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Pence Says Trump Is Wrong To Say Election Could Be Overturned; Trump Vows To Pardon Capitol Rioters If Reelected In 2024; Former KGB Officer On Putin's Mindset Amid Ukraine Tensions; Little-Known Medical Group Pushes Possibly Toxic Ivermectin; White House Finalizes Team To Guide Biden's Court Nominee; Thousands Join Trucker Protests Of Canada's Vaccine Mandates. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired February 05, 2022 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:06]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. The top stories on this Saturday night.

A new look inside the January 6th insurrection. The Justice Department releasing new videos, the police fighting off rioters armed with batons, a hockey stick, even crutches.

Plus, does Russia really want war over Ukraine? We're going to go inside the mind of Russian president Vladimir Putin with a former KGB agent who went to school with him.

And survival against the odds. Three fishermen, their boat sinks far off the New England coast, how long did they tread freezing water until help arrived?

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Inside the January 6th insurrection, the Justice Department has released new videos of the attack on the Capitol. And we want to warn you, many are filled with obscenities and shocking brutality.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pull the police out. Grab their hands and pull them out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, bro.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pull the police out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me down.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Here as you see the mob is shouting toward the front liners who were trying to breach the doors of the Capitol to physically pull the cops into the violent crowd.

In another video, we see rioters under a Trump 2020 flag finding law enforcement officers. One protester has apparently gotten hold of a police baton and is using it against them.

And now as you're about to see in a curse-filled rant from one protester, a reminder that Mike Pence was very much a target for not obeying Donald Trump's illegal demands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN NICHOLS, FORMER U.S. MARINE: I hearing the Pence just caved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

NICHOLS: Is that true? I'm hearing reports that Pence caved. I'm telling you, if Pence caved we're going to drag the motherfuckers through the streets. You fucking politicians are going to get fucking dragged to the streets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

NICHOLS: Because we're not going to have our fucking shit stolen. We're not going to have our election or country stolen. If we find out you politicians voted for it, we're going to drag your fucking ass through the street.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: By the way, that is Ryan Nichols, a former U.S. Marine from Texas. He was arrested and charged last year.

Well, Mike Pence pushes back and delivers his most forceful rebuke of his former boss to date. Thirteen months after the attack on the Capitol, Pence finally called out Donald Trump and his lies that as vice president he had the legal authority to overturn the election.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is at the White House for us tonight.

Jeremy, just the way that Mike Pence was so direct. This seemed to catch everyone by surprise. We covered the White House, the Trump White House together. And incrementally since then, Mike Pence has said things against Trump and that, you know, it was un-American what he was suggesting, but this was his most forceful rebuke yet.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question about it. We have heard Vice President Pence previously say that he and Donald Trump will never see eye to eye as it relates to the events of January 6th, but that is really as far as former Vice President Mike Pence has gone, up until yesterday.

In a speech at the Federalist Society event outside of Orlando, Florida, the former vice president delivering a stinging rebuke, certainly the most forceful, most aggressive rebuke of former President Trump, specifically responding to those comments from the former president arguing that Mike Pence could have overturned the results of the election. Here's the vice president yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: I heard this week that President Trump said I had the right to overturn the election. President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs to the American people, and the American people alone. And frankly, there is no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president. Under the Constitution I had no right to change the outcome of our election.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And those words are remarkable and notable, not only because it's the furthest that Pence has ever gone in criticizing Trump and in pushing back on his claims that he could have overturned the election on January 6th.

But also because if you think about who Mike Pence is and how he conducted himself as vice president, he made an effort day in and day out, as you know well, Pam, to not show any daylight at all between himself and then President Trump, aligning himself in every single way down to even the mannerisms sometimes as they appeared in public.

The question of course is how does Pence move forward in a Republican Party? He was speaking in the Republican Party as it is today. He was speaking just hours after the RNC censured Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, the two members of Congress, Republicans, who were serving on the January 6th Commission, and there really does seem to be no lane in a Republican Party primary in 2024, for example, for somebody like Mike Pence who would push back on these lies that are being propagated about the 2020 election.

