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Russian Officers Have Doubts Over Invasion; Macron and Putin Meet; Biden Meets with German Chancellor; Peng Shuai says Allegations were a Misunderstanding. National Archives had to Retrieve Trump Records; Doug Heye is Interviewed about Trump's White House Records; Protest over Deadly Police Shooting in Minneapolis. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired February 07, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:25]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Breaking news this morning. New reporting from myself and colleagues indicates that some Russian officers are concerned about a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. That's what we're learning from intercepted communications obtained by the U.S.

GOLODRYGA: Plus, any moment now Russian President Vladimir Putin is sitting down with French President Emmanuel Macron. Soon, President Biden will be hosting German Chancellor Olaf Scholz at the White House, as Germany remains open to sending reinforcements to NATO's eastern flank.

SCIUTTO: And the human cost of war. Experts warn the civilian toll in Ukraine could be dire. A new assessment suggests tens of thousands of civilians could be killed while millions could end up as refugees.

We begin this morning with CNN White House reporter Natasha Bertrand.

Natasha, so these intercepted communications from Russia seem to show doubts within Russian military leaders about the cost and the difficulty of a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Jim. So what we're told is that U.S. intelligence has intercepted these communications from Russian military and intelligence officers that suggest that they are thinking that they may be in over their heads here. That in the last several weeks and months, these officers have been grumbling about perhaps not having enough of an understanding of what the actual gameplan is and, of course, being very disillusioned by the fact that the west has exposed much of what Russia has been planning there.

Now the -- a source familiar with the intelligence did tell us that these concerns do appear to have run up the chain to senior Kremlin leadership. And that's why the Russian planning has evolved over the last several months the way that it has. Because what senior officials are also telling us, and they told us this over the weekend, is that Russia has about 70 percent of the forces amassed along Ukraine's borders that it would need to launch this kind of full-scale invasion and perhaps even to take Ukraine's capital, Kyiv. And they say that if that happened, if there was this large-scale land and air envision, then Kyiv could actually fall within 48 hours.

So, this is, obviously, one of the more dire assessments but it is very ambitious. And this is why we're told some of these people on the ground, these Russian officials on the ground, in the military and intelligence units, are kind of questioning, well, do we have what we need to pull this off, essentially? This is a very grand operation that Russian President Vladimir Putin has allegedly been planning here. Of course, the Russians deny that they are planning any kind of major incursion.

But people on the ground see it differently. And what U.S. intelligence has been able to glean from those conversations suggest that there are some doubts among the officials there.

GOLODRYGA: Natasha Bertrand, thank you.

And now for more on these two major meets today in Washington and in Moscow.

CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson and CNN White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond join us now.

And, Nic, let's begin with you because Macron really is trying to take the lead European role here in hoping to resolve this crisis, possibly by suggesting a way to address all parties' concerns. What can we expect to hear today?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, what the Kremlin is saying is that they don't expect to break through today. I think that's sort of the headline here at the moment. They're saying they expect the conversations to focus on the issue of de-escalation, the calls for Russia to deescalate. And certainly, that's one of the things Macron's bringing to the table.

And then the other point being the Russians' main point, which is they haven't had their security demands met yet. They haven't heard anything that gives them any confidence about that. Of course they've been told, no, you're not going to get your security demands over NATO rejecting Ukraine or NATO rolling back to 1997 lines. So, this is where the Kremlin is expecting things to focus.

Macron, for his part, yes, is coming to the table to try to get Putin to show de-escalation or at least remove the concerns that he is engaged in the activity that could lead to a potential invasion. He's also going to try to get the government in Kyiv to speak to the separatists, the pro-Russian separatists in the eastern part of the country.

And that other piece that I think you're talking about there, that Macron wants to bring to the table, is a new security arrangement for Europe. And under that, he means, that the European Union gets a bigger foreign policy and defense, say, sort of within the auspices of NATO.

[09:05:01]

But that's a gray area. And I think it's potentially in that area, potentially the pressure that he can put on the leadership in Ukraine, that might seem attractive to Putin.

But the gap is massive. The security guarantees Russia wants versus pulling back the, you know, the Russian troops and NATO's position and the U.S. position on that already, that gap's massive.

SCIUTTO: I mean Russia's demand for security guarantees involve other countries giving up their own security concerns here, right, because it's been a whole host of countries to the east who have asked for these associations, who have asked for a membership in NATO because of the threat from Russia. I mean that's a fundamental part of this.

