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Vaccine Approval For Children Under 5 Approaching?; Second Trump Draft Order to Seize Voting Machines Emerges; President Biden Holds Bipartisan Meeting on Supreme Court Pick. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 01, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:05]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. It is good to be with you.

We are following several developing stories right now.

There's new information about the role Donald Trump played in efforts to seize voting machines in states he lost and how that's impacting the January 6 investigation.

CAMEROTA: And COVID vaccines could soon be available for the youngest age group. Pfizer is expected to seek emergency use authorization from the FDA as soon as today to vaccinate children aged 6 months to 5 years.

BLACKWELL: And goodbye to the GOAT. After 22 seasons in the NFL, Tom Brady makes it official. He is retiring. Of course, we will get to that.

But we're going to start with this meeting between President Biden and a bipartisan pair from the Senate. He's meeting right now with Democratic Senator Dick Durbin -- of course, he's chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee -- and its ranking Republican member, Senator Chuck Grassley.

Now, the panel oversees the confirmation hearings.

CAMEROTA: The president has been facing some conservative outcry over his vow to nominate a black woman.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House for us. So, Kaitlan, what's the plan for this meeting with these two senators?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is really the first formal meeting that we have seen since Justice Breyer did confirm and make it official last week that he will be stepping down from the Supreme Court if his successor is confirmed by that point at the end of this term.

That would be -- put it around June or July. And so, of course, the topic at this meeting today with President Biden and Vice President Harris in the Oval Office is, who is going to replace him? That is going to be the next big question for this White House. And President Biden has said he will pick someone by the end of the month, he believes.

And so, today, this is the first formal meeting that we're seeing where they are discussing this vacancy here at the White House, though we know the preparations are well under way to figure out who the next nominee is going to be. We have talked a lot about the short list and those candidates and what they look like.

And Senator Dick Durbin and Senator Chuck Grassley are going to play a key role in this process going forward, because, of course, they are going to be the ones handling the confirmation hearing happening on Capitol Hill once President Biden has picked who his nominee, his Supreme Court pick is going to be.

And we already know that he has said he will stand by his pledge to put the first black woman on the Supreme Court. It is, of course, pretty familiar territory for President Biden, given he was once the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and now he's meeting with the new chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee in the Oval Office now.

We should get some camera footage any moment now of what's happening inside that meeting. We will see what President Biden says is they are working on the search to figure out who he is going to pick and as he is trying to make history with this selection.

CAMEROTA: OK, Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much.

All right, now to new information Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. We're getting new details about the behind-the- scenes maneuvering by former President Trump and his inner circle.

CNN has learned that not one, but two versions of an executive order were drafted to try to seize voting machines in states that Trump lost. The first one directed the Department of Defense to seize these machines. The second one directed the Department of Homeland Security to do so.

Had those orders been issued, it would have been an unprecedented use of military and federal agents. "The New York Times" reports the Donald Trump himself was directly involved -- quote -- "President Trump directed his lawyer Rudolph Giuliani to make a remarkable call to ask the Department of Homeland Security if it could legally take control of voting machines in key swing states -- end quote.

Sources say the idea was the brainchild of two retired military officers, former Trump National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and Army Colonel Phil Waldron.

BLACKWELL: But it's not clear who wrote those orders.

Now, we do know that at one point Giuliani approached Ken Cuccinelli, who was second in command at DHS at the time, about seizing voting machines after the election. Cuccinelli pushed back, saying Homeland Security had no authority.

Cuccinelli has said the conversation never developed to the point of talking about an executive order. And CNN has also learned that another top aide to former Vice President Mike Pence, Greg Jacob, is meeting with the January 6 committee today. The other aide, Marc Short, Pence's former chief of staff, gave an interview to the committee last week.

All right, let's talk about this now with Renato Mariotti, former federal prosecutor, retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, CNN military analyst, and CNN senior political analyst John Avlon, who once worked for Rudy Giuliani when he was New York mayor.

Welcome to all of you.

And, John, let's start with you and this -- I mean, we first learned that Rudy Giuliani was at the head of this fake electors scam. Now he's going to Cuccinelli and saying, hey, can you lead up this seizure of voting machines? Just how integral he is to this broad scam to try to steal the election?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: He seems to have been completely integral, that Donald Trump was using him as his go-to guy, under the auspices of being his lawyer, and trying to push through all these unconstitutional and in some cases illegal schemes to try to overturn an election.

[14:05:05]

According to "The New York Times," Trump told Giuliani to see -- to intervene. And therefore, that was the context of this conversation with Cuccinelli.

We need to take a step back and just keep perspective here that this attempt to overturn an election, the details we're learning, the draft executive orders that we have read, are unlike anything in American history.

