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Protest to Police Shooting in Minneapolis; No-Knock Warrant Debate; New Jersey Lifts Mask Mandate; Governors Push Biden Away from Pandemic; Rogan Apologizes for Racial Slurs. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired February 07, 2022 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Also saying in part that officers are required to make split-second decisions.
Now, obviously, they're likely talking about this incident involving Amir Locke and the debate over no-knock warrants. For those of you who are not familiar, a no-knock warrant gives an officer permission to enter your home or your apartment without announcing their presence before entering. Some folks in Minneapolis thought this policy had been banned after several other incidents in this city.
Mayor Frey has banned no-knock warrants temporarily now. But the state's governor says the legislators need to take action.
Listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): I'm sorry it took this tragedy, but there are voices now saying, across the political spectrum, that these are dangerous. They're dangerous for, as you saw in this case, a young man. They're dangerous for police. And we need to figure out what the best practice is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROADDUS: And later this afternoon Minneapolis' oversight committee, that's a branch of the city council, will hold a discussion on no- knock policies. They have extended the invitation to Mayor Frey. It's unclear if the mayor will attend. According to the city's news release, attorney Ben Crump, who represents the Locke family, will also be present.
And think about Amir's family. Unlike you and I, when we lose someone we love, we have the time and opportunity to grieve. We may take the day, week, heck, some of us take a month off of work. This family has not had that time to grieve. They've been in front of the cameras. They've been out over the weekend with protesters, telling us about the son they love and the son that they vow to get justice for.
Jim and Bianna.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Adrienne Broaddus, thanks so much.
Joining us now to discuss the law behind all this, former federal prosecutor, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams.
Elliot, good to have you on.
I mean there are two issues here, of course, police officers have to make difficult decisions in the moment. But there's the question of what brought them into that apartment, right? It's a no-knock warrant. And as it turned out, the person who was the target of that warrant was not in the room. Amir Locke was not the target. He ends up dead.
What is the justification for no-knock warrants and where does the law stand on these?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. The justification is that when there's a risk that an individual will, a, flee, b, destroy evidence or, c, pose a really serious risk to officers or frankly other people who might be around, police departments and communities have justified no-knock warrants.
The problem is that that ends up being a vast -- it's construed very broadly. And as we saw here, even jurisdictions in which people think that no-knock warrants are banned, all of the exceptions creep in.
So, what you had -- what you had here was a situation in which officers had one, went through and opened fire.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: What legal risks does the officer who actually fired at Amir, what does he face?
WILLIAMS: It's really hard to say that he is likely to face criminal charges here because if he -- just, look, we had a crash-course in Minnesota criminal law over the course of the last two years. This isn't -- you're not going to be able to charge with a depraved heart or killing in the context of committing a misdemeanor, like you had with Derek Chauvin, where over the course of nine minutes you saw the crime very slowly play out.
Here, what you had was exactly what the police officers were talking about, a split-second decision.
Now, the problem is the policy that allowed the officers to be there in the first place. And, frankly, the best aspect of this is those body cameras, which cast doubt on the police officers' narrative as to why they were there and the extent to which they announced themselves.
SCIUTTO: Well, let's play, if we can, just a clip. WILLIAMS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: And, by the way, this is difficult video to watch.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: We did, to be clear, edit out the moment after or up to the shot and after.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Have a look and I want to get your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police search warrant. Police search warrant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police search warrant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police search warrant. Police search warrant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Now, what police have focused on, and we don't have the freeze frame there, but you can see that Locke showed a gun.
Now, our understanding, I believe, is that gun was legal.
WILLIAMS: Right.
SCIUTTO: So, you have a no-knock warrant on bad information, it seems, right, because the right person wasn't in the room. That person has a legal weapon. They still end up dead.
I just see you have a confluence of so many laws here.
WILLIAMS: Right.
SCIUTTO: Gun laws, police warrant laws. So, you know, qualified immunity, right, how that factors in.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely, Jim. There's a few things going on.
Number one, as I understand it, the warrants are still sealed. So it's not clear what they were looking for or who they were going after or what they knew.
Now, what the police's claim was right out of the gate was that they loudly and repeatedly announced themselves before breaching the property.
[09:35:01] Well, that's -- that's undermined by that video. It seems that at the same time they knock, they say police and then just -- and then burst right in.
Now, certainly, you know, maybe -- who knows what happened before that. But the mere release of that video at least calls questions into the police narrative, if not disproves it totally.
And, again, that's the value of putting cameras on officers in situations like this.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Look, we heard there's wide-ranging support for some sort of reform to these policies.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: So, if there's any room for optimism, hopefully it is there.
Elliot Williams, thank you, as always.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, New Jersey's governor is taking a dramatic step in easing Covid restrictions, but are school mask mandates the best place to start. We'll have that story up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:40:21]
SCIUTTO: Just in to CNN, Delaware's governor says he will lift his state's universal indoor mask mandate starting Friday and the mask mandate there for schools will end on March 31st. Delaware, of course, home state of Biden.
