Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Mike Pence Publicly Says Trump Is Wrong On 2020 Election Results; RNC Formally Censures Cheney And Kinzinger For January 6th Committee Service; Ex-Dolphins Head Coach Sues NFL, Claiming Racial Discrimination By Teams; Reagan's "Big Tent" GOP Has Collapsed Under Lies & Bigotry; Ron Reagan, Son Of Former President Ronald Reagan, Discusses Reagan's "Big Tent" GOP, Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson, Russia/Ukraine, And What His Father Would Think Of Current GOP. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired February 05, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:30]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

And we begin with disturbing new footage from January 6th, now released by the Justice Department. One clip shows a crowd of rioters gathered outside House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office. You can see that right there. Some of them trying to open doors unaware that members of Pelosi's staff were hiding just on the other side.

Another clip shows a former Marine making threats as he marches to the Capitol. Warning, you're going to hear some very disturbing language. We have not censored this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN NICHOLS, FORMER MARINE: I hearing the Pence just caved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

NICHOLS: Is that true? I'm hearing reports that Pence caved. I'm telling you, if Pence caved we're going to drag the motherfuckers through the streets. You fucking politicians are going to get fucking dragged to the streets.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: That was Ryan Nichols, and when we he got to the Capitol, he allegedly didn't just talk the talk. Nichols is accused of assaulting police officers with pepper spray. He is facing eight criminal charges and has pleaded not guilty.

These people were calling for violence against then Vice President Mike Pence because he would not do Donald Trump's bidding and unilaterally nullify the 2020 election. And remember, Trump egged on those threats. During the attack Trump essentially called Pence a coward in one of his final tweets. Now after more than a year of tiptoeing around the issue, brushing it off as not seeing eye to eye with Trump on January 6th, Mike Pence has dropped the pleasantries at least for the moment, calling out Trump by name.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I heard this week that President Trump said I had the right to overturn the election. President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs to the American people, and the American people alone. And frankly, there is no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president. Under the Constitution I had no right to change the outcome of our election.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Here to discuss former adviser to Vice President Mike Pence, Olivia Troye.

Olivia, great seeing you. Thanks for being with us. This is a big deal, is it not? He stopped just short of calling Trump un-American. But why now? Why did it take him 13 months to get to this point?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY, COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER TO PENCE: Hi, Jim, good to see you again. I mean, great question. I mean, in an ideal scenario, I wanted Pence to come forward on January 7th and break then. But look, in Pence's world, he is a man who does not like confrontation.

So for him to take that step to actually call out Trump and say he is wrong is a big deal for him, and look, in two and a half years that I worked for the former vice president, every speech that Pence gave started with I bring greetings from Donald Trump, and was always very laudatory, and then lauding praise on him every single time.

ACOSTA: Right.

TROYE: So this was a big moment. I just wish he would have done it sooner and our country would likely be in a very different place than where we are today.

ACOSTA: Exactly. If Pence had gone out there and gotten other big names in the GOP to stand on the stage with him, and if they had unilaterally in unison condemn Trump for what happened on January 6th, who knows where we would be right now? Perhaps in the same place but I mean one has to think it would be maybe just a little bit better.

You know, the fact that he chose to do this at the Federalist Society, this highly influential group for the Republican Party, what does that tell you? And you know Pence's inner circle. One would have to think that that inner circle which has, you know, for years tried to position Pence for running in 2024 thought now would be a good time to do it. For some reason now is the time to do it. What do you suppose that is?

TROYE: Well, one, it was the perfect opportunity in response to Trump's recent statements, right. He was directly attacking Mike Pence again, and so I think that was part of the calculus into this, and also the fact that, you know, Marc Short, the former vice president's chief of staff, and his former counsel, Gary Jacob, did testify and are cooperating with the Jan. 6th committee.

So all of that combined, but I would say in addition to that, this was a friendly audience. These are people who really truly understand the Constitution. They understand the role that they had that day when he went in and certified the election.

[15:05:05]

So I think in terms of reception for that crowd, this probably played over very well, and they knew that this would be the perfect opportunity for him to make that statement.

