our routine. At around 1500, 1515, I receive the BRB roll call text. And through our day, you told me about your jobs until it was EOT.

This Friday was different. We had an argument. You know, it's hard being a cop wife sometimes. It's hard being patient when plans were cancelled or we would go days without seeing each other or when you have to write a report that would take forever because you had to voucher so many things. So you did OT. Or when you had a bad day at work because an EDV drove you nuts. But you always reminded me that it was going to be all right. We were going to get through it.

This Friday, we were arguing because I didn't want you to use your job phone while we were together. You were so mad that you took your LeBron jersey down, gave me your chain and put the lotions I gave you for your ashy hands in the bag and said, here, take them. We left your apartment and because I didn't want to continue to argue, I ordered an Uber. You asked me if you are sure that you don't want me to take you home. It might be the last ride I give you. I said no. And that was probably the biggest mistake I ever made.

Later that day, I received the call I wished none of you that are sitting here with me will ever receive. I had gotten a notification from the Citizen app which was my central and I saw that two police officers were shot in Harlem. My heart dropped. I immediately texted you and asked you, are you OK, please tell me you're OK. I know that you're mad right now but just text me you're OK. At least tell me you're busy.

I get no response. We used to share locations on my iPhone and when I checked yours, I see that you're at Harlem Hospital. I thought maybe you were sitting on a perp, but still nothing. I called and then called again, and then called one more time, and this time, I felt something wasn't right. I messaged PO David and Joe because I know they were your friends from the 32 and I got no response. Then I get a call asking if I'm Jason's wife and then I had to rush to the hospital.

Walking up those steps seeing everybody staring at me was the scariest moment I've experienced. Nobody was telling me anything. Thousands of people were surrounding me and yet I felt alone. I couldn't believe you left me. Seeing you in a hospital bed wrapped

up in sheets, not hearing you when I was talking to you broke me. I asked why. I said to you, wake up, baby, I'm here.

[10:55:04]

The little bit of hope I had that you would come back to life just to say good-bye or say I love you one more time had left. I was lost. I'm still lost.

Today I'm still in this nightmare that I wish I never had. Full of rage and anger, hurt, and sad, torn. Although I gained thousands of blue brothers and sisters, I'm the loneliest without you. I know you're looking at me and beside me telling me I could do this and I'm trying. Trust me, I am. But I didn't prepare for this. None of us did.

Jason and I met in elementary school. All the way up to 8th grade. We had the time of our lives. He was part of the cool kids crew. There was never a dull moment with him around. He was the class clown. Got me in trouble a couple of times. Had our teachers sit us away from each other because we couldn't focus. And we never thought our innocent childhood love would lead us to marriage. Even when we said I do, we couldn't believe we said it.

October 9th was the happiest day of our lives. I know I drove you crazy saying I love you so many times, that you would stop replying, I love you more, but you made me feel alive, you make me feel alive.

And Jason is so happy right now that all of you are here. Through pain and sorrow, this is exactly how he would have wanted to be remembered, like a true hero. Or like I used to call him, Big PO Rivera. You have the whole nation on gridlock. And although you won't be here anymore, I want you to live through me.

The system continues to fail us. We are not safe anymore. Not even the members of the service. I know you were tired of these laws, especially the ones from the new D.A. I hope he's watching you speak through me right now.

(APPLAUSE)

LUZURIAGA: I'm sure all of our blue family is tired, too. But I promise, we promise, that your death won't be in vain. I love you to the end of time. We'll take the watch from here.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I invite all members of the service to pull out and form up outside.

SCIUTTO: Well, Bianna, I haven't heard anything that heartbreaking in a long time. The widow of Slain NYPD officer Jason Rivera there, Dominique Luzuriaga. I mean, just the details, Bianna, of texting him when she heard officers shot and not hearing back and then checking his location and seeing he's in Harlem Hospital. It's a -- and she's so young. GOLODRYGA: And revealing that they had had an argument that day and

she decided to take an Uber home, and he said to her those fateful last words, are you sure I can't give you a ride home, it might be the last one I give you.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: It's just a reminder to cherish every moment you have with your loved ones.

And wow, what a powerful speech we just heard from her.

[11:00:00]

SCIUTTO: Yes. And that standing ovation, a sign of support from all those officers there, goodness, so sad to watch.

Thanks all so much for all of you for joining us today. We do appreciate it.

GOLODRYGA: At This Hour with Kate Bolduan starts now.