Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Interview With Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA); More States Roll Back Mask Mandates. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 09, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:07]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. It's good to be with you.

Massachusetts and New York are the latest states to announce the end to some statewide mask mandates. They are coming in the next few weeks. New York Governor Kathy Hochul said her state's indoor mask mandate will end tomorrow, but schools must keep masks on until -- the students and teachers there, until officials reevaluate the data in early March.

CAMEROTA: State leaders point to high vaccination rates and lower hospitalization rates as reasons for their decisions. Illinois is also expected to announce its plan to roll back the state's indoor mask mandate in most public places this afternoon.

CNN's Brynn Gingras joins us now on set.

So, Brynn, it's interesting to see that these Democratic governors are actually ahead of the White House guidance on this.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

Yes, a lot of these governors align with the same views as the White House, right, but waiting -- not waiting, rather, for the CDC to make this decision, saying we're going ahead with it, and in quick succession, right?

New York becoming the not the next one to decide to get rid of that mask mandate. As they just said, this was going to expire tomorrow, but now, essentially, the governor saying we're not going to continue it on. This means, in the state of New York, before, businesses, restaurants

would have to ask for either proof of vaccination or you were required to wear a mask. So that is going away. It will still be in place in certain municipalities like New York City. So, if you go into a restaurant, you still might have to show your proof of vaccination or put on a mask.

But, again, this is all due, according to the governor to the higher vaccination rates. We saw this go back into effect in December, when the Omicron variant was surging in New York and the infection rate was extremely high. We have seen that come down. And so we're seeing the reins sort of come off of all these mandates.

I want you to hear more from the governor about why she made this decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): Given the declining cases, given declining hospitalizations, that is why we feel comfortable to lift this, in effect, tomorrow.

Now those numbers are coming down. And it is time to adapt. However, we want to make sure that every business knows this is your prerogative. And individuals who want to continue wearing masks, continue wearing masks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: And the governor essentially saying that she reserves the right. If things change, we might have to go back to it.

But, again, right now, this is the way they want to go to kind of phase into this new normal. And it's not just New York. We're seeing this with other states. When it comes to the schools, as you guys said, she's kind of not saying, not there yet. She wants to see how the February break goes for all the students in New York and then reassess it back in March.

But New Jersey, Massachusetts earlier today announced no more masks in schools, Connecticut. So, we're starting to see a lot of these states make these decisions.

BLACKWELL: A lot of people have been waiting for this.

GINGRAS: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Brynn Gingras, thank you.

GINGRAS: All right.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, the CDC is standing by its recommendation to keep masks on in public indoor settings in high-transmission areas, which Director Rochelle Walensky says it's still much of the country.

CNN health reporter Jacqueline Howard is here. So, Jacqueline, what more did Dr. Walensky say?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Alisyn and Victor, well, Dr. Walensky really did stand by the current guidance.

She said that masks still should be worn in areas with higher substantial transmission, which is 99.5 percent of counties right now. But she did say that the agency is reviewing the current guidance. They're looking at the trends. They're looking at the science. And if data suggests making a change, they will consider doing so.

But, of course, as you just mentioned, many states across the country are setting future dates for when they think their communities will be ready to lift mask mandates, New Jersey, Oregon, Connecticut, Delaware. You see the list here right in front of you.

And it was interesting that, today, Dr. Walensky did say that these decisions should be made at the local level. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: We have always said that these decisions are going to have to be made at the local level, and that policies at the local level will look at local cases, they will look at how local hospitals are doing, they will look at local vaccination rates.

And they, as I understand it, in many of these decisions are using a phased approach. Not all of these decisions are being made to stop things tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD: So it was interesting to hear Dr. Walensky acknowledge that today.

But, again, she says that, on the federal level, the CDC is standing by its current guidance and current recommendations. But they are reviewing the data. They are reviewing the science. And so all eyes are on the agency right now to see if or when they might update that current recommendation -- Alisyn, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Jacqueline Howard, thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's discuss this with two medical experts who see the issue in different ways.

We have associate professor at Harvard University's School of Public Health Joseph Allen and primary care physician Dr. Saju Mathew.

Great to see both of you.

OK, Joseph, you say now is the time to start lifting school mask mandates. Why?

