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Denver Ends Indoor Mask Mandate as COVID Surge Declines; CDC Publicly Releases First COVID Wastewater Surveillance Data; Pence: Trump is Wrong, I had No Right to Overturn the Election; Beijing Games Begin Amid Diplomatic Boycott and COVID Restrictions. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 04, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: CDC advisers just approved the Moderna COVID vaccine. Monday, the FDA gave its official green light and the final nod will now need to come from the CDC director. COVID cases and hospitalizations are going down nationwide but deaths are still very high.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Now one of the ways the CDC knows coronavirus is on the decline is through wastewater. Today the agency unveiled its national wastewater tracking system releasing its findings for the first time. Scientists are learning one of the first signs of infection can show up in a person's waste even before symptoms appear. A test show a decrease in the amount of virus at two third of the system's 400 sample sights. The CDC is now posting the data on its website.

CAMEROTA: So, in Denver, as of today, people no longer have to wear a mask in public indoor space. Denver's mayor says that's because COVID cases and hospitalizations are in a downward trend as more people get vaccinated. Denver county reports 78 percent have two doses. 40 percent of the county are boosted.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Lucy Kafanov is in Denver. So, What are you seeing there?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Victor, Alisyn. It's a sign of some semblance of a return to normalcy, normal life. At this Denver supermarket, Leevers, as of this morning customers and staff were not required to wear masks. What were CNN the ground though, it's still very much, you know, up to the individuals. We're seeing some folks who are masked up, some employees who are masked up, others are not.

It is a weight off of businesses who are been forced to essentially become mask police over the past two years. But it is very much an individual choice now for businesses whether to require masks or not. So, plummeting COVID rates have prompted Denver County to lift its mask mandate, as well as Broomfield. Both of those happening on Friday. This weekend Arapaho and Adams County also lifting their mask mandates. And we have seen COVID cases go down across the state as well as

hospitalizations. A lot lower than they were during the peak in January. But health experts here in Colorado are still encouraging people to wear masks indoors when they can. They say that the transmission rate of the virus remines high. But again, that burden now lifted off of businesses, at least here in Denver County -- guys.

CAMEROTA: OK, Lucy Kafanov, thanks for the update.

BLACKWELL: Let's speak with Dr. Perry Wilson associate professor of medicine at Yale University School of Medicine. Doctor, welcome to you. Alisyn, every time we do mask mandate lifting story, I think about that time we were together. It was May of 2021. The CDC said take off your mask if you're vaccinated and then came Delta and then came Omicron.

CAMEROTA: And we put the mask right back on.

BLACKWELL: And we put it right back on. Doctor, is it time for these mandates to be lifted considering what we're seeing?

DR. F. PERRY WILSON, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, YALE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, we are saying a downtrend in cases almost all across the country. And the thing about Omicron being so infectious is a lot of people were infected. It's very likely that case will continue to decline simply because the virus doesn't have that many new places to go.

Do we know masks are effective add preventing transmission? Yes, there's new data coming out even just recently by CDC suggesting that people who are wearing masks are less likely to become infected. So, on an individual level, absolutely. It will protect you. If you feel safer wearing a mask, go ahead. But I think the writing is on the wall here as case rates start to go down, there's going to be a lot of pressure to pull back on the mask mandates and I don't think that will change very much regardless of what public health experts might advise.

CAMEROTA: I am so interested in this national wastewater study. Words I never thought I'd say. But if there's this national wastewater surveillance system and monitors wastewater in 19 different state. Two third of the sites -- I think it has something like 500 sites. Two- thirds have shown that any traces of the virus have gone down in wastewater. And so, does that mean that COVID is over or Omicron is over? I mean, I really want to brace myself and not think that, OK, the light at the end of the tunnel, we're almost out of this, if that's not true.

WILSON: Well, so we've been using wastewater sampling here in Connecticut for almost the entire pandemic. And so, we have a lot of experience with it. It is a leading indicator of cases. So, the rates of coronavirus in the wastewater goes up before the cases start coming to attention in the hospital or in the clinics outside. Really interesting, and the reverse is true too. Those levels start going down even before the case levels start going down in the local area. So, it's a great indicator of what's going to happen. And the truth

is, cases are going to continue to decline. That is what's going to happen. What I can't tell you, is if they will decline down to such a level that, you know, we are effectively can declare the pandemic over.

