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Biden: "Swift & Severe Consequences" If Russia Invades Ukraine; Joe Rogan, Spotify Respond To COVID Misinformation Complaints; NJ Governor Murphy: We're Not Going To Manage This To Zero; British P.M. Johnson Apologizes For Lockdown Parties; Study: Communities Of Color Will Bear The Brunt Of Climate Change. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired January 31, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST & FORMER SPOKESMAN, ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE: Very, very interesting, Alisyn, to see the procedural vote take place. China and Russia blocked the vote. But they got Gabon, Kenya and India to abstain.

And I should point out, I did a bit of gumshoe investigation this morning. And interesting that Gabon and Kenya have both either received or ordered Russian and Chinese vaccines.

So you have vaccine diplomacy in the background working here, too.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: That is very interesting. That is a helpful, interesting perspective that you could provide.

And yet, we're told that diplomacy continues. And so Secretary of State Blinken is meeting with his counterpart. They're still engaging in diplomacy.

We just heard the president saying they're engaging in non-stop diplomacy, they're working, "like the devil," I think I'm quoting him, to improve of the security there.

We know that Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who is beleaguered in the U.K., has his own issues, but he's supposed to be having a conversation with President Putin tomorrow, I believe.

And so can there be other people that can talk Russia off the ledge with this? Will all of this diplomacy around Putin help?

BOCIURKIW: Look, diplomacy is good. I think also the delay in a possible Russian incursion allows the Biden administration to do things like it did today, talk to partners like Qatar for possible LNG exports to Europe.

But I think the only person at this point who could stop Putin is Xi Jinping of China.

The two superpowers have been working much more closely together and aligning their interests but also aligning their longer-term expansionist policies.

In the case of China, of course, Taiwan. In the case of Russia, expanding its footprint there.

The other thing that I'm hoping the West could sort out with Ukraine, as you know, last weekend, President Zelensky gave that bizarre press conference and he had the call with Biden where he basically accused the West of ramping things up too much and causing chaos.

I think the Ukrainians need to get on the same page with the West very, very quickly. Because it also shocked the foreign journalists there.

So --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: What was that?

Just out of curiosity, what you're talking about with President Zelensky, one of the things he said was the image that mass media create is that, we have troops on the roads, we have mobilization, people are leaving for places, that is not the case, we don't need this panic.

He's blaming the media for being hyperbolic. Why is he not on the same page as the Biden administration in terms of their rhetoric?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, well, I guess I have to be careful what I said because, when Zelensky was elected, I was on CNN with Amara Walker saying how great it could be for Ukraine.

But I think Zelensky has surrounded himself with people that are not very bright. The administration is not a war-time administration. But he does have a foreign minister who is very, very experienced.

So he needs to get his act together very quickly because this could cause ill will with allies who have given so much weaponry and so much resources, money to Ukraine.

And President Zelensky has shown that he could be played by Putin. That only happened a few months into his administration.

So people in Ukraine, in the Ukrainian diaspora, are very, very worried about his capabilities right now.

CAMEROTA: Michael Bociurkiw, always interesting to talk to you. Thanks so much for the perspective.

BOCIURKIW: Any time. Thank you.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: A bipartisan group of governors told President Biden that the country needs to move away from the pandemic and ask for guidelines to return to a greater state of normalcy. When do we expect some COVID restrictions to be lifted? We'll get into that, next. [14:33:37]

CAMEROTA: There's a lot going on today. Here's what else to watch.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:38:53]

CAMEROTA: Podcast host, Joe Rogan, promised to try to balance things out on his show after complaints his show was spreading COVID misinformation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE": If there's anything that I have done that I could go better, is have more experts with differing opinions right after I have the controversial ones.

My pledge to you is that I will do my best to try to balance out these more controversial viewpoints with other people's perspectives so we could maybe find a better point of view.

I don't want to just show the contrary opinion to what the narrative is. I want to show all kinds of opinions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Joni Mitchell and Neil Young are two artists who pulled their music from the streaming platform Spotify to protest Rogan's podcast.

BLACKWELL: In response, the company announced that it will add advisories to podcasts discussing COVID to direct listeners to a COVID-19 hub.

Joining us now is CNN medical analyst, Dr. Leana Wen. She is the author of "Lifelines, A Doctor's Journey in the Fight for Public Health."

[14:40:02]

Also joining us is infectious disease epidemiologist, Jessica Malaty Rivera. She signed onto a letter to Spotify about COVID misinformation on Rogan's podcasts earlier this month.