ACOSTA: And now that Mike Pence is, you know, is saying that Trump is wrong, isn't now the time for Pence to cooperate with the January 6th committee? Apparently the committee has not formally reached out to Mike Pence. But, you know, the vice president, the former vice president wants to, you know, keep going with this, why not reach out to the January 6th committee and say, hey, I'm willing to come in, let's do it?

TROYE: You know, I think he's weighing the calculus of 2024 still. But I think that by what he did, I think he sees an opportunity to make or break, and I do agree. Whether he'll come forward and cooperate, that remains to be seen.

I think he should. I actually think, you know, and I know this sounds crazy, but why not go in and testify in a public hearing and tell people, tell the American people exactly what you lived that day and just be, like, you know, push back on Donald Trump firsthand because what he continues to do in our country is so gravely damaging to our democracy and this man, Donald Trump, continues and his supporters and the people that continue to enable him in the Republican Party continue to radicalize Americans every single day based on lies.

ACOSTA: And you were a former adviser to Mike Pence, and I have to ask you about this RNC move yesterday to censure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, two members of the January 6th committee. The RNC's members voted on the specific wording in this resolution that drew a swift backlash. It reads, "Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger are participating in a Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse."

That phrase, legitimate political discourse, lit it up yesterday because somebody who was saying, wait a minute, you look at the video from January 6th, this is not legitimate political discourse. The RNC tried to clean that up. Ronna McDaniel said, no, no, we didn't mean the violence on January 6th. But that was, you know, come on. Like, you guys voted on this document. It was all there in black and white. You're trying to clean it up afterwards, that doesn't make any sense.

I'm just wondering, as adviser to a former vice president of the United States, to see one of the two major political parties in this country put out a resolution like that, what were your thoughts? TROYE: First of all, that statement was abhorrent. I mean, they are

basically saying, hey, we side with sedition. We side with domestic terrorists. We side against law enforcement. So I hope that the law enforcement voters out there are paying attention to this and they have a national party basically saying it's OK, it's OK to attack you when it comes to political beliefs because we don't agree with what happened.

And so I think, number one, it's dangerous what they have done. And look, it was fully intended to deliver the message that they sent. Whether they retract it now, it's already done. The damage is done. Who knows if they sent an actual e-mail to the donors, the people, you know, doing the small donations every month, did they send out message out to them, saying, oops, we'd like to correct the record with you?

So in terms of advising, you know, Mike Pence, where is your home now? What is it that you want to be? Do you want to lead away from where the Republican National Committee is and actually take a stand or do you want to choose on the side with basically sedition and undermining our democracy? And so I think that remains to be seen with Mike Pence, what he does in the days to come and will he now forcefully come out and support people like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger?

Adam Kinzinger, who is, by the way, serving in a military drill right now this weekend, and that is who the Republican National Committee is deciding to attack and censure, someone who is -- two people who are upholding their oaths of office and upholding the Constitution.

ACOSTA: Yes, there are a lot of people in the Republican Party who should be censured right now. Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger should never be on that list because of what they're doing on the January 6th committee.

Olivia Troye, thanks very much, and I'll have some comments on that RNC resolution later on this hour. Thanks for your time, Olivia. Appreciate it.

TROYE: Thanks.

ACOSTA: And coming up, the back-to-back scandals erupting in the NFL. I'll talk with one of the former head coaches accusing his old team of offering incentives to tank games. Plus his view of the lawsuit claiming a pattern of racial discrimination by NFL teams when it comes to black coaches.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:12]

ACOSTA: Today NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is responding to the bombshell lawsuit brought by former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores that is rocking the league right now. Flores alleges racial discrimination and that he was offered money to lose games which he refused.

In a memo to NFL teams, Goodell wrote in part, "We have made significant efforts to promote diversity and adopted numerous policies and programs which have produced positive change in many areas. However, we must acknowledge that particularly with respect to head coaches the results have been unacceptable.

We'll reevaluate and examine all policies and guidelines and initiatives relating to diversity, equity, and inclusion, including as they relate to gender. We also take seriously any issue relating to the integrity of NFL games. These matters will be reviewed thoroughly and independently."