[19:05:08]

And that's why Pence is still threading a very, very thin needle. He is rebuking the former president but you are not hearing him there call out all of the false allegations of fraud that we have been hearing about the 2020 election.

As for former President Trump, we did get two statements from him pushing back on Mike Pence, not going after him as forcefully as you might think but making clear that Pence's position was not an automatic conveyer, arguing once again that he could have changed the results on January 6th even though of course he could not have according to any legal scholar who you ask and members of Congress -- Pam.

BROWN: In some ways Trump's statement was equally shocking as, again, to reporters who used to cover the Trump White House just in how he didn't go after Pence in the way that we may have expected and the way that he has gone after other critics who have said he was wrong in the past.

All right, Jeremy Diamond live from the White House for us tonight. Thank you so much.

Well, Donald Trump is having a credibility problem with some of the very people who risked their freedom over his big lie. Several January 6th protesters are facing federal charges over the Capitol attack say they no longer believe his promises. Even his recent pledge to pardon the rioters if he's reelected in 2024.

CNN crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz explains.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Those graphic videos come from criminal cases showing criminal defendants including one who is in jail for assaulting police and fighting his charge. So that is the political discourse a year ago. Now former President Donald Trump is talking about pardoning January 6th rioters if he returns to power.

Justice producer Hannah Rabinowitz and I talked to several defense attorneys this week representing defendants like these, some who were accused of serious crimes and some who've already pleaded guilty, and they say Trump's words right now are largely theatrics, political theater.

So, for one, Trump is no longer president. So he no longer has pardon power. When he was president, people who were arrested for committing crimes on January 6th asked him to pardon them. He had 14 days left in office. He didn't do it. So now many of these cases are already over or will see their conclusions within the year. That means there will be guilty pleas, trials, sentencing, some defendants will have served years in jail by the time we have the next presidential election.

As one defense attorney told us this week no help is coming. So that's the criminal matters. But remember, Pam, there still is an ongoing investigation on Capitol Hill. The House Select Committee is calling witnesses to testify under subpoena and if they don't, one consequence could be a criminal contempt charge. That would mean a witness could face prosecution in court, a conviction like that could theoretically be pardoned.

Representative Elaine Luria who sits on the House Select Committee, she was speaking about Trump's pardon remarks on Friday with CNN with a clear concern he could motivate witnesses not to speak. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): If someone who, you know, is sort of waving out there that if, you know, I'm president in the future, I'm going to pardon you, you know, someone who could be, you know, right now thinking I need to do the right thing, I need to, you know, state the facts and to potentially plead guilty to the criminal actions that I have. If they think that there's a way in the future to get off from any consequences from their actions, it could certainly color what they do right now.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So there are a lot of moving parts here both politically and legally -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for that. Deployment of U.S. Army troops arrived in Poland today. The first

American forces sent to reinforce NATO allies in Eastern Europe. That's as Russia continues to ramp up military tension on its border with Ukraine.

This is Ukraine's second largest city. Thousands of people taking to the streets today with some saying stop Russian aggression. New reporting from the "New York Times" says portions of the Russian military on the border have reached, quote, "full combat strength," citing Ukrainian generals.

Now, so far, all diplomatic efforts to persuade Russia to back down have failed. So what is Putin's next move? What's going on with Putin? What is he thinking? What's driving his decisions?

My next guest has some unique insight. Yuri Shvets is a former Russian spy who studied alongside Putin at the KGB Institute.

Yuri, thank you very much for joining us. So do you see a Russian invasion into Ukraine as imminent? The White House has used that word a few times, has since backed off. Is there still a chance Putin could pull back from the border?

YURI SHVETS, FORMER KGB FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER ON UKRAINE- RUSSIA: Well, Pamela, thank you for having me. I believe that Putin is bluffing. We need to understand that this story about Putin being an intelligence officer in the KGB is all fake news. He never made it to the intelligence service. He was found unqualified.

[19:10:03]

So in the KGB, he was not involved in any meaningful KGB style operation. All of his modus operandi comes from his experience in the first half of the '90s in St. Petersburg, in gangsters war. At that time the situation in the city was similar to what was happening in Chicago in the '30s. One gang was against another gang, and Putin was in the middle. So his actual real modus operandi is that of a gangster, and his main weapon, he weaponized this, this is bluff.