This is -- is such an autocratic attempt to undermine our democracy, to steal power, to destroy everything that makes us a constitutional democratic republic. It is far beyond anything that Richard Nixon ever attempted. This is villainy in the eyes of American history.

CAMEROTA: Yes, General Hertling, it veers into military coup. I mean, this is Third World stuff, when you hear about how the plan was to try to rope the Department of Defense and the Department of Homeland Security into seizing voting machines in the states where Donald Trump lost.

And I'm just wondering what your thoughts are as you hear about this plot?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a coup. Perhaps it was an attempt at the start of a coup. But the definition of the coup, Alisyn, is a violent overthrow of a government with control of all parts of the armed forces, the police and other military elements.

They never had, that. They had a couple of whack jobs in Flynn and Waldron, who suggested this kind of operation. But, in fact, it was stopped within the Pentagon. And I don't know where it was stopped. Was it stopped at the civilian leadership or the military leadership?

But I will tell you, Alisyn, as I have said so many times on this program, the military will not follow illegal orders. This is -- as John just said, this would have been an illegal order. If there was anyone in the civilian infrastructure of the Department of Defense, someone who had been placed there by the president, it still has to go to the military commanders.

And having been a former military commander, I will tell you, there was always a lawyer by my side when I was making decisions on whether an order was illegal or illegal. And I got to tell you, it would have stopped there, as we have seen several other times during the Trump administration.

But this is just -- as John just said, this is just flabbergasting that it even got that far that a draft order would be written, and that there were some people willing to carry it out.

BLACKWELL: So, Renato, the general makes a good point about how far this went and how far did not go.

But for those who aided in this, who typed it up, who tried to push it, is there some legal exposure for them for trying to get this done?

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, I -- certainly, there is. I mean, I think particularly we have heard details about this fake electors scheme. Obviously, making false statements to the federal government in connection with any sort of governmental proceeding can be a crime.

But I have to say, this goes beyond a -- any sort of typical federal crime. I mean, what we're talking about here is potentially the end of American democracy. And I agree with the general that this did -- thankfully didn't get as far as it could have.

But it's actually pretty scary that we got to a point where there was a proposal that would have potentially ended our constitutional system and our way of government. So, and we saw with Rudy Giuliani, just because someone's a lawyer, they may not always be giving the right advice. So what I would say is, this certainly was beyond the pale. It was an

abuse of presidential power. Whether or not it turns into criminal charges or civil charges really depends on the evidence that's yet to come from that committee.

CAMEROTA: There's so many threads here, John, in terms of the gross disregard for the office of the presidency.

So another one is that the documents that showed up the National Archive at the end of the Trump administration...

AVLON: Sure.

CAMEROTA: ... were torn up into little pieces, many of them.

That jogged Victor's memory of an interview that I did in 2018 on "NEW DAY" talking to the guys who were tasked at the National...

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: These are archivists.

AVLON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: These are professional archivists. They were tasked with like an arts and crafts project of having to tape together pieces, and they showed it to us. They demonstrated for us what they had to do with Trump documents.

Here's this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Can you just hold up, both of you, for us the kinds of things that were delivered to your desk and the -- like, what size little pieces of paper were these?

Show me some of the sizes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, different sizes.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tiny pieces. Medium size.

CAMEROTA: OK.

And then what would you both set about doing? Demonstrate it for us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

We -- like a puzzle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to lay it out on the table.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay it on the table. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Great big desk. Pour the contents on the desk. And we literally had to spend hours per day piecing together the puzzle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:10:05]

CAMEROTA: These important documents now...

AVLON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: ... at the National Archives are being treated that way, because -- total disregard for the Presidential Records Act and history and the office of the presidency.

AVLON: I mean, all of that.

It clearly shows, A, Donald Trump felt he had something to hide, and no respect for the office of the president or the historic record, right? This is all an ego trip, right? The big lie and an attempt to overturn our democracy is being done solely to soothe his ego.

That's how much of a seditious snowflake this guy is. And so he's trying to destroy all these documents. And they're being put together dutifully by people who are dedicated civil servants who have far more respect for the historical record than the person actually occupying the Oval Office at the time.

But it's just one more example. Every detail we know, the picture couldn't be clearer. And I got to say, one thing that's so stunning to me is to see, as this information comes out, Republican senators currently in office, who have sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution, all finding ways to rationalize what Donald Trump did, as he tries to aim for the presidency again.

Just stop for one second, and pretend for a second that you give a damn about the action, not about partisan affiliation. What would those senators say if a Democratic president did it?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

AVLON: It is -- this is happening right now? The cowardice is still occurring.

