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Biden Vows "Swift And Severe Costs" If Russia Invades Ukraine; Canada Police Work To End Protest At U.S. Border Bridge; Final Preps Underway For Super Bowl LXI; Shaun White's Olympic Career Ends After 4th Place Finish; Biden Rejects Findings On Afghanistan Evacuation; Explaining The Mass Appeal Of Joe Rogan; Drunk Driver Leaves Town "Like A Battlefield." Aired 8-9p ET

Aired February 12, 2022 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: A Team USA ski jumper got creative for her Olympic training by using -- get this -- WII Fit.

The video game allows players to bend their knees and speed down a virtual slope. No snow needed. Little did Nintendo know its game would be an Olympic training to show skills on TikTok.

Your next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN (voice-over): Tonight, Biden warning Putin of swift and severe costs amid escalating fears of an imminent attack against Ukraine.

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There's a very distinct possibility Russia will choose to act militarily.

BROWN: The call between the two leaders comes as the U.S. Pulls some of its forces out of Ukraine and orders the evacuation of most of its embassy staff.

Meantime the Russians accusing the Western powers of spreading a large-scale disinformation campaign.

(SHOUTING)

BROWN: Inside Ukraine, the president calling for calm.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: As thousands rally for peace in the capital.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINE PRESIDENT: The best friend the enemies there's plenty in our country.

BROWN: Also tonight, police moving in on protesters to clear the blockade on north America's busiest international crossing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be consequences for these actions, and they will be severe.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN "WORLD SPORT" ANCHOR: We're just a day away now from Super Bowl LVI here in Los Angeles, and it's certainly a game no one predicted.

UNIDENTIFIED NFL FOOTBALL PLAYER: I kind of got tired of the whole underdog thing. We're in the Super Bowl and we're a really good team that deserves to be here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday night.

"Professional and substantive." That is how one CNN administration official describing today's hour-long phone call between President Biden and Russian president Vladimir Putin.

Biden told the Russian leader that the U.S. and its allies are committed to diplomacy, but if the Kremlin attacks Ukraine the West will respond, quote, "decisively and impose swift and severe costs."

Satellite images show a continued buildup of Russian troops this week with thousands more added to the estimated 100,000 already there.

Troops, military vehicles and helicopters have flooded into this air base in Belarus. It is believed to be the biggest Russian deployment there since the Cold War.

And Ukraine is now facing a potential invasion from three sides, as you see right here on this map.

Today the U.S. pulled 160 National Guard troops who had been training in Ukraine/

And the State Department ordered nonemergency U.S. employees at the embassy in Kyiv to evacuate. It cited, quote, "Potential for significant military action."

CNN's correspondents and experts are tracking all the latest developments.

But we want to begin tonight at the White House where we find CNN's Arlette Saenz.

Arlette, what more are we learning about today's call?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, the White House says there was no major breakthrough in that one-hour call between President Biden and Russian president Vladimir Putin.

And a senior administration official says there's still a distinct possibility Russia moves forward with an invasion of Ukraine.

The president held this call from his presidential retreat at Camp David where he is spending the weekend. And the White House said that he warned Putin that if he moves forward with an invasion, there'll be swift and severe consequences.

The White House also said President Biden reiterated that a further Russian invasion of Ukraine would produce widespread human suffering and diminish Russia's standing.

They added President Biden was clear with President Putin while the United States remains engaged with diplomacy in full coordination with our allies and partners, we're equally prepared for another scenario.

Now, officials say they do not believe Putin has made that final decision about whether to invade Ukraine.

But that ultimately what they're seeing on the ground there does not tend to show efforts towards de-escalation, which is what the U.S. is seeking at this moment.

Now, going forward the White House says that President Biden and his team will remain in contact with Russia in the days to come even as they are warning that Russia could launch a military attack at any moment.

And they're acknowledging even as those could continue, Russia may still be hurtling towards an invasion at this time.