Welcome back to you both.

Jessica, let me start with you.

I want to point out, you're not calling for his show to be canceled or even for the episodes with some of the questionable information to be pulled.

You asked, as part of this group, for clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on Spotify platform.

Does this satisfy that?

DR. JESSICA MALATY RIVERA, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EPIDEMIOLOGIST: Unfortunately, it doesn't fully satisfy.

And I think that the important thing to consider here is that these are plans to initiate these content advisories and update the policies, we have yet to see them roll out.

We have heard anecdotes of several thousand podcast episodes being removed from other violations. We've not seen the list of those episodes or the reasons why they were removed.

I think we're still in a holding pattern to see what the words mean in action.

CAMEROTA: Jessica, one more question to you. Because I personally was impressed with Joe Rogan's statement.

Basically, he was saying, I hear you all, I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm trying to have a compelling conversation.

I'm going to redouble my efforts to have credible voices, maybe I'll put them on right after I have controversial voices. I'm interested in just having these conversations.

Did that -- isn't that what we want from people who spread misinformation to say, you know, I hear you and I'm going to do sort of adjust my behavior?

Did that help satisfy your qualms at all?

MALATY RIVERA: I have a very different reaction than you. I was disappointed with the comments because of some problematic language that continues to be the root of this issue and why it became so controversial.

This is not a matter of differing opinions. When there's scientistic consensus on things as certain as the spike protein is not cyto-toxic, it is not a matter of debate.

And I'm really kind of growing exceedingly exhausted by the narrative of, because science evolves, we should have different opinions on these things.

When there are thing in science that are not narrative, that are provable, and have the required consensus and get consensus because of evidence.

And I think when we continue to make this seem like just another topic in politics, and that you could have subjective understandings of what is proven to be in the peer-reviewed data, that opens up a can of worms.

So I, unfortunately, was not satisfied with his response.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Wen, the response from Spotify, they're going to add the advisories. Are you satisfied with that?

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it is a good thing. I'm glad that Spotify is finally taking some action.

I do think that referring people to trusted sources, like the CDC, to the National Institutes of Health, that would help.

I actually have a slightly more nuanced view in terms of Joe Rogan's response, too, which is I think that in general it is a good thing, as in what should not be controversial and what we should not be debating is the facts themselves.

To Jessica's point, I don't want to be discussing, is this real science or not real science? The facts are the facts and data are data.

But at the same time, there are different interpretations of the same data. And it is a reasonable conversation for experts who disagree on the interpretations to have that discussion on his show.

CAMEROTA: Jessica, that is so interesting to hear your point of view and it is definitely eye-opening.

I think what you hear you saying is that, yes, he could have compelling conversations but when you start to have compelling conversations about controversial medical positions, it comes with responsibility.

And did he say that. I mean, he did say in his statement, look, I don't know how my podcast got so big, I was never expecting this, and I don't know what responsibility I was supposed to have.

I thought that was a funny bit of transparency.

But he does, I think, slowly start to accept, he has a ginormous platform. And when you have the conversations casually, it should come with a huge responsibility.

MALATY RIVERA: It really does. It is an incredible responsibility to have this amount of followers that are committed to listening to him for the several-hours-long episodes that he has with various experts.

Now I agree with Dr. Wen in the sense that there are some things that are not up for debate. I'm not saying it is a black-and-white issue on all things related to COVID. Certainly not.

Especially when you talk about things like people's individual treatment plans or people's bodies response to the virus.

That said, we're not debating things that have already been proven through rigorous clinical trials in that the vaccines are safe and effective.

But to poke holes at that is incredibly dangerous and causes further harm to the public. BLACKWELL: Dr. Wen, let's broaden this conversation. We heard from

governors, at least the White House heard from governors today, who are hoping for some relief, getting back to normalcy.

Listen to a New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy here as numbers are coming down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): We're not going to manage this to zero. We have to learn how to live with this. Please, god, there's not another significant wave. Every time you think you have this thing figured out, it humbles you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:45:03]

BLACKWELL: Now as I say, numbers are coming down. New daily case average is just under half a million cases a day. So still very high.

How do you balance that? Coming off maybe 800,000, down to half a million, should we see some changes in restrictions now?

WEN: Look, Victor, we cannot be living in a perpetual state of emergency.

