Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Parents of Michigan School Shooting Suspect in Court; Efforts Continue to Avert Russia-Ukraine War; Food Prices Rising; CDC Under Pressure to End Mask Mandate. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 08, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Thanks for joining us today. Hope to see you back here tomorrow.

Don't forget, you can also listen to our podcast. Download INSIDE POLITICS wherever you get your podcasts.

Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now. Have a great day.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. It's great to have you here. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

And the pressure to move on from COVID is on. Some states aren't waiting for the CDC to recommend lifting mask mandates in schools and elsewhere. And we're not just talking about red states. The Democratic governors of New Jersey, Delaware, Connecticut and California, some of the hardest-hit states during Omicron's surge, are now taking steps to roll back mandates.

It's a tense debate we have seen play out across the nation for nearly two years now. Here was the scene at a school board meeting in Illinois just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, the board is going on a 10-minute recess.

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: New polling shows Americans are deeply divided on where we go from here; 21 percent say it's time to get back to life as usual with no restrictions, while 29 percent want to move that direction with some precautions. The other 42 percent want to keep or even increase restrictions.

Let's get right to CNN health reporter Jacqueline Howard, who has been reaching out to the CDC on this.

What's the response, Jacqueline?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Ana, I can tell you, the CDC says, as of now, it stands by its current guidance.

So when it comes to schools, the CDC still recommends universal masking for all students and staff regardless of their vaccination status. Now, I did ask the CDC, are there plans to update this guidance or any plans to offer any clarity on when to lift mask mandates?

I wasn't told yes and I wasn't told no. I was told this -- quote -- "CDC continuously reviews data on the pandemic, as well as the latest science to identify when changes to guidance are recommended."

So, you see, Ana, I was given kind of a vague response there. But while we wait to see if or when there will be updates in guidance when it comes to the White House and the CDC, we are seeing states moving forward with making their own timelines to lift mandates.

You see on the map here Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, Oregon, California. We have seen these states already take that step to plan for the future and plan to lift measures. But, in the meantime, we are still waiting to hear from the White House and from the CDC on their guidance on when it is the right time to lift mitigation measures.

What level of hospitalization rates and cases do we need to get to in order for it to be safe to make this move? That's the question that officials still have for the federal government.

CABRERA: Right.

And we're waiting on those specific answers. But other public health experts have been weighing in. What are we hearing?

HOWARD: That's right.

We really are hearing kind of a split response here. Some public health experts say, let's get our case numbers and hospitalization rates down even more before we start to plan to lift measures. And then, on the other hand, we hear other experts saying, look, we have made improvements in getting case numbers down, in getting hospitalizations down, in getting depths down, so now is the time to start planning to lift mitigation measures.

But, overall, Ana, the most passionate, I should say, response I have heard so far has come from CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen. She says that this is the right time for the federal government to weigh in. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: While we're seeing states and locales take matters into their own hands, that means that the federal government is becoming less and less relevant.

If the CDC guidance that they're putting out is now not being followed by virtually anyone, that makes the CDC and our federal public health authorities have less credibility. And so I really believe that they need to be changing their guidance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD: So, Ana, there is kind of this waiting game for updates and guidance right now from the White House and from the CDC -- Ana.

CABRERA: Jacqueline Howard, thank you for your reporting.

Let's bring in Dr. Jeremy Faust, emergency physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital.

And, Dr. Faust, you just heard Dr. Wen there. She says it's time the CDC began changing the guidance. Do you agree?

DR. JEREMY FAUST, BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL: Thank you for having me, Ana.

Yes, I think it's time for the guidance to be looked at. I don't think it's time for everyone to rip their masks off. Look, we are at a worse place than we were at any previous wave. We have got more kids dying of COVID than have died in several years of flu season.

But I think that the -- it's time to look at these metrics. And we can look at hospitalization rates. That's not something that the public is used to thinking about. But I do liken this to sort of the way we actually have begun to look at pollution.

You look at a place like where I grew up, the Bay Area, they have spare the air days. When things aren't so good in terms of pollution, they make changes until it gets better.

[13:05:00]

And I think the same thing can apply here if we look at hospitalization capacity and say, look, we need to make sure that our critical infrastructure is safe, our kids are protected.

And I think having these very clear gates, these very clear guidance thresholds are really important. The ones from last summer are now out of date. We need to get a much clearer sense of what the goal is. And that gives people something to shoot for.