BLACKWELL: Renato, let me ask you.

I mentioned these two Pence aides who are the 1/6 Committee, Greg Jacob today, Marc Short, who was the chief of staff during the Trump administration to Vice President Pence.

We know that -- from Pence's people, that he would rather see those -- that level, those top aides go to the committee, instead of show up himself, as a proxy for him. Does that get the committee what they need? Or do they still need to hear from the vice president?

MARIOTTI: I think it gets the committee what they need, as long as there weren't personal conversations between Trump and Pence in which Trump made statements to Pence, directed Pence to do things.

In other words...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Mariotti, hold on one second, because we want to go to the White House now because there's this meeting with the president and two senators who lead the Senate Judiciary Committee.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... two good friends down here.

We have done an awful lot of Supreme Court justices together, Senator Grassley and I, as well as Senator Durbin.

And we have worked together in a lot of court nominations overall, but particularly Supreme Court nominees. And selecting a justice is one of the president's most serious responsibilities.

And as I always said -- and I went back and looked at a lot of the opening statements I made. Apparently, Dick, I have presided over more Supreme Court justices than anybody around who's still in Congress or associated with government, which just kind of means we must be beyond 60, Chuck. I'm not sure what it is. A little older.

(CROSSTALK)

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IA): I get -- for you, it would be 15 or 16.

BIDEN: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BIDEN: Yes, I started way back early on, in the early '70s.

At any rate, what we're going to do, as I have said before -- and I went back and looked at some of the opening statements I made for justices over the years -- that you know, the Constitution says advise and consent, advice and consent.

And I'm serious when I say it that I want the advice of the Senate, as well as the consent. We can arrive on who the nominee should be. And it's -- there's always a renewed national debate every time we nominate, any president nominates a justice, because the Constitution is also evolving slightly in terms of additional rights or curtailing rights, et cetera.

And it's always an issue. And there are several schools of thought in terms of judicial philosophy, and we will see. But the fact is that I'm looking for someone who I can -- this is not a static issue.

It flows back and forth. What I'm looking for is a candidate with character, with the qualities of a judge, in terms of being courteous to the folks before them and treating people with respect, as well as a judicial philosophy that is more one that suggests that there are unenumerated rights in the Constitution, and all the amendments mean something, including the Ninth Amendment.

And -- but I intend to take this decision -- make this decision and get it to my colleagues by the end of the month. That's my hope. And I am looking forward to their advice and how to proceed and how the hearing will be conducted and the like.

So, thank you very much. We're going to get a chance to talk. I want to hear from them today. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: All right, President Biden there meeting with the top two members of Senate Judiciary, Chairman Dick Durbin, Ranking Member Chuck Grassley, discussing, one, what he's looking for from the Senate, of course, advise and consent, their constitutional role, says he's actually looking for that, and then detailing the elements he's looking for in his pending nominee.

[14:15:16]

CAMEROTA: He said he wants someone with character, someone who's respectful and he wants to look at their judicial philosophy. And he says he's going to make a decision by the end of this month. So we will see what happens after this meeting.

BLACKWELL: All right.

Let's go. We have still got our panel. We're going to go back to Renato Mariotti to finish your thought.

We were talking about specifically the Pence aides, and if that will get the committee what they need, instead of potentially not hearing directly from former Vice President Mike Pence.

MARIOTTI: Well, the committee's job, Victor, is to chronicle what happened.

And particularly given that we know -- Pence and Trump have both said that they had conversations around that time, those conversations are things that only those two men know, unless other people were listening in on the line.

So I do think, for those conversations, they will need testimony or a record of some kind from Pence about those conversations. Otherwise, I do think that they can get a lot of what they need from Marc Short and others, who presumably were not only there that day, but, of course, were in close communication with Mike Pence.

CAMEROTA: OK, gentlemen, thank you very much. We really appreciate your help with all of that.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's go now to breaking news.

We have got Miguel Marquez with us here, breaking news of a shooting in Virginia.

What do you know?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is in Bridgewater, Virginia, out on the western edge of Virginia, right near West Virginia, basically.

Bridgewater College says that they have a ongoing situation. It sounds at the moment that one person has been taken into custody, that the situation may be coming to a resolution and an end. There's no reports of anyone injured so far. But this person may be in custody.

The university, the college still asking students there to shelter in place until they're 100 percent that everything is clear.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's pray that the no injuries stays as you get more developments.

MARQUEZ: Indeed.

CAMEROTA: Thank you very much bringing us that breaking news.

MARQUEZ: You got it. All right.

BLACKWELL: Well, Pfizer could submit an emergency use authorization request as soon as today for their COVID vaccine in kids under 5. So many parents have been waiting for this. Why the company might ask for approval of fewer doses to accelerate that timeline. We will talk about that.