Jeremy, Germany has been less vocal in its criticism of Russia than others but still unified with NATO in terms of opposing further military action. What is the hope to be accomplished out of the face- to-face between Biden and Scholz today?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Jim, I mean, listen, Germany and the United States, as well as the other NATO allies, are unified in the notion that they do not want Russia to invade Ukraine. They have all been clear, including Germany, that there will be a high cost to pay if indeed Russia moves forward with that invasion.

Yet, at the same time, Germany has also been less vocal, as you said, about confronting Russia. And also most reluctant perhaps among the NATO allies in terms of sending lethal aid to Ukraine. There were, of course, those 5,000 helmets that they sent, but no lethal aid.

They have blocked Estonia from sending German-made howitzers to Ukraine, as well. And Germany, of course, says that that stems from their own arms control policy.

So, the goal today from President Biden will be to try and solidify this united front between Germany and the United States, and NATO more broadly, against a potential Russian invasion. And the biggest question over how exactly that will unfold is over this Nord Stream 2 pipeline. The United States has made very, very clear that that Nord Stream 2 pipeline will not, in any way, move forward should Russia choose to move forward and invade Ukraine. We heard the national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, make that point clearly just yesterday on one of those Sunday shows.

But Germany's chancellor, Olaf Scholz, has been less clear about that. In an interview with "The Washington Post" just yesterday, he wouldn't provide a direct answer as to whether or not it will move forward, talking instead about strategic ambiguity.

But, of course, it is very clear that that pipeline is on the line here and whether or not President Biden can get his German counterpart to sing from the same tune is one of the major questions today. But they will talk about this robust sanction package moving forward,

trying to get more details on what the unified U.S., German, NATO response will look like should Russia indeed choose to move forward with an invasion.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, that strategic ambiguity quote from "The Washington Post" caught my attention, as well, Jeremy, and it comes at a time when he says that it's going to leave Russia scratching their head about what the ultimate cost would be.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Russia knows what the ultimate cost would be. It would mean that they would not be able to proceed with Nord Stream 2. So that was a big puzzling to read.

SCIUTTO: Exactly.

GOLODRYGA: Jeremy --

SCIUTTO: I was going to -- I was going to raise that too because that -- the U.S. does, at least, seem to have agreement on that, if Russia were to further invade Ukraine on cancelling that lucrative Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

GOLODRYGA: Maybe we'll --

SCIUTTO: Jeremy, Nic -- sorry, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: I was going to say, maybe we'll hear something more definitive from him today on that point.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Jeremy, Nic, once again, thank you both.

And don't miss a CNN exclusive. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz sitting down with CNN's Jake Tapper. That is only on CNN today at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.

SCIUTTO: Listen to this next story because it's been alarming throughout.

Chinese tennis star Peng Shuai, who disappeared from public view for weeks after accusing a retired Chinese official of sexual assault, is now saying the accusation was a misunderstanding. And now again denying the assault has happened.

You know, I watched this story. I've spent a lot of time in China, Bianna. To be clear, China has enormous capabilities and willingness to silence its critics through a whole host of pressure campaigns. And it's just a major question here as to what happened behind the scenes.

GOLODRYGA: And she wasn't alone, by the way, when she gave those statements during an interview with a French sports newspaper. Peng also revealed her professional tennis career may be over. CNN's Selina Wang is live in Beijing this morning.

And, Selina, you spoke with the French journalist who interviewed Shuai. What else did he say? Obviously, we know that there was a lot of pressure because they weren't the only ones in the room here.

SELINA WANG, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. The journalist for this French outlet, he made it clear to me that this was a carefully managed interview. And he understood going into this that she may not be able to speak freely.

As you say, they were joined by a Chinese official from the Olympic committee who acted as the translator. He was required to submit the questions he was going to ask beforehand. And on top of that, was required to publish the interview as a Q&A, not as a story with analysis.

[09:10:01]

He said when they were talking about sports, she was very open and comfortable. But when he started asking about the sexual assault allegations, she turned clearly cautious, and she started to give these brief answers. She also, in this hour-long interview, said that she may be retiring from the sport. She said, quote, if you take my age, she's 36 years old, my multiple surgeries and the pandemic which forced me to stop playing for so long, I think it will be very hard for me to get back to the level I was at physically speaking.

Now, Peng has at this point now twice publicly walked back her original sexual assault claims. But for rights groups, these interviews, these statements, they do not allay their concerns. They say, we still do not know whether she was coerced into making these statements to make this scandal go away.