GOLODRYGA: Also new this morning, New Jersey's governor announcing a similar move to lift the mask mandate in schools there.
CNN's Miguel Marquez joins us now.
Miguel, we've got two Democrat governors here announcing plans to lift mask mandates. Tell us about the plans specifically in New Jersey.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we're probably going to see a lot more of this in the days ahead.
Look, New Jersey's governor, this afternoon, is going to announce this. This will apply to schools essentially. No more state-wide mask mandate for schools. And it will allow, at some lower level, districts or towns or counties to make their own decisions about mask wearing in schools. Certainly, parents will have the right to have their kids wear masks if they are still concerned about the coronavirus. But it's all sort of a move to get back to some level of normalcy after two years of the coronavirus.
The hope is that we are on to some new phase of the coronavirus. An endemic phase or whatever you want to call it. The concern from health officials are is that the coronavirus has thrown us so many curveballs over the last couple of years that it may be too early to start lifting some of these restrictions.
Pennsylvania's governor lifted restrictions back last month. Colorado hasn't had a mask mandate, has allowed schools to make their own decisions. Connecticut and New York may soon follow suit. Because we saw those coronavirus cases with the omicron variant skyrocket and then they've crashed back down very quickly as well.
Look, in New Jersey, it was hit hard from the very beginning. Some 32,000 New Jerseyans have died from the coronavirus since the beginning of this thing. But it signals a new start. You know, with Delaware lifting that universal mask mandate this Friday, and then Pennsylvania is lifting it previously, and New Jersey now looking into March and lifting that mask mandate for schools. You know, we are in a whole new phase, sort of bumping our way forward.
Back to you guys.
SCIUTTO: And it's a bipartisan one, right? This started as largely a red state move. It's becoming increasingly one where blue state governors are making the same choice.
Miguel Marquez, thanks so much.
Speaking of bipartisan, a bipartisan group of governors has also been pushing the White House to provide some broader guidelines on how to transition out of the pandemic.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, we've been hearing about this for the past week or so. So far federal officials tell CNN that they're thinking about what comes next but they still have not released a plan.
CNN Health reporter Jacqueline Howard joins us now with more on this.
Jacqueline, as we continue to hear more about this need and call for some sort of pathway to post-Covid life and reality, there seems to be some sort of tension here about what's coming from the White House and when they're ready to release the information.
What are you hearing?
JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: That's right, Bianna. What we're hearing, the White House really doesn't want to jump the gun here. We did reach out to the White House. The White House confirms that, yes, officials are thinking about what comes next. They are thinking about life after the pandemic.
But, right now, the focus is really on getting cases, hospitalizations and deaths down even more and also to address community transmission. I believe we have a map here showing that there are high levels of community transmission in counties all across the country. So that's really what the White House is focused on.
But, on the other hand, we have heard from state governors, we have heard from some public health experts who are saying that we are seeing trends going down when it comes to cases and hospitalizations. Because of this, as you see here, the drop in the data, because of this, let's take the time to think about, how will we measure the end of the pandemic. What metric will we use to signal that the pandemic has ended and we are now transitioning into an endemic phase. And when that happens, what mitigation measures should we lift first?
Those are the questions that governors and public health experts have. That's what they're looking for in guidance.
And just yesterday, former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb talked about this on "Face the Nation."
Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FDA COMMISSIONER: I think what governors are sensing is that we need to -- we need to agree upon a set of metrics, when we're going to start to roll back these mitigation steps and give people a light at the end of the tunnel. What is that point when this stuff gets turned off?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD: So it sounds like that's what people are looking for, the light at the end of the tunnel. And right now all eyes are on the White House to see if or when such guidance will be released.
GOLODRYGA: Look, it's something that's happening in other countries as well, but the U.S. appears to be in a unique situation just given how large the country is.
[09:45:06]
Jacqueline Howard, thank you.
Well, new this morning, Spirit and Frontier Airlines just announced that they are merging in a $6.6 billion deal. The combination of the two low-fare carriers will create America's fifth-largest airline. They haven't said yet under which brand they will fly, but the combined company would offer more than 1,000 daily flights to more than 145 destinations.
SCIUTTO: Joe Rogan is facing new criticism, this time for repeatedly using a racial slur in his podcast. Spotify says his show will remain. We'll have an update next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:50:09]
SCIUTTO: Spotify's CEO is now condemning podcast host Joe Rogan's past use, more than once, of the "n" word. In an internal memo to staff yesterday, the CEO said what Rogan did was, quote, incredibly hurtful, but then argued that silencing Rogan is not the answer.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, suggested that it's a slippery slope.
