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Russian Invasion Threat Intensifying; Trucker Protests Continue in Canada; More States Roll Back Mask Mandates. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 09, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:02]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Congresswoman Beatty telling CNN this morning she wanted a public apology, and she will now move on.

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Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thanks for being with us.

Almost there? More states are, but the CDC isn't. On the same day Dr. Fauci says we're heading out of this full-blown phase of the pandemic, three more states are rolling back mask mandates, New York, Massachusetts, and we're expecting announcement from Illinois as well. They join a list that just keeps growing.

But, even today, the CDC is sticking by its recommendations that say masks should be worn by everyone over the age of 2 in areas of the U.S. with high or substantial COVID spread. As you can see, that is nearly everywhere, according to the CDC's definition.

Let's bring in CNN's Brynn Gingras and CNN's chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins.

Now, Brynn, you're in New York, where certain mask and vaccine mandates are dropping as soon as tomorrow. Tell us more about what the governor is saying about this decision.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

So, Ana, the -- it was going to sort of go away tomorrow unless she decided to extend it, and, essentially, Governor Kathy Hochul saying, we're not going to extend it. We're going to drop this indoor mask mandate, which essentially, up until this point, businesses, restaurants, grocery stores, they either had to ask for proof of vaccination or require people to wear a mask when they were indoors.

So that is going away, which a lot of people, of course, as you can imagine, are very happy about. There is a little bit of a caveat here. If there's a local municipality, like New York City, for example, that wants to put those mandates in place, they can.

So it's not going away everywhere, but certainly is a huge step forward for the state. I want you to hear what the governor said and what was behind her decision-making.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): Given the declining cases, given declining hospitalizations, that is why we feel comfortable to lift this, in effect, tomorrow.

Now those numbers are coming down. And it is time to adapt. However, we want to make sure that every business knows this is your prerogative. And individuals who want to continue wearing masks, continue wearing masks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: And so we're seeing the roll back of all these different mandates across many states, blue states in particular.

When it comes to school and mandates on masks there, Governor Hochul here in New York saying, hey, not quite there yet. She actually wants to wait until the kids go through their February vacation, come back in March and do some more testing, look at the metrics. And then she reserves the right to make that decision.

Other states, though, already moving forward with that. We know about New Jersey, Delaware today, Massachusetts. But, again, it's happening very quickly, Ana. And we have started seeing not only just in the last few days, but, again, as you mentioned already, we're going to see more states coming on board with this as well within the next -- today to the following days -- Ana.

CABRERA: And so that leads me to Kaitlan, because you just spoke with the CDC director, which has been under pressure, the CDC, to change its guidance to better align with what we're seeing governors do.

And, while Dr. Walensky cases and hospitalizations are dropping, she says they're still too high for this to be the right time to loosen restrictions. You pressed her moments ago about what these states are doing. What's her response?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

They're still very cautious on this idea of lifting these mask mandates, of taking these restrictions away. They say this is a local decision. This is being done at a local level. But you're now seeing state after state, including several of them that are blue states run by Democratic governors, whose politics are obviously pretty closely aligned with this administration's, saying that they believe it's time to change this.

And they're searching for new guidance. You have seen, when governors have been here at the White House in recent weeks, they have directly asked the White House for guidance on how to move into this phase of the pandemic and what they should do.

But when it comes to that guidance, the CDC says they're working on it, but they are not ready to make that public yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And when it comes to masking, should people be listening to the CDC or listening to their governors?

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: Kaitlan, we have always said that these decisions are going to have to be made at the local level, and that policies at the local level will look at local cases, they will look at how local hospitals are doing, they will look at local vaccination rates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, the White House did not outright disagree with these decisions that you're seeing governors make. They have said it's a local decision.

But you also heard from Director Walensky, Dr. Walensky, saying that she believes you should still be wearing a mask indoors if you're in an area of high transmission. And if you look at a map of the country, that is still a lot of the United States, Ana.

CABRERA: Yes, it's more than 99 percent of the United States.

Kaitlan Collins, Brynn Gingras, I appreciate both of you. Thanks.

Let's bring in Dr. Paul Offit, an expert in infectious diseases. He's the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia.

[13:05:02]

Dr. Offit, we will get to what the states specifically are doing in a moment, but first just your reaction to what CDC Director Rochelle Walensky told Kaitlan Collins.

If I was hearing it correctly, and beyond what we heard in that short clip, it's like Dr. Walensky is saying, on one hand, we don't agree with the local officials, we're not changing our guidance, but don't listen to us, listen to them.

DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Well, so I think we're moving from pandemic to endemic. We have about 90 percent of the population that, either because they have been naturally affected or immunized or both, are immune at least against -- or protected against moderate to severe illness. And we're moving into the warmer weather with what is basically a winter virus. So that's all good.

And I think endgame is always a little bumpy. And I think what it's going to boil down to in the end is, what level of disease or what level of hospitalization or what level of death we're willing to live with.

Influenza, for example, is endemic, which is to say, two years before this pandemic started, there were about 700,000 hospitalizations from influenza during the winter season, and about 60,000 people who died.

And we accept that. We -- if we masked, and we social distanced, and we restricted travel, we would probably dramatically lessen those numbers, but we live with them. So, the question is, when do we get to that point with this virus? And I'm not sure what it is, but we are getting there. The difference between pandemic and endemic really is whether or not it affects your life.

We accept influenza, and so it doesn't affect our life. And we will get to that point here. But we should know that I think you're always going to need to have a highly protected community, preferentially by vaccination, because this virus is going to be around for, I think, years, if not longer.

CABRERA: All of what you said makes sense. But the problem, I think, is that the guidance we're getting from health officials isn't consistent now, because, if you look at the current CDC guidance, people in 99.5 percent of counties here in the U.S. should still be masking indoors.

So now, as more and more states simply ignore the CDC protocols, and they decide to do their own thing, what is the role of the CDC now? Do they take the lead or do they follow?

OFFIT: Well, I think Dr. Walensky said it.

I mean, she said, look, here's sort of the goal. We would like for people to be inside, at least for the next few weeks, before we sort of move out of the winter and into early spring, to try and wear a mask and indoors, knowing that, unfortunately, we still have only about two-thirds of this population that's vaccinated.

And so let's try and do that. But she does -- at least willing to accede to the fact that communities that have fairly low spread -- and there are communities that have lower spread because they have higher vaccination rates -- can reasonably make that decision for themselves. So I think that makes some sense.

But I can see where, as you move into the endgame here, it's bumpy. And this is how that bumpy looks.

CABRERA: Well, speaking of listening to local officials, the man expected to become the top health official in Florida, Dr. Joseph Ladapo, he just yesterday refused to say if he's vaccinated.

He's defending comments in support of unproven COVID-19 treatments. If Americans are supposed to look to their local health officials, what if this is the guy in charge?

OFFIT: It's disappointing.

I mean, this has become a cultural issue. I mean, if you identify on the right, then part of that means that you say that vaccines play a less important role here, which is, of course, absurd. The -- if you look at countries that have high vaccination rates, meaning high 80 percent, low 90 percent vaccination rates, they're largely looking in the rearview mirror at this pandemic.

Vaccines are our ticket out of this pandemic. It couldn't be clearer. You're far more likely to be hospitalized and die if you're unvaccinated than vaccinated. So, that a state public health official would make that kind of comment just flies in the face of everything you know about the science here. And, obviously, it's very disappointing.

CABRERA: Dr. Paul Offit, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for taking the time with us.

OFFIT: Thank you.

CABRERA: We turn now to the growing trucker protests over COVID-19 mandates.

They have now shut down the busiest international crossing in North America. This is the Ambassador Bridge connecting Detroit and Windsor, Ontario, in Canada.

And CNN's Miguel Marquez is in Detroit. Paula Newton is in Ottawa, where these protests started.

Miguel, there's a big impact here in the U.S. Tell us more.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it could be a big impact.

Right now, the traffic is shut down entirely on the U.S. side going into Canada. There is a trickle of traffic, of commercial traffic and passenger traffic coming out of Canada across the Ambassador Bridge into Detroit. And that's been going for about 24 hours now, a little over at this point.

There are other places that commercial traffic and passenger traffic can get through. That is clogging it up, though. The Port Huron, where they're sending most of the commercial traffic right now about an hour north of Detroit, it takes a long time, several hours for a truck to get through that port, because the bridge is just too small.

[13:10:04]

There's too many trucks. And they have passport -- or the customs that they have to get through as well.

Police on the Windsor side said they're only dealing with about 100 protesters with 50 or 75 personal vehicles that are blocking the access to the bridge. They're trying to keep other roads open to bridge access, but it's very, very difficult.

Windsor police saying that they want to resolve the situation through the use of diplomacy and negotiation, seeking a solution that is safe and sustainable for our community.

Clearly, a lot of people on both sides of the border, though, getting antsy and wanting to get this wrapped up. It's been a few days now of this. Tonight will be the third night that they have sort of shut down that bridge. And we are waiting to see if police at some point will use more stringent measures to try to move those protesters off.

