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CNN Reports, Trump Advisers Drafted Two Orders to Seize Voting Machines; Pfizer Could Ask FDA as Soon as Today to Authorize Vaccine for Children Under Five; Blinken, Lavrov Wrap Up Call After Mixup in Russia's Reply to U.S. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired February 01, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN NEWSROOM: We're reporting this morning on just how far former President Donald Trump went in his attempt to have voting machines seized after the 2020 election.

[10:30:07]

We have now learned that Trump's advisers drafted not one but two versions of an executive order, one directing the Department of Defense to take hold of those machines and the other telling the Department of Homeland Security to seize them

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: All parts and multiple efforts to overturn the election. Multiple sources tell CNN these developments were part of a broader plan here, but a lot more detail than we knew.

CNN Law Enforcement Correspondent Whitney Wild joins us now with more. So, Whitney, we knew about a drafted order for DOD, DHS is new. I suppose the question is, were they shopping around, right? I mean, was he shopping around to see who he could get these through?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, I think that's a completely legitimate question. I mean, were they just looking for an audience who would carry it forward? I mean, that's like the major question that the House select committee is going to want to know answer to. So, let me back up and just give you the nuts and bolts of what we know now.

Multiple sources now tell us there was this second order that, in many ways, reflects that the same purpose as the executive order that would have gone to the Department Justice. This time, it was a memo that would have instructed the Department of Homeland Security to seize voting machines, again, similar to what we've previously reported, was, at some point, floated around the White House that would have directed the Department of Justice to do this -- excuse me, the Department of Defense to do this very same thing. It is unclear who actually put the pen to paper here, of course, and the important thing to remember is this never went anywhere. Neither order was actually issued. But sources do tell us that the idea of seizing voting machines from states Trump lost was the brain child of retired Colonel Phil Waldron and retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn. Both have continued pushing the narrative that the 2020 election was stolen.

Trump's former attorney, Rudy Giuliani, has been spearheading the efforts of the big lie but we've learned that Giuliani approached Ken Cuccinelli, then the second in command at DHS, about seizing machines. And Cuccinelli told Giuliani the department did not have that authority.

Cuccinelli also tells CNN those conversations never materialized into anything, there was never the point of drafting an executive order. Ken Cuccinnelli very clearly trying to distance himself from what is turning into a pretty huge mess.

The New York Times is reporting that President Trump directed Giuliani to reach out to the Department of Homeland Security. Now the House select committee is looking into this effort to draft this executive order, specifically how it began, specifically the roles of Giuliani, the roles of Flynn, the roles of Waldron and former Trump Attorney Sidney Powell.

But the main theme here, and this is the thing the House select committee has always been trying to get to, is who ordered it? Who told who to do it? And so that is the key question. More details coming to light every day.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And can they get witnesses to testify to that? Whitney Wild, thanks very much.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. It is telling that even someone like Rudy Giuliani was warning the president not to go too far, because according to some of the reporting, he may be impeached for it.

Joining us now to discuss is Ryan Lizza, Chief Washington Correspondent for Politico and CNN Senior Political Analyst.

So, Ryan, we've asked this question before, but I think it bears re- asking at this point. In terms of when you think Republicans, Republicans in congress and Republican voters, may start to turn away from President Trump, is it headlines? Is it reporting like this that we will start to see that trend occur?

I'm asking because we've seen members of Congress sort of distance themselves from Trump's statements over the weekend that he would pardon those who participated and were convicted in the January 6th insurrection. And now, there's new A.P. reporting that suggests the 44 percent, now that's not the majority, but 44 percent of Republicans say they don't want Trump to run for president again.

RYAN LIZZA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's such an interesting and important question because what causes Republicans, especially in Congress, reporters are asking them every day about Trump and what causes them to either be ambiguous about what they think of former President Trump or just outright support him is, of course, the ironclad grip that Trump has had on Republican voters.

And we did see -- the polling has been very interesting on this. After January 6th, there was a significant drop and there was that window that opened that a lot of senior Republicans tried to use to sort of get rid of Trump, put him in the rearview mirror, McConnell, Liz Cheney, even Kevin McCarthy for a brief moment. Now, of course, we remember what happened after that, the dynamic shifted, Trump was sort of super empowered, support for him among Republicans shot up. But as you point out, very recently, that has started to change.

[10:35:00]

And I'm not sure what the change is, if it's the sort of continued cycle of outrages and living in the past and re-litigating 2020 where a lot of Republicans are saying, this doesn't seem wise for the future. But we are in a moment here where maybe there's a tipping point that will come where he will lose that grip.

Now, you know, I wouldn't predict that because the bond is pretty strong, and Americans are living in, like, separate media ecosystems. And a lot of his strongest supporters are living on the fumes of his lies, but that has been a recent development that's worth watching.

SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, to be fair, been watching that for a number of years, right? The tipping point hasn't arrived. That's the politics though. Let's talk about the potential, I suppose, more substantial result of all of this. I mean, you have court and legal investigations, right, in Atlanta and elsewhere, his businesses, his attempts to interfere with the election.

With the January 6th committee, if they bring this all together, they have witness to corroborate further Trump's efforts to overturn the election in a whole host of ways. Let's be frank, these executive orders just being one part of that. What is the result? I mean, the Senate already tried him and missed an opportunity, didn't have the votes, right, to bar him from running again. So, what's the end result beyond a potential political outcome of the January 6th committee investigation?

LIZZA: It's a great question. Because, remember, Mitch McConnell, the most -- probably the most important speech during impeachment was his speech, when he said I'm not going to vote to indict, or sorry, to convict, but he suggested this isn't the end of the legal remedies to deal with Donald Trump. And he strongly -- he made the point essentially that the criminal justice system could deal with Donald Trump. And we're seeing that and those gears continue to go to work.

But, you know -- so, I think that's the most likely avenue, because, frankly, the January 6th committee is doing a very thorough and important job. That report is going to come out before the midterm elections, but most people think the Republicans are going to win the midterm elections, that it's just a normal first year midterm of new presidents is a backlash against that presidents. And if the Democrats put out this report, it's extremely damning about President Trump, it becomes a bit of a partisan football, as these things always do. And then, as Republicans win the midterms, you could really easily see Republicans say, you know what, that issue was litigated, it was central to the midterms and the public awarded, you know? So, that's -- I think Democrats have to decide how much do they want to make issue a referendum.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It's an argument has been made before, like, for instance, with Trump releasing his taxes. He never did it. And then after he was elected, some folks say, well, that's already been litigated in the election. So, you'll see that again. Ryan Lizza, thank you so much.

LIZZA: Exactly.

GOLODRYGA: Thanks, Ryan.

LIZZA: Thanks, guys.

GOLODRYGA: Up next, Pfizer expected to seek emergency authorization as early as today for its COVID vaccine for kids under the age of five. This is some welcome news for millions of parents. It could change the game for them, really.

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[10:40:00]

GOLODRYGA: Some welcome new news this morning. Sources telling CNN that a COVID vaccine for kids under five years old could be available by the end of the month. Pfizer is expected to ask the FDA to authorize its two dose regimen for children ages six months to five years as early as today. And if authorized quickly, shots could be going into little arms within weeks.

I want to bring in Dr. Megan Ranney to discuss this further. She's the associate dean of Public Health at Brown University. Dr. Ranney, we've had a lot of troubling news the past few weeks. This news is indeed welcome. Talk about the impact that this can have on millions of children and their families.

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, ASSOCIATE DEAN OF PUBLIC HEALTH, BROWN UNIVERSITY: I can't overstate how awaited this news has been by parents and families of those kids who are under five. I have heard from so many people across the country that they feel like their kids have been left out. These are the kids who are the most difficult to mask, who suffer the most from being isolated, but who are still at risk of COVID.

Now, COVID is, of course, not as serious in those littles as it is in older adults, but it is still among the top ten causes of death for children in the United States and getting those vaccines in arms is a critical part of helping both to prevent COVID among little kids and helping to move us all a little bit closer back to normal. I will give the caveat, of course, Bianna, that I have not seen the data. If I were at the FDA, I would be looking both to make sure that the vaccine is safe and that it is effective, that it protects those kids from COVID. And I hope the FDA will do its due diligence to make sure the vaccines do do both for those six month to the five-year- olds.

GOLODRYGA: Of course. And as welcoming as this news is, we have sort of plateaued, it appears, at a pretty low rate in terms of the vaccination of children that we've seen in the U.S.

[10:45:04]

And I would say this is a global phenomenon. I was surprised at who few Israeli children are vaccinated as well. Why do you think that is given the amount of time now that we've seen? Remember, many parents said, I just I want to give it some time to see how effective this is and if it's safe. Well, that time has come and gone and yet still so many children remain unvaccinated. Why do you think that is and what can be done to reverse that?

RANNEY: So, I think it's two things. The first is, as a parent myself, I understand that you do want to make 100 percent sure that anything you do to your kid is going to make them safer, that it's not going to put them at risk. And so I understand people's hesitancy, the desire to see the data, to make sure that these vaccines are safe.

So, let me be very, very clear. The vaccines for the 5 to 11-year-olds are absolutely 100 percent safe both in short-term and in that long- term effect, and COVID is not safe for kids. The risks from COVID are real.