CAMEROTA: And seven-time Super Bowl champ Tom Brady announces his retirement. Why now, who he thanked, and who was feeling snubbed by this statement?

Tom Brady super fan John Berman will join us, as soon as he sobers up.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:22:07]

BLACKWELL: Some potentially exciting news for parents of young children.

A source tells CNN that Pfizer is expected to seek emergency use authorization from the FDA as soon as today for its vaccine for children aged 6 months to 5 years.

CAMEROTA: The company is seeking approval for a two-dose regimen of the COVID-19 shot, while continuing to test three doses in the same age group.

Federal regulators hope it can be granted by the end of this month.

Dr. Ofer Levy is here. He's the director of the Precision Vaccines Program at Boston Children's Hospital, and a member of the FDA COVID vaccine advisory panel.

Dr. Levy, thanks so much for being here.

My first question is, do we know if it even works in this age group? Do we know if the two-dose regimen does provide protection? And the reason that I ask you is because the last information that we had -- let me pull up this graph for you. And I want to draw your attention to the middle set of data there. Between 2-and-5-year-olds, the to dose regimen produce lower levels of immunity in that age group compared to 16-to-25-year-olds.

So what are your thoughts?

DR. OFER LEVY, BOSTON CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Well, thank you for that, Alisyn.

This is a very important question right now. We have nearly 20 million Americans who are less than 5 years of age, and we're seeing a sharp increase in the number of hospitalizations in children during Omicron. And, therefore, this question has come into sharp relief.

I don't want to prejudge the data. We welcome seeing the data on safety, safety first and efficacy of the Pfizer mRNA vaccine in children in this age group, and then make an independent determination there.

What has been announced is that the two-dose series does induce some antibody response in this age group, and that there is a -- that there's good safety data. But, again, I have not seen the data yet. So I'm going to suspend my opinion until I see those briefing documents.

BLACKWELL: I wonder if you just gave me an answer to this. But do we know if immunocompromised children are part of this trial, this study? And what would be the message you give parents with those specific concerns?

LEVY: Right. So I have not yet seen the study documents to know its design. Certainly, we begin with assessing safety.

Vaccines, you give to healthy people, so they better be safe. So there will be very close scrutiny of the safety data for this vaccine in any age group, and especially when we're talking about such young children. So we will take a careful look at that. We're talking about any acute events after the vaccine is given in the days after the vaccine, and also longer term over the span of a few weeks.

And so we will take a careful look at that. Then we will look at the antibody response and any other measures of immunity that were included in the study. And then we will look at, did the vaccine prevent infection and COVID disease in these children.

[14:25:05]

So, we welcome seeing these data. We have many Americans in this age group. They're out there in the community. They do get infected. And, unfortunately, every day now, nearly 900 children less than 17 years of age, approximately 900 children, are being hospitalized every day in the United States right now with Omicron, because it spreads so readily.

And then, particularly in the very young age groups, the airways are smaller. So that may also contribute to some difficulty handling secretions, handling the viral infection in the upper airway for those very young ages.

CAMEROTA: Yes, so, Dr. Levy, I think so many parents will be heartened to hear that safety first and that that's the first thing you will look at.

How long will it take you to look at all that data to figure out safety and efficacy? Can it be approved by the end of this month?

LEVY: So, again, I think the sponsor in this case, Pfizer, provides the data documents to FDA.

FDA makes a determination if they want to convene our committee. And until such time as they publicly disclose the date of such a meeting, I'm not allowed to comment on it. But once it becomes public, then, of course, I can. And then, a few days before the meeting, they release documents for our committee to review.

Those documents are eventually made public. Every piece of information we're provided is made public for any American to download off the FDA Web site. It's a transparent process. And, of course, as you know, our deliberations will be live, so -- and in public. Everything is on the record.

So it is a good process. And let it take its course. And I look forward to it.

CAMEROTA: We do too. We appreciate all that transparency.

Dr. Ofer Levy, thank you.

LEVY: Always a pleasure. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: You too.

All right, after 22 seasons, seven-time Super Bowl champion -- oh, he also got a bunch of MVP trophies I can tell you all about during the commercial break, Victor.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: Tell me about them.

CAMEROTA: But Tom Brady is hanging up his cleats.

Reaction to his retirement from one of his biggest fans at CNN, super fan.

BLACKWELL: Or anywhere.

CAMEROTA: Or anywhere on Earth, honestly.

BLACKWELL: Really, yes.

CAMEROTA: John Berman will be with us.

BLACKWELL: Well, listen, there's a lot going on today. Here's what else we're watching.

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