[14:05:00] JOSEPH ALLEN, HARVARD T.H. CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Well, I think it's entirely appropriate. And thanks for having me on.

At this point, I think we can look at a couple different metrics that tell us that it is OK. First, let's talk about what's happening particularly places like the Northeast. We actually have metrics we can use. The wastewater data shows us that we are back to pre-Omicron levels.

A good metric of community spread, our hospitals are no longer at capacity. We also know that about 50 percent of the hospitalizations are with COVID, not due to COVID. So 50 percent are incidental COVID.

But maybe most importantly is the risk-based metrics. An unvaccinated teenager risk of hospitalization is on the order of one in 100,000. That's low risk. A vaccinated teenager, the risk of a hospitalization is one per million. These are low, and we should be taking advantage of these -- the reprieve that we're getting at the tail end of the Omicron surge to pull back some of these controls, and don't keep them any longer than is necessary.

CAMEROTA: OK, Dr. Mathew, you have heard him lay out his case. But you're not quite there yet.

DR. SAJU MATHEW, PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: Yes, I'm not I'm not there yet. And I will tell you why.

I don't think the time is now. I mean, I do agree with Joseph when he says, if you look at certain metrics in certain parts of the U.S. where Omicron hit the hardest, like the Northeast, New York, Connecticut, I think that makes sense.

But my question is, why do we have metrics? Why is the White House task force, CDC, Secretary Becerra's office, Health and Human Services, why don't have all of them join forces and come up with specific metrics, your cases need to be at this level, your hospitalizations, your ICU admissions, and let that be, if you will, like the general skeletal work that we look for to decide about other states?

But states where the cases are coming down, the hospitalizations are coming down, I still want to know how the governor made that decision. Did she have doctors who are working in the trenches like myself help her with that decision?

And I think that if you make it clear what the metrics are, then you can reverse the guidelines if the cases and the pandemic begins to get worse in the future.

CAMEROTA: Look, I totally agree. If we had metrics, you could even use them as an inducement. When your community hit 70 percent vaccination rate, you can lose the masks and fill in the blank. I mean, but they're not doing that.

And so, Joseph, you made, I think, a compelling case about teenagers and in terms of the risk to them, but, of course, younger kids under 5 cannot be vaccinated. And so let me just pull up for you. Right now. Only 23 percent of kids aged 5 to 11 are vaccinated.

And, as I said, younger ones are not even eligible for that. So, why not keep the protections in place for now for them?

ALLEN: Well, it's important that my three kids are vaccinated. I'm hopeful we will get a vaccine for those youngest.

But, fortunately, even that youngest group has been -- has fared very well. The hospitalization rate, again, in the Northeast for kids that age is under one per 100,000. That, again, is low risk.

I think if we set ourselves up and say we need 70 percent of under-5s vaccinated before we release masks, we may never reach that. We haven't even reached that for the 5-to-11-year-olds yet. We have to take this risk-based approach.

I also want to address the metrics conversation. I agree, CDC needs to set metrics. They actually do have two metrics -- and your reporter mentioned it earlier -- that says 99 percent of country is in high or substantial set.

These metrics CDC are using have been deeply flawed for over a year now. They have set them before vaccines, before boosters, before rapid tests. Its cases and percent positive. These are biased metrics. We have to adjust and come into the 2022 playbook, used things like the wastewater data, which is an unbiased metric of a community spread.

And CDC has really boxed themselves in by keeping these metrics that are very out of date. I can't find a good infectious disease epidemiologist who thinks these are good metrics. So you're exactly right. We have to update these, but CDC has been behind the ball. And that's why governors are acting ahead of the CDC.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and, by the way, I mean, I was just throwing that out as a hypothetical in terms of a vaccination rate, not necessarily for kids.

My point was, why not use it as an incentive? When you hit this certain metric, then everybody gets freedoms? But you don't hear them saying that, Dr. Mathew.

And so there's also been conflicting data about masks in school, and just how much -- basically, whether or not the benefits are worth the costs. What are your thoughts on that, Dr. Mathew.

MATHEW: Yes.

So, Alisyn, I definitely think that people look at studies, and you can always find flaws in studies. But CDC has some really good studies that show that masks will absolutely help the wearer of the mask, even if people around them are unmasked.