Putin is bluffing. The reason of what he is doing is domestic. He needs to reinstall himself in 2024 as the president for life of the Russian Federation. Just six months ago, they were talking about possible transition but the latest developments in Kazakhstan, where Nazarbayev, President Nazarbayev tried to do this transition and then lost everything, so it sends a strong signal to Putin that the only guarantee for his personal safety, for everything he has done so far is to stay in power forever.

And this is the reason why he came up with this military idea of ultimatum, to NATO, to the United States. His objective are as follows. If he gets something in response from the United States or NATO, some kind of small, even a small concession, then the Russian mass media resources which in the country are totally controlled by the Kremlin, would tell the people, look, this is the statesman who won Cold War two. And he will be made the president for life. If it doesn't work, if he doesn't have any meaningful concessions,

then he would keep up pressure below threshold of major conflict, and then the mass media would say to the people, look, the situation is pretty intense, and you don't change forces in the mainstream, so let's reelect our dear Vladimir Putin yet for another six or 12 years or whatever it is. So this is his strategy. He's bluffing.

Deep in his heart, he is a coward because whenever something serious happens in Russia, some kind of crisis, even small minor crisis, he goes under cover for three, four days. He is nowhere to be seen. And he shows up when the crisis is over.

BROWN: So let me just ask you --

SHVETS: So this is the --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I want to be sure to ask this question because you say he is bluffing at the same time this week the State Department warned that Russia's planning a false flag operation against Ukraine using graphic video and crisis actors to potential justify an invasion.

What's your take on that? We have not seen any direct evidence of this, but do you think that is something Putin would be doing?

SHVETS: This is totally fits in what I'm saying, that his second option is to keep pressure under a threshold of a major intervention. And the information I am having basically fits into what the State Department said. My information is this. Just I think it was January 27th the guy whose name is Yevgeny Prigozhin, he is known as Putin's cook, besides a chef, besides he is known as the owner of Wagner Group.

This is a mercenary group but it is actually controlled by the Russian military intelligence. This is a hitman. They were involved in 2014 in the annexation of Crimea, in military actions in Donbass, and then right now they are throughout Africa. So about 10 days ago, all these guys from Africa, dozens of them, were rapidly moved to north -- to eastern Ukraine, and Prigozhin came secretly to the same area.

I believe that this is a major source of concern. This is -- they're cooking something, and given the reputation of these guys, they're killers, they're assassins. I'm not sure that it, along the line of fake movie, but apparently, they are preparing a nasty provocation.

BROWN: OK.

SHVETS: But again, this is not for a major conflict. All out invasion. I believe this is just to keep the pressure on.

[19:15:09]

BROWN: OK. Yuri Shvets, thank you. That is not information CNN has verified but we would like to talk to you more about what you just relayed here on the show. Thank you very much for your time tonight. SHVETS: Thank you for having me, Pamela. Thank you.

BROWN: Well, still ahead, the FDA says Ivermectin doesn't help against COVID, but a group of doctors continues to prescribe the dangerous and unproven therapy. "USA Today" Adriana Rodriguez and Dr. Jonathan Reiner both join me next to understand, help us make sense why this is happening and why it needs to stop.

Plus, truck drivers in Canada want vaccine mandates removed so they are swarming the streets for a second straight weekend. Is their protest working?

Plus the wife of a Supreme Court justice now facing renewed scrutiny, and her husband faces questions about the potential conflict of interest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:12]

BROWN: The death toll from COVID-19 in the United States has reached a tragic milestone, 900,000. The announcement came Friday and President Biden said each soul is irreplaceable.

We are less than two years into the global pandemic. It was officially declared on March 11th, 2020, and you can see here the recent surge in the number of daily deaths as the Omicron variant spread across the country. Thankfully for now, the number of new cases has fallen, and experts say that means the number of new deaths should also fall. And slowly but surely, the number of people getting vaccinated is rising.

Despite the availability of life-saving vaccines and boosters, anti- vacc Americans continue to ask their doctors for unproven and sometimes dangerous remedies, and they're getting help from a little- known national group of physicians called the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance. Its members are aggressively pushing Ivermectin as a wonder drug against COVID-19. That is not true based on the science.