BROWN: And what is the latest on getting Americans out of Ukraine?

SAENZ: Well, the U.S. today announced they were evacuating all nonemergency personnel from the embassy in Kyiv. Most of the staff there on the ground in Ukraine.

Additionally, they're issuing these warnings for Americans to immediately depart the country this weekend as the security situation could deteriorate there very quickly.

[20:05:00]

Now, a couple thousand American citizens have told the State Department in recent days they're still in the country.

And a significant portion of that group says that they plan to remain on the ground there despite the warnings of these security threats.

Now, commercial airline options are quickly dwindling as airlines are evaluating the possible risk of flying into Ukraine at this moment.

But this evening, the State Department released a message saying that Americans will now be able to cross into, over land, into Poland without prior approval.

There will be two border crossings that Americans could utilize between Ukraine and Poland in the coming days. They just have to show a passport as well as a proof of COVID-19 vaccination.

The U.S. is trying to make clear to its citizens in the country of Ukraine, that if an invasion occurs there will not be an American military rescue operation to get people out of the country.

So they want to see them out of Ukraine as soon as possible.

BROWN: All right, Arlette Saenz, from the White House for us on this Saturday night, thank you.

Now let's go to southeastern Ukraine. That's where we find CNN's Alex Marquardt.

Alex, what are you seeing there?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT : Well, Pam, if the Ukrainian leadership's goal was to keep this population calm and prevent panic, well they have certainly succeeded.

It is essentially business as usual not just on the streets of the capital Kyiv but here where we are in southeastern Ukraine in the city people are going about their regular lives.

Last night, on a Friday night, people were out in bars and restaurants and cafes. We've not seen panic on the streets or panic buying or even a military buildup as the U.S. warns a Russian invasion could be days away.

It is striking, Pam, to see the difference in tone both from Ukrainian civilians and their leadership when it's compared to what we're hearing from the U.S. and the rest of NATO.

Today we did hear from President Volodymyr Zelensky. He heaped all kind of skepticism on the intelligence from the United States. Saying he still needs to analyze the information. And that he had other information.

He was down taking a look at the Ukrainian military exercises that are happening right now at exactly the same time as the Russian military exercises that you mentioned up in Belarus.

Take a listen to a little bit more what President Zelensky had to say about his fear of causing panic here in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: We have a lot of information because we are on the borders. It's our borders. It's our territory.

You know, I have to speak with our people like -- you know, like president and say to people the truth.

And now the best friend for enemies is panic in our country. And all this information that helps only for panic doesn't help us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And, Pam, we just heard Arlette outlining telling its civilians to get out of Ukraine and moving diplomats out of the capital of Kyiv. The U.S. are not the only ones. There are many other countries doing

similar things, issuing travel advisories, telling their nonessential personnel to get out of the country, pulling back troops.

The U.K. also pulling its military advisers. That is too soon. according to a top aide to President Zelensky.

He said the security situation has not yet reached a level where those travel advisories need to be put out, where embassies need to draw down their personnel.

They are on a very different page than the United States.

The message we're hearing from Ukraine tonight is one of assurance and defiance, saying if this invasion happens. we will stand and fight -- Pam?

BROWN: Alex Marquardt, thanks for bringing us the latest there from Ukraine.

And let's continue this conversation with retired U.S. Air Force Colonel and CNN military analyst, Cedric Leighton.

There was a call and the U.S. says it did not change the dynamic. Do you believe Putin has already decided whether he will invade?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think so, Pamela.

And it's one of those situations where you look at the way in which these calls is handled. The language was that the call was business- like, and that they, you know, discussed the issues in a frank manner.

But there was no change in position of each country.

When that happens generally speaking it means both sides have made up their minds.

And in this case, of course, what that means is President Putin is ready to do whatever he has decided to do at this point.

BROWN: And do you believe that he will invade?

LEIGHTON: I do. You know, based on everything that's out there.

Now, that invasion may look a little bit different than what we think it will look like.