And also around the time that this interview was released, the IOC said that Thomas Bach (ph) had had a dinner with Peng Shuai here in Beijing. But the IOC did not give any information. No photos, no detailed information on what was discussed. Rights groups have slammed the IOC for what they say is legitimizing the Chinese authorities' efforts to silence Peng.

Of course, this comes after, back in November, when she had made that long, emotional post on social media about how a former vice premiere, who was one of the most powerful leaders in China, she accused him of coercing her into sex. She, of course, disappeared for several weeks after that, later reemerged in what were seen as these carefully choreographed reappearances.

Jim. Bianna.

SCIUTTO: Just remarkable to watch. And she may have to end her career over it, possibly.

Selina Wang, thanks so much for covering.

Coming up next, a new report that former President Trump improperly took several boxes of sensitive White House documents to Mar-A-Lago. The National Archives had to go and get them. That's the law, by the way.

Plus, large protests in Minneapolis all weekend over the fatal police shooting of Amir Locke. It has sparked a new conversation about the use of no-knock warrants as they're known.

GOLODRYGA: Also ahead, Spotify refuses to pull joe Rogan from the air after a video surfaced highlighting more than 20 times where he used the "n" word on his podcast. Hear his apology coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:16:32]

GOLODRYGA: The National Archives had to head down to Mar-A-Lago to take back some White House documents former President Trump had apparently taken to Florida. According to "The Washington Post," Trump improperly removed multiple boxes from the White House.

SCIUTTO: To be clear, by law, all those records should have been turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration. They're presidential records.

CNN law enforcement correspondent Whitney Wild tracking the latest developments.

First of all, the details of what and what extent of documents the Trump White House took down there and what's their response to having not followed the law?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Right.

So they say, in this case, there wasn't -- it wasn't a nefarious purpose. They say that this box mostly contained things like mementos, you know, letters between world leaders, like the leaders of North Korea, Kim Jong-Un, for example.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WILD: The relevancy to the January 6th committee, though, in their investigation, is not clear.

But let's just go through some of the bullet points here of this great "Washington Post" story. Basically what "The Washington Post" is reporting again is that the Trump administration improperly removed these documents from the White House and took them down to Mar-A-Lago. The National Archives had to retrieve those records from Florida last month. Again, these were boxes of mementos, gifts, letters from world leaders. The Trump camp trying to create this narrative that this was just kind of all the -- I guess all the fun stuff, Jim. The stuff that would jog your memory, what it was really like at that moment.

SCIUTTO: A letter from the North Korean leader to the U.S. president is not a Christmas card from a fundraiser, right?

WILD: Exactly. Correct. Right. Right.

SCIUTTO: I mean, that's a presidential record.

WILD: Right. And it follows a pattern that we've seen over and over, and we've reported on for several months now, of people within the Trump administration blatantly disregarding their legal obligation to pass these records over to the National Archive.

CNN reported last month -- last week that there were documents that were regularly shredded. The National Archives retrieved documents that had to be put back together by staff members at the White House at that time who had put this together with tape. So that just gives you another example of the -- of the ways in which the Trump administration continued to sidestep this very real obligation to put forth presidential records. And the White House -- "The Washington Post" story rightly points out that there are, you know, a lot of national security risks with not putting forth these documents. It's -- you know, it could really hamper national security if a new administration is, as "The Post" pointed out, flying blind, as they move into their new roles. So.

GOLODRYGA: And let's be clear, a law very well could have been broken here. So, this may have been something that was done, you know, without intent or what have you. But, as you said, there was a pattern to how the president and how this administration handled these sensitive documents.

Whitney Wild, thank you.

Well, joining us now to discuss is Republican strategist and former RNC communication director, Doug Heye.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good morning.

GOLODRYGA: Doug, great to see you.

So, what is your reaction here? Clearly this, as we said, is a pattern of the presidents. Clearly breaking norms is a patter of the presidents. Possibly breaking laws may even be a pattern of the president. But this is the same man the who attacked Nancy Pelosi for ripping up the State of the Union Speech, right, and went after Hillary Clinton about her emails. Aside from the double-standard, do you see any consequence here ultimately for the president, former president?

HEYE: Well, I think we need to know more about exactly what happened and what intent was. But it's not any surprise that Donald Trump, who's operating in a lot of secrecy, would routinely rip up documents. I wouldn't be at all surprised, saying this somewhat facetiously, if we find out that he ripped it up and then put it in his mouth and swallowed it to make sure that nobody could read whatever note he just took.