Joining me now with more is Adrianna Rodriguez, "USA Today" health reporter, and CNN medical analyst, Dr. Jonathan Reiner.

So before we get started, I went to the FDA Web site and here's what it says. Ivermectin, which is primarily used to treat animals, is approved for human cases in these cases. In tablet form to treat some intestinal parasitic worms and its topical form to treat head lice and skin conditions. Other uses are not approved.

So, Adrianna, I want to go to you first. You wrote an article about this group, the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance. They see themselves as heroic doctors fighting for freedom. What kind of momentum are they building?

ADRIANNA RODRIGUEZ, MEDICAL REPORTER, USA TODAY: Well, thank you so much for having me, Pamela. So based on my reporting, the FLCCC alliance is a group of physicians that based on contradictory data believe that Ivermectin is effective in treating COVID-19, and their impact is that, you know, doctors are looking to them for guidance. And are seeking their guidance and following their protocol in prescribing Ivermectin for COVID-19 patients.

BROWN: So, Dr. Reiner, to you, Adrianna's article cited data showing that calls to poison control centers about Ivermectin have spiked dramatically since it started being touted as a COVID cure, up 212 percent from January 1st to September 21st of last year. How reckless is it for these doctors to be pushing this drug like this for this use?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, it's reckless for a couple of reasons, Pamela. It's not just reckless because in the wrong dose, this drug, like any drug can hurt you, and Ivermectin certainly can, but also people who use drugs like Ivermectin tend to not use vaccines, so they look to these drugs as sort of a miracle cure, and in fact it's been touted by the leaders of that organization as a miraculous drug despite the fact that it's not.

What people need to understand is that there are all kinds of drugs which in the lab seem to have certain effect. Ivermectin in the lab seemed to have an anti-SARS-CoV-2 property, but then when trialed in human beings do not work. Hydroxychloroquine was one such drug, and you know, the highway is littered with the wreckage of all kinds of drugs in the lab looked good but when trialed in human beings don't work. And Ivermectin does not appear to work.

BROWN: Adrianna, this pro-Ivermectin group is also pushing legislation in several states to force acceptance of it as a legitimate COVID treatment. You write that in Indiana, one GOP lawmaker has filed a bill that would not only allow doctors and registered nurses to write a standing order for Ivermectin, it would prohibit pharmacies from providing information discouraging its use for COVID-19, right?

RODRIGUEZ: Right, yes, and health experts tell me, I mean, this can be very dangerous just because then patients won't be protected by civil suits or if their doctor does any danger to them or any harm.

BROWN: So is there any indication this group has a financial incentive with prescribing Ivermectin for patients who want it to treat COVID, Adrianna?

RODRIGUEZ: That's a really good question. That's a little outside of my reporting. What I have found out, though, is that they do have a list, sort of like a directory of providers that they say do follow their protocol.

[19:25:05]

And most of those providers do have telemedicine Web sites that I've looked through, and they do charge some sort of fee sometimes to consult before prescribing the Ivermectin to COVID patients.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Reiner, I want to go to you because before we let you go, we have to just talk about the fact that the U.S. has now surpassed 900,000 deaths as a result of the pandemic. If you look at the charts the White House was showing back in March of 2020 we are now closer to what they predicted would happen with no intervention.

How did we get the numbers so wrong? How did the White House, I should say, get the numbers so wrong?

REINER: Well, I don't think anyone could predict that if our scientists and our pharmaceutical companies in conjunction produced a truly miraculous drug, a vaccine that could almost abolish the risk of dying from this vaccine that we wouldn't be able to get Americans to take it, and the inescapable conclusion is that we are very bad at educating our population.

There's a lot of vaccine denialism, and if you consider, which I do, being fully vaccinated is a full prime course plus a boost, only about 27 percent of Americans are fully vaccinated. 27 percent of Americans have received a vaccine plus a boost. And that's why we've had so many deaths. And what's shocking is that we in June of 2021, we had 600,000 deaths.