The second reason we see the plateauing though is because of the campaign of misinformation and disinformation, because parents are hearing these things, saying, oh, COVID isn't as bad in little kids as it is in adults, that's true. Yes, car crashes are more likely to kill a kid than COVID. But you put your kid in a car seat or you seat belt, you put them in a booster seat, you give them lots of vaccines for things like diphtheria, which we don't see in the United States anymore thanks to vaccines.

The misinformation has, unfortunately, led parents to think that not getting vaccinated for COVID is not going to put their kids at risk. Let me be clear, the vaccine is so safe and so effective at protecting your kids.

GOLODRYGA: Listen, and if they don't believe it by listening to doctors like you, reputable doctors like yourself and your colleagues, ask your own doctors, right, at home. Ask your pediatricians, ask the people that you know and you trust and, most likely, they will also concur that this is the right thing to do for their children and they should do it right now. Dr. Megan Ranney, as always, thank you so much for joining us.

RANNEY: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Secretary of State Antony Blinken has just wrapped up a call with his Russian counterpart. Is the U.S. any closer to learning exactly what Vladimir Putin intends to do in Ukraine? We'll have an update, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:00]

SCIUTTO: Secretary of State Antony Blinken just finished a call with his Russian counterpart, the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov. The State Department says, Blinken emphasized the need for diplomacy, again urged Russia to deescalate its aggression towards Ukraine. No sign yet, Bianna, of de-escalation.

GOLODRYGA: No. The talks come after the Kremlin said it has not sent yet its main reply to the U.S., claiming a response U.S. officials received yesterday was a, quote, mix-up.

Joining us now to discuss is Susan Glasser, CNN Global Affairs Analyst and Staff Writer for The New Yorker. And, Susan, great to see you as always.

When I heard that this was, quote/unquote, misquote, I was a bit nervous and perplexed because it seems that that is all that's lacking right now from full-on confrontation. If there's a miscalculation, if there's some sort of gunfire by the hands of a Russian, right, or Ukrainian, this could set everything off.

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, that's right. If you look at the Russian playbook and at the Soviet playbook before that, often, there is an event that gets blown out of proportion, misconstrued, that leads to much bigger conflict or is also a way of distracting attention and then, boom, the actual invasion occurs somewhere else. So, I think we're in this very fraught period right now.

On the one hand, it's important and good that diplomatic talks are still occurring between Tony Blinken and Sergey Lavrov. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be so much of a process as it is sort of a continual series of misconnections, right? They're talking on the phone, but are they hearing?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Susan, you spent a number of years living in Moscow and covering Moscow. You're familiar with the Russian playbook here. I wonder, when you look at these continuing conversations, do you believe Russia is open to a diplomatic solution offering up to this or that they're playing for time here to prepare for military action?

GLASSER: Well, look, certainly, you have to look at what's in front of you when it comes to Vladimir Putin. And one thing I learned covering the early years of his rise to power was it makes sense to pay close attention to what Putin is actually saying. And that's why I've been alarmed ever since Putin wrote an article this summer, which were then distributed to every single member of the Russian military, all the Russian soldiers, essentially saying that Ukraine was not a legitimate independent state and rightfully a part of Russia. And to me, that had really strong echoes of things that we've heard from Putin before, that it behooves us to pay close attention to.

You can't negotiate about that and that's the fear that it's not a real diplomatic process.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And, listen, we haven't heard from Putin publicly on this crisis since December and that's why we're eagerly anticipating to hear from him possibly within any moment now, as he is meeting with Hungarian Prime Minister Orban in Moscow now.

Susan, you and I have spoken about this in the past, but we go back to last summer in Geneva, when President Biden said that, in terms of what he was hoping for in relationship with Putin, he wanted a stable and predictable relationship with him. Well, here we are now, seven months later, perhaps on the precipice of war.

Regardless of whether Russia goes in now, whether it's a minor incursion or a major one, what does this do for that relationship for the rest of President Biden's term?

GLASSER: Well, I think it's a very important point, Bianna.

[10:55:00]

Because the truth is that Putin has already pretty radically destabilized the European order at a minimum and arguably the broader geopolitical order, this is already a pretty radical step that he's taken. And it's almost impossible for me at this point to see a return to the status quo and to a return to the period before he sent 130,000 troops to the border with Ukraine. And so in that sense, I think the instabilities are going to continue for quite some time.

SCIUTTO: Susan Glasser, that may very well be his intention as regards to Ukraine. Thanks very much.

And thanks very much for all of you for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciutto.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

At This Hour with Kate Bolduan starts after this quick break.

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[11:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN AT THIS HOUR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Here's what we're watching at this hour, a threat to democracy. Exclusive CNN reporting exposes how Trump advisers had not one but --