[20:10:01]

For example, we're focused on the tanks and the missiles and the aircraft that arrayed around Ukraine.

It could involve other things as well including cyberattacks, conventional attacks, Special Operations forces being brought into various parts of the country. But one thing where I do agree differently with the administration, the U.S. administration's assessment is that one of the big things that could happen is a lightning strike, a lightening attack on Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital.

And I think that's very much a possibility right now.

BROWN: Wow. So the Pentagon we know has ordered 3,000 more U.S. troops to Poland as part of the administration's efforts to reassure jittery NATO allies and eastern Europe.

How important are these deployments? I mean practically speaking is this just a symbolic move?

LEIGHTON: Well, it certainly is a symbolic move, Pamela.

You know, the big thing here is we're showing -- it's basically a show of force. We're showing the flag.

We're also buttressing the militaries of our NATO partners, in this case Poland, Romania, you know, the two big ones that are getting U.S. deployments to their countries.

And of course, the countries that are neighboring that area, the NATO countries like the Baltic States, even Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Germany, all those countries benefit from these deployments.

So it's in essence a speed bump should Putin by some really strange mechanism decide to go into a NATO country, I don't think he will do that.

But it still would be a speed bump for his forces, and that would then trigger a far greater conflagration, which I don't think any of the parties in this would want.

But nonetheless, it is a signal to Putin that we are not only watching him but that we are prepared to act if he goes too far.

BROWN: You were an intelligence officer. The administration has shared some previously classified intelligence with the public from Russian troop numbers, from Kremlin plots.

Administration officials tell CNN the goal here is to partly diffuse Russian lies that could trigger a war and throw Putin off his game.

Do you agree with that approach?

LEIGHTON: I think it's a great approach.

And the reason I say that it's very different from the position I would have taken as a young intelligence officer a couple decades ago because at that time you were very much schooled in the idea that secrets shall remain secret forever.

But the reality of the situation right now is that we are in an information war. And being in an information war, that means we have to reveal some of

the intelligence that we have in order to counteract the information operations from the Russians.

The Russians are very adept at this. They use lies and other tactics, half-truths to, you know, press their point view.

And the only way to defeat those is to tell the truth and to tell people what we know.

And this idea, this policy that we have of revealing some of our intelligence is I think a very good one, and it goes in that direction.

BROWN: All right, Colonel Cedric Leighton, as always thank you.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Pamela, any time.

BROWN: President Bidne's national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, joins Jake Tapper tomorrow on "State of the Union." Be sure to tune in tomorrow right here on CNN.

A third week in a protest in Canada as truckers and their supporters protest vaccine mandates. By continuing a blockade of vital trade routes into the U.S.

Ontario has declared a state of emergency. And earlier today, Canadian police began moving in to remove some protesters and their supporters.

Now, these protests are gaining momentum in large part to the enormous coverage found right now in U.S.-based right-wing media.

Networks like FOX and OAN have dedicated substantial airtime to covering the block aids, often calling the protesters heroes and patriots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX HOST, "HANNITY": Canada's Freedom Convoy is still going strong tonight, and it's spreading all over the world. How long before protests like this come here?

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX HOST, "THE INGRAHAM ANGLE": Will we need our own trucker rally to end all of this insanity once and for all?

UNIDENTIFIED FOX HOST: Is the trucker convoy coming to America?

UNIDENTIFIED OAN HOST: Look at that, folks. The fight for Freedom Continues up in Canada. Ottawa has been taken over by the peaceful protests.

HANNITY: We support what they're doing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sean sends a message. He says the message, he said, we are standing beside you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: According to the progressive watchdog, "Media Matters," since the movement began January 18th until this Thursday, FOX has devoted more than 10 hours of coverage.

[20:15:00]

With its stars Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity each dedicating more than an hour.

Former FOX News chief political correspondent, Carl Cameron, joins me now.

Hi, Carl. Good to see you.