We've had 300,000 deaths in a time period when vaccines have been available for every adult in this country. They were made widely available a month before that, so 300,000 people have died. Almost all of them unvaccinated in a period of time when any adult in this country could have been vaccinated. That's why we are where we are today.

BROWN: All right. We'll leave it there. Dr. Jonathan Reiner, Adrianna Rodriguez, thank you both.

RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.

REINER: Thank you.

BROWN: Nearly 13 months later, was it too late? Former Vice President Pence finally calls out his old boss. Chris Cillizza is here to talk about it as the Republican Party says January 6th was just legitimate political discourse before playing clean up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:32:04]

BROWN: Mike Pence says Donald Trump is flat wrong for saying his Vice President had the legal authority to overturn the 2020 election. It is a simple yet remarkable statement from a man who rarely opposed his former boss in public.

Yesterday, speaking to a crowd of conservatives, Pence went on to implore Republicans to re-embrace the Constitution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With the Constitution, I had no right to change the outcome of our election.

Men and women, if we lose faith in the Constitution, we won't just lose elections, we will lose our country. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now is CNN politics reporter and editor-at-large, Chris Cillizza.

Hi there, Chris.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Hey, Pam.

BROWN: So, look, there were a couple surprising things here. The fact that Pence did that, and then as you know, Trump quickly firing back at Pence with a statement of his own reading in part, "I was right and everyone knows it. A great opportunity lost, but not forever. In the meantime, our country is going to hell."

Now, the fact that he fired back with a statement wasn't surprising, but it was the fact that we didn't see a more vicious attack from the former President. What do you make of that?

CILLIZZA: Yes, I mean, it speaks to how low the bar is, Pam, that when he says our country is going to hell, that we're all like, that wasn't too bad. Yes, I mean, I think we have to acknowledge that any other politician who even came close to this kind of rhetoric, we would say: Oh, my gosh. They've gone nuclear.

But yes, I agree with you. I mean, I think Donald Trump, it is not totally proven that Donald Trump can take a punch. He can dole them out, we know that. It's not clear he can take them.

That said, politically speaking, and I'm only talking politically, what Mike Pence did was dumb. If Mike Pence wants to run for President in 2024 or 2028. Unfortunately, the only road that that goes through is people who support Donald Trump. The people within the Republican Party who are anti-Trump, we can name -- Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger -- but the fact that we can name them means there's not enough of them.

I think, the only thing that explains why Mike Pence did what he did is he actually believes it, which he should be absolutely commended for because he has to know that politically speaking, he is just not in the majority where his party is, and I think that by the way is a sad thing, but it is a reality.

BROWN: It is. There are more important things than politics. I mean, his --

CILLIZZA: Yes, this is principle, Pam like there is --

BROWN: This is principle.

CILLIZZA: Yes, there is nothing --

BROWN: This is country over party.

CILLIZZA: Yes, there is nothing to be gained by Mike Pence, going after Donald Trump and saying he is wrong, I'm right. We have to get back to the Constitution. Of course, that message should make sense to any Republican, and 10 years ago, it would have. But in this moment, that message is a political loser, and stunning as that is to say, that is a fact.

BROWN: And also because of the dichotomy that happened yesterday on the same day the Republican National Committee voted to censure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger essentially doing Trump's bidding and using some stunning language in the resolution. "Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger are participating in a Democratic-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse."

[19:35:17]

BROWN: To which Cheney responded with a video of the rioters saying, "This was January 6. This is not legitimate political discourse." Now, the R.N.C. is trying to clean up saying that it didn't mean that the people who were involved in the violence, it was talking about people not involved in the violence.

CILLIZZA: I mean, you can say -- you can call it whatever you like, lipstick on a pig. You know, the reality of the situation here is that when you say it was legitimate political discourse, when people think of January 6, they don't think of all the peaceful part of it. They think of the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

It's stunning, and I don't know another word, I feel like I use that word all the time, but it is stunning to me that the party would make it so clear that it is now a cult of personality, as opposed to a national political institution organized around a set of principles. That's what both parties had long been.

You can take issue with what the Republicans believe, what Democrats believe. But generally speaking, it's a group of like-minded people coalesced around a set of policy principles. That's not what the current Republican Party is.