[15:35:00]

As we have seen many, many times, cases can go down and then they can come back up. I think a lot of us think that because Omicron was so infectious, we won't see a rebound infection wave after this because of the spread of immunity through the population. But I've learned enough not to make predictions. In the short-term cases going down that's as far as I can go.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's talk about the Moderna approval. Still need the CDC director's sign off. But the CDC panel as approved it. The FDA as well. What's the significance of this approval considering Pfizer's been approved for some time now?

WILSON: Well, what has happened here is the CDC has gone from their interim recommends which went to or intro-recommendation, which went with that emergency authorization, to their full recommendation. And what they've done in between times is had access to all of the new data that's come out since the interim-recommendation. Particularly a lot of safety data regarding things like myocarditis, heart inflammation from these vaccines.

So, they had access to all that data and can say, now, you know, in the full light of day that now that we've given millions and millions of doses, what is the true risk versus benefit? And it was very clear. Myocarditis rates were inflated, but even in the highest risk group, young men, the rate was about 60 extra cases of myocarditis per million injections. That was not enough of a safety signal to outweigh the dramatic benefit, which in that same age group is about a thousand fewer hospitalizations.

And so, the panel unanimously endorsed this vaccine which I think makes a lot of sense.

CAMEROTA: One last thing, doctor. The deaths are still staggeringly high. You know, we don't talk about it that often anymore because we hope that we're coming out of it. But 2,441 Americans a day -- that is the average this week. I mean, that is -- it would have been inconceivable, obviously, before the pandemic to imagine something like that. And they seem to be -- and here's the graph. You know, they're still very, very high. How long is that going to stay?

WILSON: Yes, and let me put that number into even more perspective. In a bad flu season if we take all the death and the bad flu season, we see about 100 per day. If you kind of stretch it over the course of a year. OK, so this -- even right now we are 24 times worse than what you might see in a bad flu season. It is horrific. We know that deaths lag behind cases by about 4 to 6 weeks. That's been consistent throughout the entire pandemic. So, we really should see deaths start to decline because cases have

been declining for some time now. We'll see it earliest in the Northeast where the Omicron wave hit first and then it'll sort of -- that decline and death rates will spread across the country mirroring that Omicron spread from four the six weeks ago. So, that should happen. But the number is still very high. We're a long way to get to, you know, 100 deaths a day which we might consider normal of a typical respiratory virus.

BLACKWELL: All right, Dr. Perry Wilson, thanks so much.

CAMEROTA: OK now to this. Former Vice President Mike Pence is speaking at the Federalist Society in Florida. So, let's listen.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... I raise my right hand. I put my left hand on Ronald Reagan's bible. And I pledged to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. Many of you have taken that same oath.

It's actually the same oath that our son took when he was commissioned in the United States Marine Corps and the same oath my father took before going off to combat in the Korean War. Surrounded by her family, I made a solemn American promise to the American people. It ended with prayer, so help me God. And every day for four years of our administration, I prayed for the grace and strength to do just that.

As constitutional conservatives, the American people must know that we will all keep our oath to the Constitution even when it would be politically expedient to do otherwise. As the late great Justice Antonin Scalia said, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do which is apply the Constitution even though I do not always like the results. The American people must know as the bible says it will keep our oath even when it hurts.

January 6th was a dark day in the history of the United States Capitol. Lives were lost and many were injured. Thanks to the courageous action of the Capitol Police and federal law enforcement, the violence was quelled, the Capitol was secured and we reconvened the Congress that very same day to finish our work under the Constitution of the United States and the laws of this country.

[15:40:02]

Under Article 2 Section 1, Elections are conducted at the state level not by the Congress. The only role Congress has with respect to the Electoral College is to open and count votes submitted and certified by the states. No more, no less.