CNN's Randi Kaye has more details now on Flores' claims.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[15:15:05]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN FLORES, FORMER NFL HEAD COACH: I understand the risk. Look, I love coaching football. I'm called to coach football.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Miami Dolphins coach, Brian Flores, loves coaching football but says the color of his skin has made it tough to land a job as head coach in the NFL. Flores filed a lawsuit this week against the NFL and its 32 teams alleging racial discrimination.

FLORES: Many have come before and done a lot to create change in this country for people of color. And I just felt like in this instance, you know, it was my turn to step up.

KAYE: Flores says he's stepping up after he claims the New York Giants interviewed him for a job as head coach even though they planned to hire the assistant coach from the Buffalo Bills, Brian Daboll, who was white. According to the lawsuit, text messages between Flores and Bill Belichick showed the Patriots' coach gave it away by congratulating the wrong person since Flores hadn't even been interviewed for the job yet.

Belichick writing, "I hear from Buffalo and NYG that you are their guy. Hope it works out if you want it to."

"Coach, are you talking to Brian Flores or Brian Daboll? Just making sure."

"Sorry. I effed this up. I double checked and I misread the text. I think they are naming Daboll. I'm sorry about that."

FLORES: It was humiliating, to be quite honest. There was disbelief. There was anger.

KAYE: Flores and his lawyers argue his interview with the Giants was just a formality so the team looked as though it was considering a minority candidate when it really wasn't. The league mandates teams interview minorities under what's called the Rooney Rule.

The New York Giants are pushing back saying, "Brian Flores was in the conversation to be our head coach until the eleventh hour."

And it's not just the Giants Flores accused of discrimination in its hiring practices. Flores claims in the lawsuit the Denver Broncos feigned interest, too. And after a similar bogus interview in 2019 gave the head coaching job to a white candidate. The Broncos denied the allegation.

FLORES: Just the entire process doesn't feel like you're an actual candidate. And that's unfortunate.

KAYE: Flores' lawsuit argues the NFL is, "rife with racism particularly when it comes to the hiring and retention of black head coaches, coordinators, and general managers." According to the NFL, the majority of the league's players are black. But the NFL has just one black head coach and three coaches of color. The League denied the allegations from Flores saying it's, "deeply committed to ensuring equitable employment practices and continue to make progress in providing equitable opportunities throughout our organization."

FLORES: Thank you.

KAYE: Beyond race, the lawsuit also accuses the Miami Dolphins' team owner of offering to pay Flores to lose games on purpose. $100,000 for each game lost, so the team could benefit from a higher NFL draft pick.

FLORES: There were, you know, several conversations about, we don't -- you know, take a vacation. We don't need to -- don't need to win right now.

KAYE: The Miami Dolphins deny Flores' allegations. Flores meanwhile was fired after leading the team to its first back-to-back winning seasons since 2003.

Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And I'm joined now by Hue Jackson who is currently the head football coach at Grambling State University. He was a head coach twice in the NFL for both the then Oakland Raiders and more recently the Cleveland Browns.

Coach, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on with us. We appreciate it.

You know, the NFL has had rules in place for years requiring teams to interview minority candidates when filling head coaching positions. Yet as we sit here right now in 2022, only one of the 32 NFL teams currently employs a black head coach. Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh, who has been fabulous there. The NBA has 14 black coaches, for example. What's going on here?

HUE JACKSON, FORMER CLEVELAND BROWNS HEAD COACH: Well, I think it's very obvious that the practices of how they hire minorities to the head coaching positions is not working, but it's been this way for a while, the fact that we're just now diving into this deeply, and again, I praise Brian for coming forward and telling his story because it's really a shame that we're having to do this in 2022.

ACOSTA: No question, and our Randi Kaye was just reporting on some of this on former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores' class action lawsuit against the NFL and the league's denial. You have said you'd be willing to join his lawsuit. Is that something that you're prepared to do?

JACKSON: Well, you know, there's, you know, we'll have a conversation about that in the future, but I think what's really important is that we have to get a transparency of what's really going on.

[15:20:08]

Let's be honest, there's racism that is going on in the National Football League. There's been a -- this has been 101-year history of the National Football League. There's only been 19 minority head coaches. So that's got to tell us something right there, that something is not right. Obviously just hearing Mr. Goodell's statements that it's not acceptable what is happening at the head coaching position, then why can't we change that?