CABRERA: Absolutely. We all want clarity.

And I want to focus then on what we can see tangibly, because New Jersey is one of the states that is planning to change the mask restrictions. And that's one of three East Coast states lifting those restrictions, specifically in schools. New Jersey is planning to do that in early March. Here's Governor Phil

Murphy's reasoning:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): Our case count, hospitalizations, the positivity rate, the rate of transmission are all dropping like a rock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Dropping like a rock. And we took a look at the stats. He's right. Cases are down. Hospitalizations in that state have also trended way down.

And it's important to note 73 percent of the population in New Jersey is fully vaccinated, and they have another month before changing this policy. So, assuming those trends continue, does it seem reasonable?

FAUST: I think that every state is going to have a different threshold for this.

I think that it matters greatly what the ground conditions are at the time. The last thing you want to do is stick to a plan just because you announced it. But if the hospitals are in good shape, if transmission is low, then, yes, you want to give people a break.

But we can't -- just because we take an off-ramp doesn't mean that there's not a quick on-ramp. I think people have this idea that changing what we do is a sign that we're being wishy-washy or that we're moving the goalposts, when, in reality, if we actually make very clear distinctions about what we're trying to achieve, we can actually tell people and -- what's going on and why.

So, I have never yet seen a situation to where we de-escalated prematurely. If anything, I think this country has been a little too aggressive, and we have paid the consequence in terms of all-cause mortality.

But, at some point, we need to give people something to shoot for, even if it's a brief respite between waves.

CABRERA: So, California is planning to drop the indoor mask mandate next week in that state. And that's specifically for vaccinated people.

What do you think of that plan? Do vaccinated people need masks?

FAUST: Well, we certainly know that vaccination keeps people out of the hospital. It probably still decreases transmission. We know it decreases infection temporarily.

I think that it's certainly a good carrot-and-stick option. I think that's a good idea. Look, when I look at California, I have to say, things are looking OK there in terms of hospital capacity in most places right now. But just two, three weeks ago, we weren't there. And so we have to --

we can be nimble. We can move with the data. But we have to be very clear that we're -- we don't want to dance across the goal line prematurely.

Do I think that we need to tie this to vaccination rates? I think that could be part of the CDC's guidance, because it's not just about transmission, although it is. It's also about protecting critical infrastructure, which is our hospitals.

CABRERA: Right.

But you still have this huge chunk of population that is adamant they won't be vaccinated. And, right now, when you look at the total vaccinated population here in the U.S., only about 27 percent is vaccinated and boosted.

So there's a long way to go to make sure the vaccination numbers are up. And I don't know how you deal with that.

Dr. Jeremy Faust, I really appreciate your time and your expertise. Thank you.

FAUST: Thank you.

CABRERA: In Canada, growing protests over COVID mandates are now blocking one of the busiest border crossings in North America.

We're talking about hundreds of trucks now blocking the Ambassador Bridge, which connects Detroit to Windsor, Canada. Normally, 40,000 people, and some $300 million worth of goods cross this bridge every day, all of this as part of this move to fight Canada's vaccine mandate for truckers.

And Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been calling for the two weeks of protests, which have only grown across this country, to end.

From masking up to paying up. Your next trip to the supermarket is about to get even pricier. I'm sorry. Don't shoot the messenger here. A new report predicts food prices will be rising 5 to 6 percent.

And CNN business reporter Matt Egan is here.

Give us some examples, Matt. What can we expect?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Ana, supermarket sticker shock is real. And, unfortunately, it might get worse before it gets better.

Now, we know that food at home has already gone up in cost 6.5 percent in December from the year before. That's the most since 2008, fresh fruit up by nearly 8 percent, eggs more than 11 percent, and meat prices nearly 15 percent.

And if you look at the past two years, basically, the span of COVID, we have seen the biggest increases since the 2008 financial crisis.

[13:10:00]

And, unfortunately, Goldman Sachs is expecting another 5 percent to 6 percent gain this year alone. And we also know that Kraft Heinz, for example, has recently indicated that they're going to raise prices on dozens of products, everything from Oscar Mayer cold cuts and Velveeta cheese to Capri Sun drinks.