We have to recognize that we're going to be living with COVID for the foreseeable future. And so there has to be a plan moving forward about, how can we transition back to normal?

Now I'm not saying that we should throw caution to the wind and just remove all restrictions overnight. Because right now, there are many parts of the country that still have overwhelmed hospitals.

But we do see that we're trending in the right direction. And there has to be an off-ramp for many restrictions that people don't want, for example, masking.

It would be reasonable to have a conversation at this point about when can we remove indoor masking, including in schools. For example, if kids are vaccinated, or if there's regular testing, can masks go.

I think that would be really reasonable.

And this really should not be a political issue. Now we're seeing people on both sides treating it as if it is.

We need to have a reasoned conversation, establish the benchmarks for when restrictions could go, with the understanding they may need to come back if we have a new more threatening variant in the future.

But let people live their lives in the meantime and manage their own risks, especially because we have safe and effective vaccines and we know that masking also protects the person wearing the masks, even if others around you are not wearing it. BLACKWELL: National new case numbers are coming down. Hospitalization

numbers are coming down. But those death numbers up. Now, 2,377, seven-day average.

Dr. Leana Wen and Jessica Malaty Rivera, thank you both.

CAMEROTA: Well, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson apologized for having the parties at Downing Street while the rest of the U.K. was in lockdown. He said it is time to, quote, "Look at ourselves in the mirror," after a damning report outlines unacceptable behavior. So we are live in London with the latest, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:53]

BLACKWELL: A report detailing parties at Prime Minister Boris Johnson's residence of 10 Downing Street in the U.K. is out and it is damning.

The report also reveals that some Downing Street staffers felt unable to raise their concerns about poor conduct.

CAMEROTA: After the report was released, Prime Minister Boris Johnson went before parliament, delivering a public apology and promising he will, quote, "fix it."

CNN's Salma Abdelaziz is outside 10 Downing Street.

Salma, how does Johnson propose to fix it?

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN LONDON REPORTER: Victor, Alisyn, I don't know if he can fix it.

If you read through this scathing report, it reads like someone scolding a teenager. At one point, this report says that excess alcohol consumption should not happen at the workplace.

Apparently, people behind me here, who run government, need to be reminded of that.

It outlines failure in leadership, failures in judgment. It says some of the behaviors that occurred behind me here cannot be justified.

The prime minister's response, with yet another I'm sorry.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Mr. Speaker, I get it and I will fix it.

(SHOUTING)

JOHNSON: And I want to say -- (SHOUTING)

JOHNSON: And I want to say to the people of this country, I know what the issue is.

(SHOUTING)

JOHNSON: Yes, yes.

It's whether this government can be trusted to deliver.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABDELAZIZ: It was yet another half apology there from the prime minister who was quick to turn it around and try to defend himself. I get it and I will fix it.

A lot of people think if you're at the head of the government, if you're the one at the head of this government, if you're on top of this mess, you simply cannot get it.

It's not up to the voting public. It will come down to his own party, the Conservative Party. They have to take the steps to push him out of office if they decide to do so.

And, Victor and Alisyn, this is only going to get worse for the prime minister. There's another investigation in place. That one by the police, to see if any criminal offenses were committed behind me.

CAMEROTA: Based on that raucous reaction from parliament, we'll see what they do next.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: It was hard to know whose side they were exactly on.

Salma Abdelaziz, thank you very much for explaining all of that.

[14:54:13]

All right, a new study shows that climate change won't affect everyone equally. We'll tell you which communities will be hit the hardest. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: A new study finds that flooding brought on by climate change will disproportionately hit communities of color.

BLACKWELL: According to study published this morning in the journal, "Nature Climate Change," flooding is only going to get worse in the years ahead.

And neighborhoods where people of color and other minorities live, they will bear the brunt of the damage.

CNN's Rene Marsh has looked into this. She joins us now.

What are some of the specifics in this study?

RENE MARSH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Alisyn, what really sticks about this study are the specifics surrounding who will bear the brunt of the increasing costs here.

The researchers say right now severe flooding disproportionately harms low-income white communities in Appalachia, particularly West Virginia.

But over the next 30 years, this study predicts, with confidence, that the climate crisis will shift and the risk will shift to predominantly black communities, specifically along the Atlantic coast and the gulf coast.

[14:59:58]

Now the author of this study telling CNN, "Not everyone is bearing be same burden here. As flooding patterns shift and climate changes, we're basically telling African-American communities to shoulder greater burdens again."