You know, I get so tired of hearing that the owners want to hire people that look like them, that they go to dinner with. Well, they go to dinner with us coaches from time to time, too. They can get to know us if that's what they want to do. What's very obvious is that they do not want us in these positions, and I think that's what everybody has to understand. Let's just be very honest and transparent about it.

I was fortunate enough to do it twice for Al Davis who was unbelievable to me, but also in a situation in Cleveland that was very discomforting because I experienced some of the same things that Brian did.

ACOSTA: Yes, let's talk about that because, you know, Brian has essentially said that when he was in Miami, he was essentially offered cash for tanking games. You're describing a slightly different situation in Cleveland. Explain that to our viewers and how that came about.

JACKSON: There was a four-year plan that was put in place to incentivize not winning. The plan talked about winning in years '18 and '19, which was the last two years of the plan. It did not talk about winning at all in the first two years of football, and that's unheard of. Any coach that takes a job in the National Football League, your value goes up, a player's value goes up by winning.

So if you can just imagine being one in 31, going through that not just for myself but for the coaching staff and for the players, we put them into a position to where they value plummets, and we didn't give them the best chance to be successful. So it is very hard to sit here even today and talk about exactly what that felt like, what that looked like, because I did everything I could to fight against it.

I took it to the National Football League. I took it to Jimmy Haslam. I told him that we're going to destroy my career, my coach's career, and the players' career. And nothing was done about it. And then I was -- I went to arbitration to bring this fraud and racism of what was going on in the league, went to arbitration, was not granted arbitration. The case was just dismissed and didn't get an opportunity to even have this investigated to see if this really happened.

ACOSTA: And let me ask you this because the Browns' owner, Jimmy Haslam, I'm sure you've seen this, he has responded to what you've been saying and he told the "Knoxville News Sentinel" newspaper in response, "Unequivocally, Hue Jackson was never paid to lose games. That is an absolute falsehood."

Coach, he's saying you're not telling the truth here. Your response.

JACKSON: Well, I hope that Jimmy has an opportunity to answer some very pointed questions. It's very easy to stand in front of the people of Knoxville and say, hey, I wasn't paid to lose games or win games, but we need to very specifically ask him about his four-year plan, exactly what was in it, and why have a plan of four years and every category that was in it other than, like I said, year three and four talked about winning? Why not talk about winning in year one and two?

Why have things that really don't matter to coaches -- I don't care about how old our team is or how young the team is, how many draft picks I may have, those things are not what's important in a bonus structure. This was supposedly a bonus structure that I never got as soon as I was hired. I never seen this bonus structure until I was about a month and a half into the job, so there's something there, and I hope that people dig just a little bit deeper to find out.

ACOSTA: You know, and speaking of racism in American society, you know, I wanted to ask you, Coach, about Joe Rogan who is now apologizing after these videos have surfaced of him using the N word multiple times on his podcast.

I'm just curious, if you've heard about this, what are your thoughts on all of this? And do you think Joe Rogan should be able to stay on Spotify where his podcast is carried on that platform?

JACKSON: No, it's terrible. It's no different than what's happening in society today, and obviously the National Football League is showing itself the same way, and it's just disappointing that, like I said, here in 2022, we're having these kind of conversations, I mean, we have people that are, especially in the National Football League, and that's what I know more than anything, that very deserving of opportunities but for whatever reason, the owners, the racism that's going on has been a problem.

[15:25:08]

I just want the NFL and team owners to just be held to the same standards that they print in their constitution and bylaws, the integrity of the game documents and all other documents that they claim the foundation of the shield. I just like for people to be held accountable for what they say they do, and if they don't do it, right's right and wrong is wrong. And I think we'll find out more about what's really going on in the National Football League.

ACOSTA: All right, Coach Hue Jackson, thanks so much for your time. Thanks for raising this issue. Really appreciate it, and good luck to you and your players at Grambling. Thanks for your time.

JACKSON: Thank you.

ACOSTA: Appreciate it.