And then, just to respond to Joseph's last comment, the metrics absolutely are going in the right direction, like I said, in the Northeastern states. But let's also not forget that children don't live in isolation. They hang out with teachers, with staff, school officials that might be at high risk of catching COVID.

I can't tell you the number of cases I have seen, Alisyn, at work where the kids bring in the virus, the parents get sick, and in this one particular in case, the mother-in-law was admitted, and she died.

[14:10:03]

So, kids don't live in a bubble. While I agree that the risk to kids is much lower, we're not teaching kids in isolation. You have got teachers and adults around them.

CAMEROTA: What about that, Joseph? They're conduits, more than they themselves are at risk,

ALLEN: Well, let's also recognize that adults have had access to a vaccine, a free and safe vaccine, for over a year.

And I think every teacher and adult in a school needs to be vaccinated and take that responsibility, because we know the best way to protect kids is to make sure those around them are vaccinated. Dr. Fauci has been saying this for six months.

A new study out of the CDC shows that even within-home transmission is lower to kids and to adults when even the adults are vaccinated, and the kids are not yet. So we have to start putting some personal responsibility here, make sure we have all of the adults vaccinated.

But I don't think we can just keep controls in forever on kids only, while adults go ahead and do whatever the heck they want to do, as we pull back the controls for adults, leave kids in masks to protect adults who've had a year to get that vaccine.

We may -- then that's an argument for forever masking for kids, if you think about it, because there's no off-ramp here. I do think a key point was just made though, and I have been making this too, that the power of one-way masking is really important.

Even if controls come off and they say no masks in schools, and someone is still concerned, get vaccinated, get boosted if you're an adult, and wear a good mask, and that will keep you protected. It's about as low-risk as anything in life, regardless of what others are doing or not doing around you.

CAMEROTA: We really appreciate getting both of your perspectives. Really valuable to hear.

So, Joseph Allen, Dr. Saju Mathew, great to talk to both of you.

ALLEN: Thank you.

MATHEW: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Well, another day, another report of Rudy Giuliani's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results.

"The Washington Post" says that he asked a Michigan prosecutor to seize his county's voting machines, and then turn them over to team Trump. We will talk to one of the reporters who broke that story next.

CAMEROTA: And if you think it was bad calling the violence against police officers on January 6 -- quote -- "legitimate political discourse," wait until you hear what the RNC originally wanted to call it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:35]

BLACKWELL: "The Washington Post" is reporting that Rudy Giuliani and other Trump legal advisers asked a prosecutor in Northern Michigan to gather up his county's voting machines and send them to Trump's team.

CAMEROTA: Jon Swaine is one of "The Washington Post" reporters who broke this story.

Jon, thanks so much for taking time to be with us.

Can you explain what the former president's team and Rudy Giuliani was exactly after here?

JON SWAINE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": So, this was Antrim County, Michigan, which had a serious error on election night.

The unofficial results there initially said that Joe Biden had won. IN fact, Donald Trump had won. And it was corrected quickly and they moved on. But the president's team sort of seized on Antrim County to try to prove that the election had been stolen, essentially.

And as part of that effort, Rudy Giuliani and members of his team called the local district attorney and asked him, is there a way you can get the voting machines from the county and pass them to us? We want to look at them. And he declined.

BLACKWELL: And Antrim really was central to, even through January 6, Jon, part of the narrative that Trump team and all of those supporters used to try to justify what they wanted former Vice President Mike Pence to do.

SWAINE: That's right.

They helped create what they call a forensic report, which inaccurately alleged sweeping fraud based on the example of Antrim. And then that was cited as they pressured state lawmakers to reject Joe Biden's win. It was presented as justification in a draft executive order for President Trump to order the troops and to seize voting machines in other states.

And President Trump, on January 6, on the stage referenced Antrim shortly before his supporter stormed the Capitol.

CAMEROTA: Right.

I mean, they took one obscure example that was quickly corrected, and tried to make it seem like a widespread across-the-country problem. The Antrim County prosecutor, who was asked to hand over the voting machines, said -- quote -- "I said I can't just say give them here. We don't have that magical power to just demand things as prosecutors. You need probable cause."

How many voting machines are we talking about? And what were they going to do with them if they'd had gotten them?