Actually, our founders were deeply suspicious of consolidated power in our nation's capital. Were rightly concerned with foreign interference in our presidential elections if they were decided in our new capital. That's why the constitutional convention settled on state-based elections. And that's also why the United States Senate was right to reject the Democrats latest effort to nationalize our elections just two weeks ago. But there are those in our party who believe that as the presiding

officer over the joint session of Congress that I possess unilateral authority to reject Electoral College votes. And I heard this week that President Trump said I had the right to overturn the election. But President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs do the American people and the American people alone. And frankly, there's no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person can choose the American president.

Under the Constitution I had no right to change the outcome of our election. And Kamala Harris will have no right to overturn the election when we beat them in 2024.

Look, I understand the disappointment many feel about the last election. I was on the ballot. But whatever the future holds, I know we did our duty that day. John Quincy Adams reminds us, duty is ours. Results are Gods. And the truth is there's more at stake than our party or political fortunes. Men and women, if we lose faith in Constitution, we won't just lose elections, we'll lose our country.

CAMEROTA: Well, that was monumental.

BLACKWELL: The former Vice President Mike Pence there saying something that we have not heard him say before. President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election.

CAMEROTA: We have not heard, as you said, Vice President Pence speak I think this -- fulsomely this strongly about -- I mean, we know that he had at one time -- what he considered a close relationship with President Trump and he rarely speaks against the president. And to hear him say President Trump is wrong, it was also interesting the setting -- the Federalist Society. They didn't boo. There was silence but they were applauding him at other parts where he's talking about his allegiance to the Constitution.

BLACKWELL: Yes, he certainly got an applause line when he said that Kamala Harris will have no right to overturn when we beat them in 2024. But I'd love to know some color inside the room what the reaction was when they heard that from the former Vice President.

Let's bring in now, CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger. Bill Kristol, CNN editor at large of the "Bulwark." And he is the director of Defending Democracy Together. And CNN political commentator Margaret Hoover, host of PBS Firing Line.

Gloria, first to you. Now hearing this 13 months after the former president said that he indeed had the right to overturn the election. The significance of hearing this from Mike Pence.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, It's enormous. This is the first time we have heard the former vice president say directly that his former boss whom he supported for his entire term say the president is wrong.

I had no right to do what he wanted me to do and so I didn't do it. Instead, I adhered to what the Constitution told me to do. And he used Justice Scalia and said, you know, quoted him, and said, you know, our elections are run by the states, not by the Congress.

[15:45:00]

And I think it's remarkable and you know, the question I have and of course it was a more receptive audience at the Federalist Society than it might be among some in the Republican base.

But I think this is a rift with Donald Trump. It's now broken. It's not going to be repaired. He has decided to go his own way and the question I have really is whether it means he's actually going to run or whether it means he's actually decided not to run and doesn't really have that concern as much about the Republican base.

So, we'll just have to see how it plays out. But it's remarkable. It's the first time, the first time we have really heard the former Vice President say anything more than, well, we don't see eye the eye on that day.

CAMEROTA: Bill, he went even further. He said the presidency belongs to the American people and the American people, alone.

BORGER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Frankly there is almost no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president. Bill, what do you think of this moment?

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: It's you or Alisyn. Well, I'm glad Mike Pence said it. I'm curious to see what he now says. Would he support Donald Trump if Donald Trump is the Republican nominee in 2024?

For me that's the core judgment. The core line that these people have to cross or stop at depending on how you think of it. Liz Cheney has said Donald Trump cannot, should not be president again.

If you're not willing to say that you can distance yourself, you can get some -- you know try to lay the groundwork for your own campaign by making clear now that so much more has come out, by making clear that what Trump did was not acceptable. You can try to position yourself as one notch to the more respectable side of Trump. But if you're not willing to say you won't support him in 2024, from my point of view, it's ultimately not that meaningful.

BLACKWELL: Margaret, let me read two more lines here from the former Vice President and then get your thoughts. He also said that I also share the concerns of millions of Americans about irregularities in the elections in several states but those issues were resolved by our court and our states. And then he went on to say, the truth there is more at stake than our party or political fortunes, if we lose faith in the Constitution we won't lose just elections, we'll lose our country. Your thoughts on what we heard from Pence?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN COMMENTATOR: Look, I have believed for some time that Mike Pence was the unsung hero of January 6th along with the police officers who fought on those front lines. And Mike Pence deserves a lot of recognition for doing exactly what he should have done upholding the Constitution against enormous winds coming in his direction on that day.