All right, coming up, the GOP's big tent has collapsed, as the Trump circus goes on. What would Ronald Reagan think about all of this. Hold on for that, including reaction from Reagan's son coming up in a few moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:24]

ACOSTA: Anybody remember the Gipper? This was how President Ronald Reagan stood up to the associates back in 1987.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Ronald Reagan stared down the Kremlin and is widely credited with winning the Cold War between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

These days, the Russians appear to be on the move again. And there are some very different reactions coming from what once was the party of Reagan.

Missouri GOP Senator Josh Hawley sent a letter to the secretary of state asking why the U.S. continues to support Ukraine's potential entry into NATO.

His letter also says the U.S. should help Ukraine defend itself but as our interest is not so strong, however, as to justify committing the United States to go to war with Russia over Ukraine's fate.

Of course, the Biden administration is not suggesting the U.S. go to war over Ukraine. Lawmakers in both parties are insisting that Russia respect Ukraine's sovereignty.

But Hawley appears to be aligning himself with a pro-Russia movement inside the GOP, led by former President Donald Trump and FOX's Kremlin comrade, Tucker Carlson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX HOST, "TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT": Why is it disloyal to side with Russia but loyal to side with Ukraine? They're both foreign countries that don't care anything about the United States. Kind of strange.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Which explains why Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger laid into Hawley tweeting, "I hate to be so personal but Hawley is one of the worst human beings and a self-aggrandizing con artist."

It appears that Tucker and Trump are waging what increasingly looks like a war on Reaganism.

Reagan put the first woman on the Supreme Court, Sandra Day O'Connor, while Tucker had a guest this week who admitted he's a sexist pig.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you pretending that Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, Stacey Abrams that they can save us? They can save this world. This is lunacy. Out of her role completely.

And I'm sorry if that paints me as a sexist pig, but it's what I believe.

CARLSON: Well, that's just -- I mean, that's just an epithet designed to make you be quiet.

But I guess I wonder, why is that? Why are you not allowed to have that opinion? Why is that so controversial?

That was the opinion of every society like from the beginning of time until about 20 minutes ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Notice no push back from Carlson. Is Tucker also a sexist pig, as Tucker would say? I don't know. I'm just asking questions. Why is one not allowed to have that opinion?

Reagan believed in a "Big Tent" GOP, making Colin Powell the nation's first black national security adviser.

Was Reagan perfect? No, he was hammered by many civil rights groups. But it's hard to see how Ronald Reagan would fit in the Trump/Tucker GOP of today.

Consider how Tucker recently echoed Trump's racist statements about Haiti and Baltimore. Recall, Trump once referred to Haiti as a shit hole, and Baltimore as rat infested.

Tucker combined those slurs into one segment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: It's one of the worst places in the western hemisphere. It's a little bit of Haiti in the mid-Atlantic. Baltimore is exactly what happens when you apply Jen Psaki's ideas to governing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: But it's clear the GOP will not stand up to Tucker or Trump.

In a feat of Orwellian shamelessness, Trump is now calling on the January 6th committee to investigate House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for, quote, "doing such a poor job of overseeing security at the capitol."

And former Vice President Mike Pence for not overturning the election results. For his part, Pence finally said what needed to be said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I heard this week that President Trump said I had the right to overturn the election. President Trump is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, Pence's momentary act of courage aside, the GOP is now rewarding Trump for his lies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC) (voice-over): It's his party. It's not Lindsey Graham's party. He will be the nominee in 2024 if he wants it. Stay tuned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Case in point, when Senator Lindsey Graham disagreed with the idea of pardoning January 6th insurrectionists, he was promptly smacked down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Lindsey Graham is wrong. I mean, Lindsey's a nice guy, but he's a write-off.

I would absolutely be prepared. And Lindsey Graham doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It's pretty simple. Because Republican leaders won't take out the trash in their party, it keeps piling up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CHEERING)

(HONKING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:35:05] ACOSTA: There was a book burning in Tennessee one week after a book about the Holocaust was banned in a separate part of the state. The GOP reaction? Largely silence from party leaders.

They don't even have the spine to confront Marjorie Taylor Greene anymore. She keeps lying of public health officials, even accusing them of murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): But I think that people really have blood on their hands that have stopped the prescriptions of Ivermectin.

Refused people who have had sick family members in the hospital of not being able to take Ivermectin or any other kind of lifesaving treatment or therapy.