Singer India Arie posted a video compilation of Rogan using the racial slur and she now wants Spotify to remove her music from the platform.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INDIA ARIE, MUSICIAN: I empathize with the people who are leaving for the Covid disinformation reasons. And I think that they should. I also think that Joe Rogan has the right to say what he wants to say. I also think that I have the right to say what I want to say.
So, as an artist who builds -- Spotify is built on the back of the music streaming. So they take this money that's build from streaming and they pay this guy $100 million but they pay us 0.003 percent of a penny, just take me off. I don't want to generate money that pays this (ph). Just take me off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Here with us now is CNN chief media correspondent and anchor of "Reliable Sources," Brian Stelter, on set with me in person.
So good to see you.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You too.
GOLODRYGA: So, what was interesting is just paying attention to what Spotify said and the timing of their response, which came rather quickly, as opposed to them waiting a few days to respond to the controversy following his comments about Covid, right, in that case.
STELTER: That's right. And it shows the level of employee rage and discontent inside Spotify. The CEO felt he had to say something by the end of the weekend. And I think it's obvious why. This tape is excruciating to hear. We've obviously bleeped it, but I think it's important to hear a little bit of what this compilation shows because this is what is the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN: Think, you know (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Yes, saying the word (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Awe, you've already said (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Is just like (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Saying (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
She's calling you a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Boy that he's a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
And starts calling them (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(EXPLETIVE DELETED).
There should be a word like (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Especially like the word (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
That's our (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(EXPLETIVE DELETED).
He say (EXPLETIVE DELETED) guy (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) starts saying (EXPLETIVE DELETED) allowed to us the word (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
And you couldn't see me (EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED). (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STELTER: It's not once or twice, it's not in one or two episodes. This was many, many times. This was something on many episodes of the podcast.
Now, this was before Spotify did an exclusive deal with Rogan. So that's the wiggle room that Spotify has is to say, well, this was in the past and he's taken those episodes down now.
But Spotify has this exclusive relationship with Rogan and then this content comes out. And we know, all across corporate America, something like that comes out, your relationship is severed.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
STELTER: And yet Spotify is trying to find a way to stay with him.
SCIUTTO: Brian, India described the business of Spotify pretty well there, right, in that the service is built in part, not just on stars like Joe Rogan, but a vast music collection. And when you see Neil Young, India, Crosby Stills and Nash -- actually, no, their music's controlled by someone else. But when you see artists begin to do this, does that have a potential business effect?
STELTER: It does. I think that's the other tension here. There's the employee frustration and fury at Spotify and there are the artists who are complaining. And I would say, a lot of this happening behind the scenes. So we've heard from India Arie. We're not hearing from the other artists who are deciding privately to express their concerns to Spotify.
Now, Daniel Echo (ph), last night in his memo, the CEO of Spotify, he said, well, we don't want to silence Rogan. So, we're going to do more. We're going to consult. We're going to hold meetings. We're going to give money to other people. But we don't want to silence him. That's the wrong frame for this. It's not about silencing. This isn't about censoring him. Spotify has an exclusive deal with him. If he wanted to just put up his podcast on Spotify, just like I do, he could go right ahead and do that but Spotify pays him tens of millions of dollars to be promoted exclusively on Spotify. This is really a media relationship between Spotify and Rogan that has gone sideways, and that's at issue here.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Interesting.
GOLODRYGA: And Rogan has apologized, that he can't think of any other situation that he's felt worse about, right, in his life.
STELTER: That's true.
GOLODRYGA: But I am wondering, given that Spotify continues to stand with him, and support him, I can't imagine anything lower than this, videos like this coming out. But is there any concern that there could be more disturbing videos?
STELTER: I think it's very possible. So, you know, he has 1,400 episodes. You would have thought Spotify would have listened to all of them before working with him exclusively in this licensing deal. But maybe they didn't. I think the more likely scenario is we're going to hear from more artists and more employees and maybe more subscribers who just want to cut the -- cut their Spotify bill and not pay for it.
Ultimately, this is also bigger than Spotify. A lot of tech companies are dealing with something similar. The difference between freedom of speech and freedom of reach. You have freedom of speech but the freedom of reach is something different. Spotify promoting Rogan and giving him so much money for it is something different than freedom of speech.
GOLODRYGA: Reach, speech and then, of course, business at the end of the day, right?
STELTER: Yes, at the end of the day. Yes.
GOLODRYGA: He does bring them a lot of money.
STELTER: That's right.
GOLODRYGA: Brian Stelter, as I said, good to see you in person.
[09:55:01]
STELTER: You too. Thanks.
GOLODRYGA: Well, still ahead, new U.S. intelligence indicating that Russian officers may have had doubts about full scale Ukraine invasion. Why they say it could be costlier, and more difficult than Russian President Putin may realize.
We'll have more on that CNN reporting up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: A very good Monday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.
CNN has new reporting this morning indicating that some Russian officers are concerned about a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
[10:00:00]
This as the U.S. has intercepted communications between Russian officials. We'll have much more on what they tell us in just a moment.