But what he just did today is as powerful because he is standing up for the Constitution in a party that has abandoned it. And he is giving hope and light to people who believe that there can be an opposition party to Democrats that still believes in the Constitution.

And what Mike Pence is doing here I think is drawing a line in the sand saying Trump you're on one side and I'm on the other. And that has enormous consequences both for the country. It's enormously important that the former Vice President says that about January 6th. Enormously important.

But it also has personal political consequences for a man who has always wanted to be president and by all accounts continues to aspire to the presidency in 2024.

Bill Krystol is right. He has to say Donald Trump deserves to be nowhere near the presidency. But he has essentially just drawn a line in the sand and put himself opposed to Donald Trump which is as we all know exactly where the base of the Republican Party is. They are with Trump. They are not with what Mike Pence just said. They disagree with Mike Pence. So, what does that mean for the future of the Republican Party?

CAMEROTA: Yes, go ahead, Gloria.

BORGER: And what does it mean for Mike Pence's political future? And, you know, that's why I say maybe he's thinking about not running. Who knows?

But just think of the context in which this occurred. Today in which we had the Republican National Committee vote to censure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and said that what occurred on January 6th was legitimate political discourse although they tried to walk that back and say that people who were protesting peacefully were the ones who were doing legitimate political discourse.

But they did vote to censure the two people who effectively support what Mike Pence just said today to the Federalist Society.

So, I think Bill is right. I think, you know, you want to take this a step further but I do think that this is hugely important because Mike Pence has just gotten a divorce from Donald Trump. I mean Trump has been at him for the last few weeks saying that the January 6th Committee should investigate the former Vice President. And I think Pence, uncharacteristically, I might add, gave it right back to him today. And said, no, I follow the Constitution. You're wrong. I'm right.

[15:50:00]

CAMEROTA: But Bill, I hear you. I hear you. That you are reserving the Hosannas right now because, you know, we've seen -- I mean we have a million examples. But Senator Lindsey Graham who says, I'm out. That's it. You know, this has gone too far for me on January 6th and then --

KRYSTOL: Will he? Wil he, Alisyn, I mean, will he cooperate with the January 6th committee? Does he want all the truth to come out? Will he water his -- or urge his former aides to cooperate fully? Will he testify publicly.

CAMEROTA: He has.

KRYSTOL: Let's see, you know, I'm willing to give him credit if he follows through on this. I'm not so willing to give him quite that much credit, I don't deny that it is important in the overall dynamics, perhaps, in the Republican Party. But he's no Liz Cheney yet, that's for sure.

BLACKWELL: All right, I asked for some color from inside the room and Steve Contorno is here to deliver. He was inside the room there in Florida. What was the reaction when we heard these words, Trump is wrong, I had no right to overturn the election?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, Victor, there was really a hush that fell over the room as Vice President Pence began to talk about January 6th and his role on that day. And you know, this was a very polite crowd. This was a crowd that he is friendly with and they did applause him when he spoke about filling his Constitutional duty.

There was applause as well for talking about when he put things -- framed it in terms of, we have to be strong on this now and say that one person cannot change the election or we risk the Democrats doing this in 2024 with Vice President Harris. That remark also got an applause but it was a very quiet room otherwise.

A couple people did walk out when he said that. I'm not sure if it was related but it was noticed by several people in the media row. And you know, just in general, we knew in advance he would say something about January 6th and that he was likely to have to address the comments that the president made just one week ago.

However, I don't think anyone anticipated that it would be such a strong rebuke of the president, calling him out by name and saying Trump is wrong. That was definitely a first here.

CAMEROTA: Yes, really interesting to hear what the mood was inside. And so, Margaret, this split screen. I mean as we've been talking the split screen of Vice President Mike Pence saying that, finally today. And then at the same day the RNC censuring Kinzinger and Cheney.

And the idea that they're-- that they now say that the legitimate political discourse -- that's why they're censuring them. That they didn't actually mean the violence at the Capitol, that's what the January 6th committee is investigating. The violence at the Capitol. How could they even have included those words into their statement?