SWAINE: They thought that, by examining the machines and the software and the sort of tape within those machines that shows how the votes were cast and how they were counted, they would somehow prove that there was a rigged system, that the software in these machines had somehow been tampered with, and that votes that meant to go to Donald Trump somehow went to Joe Biden.

They actually sent in a team of analysts eventually. Even though the prosecutor declined to give them the machines, they got access another way. They sent a team in and they did look at the machines. And they sort of drew up this technical-seeming report based on what they found, claiming that the machines were rigged.

BLACKWELL: Jon, you mentioned the executive orders that we learned about to seize voting machines, either by the military or the Department of Homeland Security.

Was the refusal from the prosecutor in Antrim the direct link to now saying, if they won't give them to us voluntarily, then we're going to send troops out to get them?

[14:20:08]

SWAINE: We don't see a direct link with the prosecutors declining to give them the machines.

But it does seem that their efforts like that were unsuccessful in the kind of couple of weeks after the election. And so, as time went on, and the inauguration neared, it does seem that people around President Trump were making ever more drastic proposals for how the machines should be taken.

And, as you say, this draft executive order suggested that National Guard troops could go into states, go into local counties, take the machines, and do a complete hand recount of every vote in these battleground states to somehow prove that the president has actually beaten Joe Biden in them.

CAMEROTA: Jon Swaine, really helpful reporting. Thank you very much for sharing that with us.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Jon.

All right, this just in. The White House has reiterated that it will continue to promote President Biden's stalled, Build Back Better agenda. The administration is open to rebranding the bill to expand the social safety net because the legislation currently has no path forward in Congress.

Joining us now is Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. She's a Democrat who serves on the House Budget and Judiciary Committees.

Congresswoman, welcome back.

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Thank you so much, Victor. It's great to see you. Great to be back.

BLACKWELL: So, let's start here with Build Back Better and then get into other topics.

We heard from Senator Joe Manchin just yesterday, who said that it's dead. He doesn't know what people are talking about Build Back Better. And now we hear from the White House that they're open to rebranding, which seems like the least significant element of this.

Are you going to be part of those conversations? You had handed this over to the White House. As you try to start from scratch, will you be sitting down with Senator Manchin, with some of the moderates to see what can be done?

JAYAPAL: Well, Victor, I don't think we're starting from scratch.

I think we have had months and months of negotiation. We know actually exactly what different parties want, what can get 50 votes in the Senate and what can get 218 votes in the House. And I think that I'm perfectly fine with rebranding it. I don't mind what we call it. But what we have to do is lower costs for the American people.

We got to lower child care costs. We got to lower prescription drug costs. We got to lower health care costs. And we have to make sure that we are addressing an unfair tax system. So those are the things that we know we got to do. And I believe that we can put these pieces back together, we can call it something else, but we need to pass it urgently.

And that's why we have called on the president to get to a deal. Originally, we had called to try and get it done by March 1.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

JAYAPAL: But, obviously, because of the unfortunate circumstances of our colleague Ben Ray Lujan, and we wish him the very best.

We do think we can get to a deal. And the president can then use his bully pulpit on March 1 to tell the American people what we are going to do to lower their costs and to invest in all our families.

BLACKWELL: Now, Congresswoman, I chose those words, those three words, start from scratch, because that's how Senator Manchin describes this will have to go forward.

I put a little weight on his characterization because he's one of the two votes necessary to get this through the Senate that you currently don't have. So, when I say start from scratch, it's because the people you don't have say you have to start from scratch.

When will that start? Because Senator Manchin also says that, in the six weeks since he said it was a no-vote, there have been no formal conversations, despite the events that the president's holding to promote Build Back Better.

JAYAPAL: Well, let's see.

I think not every conversation is discussed publicly or needs to be discussed publicly. I think these conversations are going on. And I don't think we're starting from scratch. And I think that we will put together a package, ultimately, that helps the American people, lowers costs, and does what we said we would do when we all ran for office.

That's the most important thing. Let's help our families. Let's address inflation. Let's lower costs. And let's do what we promised.

BLACKWELL: Last one on Build Back Better here.