So, why is this happening? Well, there's been this perfect storm of factors, everything from the worker shortage and extreme weather to really high cost of farming. Input costs for farmers has really gone up. Most notably, fertilizer prices have quintupled.

Now, we know there's a lot of positives about the U.S. economy right now. The jobs market is doing really well, despite Omicron. GDP rose last year at the fastest pace since 1984. And the stock market is near record highs.

But, Ana, the high cost of living is obviously a sore spot. And these lead latest projections will not help the matter.

CABRERA: And, Matt, we have been watching the gas prices very closely. They hit another fresh seven-year high just today. But oil prices are down. So what does that mean for us?

EGAN: Well, Ana, yes, so the national average for gasoline is at $3.46 a gallon, fresh seven-year high.

It's up 8 cents in a week, 8 cents, and about $1 from a year ago. Now, the good news is that oil prices are retreating, albeit from very high levels. As you can see on that chart, the oil market has rebounded in incredible ways from early 2020, when it went negative.

What we have seen is that, on Friday, U.S. oil topped $93 a barrel for the first time since 2014. Now oil prices have gone back below $90 a barrel. There's a few factors there. There's some hope of maybe easing tensions between Russia and Ukraine, also some expectations of maybe progress on the Iran nuclear talks.

But, Ana, it is very telling and it says a lot about where we are in inflation right now that $89-a-barrel oil looks kind of good.

CABRERA: Yes. I don't like the sound of that at all.

Matt Egan, thanks, as always.

Will there be peace or an all-out war? As Ukraine's allies race to avoid the latter, Putin sends mixed signals.

Plus, the NFL sued over how it handles race and hiring practices. NFL chief Roger Goodell holds a meeting with civil rights leaders. Why they say a rule that was supposed to solve the problem needs to change. Maybe it needs to go away altogether.

And a dramatic day in court for the parents accused of giving their teenage son the gun he allegedly used to kill his classmates -- details ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:00]

CABRERA: A flurry of diplomacy today, as the U.S. and its allies try to avert a war between Russia and Ukraine.

French President Emmanuel Macron, playing the role of peacemaker, was in Kyiv meeting with Ukraine's President Zelensky a day after his face-to-face with Vladimir Putin in Moscow. And Zelensky told the world afterward, "We stand for de-occupation."

In a possible encouraging sign, the Kremlin said today that Russian troops will be withdrawn from nearby Belarus after joint military exercises. But Russia did not give a specific timeline.

And President Biden had a message of his own: Americans should leave Ukraine.

CNN's Melissa Bell is in Kyiv.

Is there any more optimism about a diplomatic solution following today's meetings, Melissa?

MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think, Ana, after all the noise and darkness of the last couple of months, the very beginning of a hint that perhaps there might be some room for discussion.

That's pretty much all we can say. And, essentially, what Emmanuel Macron has done is take away some of that discord by going to Moscow and saying to Vladimir Putin, look, since the end of the Cold War, there have been incomprehensions, there have been misunderstandings, there have been traumatisms on either side between Russia and the West. We need to sit down at a table and talk again about what security guarantees we can give each other in order to ensure European peace.

And that is an important step that goes some way to what Vladimir Putin has been asking for. And so there is the hope that they may begin to talk, with Vladimir Putin himself saying that Emmanuel Macron's proposals could provide the basis for some concrete steps that they might take together.

They're going to keep talking, but it's a start, Ana.

CABRERA: At least they're talking.

On the other hand, you have Russia today saying it was moving assault ships to the waters off Ukraine. What do you think that signals strategically?

BELL: That's right.

I think it's important to remember that, even as we have this beginning of a hint of talk of de-escalation, the escalation continues with that news that at least three amphibious assault ships heading to the Black Sea for naval exercises.

And when you look at a map all around Ukraine -- and you can understand the nervousness of Ukrainian officials these last few weeks when you do it, Ana -- it is pretty well surrounded. You now have those ships in the Black Sea. You have troops in Crimea to the east, troops to the north in Western Russia, and, of course, troops extremely uncomfortably close to where I'm standing now, just a couple of hours' drive across the border with Belarus.

And it is in that context that Ukrainian officials have been saying over the course of the last couple of weeks, let's just dial down the rhetoric, let's dial down the tension, and what we need to do is talk. And I think that's why they were so keen to welcome Emmanuel Macron and that message of hope he brought today, Ana.