HOOVER: Look, the Republican National Committee and its committee members have always represented the most extreme and oftentimes least organized cohort of the Republican Party. I mean, I couldn't even bore you, Alisyn, with the details of what has been in the Republican National Party's plank when it comes to having a party plank back in the days when they had a party plank before Donald Trump just said, I am the policy.

There are things that, you know, made the nominees of that party, George W. Bush, John McCain, squirm. So, it doesn't make any sense. They have passed off policy and real thinking to the authoritarian instincts of Donald Trump. And it is as Liz Cheney said, a sad day for the party of Lincoln.

But I just want to bring it back very quickly to this moment. That Mike Pence is speaking to a room full of lawyers. That is what the Federalist Society is. They're lawyers. They support the Constitution. They argue in the courts. They are part of the third branch of government, the judicial branch. And we need in order to prevent another January 6th, is the strengthening of the Electoral Count Act which is what Mike Pence is essentially alluding to there. He did what he believed was his duty.

But what has been discovered by lawyers, lawyers in that room, is that there are, that law is riddled with holes. And if the Electoral Count Act of 1887 isn't fixed before the next election, then the same thing, the same position that Mike Pence was put in, Kamala Harris could also be put in. And Democrats and Republicans ought to come together in the Senate and in the House to ensure that doesn't happen again.

CAMEROTA: We will see when we know that there is a bipartisan effort to try to work on that. We'll see where that goes.

But Steve Contorno, Bill Krystol, Margaret Hoover, Gloria Borger, thank you all very much. Really helpful to have your perspective.

[15:55:00]

Well, the Winter Olympics officially underway in Beijing. We'll tell you what to look out for including Team USA making history and the artificial snow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The 2022 Olympic Winter Games are officially underway in Beijing. CNN's Don Riddell joins now. Don, tell us what's happening.

DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT ANCHOR: Well, it's all about it gets started in a few hours. Saturday is the first full day of competition, guys.

Some big American athletes in action over the next couple of weeks. Nathan Chen should be fascinating to look out for. Never won a medal. But three-time world champion in figure skating. Can he finally deliver on this stage?

Mikaela Shiffrin, and of course, fast on her way to becoming the greatest skier of all time. Not a big Olympic resume but she could do well here in Beijing.

Chloe Kim, remember, as a 17-year-old won the snowboard halfpipe, she's been to the university since then. She I think will be the favorite to do it again.

And what about Shaun White at 35 years old could be "flying tomato" land, a fourth gold medal.

The American team is out there in force -- 222 athletes on the team, 108 of them are women. That represents the biggest female team in the history of the Winter Olympics and this is all be happening pretty much on fake snow.

Climate change is real. Certainly, when it comes to the Winter Olympics, there's going to be 300 snow cannons and 100 other snow machines making sure they have enough snow to ski and board on.

CAMEROTA: That is -- there's a lot there to look at. I love the figure skating. And 35-year-olds, you don't have to be put out to pasture. That should give all 35-year-olds hope that they still have a future. Don Riddell, thank you very much.

RIDDELL: All right.

BLACKWELL: All right, so there's a new top snowplow in Minnesota. Just call her "Betty Whiteout."

The Minnesota Department of Transportation has announced new names for its latest fleet of snowplows. 40,000 votes out of 60,000 cast in the state's name a snowplow contest went to "Betty Whiteout" to honor Betty White. I love that.

CAMEROTA: That is awesome.

BLACKWELL: So, you know, she died in December shortly before her 100th birthday.

CAMEROTA: OK, here are more winning snowplow names that will be assigned this month.

[16:00:00]

Ctrl Salt Delete.

BLACKWELL: I like that one. That's a good one.

CAMEROTA: The Big Leplowski. Plowasarus Rex, Scoop Dogg,

BLACKWELL: I'm into Scoop Dogg, got it.

CAMEROTA: Blizzard of Oz, No More Mr. Ice Guy and Edward Blizzardhands.

BLACKWELL: I'm still with Betty Whiteout.

CAMEROTA: That's the best.

OK. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.

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