Even some of those senators, Democratic senators, who support the bill, it seems that they are losing enthusiasm to move forward on it. Some of the president's allies in the Senate say that it's an almost palpable desire to move away from partisan bills. This is from Democratic senator Tom Carper.

He told "The Hill": "We tried on Build Back Better to go our separate ways, do it through reconciliation. Fell short. We tried to go separate ways get something done with respect to voting rights and protecting them. We have fallen short. I can feel it in both caucuses." He said that: "There's a yearning for let's try to work together on some stuff and get some stuff done."

Democrat Chris Coons said: "I think we can and should do bipartisan legislation. There are a number of bills that are ready to move."

It seems like some of the president's closest allies in the Senate are moving on from Build Back Better, even as you say that there's a commitment to get it passed.

[14:25:04]

JAYAPAL: Well, Victor, I think we just have to remember that 85 percent of the president's agenda that he laid out when he came and gave his last -- his first State of the Union speech to us last March is contained in what we called Build Back Better.

And I don't think that we can give up on families across the country who can't afford the cost of child care, women who have been driven out of the workplace because they can't afford child care or pre-K, seniors who can't afford their drugs. I simply don't think that it is sufficient for us to say we're going to give up on them.

And I don't think anybody is giving up. I think that we know what the path is here. Senator Manchin has said over and over again, after six, eight months of negotiation, that there are many of these pieces that he supports. He supports the big investment in climate. We have got to take leadership on climate if we're to make a difference on climate change. Let's do that. Let's do the universal pre-K and the child care. Let's

do the prescription drug pricing. And let's just get as many of the pieces as we can in and get it done. So, I don't -- I just don't think we have the luxury to say we're going to give up and we're just going to work on things that are easy.

People are struggling, and we need to fight for them. And we need to get this done, because we are literally one vote away from doing that.

BLACKWELL: Let me get your thoughts on this exchange between the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, Congresswoman Joyce Beatty. She's accepted the apology from Republican Congressman Hal Rogers after she asked him to wear a mask when he was coming on to the train below the Capitol going to some offices, which is required.

She says that he poked her in the back. And she said: "Do not touch me." And then he replied with: "Kiss my ass."

He has apologized. He first mumbled something on the floor. She said that wasn't good enough. There was a public tweeted apology.

If I had done that to one of my colleagues, there would have been a requirement of more than a tweet of an apology. Do you think that there should be more? Should the apology and acceptance be the end of this?

JAYAPAL: Look, I think that the apology is the least that could be done.

And I think this really points to -- and I really stand right alongside Chairwoman Beatty. That was absolutely assault, in my book, to poke somebody and push them onto the train and say what Representative Hal Rogers said.

This is where the lack of civility has come to in the United States Congress. And I think it is a massive problem. It undermines our ability to get work done. And it is intolerable in a workplace where we are going to work to do the work of the American people.

And, also, let me just remind your viewers that this was about wearing a mask, which is mandated in the Capitol.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

JAYAPAL: It is mandated in the Capitol. And it is to protect our safety, our collective safety, the safety of our staffers.

And so the idea that -- and this has happened to me -- where you get on an elevator and people refuse to wear a mask, and your choices are to either get off the elevator or to get on the elevator and to tell them to wear a mask.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

JAYAPAL: That should not be a problem in the United States Congress. And I really believe that our colleagues who refuse to even adhere to

the basic norms of civility are undermining our democracy. And, of course, we're seeing it in all kinds of even more serious ways. Like, the January 6 insurrection is just part of that and part of the attempt to take down a legitimate democracy from functioning in the way it should function.

BLACKWELL: Well, quickly, Congresswoman, you used the word assault to describe what happened.

If one colleague has now assaulted another -- and I'm running out of time here, but what do you believe the consequence should be if the apology is not enough?

JAYAPAL: Well, I'm letting Congresswoman Beatty determine what she wants to do in this situation. She's accepted his public apology.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

JAYAPAL: And I think we need to stand by her in whatever she wants to do.

BLACKWELL: Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, thanks so much.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Victor.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to this.

President Biden is taking his next steps on a potential Supreme Court nominee.

BLACKWELL: And Canadian truckers' protest over COVID mandates are blocking the busiest international crossings in North America. The closure is forcing backups at a time when supply chains are already disrupted -- what's behind this ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)