Because it's Dr. Fauci and anyone at the CDC or anyone involved that stopped lifesaving treatments and therapies and people died. Well, I think they're guilty of murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: What is left of Ronald Reagan's party?

Senator Ted Cruz thinks it's fun to tweet out tips for riding out another winter storm in Texas. And jokes about inflation, saying plane tickets to Cancun are up 32 percent.

Ted Cruz could invoke Winston Churchill, and say, keep calm and carry on. But people might ask first class or coach.

Rudy Giuliani recently taped an episode of the "Masked Singer." The season is themed, The Good, the Bad and the Cuddly."

Perhaps Rudy could team up with Trump and do a rendition of Shaggy's hit, "It Wasn't Me."

Did you try to overturn the election? It wasn't me. Did you incite a riot? It wasn't me. Were you caught at Four Seasons Landscaping? It wasn't me.

Sadly, for the man once dubbed America's mayor, it was not even an original stunt, as Sarah Palin has already done the same show.

But perhaps nothing sinks as low as this. On Friday, the Republican National Committee formally censured two of its own, Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney, for their work on the January 6th committee.

The RNC resolution -- get this -- describes the attack on the capitol as, quote, "legitimate political discourse."

There was nothing legitimate about it. This is way worse than a violation of Reagan's 11th commandment, thou shall not speak ill of a fellow Republican. This is a national embarrassment. If one of the two parties is

embracing political violence now as legitimate discourse, we owe it to one another to tell the truth.

This is a national emergency. The Republican Party has now become a national emergency.

The party has chosen its course. It will not be Ronald Reagan. Forget, "Win one for the Gipper." It looks like they're going with democracy's Jack the Ripper.

And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:26]

ACOSTA: Throughout the show, we have been talking about former Vice President Mike Pence and the four words that took him nearly 400 days after the insurrection to say, "President Trump is wrong."

Long before that, Pence was hailing Trump, even comparing him to the late conservative icon, former President Ronald Reagan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: Before he was the great communicator, Ronald Reagan was the great disrupter. A conservative outsider who was vigorously opposed by a moderate establishment in his own party.

Today, I think we find ourselves in a very similar position. President Donald Trump is also one of a kind.

(CHEERING)

PENCE: He, too, disrupted the status quo. He challenged the establishment. He invigorated our movement. And he set a bold new course for America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Those comments coming after the January 6th insurrection.

Joining me now is Ron Reagan, son of the former president, Ronald Reagan.

Ron, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it so much.

Your father believed in a "Big Tent" Republican Party, a party where many different views could come together and coexist. Part of the reason why he had that massive landslide in 1984 over Walter Mondale.

When you look at what's happening in the party today, where Republicans are getting death threats or getting censured, like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, for pursuing the truth over Trump, what would you think your father would say about all of that now? RON REAGAN, SON OF FORMER PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: My father would be

profoundly disappointed. He would be ashamed of his Republican Party, which is no longer his Republican Party, of course.

And he would be deeply concerned, Jim. You said it in the last segment, this is a national emergency.

We only have two parties, practically speaking, in the country. And one of them has become undemocratic. One of them is tilting towards autocracy.

One of them is spouting, you know, Russian talking points at this juncture. This is, as you said, a national emergency.

And my father would have seen that very clearly, I'm sure, as many of us do.

ACOSTA: And one thing that is drastically different from the Reagan years is that there's a debate within the Republican Party about standing up to Russia in support of democracy in Ukraine. You just mentioned that a few moments ago.

Here's what happened when Republican Congressman Mike Turner went on Tucker Carlson's show.

It's a pretty remarkable exchange. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[15:45:02]

TUCKER: Who's got the energy reserves? Who's the major player in world affairs? Who's the potential counterbalance against China, which is the actual threat? Why are we taking Ukraine's side? Why don't we take Russia's side?

I'm totally confused.

REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH): Well, clearly, Ukraine is a democracy. Russia is an authoritarian regime that is seeking to impose its will upon a validly elected democracy in Ukraine. And we're on the side of democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Does not feel like morning in America to me, Ron.

Reagan's idea was to contain the Soviet Union. The idea of not standing up to Putin, just letting him invade wherever he wants, I guess is Tucker's view of this.