It's a group of people coalesced around one person and beholden to that person's whims. Many of which I will know, Pam, aren't conservative at all. Liz Cheney is one of the most conservative by voting record, members within the Republican Caucus. The idea that somehow she is not a real Republican, she's considerably more conservative in terms of voting record and policies than Donald John Trump.

But again, we're not talking about a party coalesced around common ideas. We're talking about a cult of personality, and that's the difference here.

BROWN: Unfortunately, we're at a time. You did write an article about the other side of the aisle, Biden scoring much needed political wins, what that means for him and his administration, how long he needs to keep this momentum going.

Chris Cillizza, we're going to have to have that conversation at a later date.

CILLIZZA: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: Thank you so much, Chris.

CILLIZZA: Happy to do it. You bet.

BROWN: You should all check out that article though from Chris Cillizza.

The job of a Supreme Court Justice, it is a lifetime appointment. But what about their lifetime partners? Could their influence be a concern? That's next?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:41:52]

BROWN: While we wait for President Biden to announce his pick to replace Stephen Breyer on the Supreme Court, Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis is criticizing the Justices appointed by his own party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I kind of feel that it's always our side where you will have somebody just not have the fortitude or the backbone to faithfully apply the law and Constitution in situations in which it will not be popular with the elite rung of our society, where you will get smeared by corporate media, where you will have law professors, you know screeching and all this other stuff.

And you know, someone like Justice Thomas and Scalia -- they didn't give a damn what any of those people thought and I think that they were better Justices as a result.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: You heard him praise Justice Clarence Thomas there. Tonight, the political activities of Thomas's wife are under scrutiny. Jenny Thomas's activism stands out even in highly politicized Washington, and it raises questions about potential conflicts of interest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice over): Jenny Thomas has been an outspoken passionate conservative activist for decades.

JENNY THOMAS, ACTIVIST: The second Reagan Revolution is growing.

BROWN (voice over): Most recently, signing on to this open letter from conservatives to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy denouncing the January 6 Committee. One month after that letter, Justice Thomas was the lone public dissent in a case involving the January 6 Committee, no other justices indicated they would have granted former President Trump's request to block the document handover from the National Archives to the committee. Thomas provided no explanation for his dissent. PROF. STEVE VLADECK, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SCHOOL OF LAW: There are surely substantive reasons consistent with his prior jurisprudence why Justice Thomas dissented from the Court's decision to not help President Trump in that case, but for folks who are already skeptical of the Court, for folks who already view the Court as a deeply partisan and political institution, the fact that Justice Thomas is the sole public dissenter there, given what we know about Jenny Thomas's involvement, I think sets off some alarm bells.

BROWN (voice over): Jenny Thomas's ties to former President Donald Trump and his aides go back years, including submitting a list of supposedly disloyal White House aides directly to Trump.

Just before the January 6 riot, Jenny Thomas sympathized with the Stop the Steal rally goers, writing, quote: "God bless each of you standing up or praying." She later made clear these were posted before the violence at the U.S. Capitol.

Given the appearance of a conflict, critics say Justice Thomas should have recused himself in the case involving the January 6 Committee because of his wife's activism. Her defenders say she has every right to lead her own life and see no reason why that should have a bearing on her husband, that she is on the party in a case or financially invested. There is no indication she has a financial interest in cases before the High Court.

JENNIFER STEFANO, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM FELLOW: Clarence Thomas does not hold the views he holds because of any one person. Justices are going to have spouses that have the right to have opinions and be involved and engaged and I trust Justice Thomas and other members on the Supreme Court bench to do what is right.

[19:45:15]

BROWN (voice over): But the debate has continued because of Jenny Thomas's ties to another issue before the Court this term. She sits on the advisory board of a conservative group, National Association Scholars. That organization submitted two legal briefs to the Supreme Court in favor of plaintiffs challenging affirmative action and admissions at two universities.

Peter Wood is president of the organization and says Jenny Thomas played no role in the legal briefs.

PETER WOOD, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL SCHOLARS ASSOCIATION: As far as I know, she doesn't even know that we filed such briefs. I don't talk about those sorts of issues with her.

BROWN (voice over): But Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington is calling for Justice Thomas's recusal.