They say they're doing everything from making arrests where they can, trying to cordon them off, and respect their rights to protest at the same time. But there is growing frustration certainly on both sides of the border, a very important bridge, obviously; 40,000 vehicles go across this bridge every day, $300 million in goods go across this bridge every day.

CABRERA: Right.

MARQUEZ: It's having to go around to other crossings right now, which is just really complicating things for everybody else.

CABRERA: Gotcha.

That's what I was going to ask you, is if they have a long line of people waiting for them to reopen, or if they're rerouting them. It sounds like they're rerouting right now.

Paula, this has been going on, though, for nearly two weeks, these protests. This has gotten to a new level of impact. But where do things stand?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Not in a good place, I will tell you, Ana.

I mean, where I am right now, this has been going on. We're into week two, right? And truckers here are not just dug in. They aren't getting support from every element of society here, who says that they are sick and tired of the pandemic. It's that pandemic fatigue.

And, Ana, I want to point out this is in a minority, a real minority of Canadians, but they are vocal right now. And they are determined. And it seems able to sow chaos wherever they are just -- you heard Miguel. It just takes a few cars and trucks. I want to show you where I am now.

I'm in front of Parliament Hill. So this would be like being in front of Capitol Hill in Washington. And it is completely blocked off by cars and trucks. It's so absurd, Ana, that if you look over here to my right, that is the prime minister's office. Can you imagine? Completely blocked off now.

The thing I want to tell you here, though, this isn't just about truckers. I want you to listen to people who drove here. Took five hours. They're spending the week here, they say, and they're vaccinated. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA MACCARL, PROTESTER: One hundred percent.

DARRYL HASTY, PROTESTER: Yes, double dosed, got my Q.R. code. But what they're...

MACCARL: I even made and sold masks at the beginning of this. But you know what? When you keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result, that's the definition of insanity. We're insane right now. We keep doing the same things over and over again.

Nothing is changing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: And that's what they want, Ana.

They want to change not just the vaccine mandates and mask mandates, how this started with the truckers. No, they want it all gone.

And I want to point out, we were talking to Miguel about the chaos that they're now sowing at that bridge and the fact that this could really affect the United States, as well as Canada. And we have another border crossing.

That protest between Alberta and Montana going into the I-15, that's been going on as well, almost as long as this protest. I have been in touch with the mayor in that town. I have been in touch with police. There is no easy answer, Ana, especially because they want to make sure that they avoid confrontation, violence.

And just to leave you with this thought, on these trucks behind here, Ana, there have been people living here. They're used to living out of their trucks and they have been here for almost two weeks now. There are children, there are families in those trucks, Ana.

I just saw them making deliveries of diapers and baby wipes. This is the other situation that police in this city say complicates the situation further -- Ana.

CABRERA: As a girl who grew up out West, what I'm seeing in your live shot there, Paula, reminds me of a sight I would find going over a mountain pass at a rest area, seeing these truckers just hanging out, not certainly what I'd expect in the heart of a major city.

Thank you, Paula Newton, Miguel Marquez, for your reporting.

Russian warships on the move, thousands of new troops on the border. And now we're learning how the U.S. plans to evacuate Americans from Ukraine if Russia decides to invade.

Plus, CNN has learned what finally led Mike Pence to deliver his strongest rebuke yet of former President Trump. Details on that just ahead.

And are you ready for some sticker shock? How your Super Bowl party is about to be a lot more expensive.

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[13:19:07]

CABRERA: Russia is flexing its military muscle, as tensions with Ukraine build.

An administration official tells CNN that, in the last 24 hours, Russia has added approximately 2,000 combat forces to the border areas near Ukraine. And this is ahead of its military drills in Belarus and naval exercises on the Black Sea.

Meanwhile, the White House has approved a plan for U.S. troops in Poland to help Americans get out of Ukraine if Russia invades.

CNN's Melissa Bell is in Kyiv.

What can you tell us about rapidly escalating -- a rapidly escalating situation?

MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, you and I were talking last night about these efforts at de-escalation.

That is not what we're seeing in terms of troop buildup on the ground, more than 100,000 troops now near the border with Ukraine, according to American intelligence. Now, that's made up of 100 tactical battalion groups.

[13:20:00]

And I will come back to this in just a moment. But there are also, if you look at that border with Belarus, 30,000 troops on their way, according to American intelligence, as well as attack aircraft and anti-aircraft missiles, and then, of course, as you mentioned in the Black Sea to the south, those six warships that we know have been heading there for military exercises as well.

Now, if you have a look at the map of Ukraine, that is a pretty well- surrounded country.