[09:20:04]

SCIUTTO: And there are laws, as we noted, about preserving presidential records.

I do want to draw your attention and get your view of the words from Mike Pence, to say in so many words that Trump was wrong to say that Pence had the ability to overturn the election here. Now, that's a fact. That is the law.

HEYE: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But that is an utterance we have not heard from Pence and others, frankly, to say that so definitively.

You and I have talked many times, including on this broadcast.

HEYE: Yes.

SCIUTTO: If the bulk of the party is or was willing to split with Trump, particularly on January 6th, by and large has proven not to be. Somehow but by and large not. Do you see this as different?

It's potentially different because it's -- it's -- the president's vice president, somebody who was obviously in the room and then escorted out of the room as people were coming for him.

This is -- look, not just about the job of the vice president and constitutional roles. This is also about Mike Pence's life and death. And, you know, people were storming the Capitol, as we know, wanting him lynched. So he's going to take this in a more personal way. So it shouldn't be a big surprise that he's made this one step to not say he disagrees with the president, but to actually name him by name and say that he's wrong. It's just a question of will more Republicans follow that lead.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Well, and his comments came in the same day that the RNC described the events of January 6th as legitimate political discourse and censured the two Republicans on that committee investigating the January 6th insurrection.

HEYE: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Ultimately what does that say about the state of the party here that on the one hand you have Mike Pence saying the obvious, right, but being hailed for doing so and hearing this from the RNC itself?

HEYE: Well, as you know, I worked at the Republican National Committee in 2010 when Republicans took back the House of Representatives. So, a somewhat similar scenario to where we're at now. And one of the things I struggled with was, any time that we did anything that was self- inflicted, that took our eye off the ball, and our ball was to win back the house, to take back Democratic seats, that certainly is not what the focus was on this censure resolution. They're playing now in a primary, which is very unusual. You have to change the rules of the RNC to be able to do so. And then you're also doing something else. You're telling members of

Congress, Republican members, Democratic members, senators and, obviously, former Vice President Pence, that the attack that came on them really wasn't anything and is ultimately this Donald Trump jedi mind trick, if these are not the droids you're looking for, that we've seen time and time again. And it's troubling.

SCIUTTO: And you also are signaling those groups perhaps that they could do it again, right?

HEYE: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: That you're not calling it out as being illegal as it was.

It was interesting to hear Chris Christie say this week -- and in addition to criticizing a step like that, that not only will he run against Trump in 2024, if Trump does indeed run, but that he sees Mike Pence, Mike Pompeo as running as well.

We don't know, but do you find that credible that there would be a number of Republicans, including at that level, that would stand up to Trump in 2024 for the nomination?

HEYE: Sure. I think we could see some Republicans who have been critical of Donald Trump, like a Christie, maybe like a Pence, run. The reality though is, any Republican knows that Donald Trump is still the frontrunner. If he decides to run, he's the big dog in the Republican Party. There's no doubt about that. Also has well over $100 million in the bank. And it's why we haven't seen some of the more Trump acolytes step up and try and run at this point because they know, you know, Donald Trump is one thing, he doesn't give points, he only takes them away one at a time. And if you say that you're going to run and don't seed that ground to Trump immediately, he's going to mow you down.

SCIUTTO: Doug Heye, we've seen it, thanks so much for joining us.

HEYE: Any time. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, protesters in Minneapolis want the police officer who shot and killed Amir Locke while executing a no-knock warrant fired, also charge in his death. What the governor is saying about the future of no-knock warrants coming up.

And we're moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. U.S. stock futures all looking up to start the week as Wall Street hopes to ride the finish from last week. Markets closed slightly higher Thursday ahead of that strong January jobs report. The gains were still enough for all three major averages to hit fresh record highs.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:29:15]

SCIUTTO: Overnight, a caravan of cars protested the fatal police shooting of Amir Locke in Minneapolis. An officer shot and killed Locke last week while executing a no-knock warrant despite the fact that the 22-year-old was not the target of that warrant. The caravan of cars eventually stopped outside a home that is believed to belong to Minneapolis interim police chief.

GOLODRYGA: And downtown we saw protests throughout the weekend, calling for the officer involved to be fired and criminally charged.

Let's get to CNN's Adrienne Broaddus.

Adrienne, what are police saying about this, this morning?

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, it's more of what they are not saying. The Federation of Police in Minneapolis released a statement expressing its condolences for Amir Locke's family.

[09:30:01]

Also saying in part that officers are required to make split-second decisions.

Now, obviously, they're likely talking about