CABRERA: Melissa Bell in Ukraine, thank you for that update.

And with us now is Susan Glasser. She's a CNN global affairs analyst and a staff writer for "The New Yorker." She also spent several years in Moscow covering the Kremlin for "The Washington Post."

Susan, read the tea leaves for us. The French assessment seems to be that Russia is more inclined toward de-escalation at this point, and they can point to Russia saying troops are going to leave Belarus following the joint exercises there.

[13:20:04]

But then we also are learning Russia's now moving assault ships to waters off Ukraine. So, which of these mixed signals should we have more faith in?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, look, I would say that President Macron was notably less upbeat about the prospects for his diplomacy in his meetings today in Ukraine than he was yesterday at the joint appearance with President Putin.

And, in fact, I took and I noted with some concern the statements by Putin's press secretary, who has been with him the entire two decades in power back to when I was in Moscow, basically humiliating Macron. You had Dmitry Peskov jumping on him saying, essentially, Macron is not in charge of NATO. We know that. There's another country, i.e., the United States, that really makes the decisions.

"The New York Times"' headline right now on its Web site kind of captures that, makes the point that Russia dumps on -- overshadows -- undercuts Macron as he's meeting in Ukraine.

And so I would be very cautious to overinterpret what's just gone on in this meeting between the French president and Vladimir Putin.

CABRERA: Melissa just showed us how, essentially, Ukraine is surrounded by Russian forces right now. What does a successful de- escalation even look like at this point?

What are realistic expectations for that? GLASSER: Well, honestly, I don't think it's realistic that we should

be talking about de-escalation or glimmers of de-escalation.

I mean, like, it's like you will know it when you see it, and we're not seeing it right now, in fact, quite the opposite. That military analysis and intelligence analysis that's been underpinning certainly the U.S.' much more strident warnings suggest that within the next less than two weeks, the full-fledged Russian invasion force will be present.

They have continued to increase their presence of combat troops right near the border with Ukraine in the last two weeks. They're somewhere in the 100,000-130,000 range, and they have been moving closer to the border in field camps. They have been moving up the kinds of resources that you would need to actually make a military attack.

And so I think to talk about de-escalation is not really where we're at right now. It doesn't mean that it's impossible to foresee, but it's not happening right now.

CABRERA: President Biden has said several times that, if Russia invades, then the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia to Germany won't go ahead. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be -- we -- there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The German chancellor, during his visit to the White House yesterday, was not as clear in his commitment. He wouldn't even mention the pipeline by name.

But this pipeline plays an important role in terms of the strategy for different sides here. What do you see as the U.S. role in helping Germany navigate this, so that this pipeline can't be leveraged for Putin?

GLASSER: Yes, I think there's -- right now, you have almost a disagreement more about tactics than on strategy when it comes to Nord Stream 2, the question of whether it's better to sort of say on the front end to Putin, this is absolutely -- this project is going to die, or to use it as the U.S. national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, said the other day, or to use that as an example of...

(DOORBELL RINGING)

(DOG BARKING)

GLASSER: Sorry. That's my dog colleague here.

Or to use that as an example of leverage after any military incursion. And so I think it seems very clear that any further military action on the part of Putin is going to lead to the cutting off of this pipeline, but that -- he's baked that into the cost, unfortunately, it seems to me, of this military buildup.

And so I'm not sure that it's going to provide a deterrent, so much as a punishment at this point.

CABRERA: That was impressive how you were able to stay focused through that barking and the doorbell ringing. It reminds me of my dog and how it would go crazy, back when we had a dog.

Thank you so much, Susan Glasser, for your expertise, for your time with us today.

Give your pooch a little belly rub for me as well. All right.

GLASSER: Will do. Thank you very much.

CABRERA: Their son is accused of killing four students at his school, but will James and Jennifer Crumbley face trial themselves?

Hear the slew of new details about that day next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:29:30]

CABRERA: Dramatic and disturbing testimony today, as James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of a Michigan school shooting suspect, appeared in court.

Each parent is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of four students killed during last November's rampage at Oxford High School.

CNN's Jean Casarez is following this trial.

Jean, who took the stand today, and what did we learn?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's so interesting.

There have been quite a few witnesses so far today. This is the preliminary hearing, so there is no jury. And the whole point of this, is there probable cause to bind this case over for trial?