Now, just a word on those battalion tactical groups. What we're talking about here, the 100 or so that now find themselves, Ana, near the Ukrainian border, we're talking about pretty self-sufficient and highly mobile units that are made up of like 800 to 1,000 troops, but also weaponry, engineers, reconnaissance, anti-tank weaponry, for instance, and that were crucial in the Russian involvement here in Ukraine in 2014. So, extremely worrying that there should be so many of them on the

border. And to give you an idea of how quickly that has escalated, in mid-December, American intelligence reckoned there were about 50 of them near the Ukrainian border. Now it is believed that there are about 100 of them, making up those 100,000 troops near the Ukrainian border, so an extremely worrying picture of escalation, very far from the de-escalation that everyone's been calling for, Ana.

CABRERA: And tell us more about this plan to have U.S. troops help Americans evacuate from Ukraine via Poland.

BELL: Well, this is an announcement from the Pentagon.

They're sending from the 2,000 troops that they're going to have in Poland, not yet operational in this respect yet, but they will be expected simply to help any American refugees who may be fleeing across the border from Ukraine, should Russia decide to invade, to help them get back to the United States.

Now, we're not talking here about an Afghan scenario, since these troops would not be in the country themselves. They have no authority to come in, should Ukraine be invaded, but they will be there on the border. And that really speaks to just how worried American authorities are, how worried the Pentagon is.

And, again, the American assessment is that, if Vladimir Putin were to decide to carry out that invasion that we have been talking about so much that everyone's worried about, it would really mean not only tens of thousands of casualties, but perhaps some five million refugees, according to some of their assessments, some of those American, many of them fleeing across the Polish border, so an extremely worrying scenario.

And I think we have to be careful here, because Ukrainian authorities are saying, look, we have been promised a war. We heard from the foreign minister today saying, we were promised a war in December, we were promised to war in mid-January, we were promised a war at the end of January. For the time being, diplomacy is working.

Still, American authorities clearly preparing for the worst -- Ana.

CABRERA: Yes, and we see that video of our U.S. troops arriving there in Poland.

Melissa Bell, thank you.

I want to bring in retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, a CNN military analyst, who was the commanding general of Europe and the Seventh Army.

General after weeks of diplomacy, Russia is not retreating, in fact, quite the opposite. There are still more than 100,000 troops along the Ukrainian border with Russia. They just sent more even today. Tomorrow, Russia is starting these joint military drills with Belarus and say they're going to be bigger and better than ever. Russia's also sending six Russian assault ships into the Black Sea. So Russia appears to be encircling Ukraine even further. What does it

tell you about the impact of the diplomatic talks?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I wouldn't connect what Russia is doing in terms of exercises in Belarus or ships in the Black Sea with any of the diplomacy piece, Ana.

I think, truthfully, the diplomacy, the informational operations, the economic threats that NATO and the United States have made against Russia has still caused Mr. Putin to consider what he's doing. Now, there's going to be bluffs. That's for sure. There's going to be this buildup.

Mr. Putin doesn't know what he's going to do next. And we certainly don't either, but he's looking for options. But I would suggest the ships going into the Black Sea, there are certainly NATO naval vessels from several countries in that area too. We have been conducting exercises in the Black Sea as well with our NATO partners.

In terms of what's going on in Belarus, that's an interesting dynamic. It is again, Mr. Putin, like he's done so many times before, threatening and bluffing individuals to think he's going to do something with force. I believe that he's still not made a decision what he's going to do, and that the diplomatic efforts by both NATO and the United States on multiple fronts is continuing to put him on the horns of a dilemma.

CABRERA: And at least, you could argue, he is still talking.

But do you have concerns that the U.S. and allies are just getting played, that Putin is really just trying to buy time by showing up to these talks, so that he has time to get his full plan and his military forces into place?

HERTLING: Well, I don't think we're being played. I think there's been a solid stance against Mr. Putin. And it's been very interesting to watch the multiple diplomatic aspects of this operation.

[13:25:06]

Ana, the war colleges teach soldiers that there are four elements of national power, diplomacy, information, economics, and military. And the military is the last case operation that you want to do. So, those other things have been playing with multiple diplomats from not only the United States, but other countries.

And the president, I think, has been very adept in pulling NATO back together after several of the dysfunctional operations it has had over the last several years.

CABRERA: General Mark Hertling, thank you so much. I appreciate your perspective and analysis.

The last straw for former Vice President Pence. CNN has learned why he decided to say former President Donald Trump was wrong for claiming his V.P. had the power to overturn the election. And sources add, Pence is now emboldened.

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