NOAH BOOKBINDER, PRESIDENT, CREW: in terms of the best practice where his wife is closely affiliated with an organization that has taken a clear position, it seems clear to us that his impartiality could be questioned. BROWN (voice over): The Federal law states quote: "Any Justice, Judge or Magistrate Judge of the United States shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned," end quote. But it's up to the individual Justice to decide if there is a conflict.

For his part, Justice Thomas has recused himself 32 times in the last 28 years, according to Gabe Roth's group, Fix the Court, but never because of his wife's activism.

In 2018, Jenny Thomas interviewed her husband for "The Daily Caller," where he talked about his dedication to independence of thought.

JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: As a Judge, you don't get to be on one team or the other. You have to think independently in order to live up to the oath that your take.

BROWN (voice over): Some experts think Justices ought to explain their decisions to recuse or to not recuse more often in order for more transparency.

Jenny Thomas's activism stands in contrast to the spouses of other justices. Chief Justice John Roberts' wife Jane retired from practicing law and resigned from a leadership role with an anti- abortion group.

When late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg became a Circuit Court Judge, her husband left his law firm.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Now, advocates of reform continue their calls for more transparent and stricter recusal roles. Jenny Thomas declined CNN's request for an interview and declined to comment for this story.

Up next, on this Saturday, a trucker protest over vaccine mandates now when its second weekend and spreading across Canada, what they're calling for and why many Canadians are asking for the government to do more to end the rallies.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:52:19]

BROWN: For the second weekend in a row, truckers in Canada are protesting the country's COVID vaccine mandates. Truckers and demonstrators are protesting in the streets.

CNN's Paula Newton has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The sound is deafening. Yet protesters are demanding to be heard.

All day long, and at all hours of the night, those with the so-called Freedom Convoy say they're staying put until vaccine mandates are dropped, the masks come off and life returns to the way it was.

JAMES MACDONALD, PROTESTER: This whole event has gone beyond just vaccines and it is now about the entire ordeal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're asking for our freedom. That's all we want.

NEWTON (voice over): So they've been free, free to park Big Rigs right next to the Prime Minister's Office, free to set up camp in front of the country's National Parliament.

NEWTON (on camera): As angry and frustrated as these protesters are, residents say they feel like hostages and they want police to do more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand the police force does not want to directly intervene for fear of violence but it feels like we've been left alone a little bit.

NEWTON (voice over): So desperate was this woman, she appealed directly to the protesters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The downtown residents, children, elderly are suffering.

NEWTON (voice over): They heard her, but they're not listening.

It seems to anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is nothing but disruptive. They are using, they're claiming their freedom while I can't even like hear anything, I can't even hear myself.

NEWTON (voice over): Ottawa Police say they have learned much in the past week, especially after reports of assaults, intimidation, and allegations of hate speech and symbols.

CHIEF PETER SLOLY, OTTAWA POLICE SERVICE: Our goal is to end the demonstration.

NEWTON (voice over): To try and do that, they have called in more reinforcements moving to what they call a surge and contain strategy, but the Police Chief warns --

SLOLY: This remains as it was from the beginning, an increasingly volatile and increasingly dangerous demonstration.

NEWTON (voice over): And it is spreading like a contagion itself. Right across the country, a handful of protests now including a border blockade between Alberta and Montana.

And now Canada's largest city, Toronto, closing a large section in front of the provincial legislature this weekend as truckers descend and more worrying, closing off the adjacent hospital row where exhausted healthcare workers carry on battling COVID.

[19:55:09] CHIEF JAMES RAMER, TORONTO POLICE: Anyone who attempts to disrupt hospital access and routes of emergency operations, including ambulance, fire, or police will be subject to strict enforcement.

NEWTON (voice over): And yet both police and political leaders are warning this now resembles an occupation with no quick or easy end.

Paula Newton, CNN, Ottawa.

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BROWN: The G.O.P. formally censuring two of its own even suggesting January 6 was quote, "legitimate political discourse" before a plain clean up. We're going to dig into the state of the G.O.P. right now with former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent. He is going to join us for that conversation right after this quick break. Don't miss it.

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