What are your thoughts on the foreign policy side of this and what seems to be happening inside the Republican Party right now?

REAGAN: Well, it's a shame that anybody is listening to a nitwit like Tucker Carlson. But just because he's a nitwit doesn't mean he's not dangerous.

That goes to some of his colleagues, shall we call them, in the Republican Party, elected officials, who seem to be embracing Vladimir Putin, who, let's be clear, is an autocratic thud.

This is a man who has his political enemies murdered. This is not somebody that my father, for instance, would have been comfortable dealing with.

He reached out to Gorbachev because he saw somebody he could deal with and he recognized a person bringing the Soviet Union into a soft landing as it collapsed.

I don't think these people really have much of a foreign policy sense at all.

And again, all of this poses a real danger to our country. Our country is terribly divided now. And there are a good number of people who would take Vladimir Putin's side over our own president.

And, you know, I don't want to throw around words like traitor or traitorism, but that's coming pretty close.

ACOSTA: No question about it.

And there was this uproar on the right when President Biden said he was going to pledge to nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court. And there was all of this whining on the right about this.

But your father pledged to nominate a woman when he was, you know, vying for the presidency and when he was presidential.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN: I'm announcing today that one of the first Supreme Court vacancies in my administration will be filled by the most qualified woman I can possibly find, one who meets the high standards I will demand for all court appointments.

It's time for a woman to sit among our highest jurists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: I just don't understand, what's the problem with saying something like that when you're a leader?

REAGAN: There's no problem saying something like that. And not too many Republicans complained about my father saying it back in 1981.

You know, there have been 115 Supreme Court justices in American history, 108 of them have been white men.

So I suppose there was a long running affirmative action program for Caucasian gentlemen going on. It wasn't until 1967, of course, that we had the first black man on

the court, and that was Thurgood Marshall. And it was 1981 before we got a woman on the court. You can make whatever you want of that,

But, you know, of course, President Biden wants to put a black woman on the court. It's time. That's fine.

You know, and his saying so is really unremarkable, given the history of things.

ACOSTA: And historians have pointed to the fact that your father built upon a southern strategy to win the White House in 1980.

I mean, this was one of the criticisms of your father that he appealed to white voters in places like rural Mississippi. But he could also articulate that the United States had a history of racism.

I want to play a clip of Ronald Reagan back in the 1980s and compare that to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis railing against the teaching of so-called Critical Race Theory in schools.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN: Until only a few decades ago, black Americans lived lives that were separate and unequal. Most were taught in segregated schools.

Too many could find only poor jobs, toiling for low wages. Blacks were barred from hotels and restaurants and made to use separate facilities and even forced to drink at separate water fountains.

In a nation that proclaimed liberty and justice for all, too many black Americans were living with neither.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We also have to protect people and protect our kids from some very pernicious ideologies that are trying to be forced upon them all across the country.

No taxpayer dollars should be used to teach our kids to hate our country or to hate each other.

(CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Your thoughts, Ron?

REAGAN: Well, you know, my father could have gotten in trouble, I suppose, today for saying what he said there in that clip in Florida because it might have made some white people uncomfortable.

[15:50:05]

That's meant to be against the law now, as I understand it, in Florida. You can't make white people uncomfortable by, oh, say, teaching history.

But he had it right, of course, exactly right. That is the truth of American history and the history of black people in America.

And if Ron DeSantis and others in the Republican Party don't like it, well, that's just too bad. They can write their own history books, I suppose, and teach in their own little, tiny schools.

But the truth needs to be spoken. And my father understood that and he did his best to do that.

Ron DeSantis, Donald Trump, most of the Republicans these days, well, you know, I'm not so sure.

ACOSTA: As your father might say, there they go again.

Ron Reagan, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.

REAGAN: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:24]

ACOSTA: The International Space Station, which has been orbiting above earth for more than 20 years, is set to retire by 2031.

NASA says it plans to bring it back to earth by crashing it into a remote part of the Pacific Ocean called Point Nemo.

A commercially operated space platform will replace the space station for scientific research. But NASA says, before this happens, it will use the space station to help with goals like sending people to Mars. Fascinating stuff.

All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)