CARL CAMERON, FORMER FOX NEWS CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Pamela. Thanks for having me on.

BROWN: What about this movement has captured the attention of networks like FOX?

CAMERON: Well, I think what they're essentially trying to do is build their message and put it into Canada, I guess. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

But some of its own public records, FOX's staff is about 90 percent all vaccinated, and the 10 percent aren't vaccinated have to be tested every day.

So it strikes me as a tremendous amount of hypocrisy for these opinion hosts to be cheering on the truckers who are doing some considerable economic damage to Canada as well as to the U.S. And essentially they're already vaccinated for the most part.

So there's a tremendous amount of hypocrisy, and it comes down to one thing. They want to have more eyeballs which gets them more money.

Money and power is what drives a lot of the right-wing cable.

BROWN: Well, on that note it shouldn't surprise us that Tucker Carlson is trying to capitalize on this moment by selling a T-shirt that says "I love truckers" of course playing off his name Tucker.

What do you think about this?

CAMERON: Now we have trying to make money off it. It's really bizarre.

It's hard to imagine how far FOX has gone since the Trump era and during the Obama presidency. Things have just gotten worse and worse and worse.

And now we find them literally picking on a neighbor country, and the police are moving in on the truckers.

And for these opinion hosts to be suggesting that, oh, let's start doing it in the United States, what are they thinking? That's the type of stuff that comes to the possibility of inciting violence.

And at this point it's more than just misdemeanor stuff. They're -- they're pushing false information, misinformation, disinformation and putting people's lives at stake.

Not just here in this country but now we're doing it cross border. It's insanity.

BROWN: You know you had mentioned earlier about just the economic damage this is causing.

And according to a new report, workers in a Michigan auto industry could lose up to $51 million in wages this week alone.

So why do so many consider these protesters as heroes and patriots especially when this blockage has real consequences for American workers, the same people the right-wing media claim to care so much about?

CAMERON: Well, it's a culture. And particularly in the upper peninsula in Michigan and in Michigan there are a tremendous amount of Republicans and Trumpists and big time FOX fans.

And so there's a real dichotomy here. You have folks like Mr. Carlson and the various different opinion hosts particularly in prime time fanning these flames. And it's actually hurting American workers.

It isn't the kind of stuff that a cable cham should be doing.

It's certainly not news. It's entirely information -- misinformation, disinformation and lies.

And it's got to be stopped at some point or another. Otherwise we run the risk of what's next?

Are they going to start suggesting that, well, maybe they're going to side with Putin on incursions in Ukraine?

I mean, it's crazy to think that a cable channel could take positions on things like this, but that's what they're doing in Canada over these truckers.

BROWN: There's concern that the protests could grow here in the U.S. I know DHS released a bulletin about this. It could strain a supply chain already under great pressure.

This week, Republican Senator Rand Paul says he wants to see trucker protell uses clog up the streets both around the Super Bowl and L.A. tomorrow and in Washington, D.C.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): I'm all for it. Civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is a time-honored tradition in our country from

slavery to civil rights to you name it. Peaceful protests, clog things up, make people think about am mandates.

I hope the truckers do come to America. I hope they clog up cities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So what is your reaction hearing him say that?

CAMERON: All of this in the name of anti-masking and anti-vaxxing. It's incredible. Particularly because Senator Rand Paul is a physician.

[20:19:49]

And, you know, doctors have a Hippocratic oath to first do no harm, and he's literally encouraging people to put themselves in harm's way by not getting vaccinated.

Because they got elected would literally take those constituents and put them in front of a firing squad.

It's unnecessary. It's incredibly wrong as a politician in this country.

And it's beginning to really, really degrade peoples responsibility and their ability to understand what the hell is going on in Washington. It doesn't make any sense.

BROWN: Carl Cameron, thank you so much for coming on. We always appreciate seeing you.

CAMERON: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: Well, coming up, under fire. A Republican Senate candidate in a gunfight with actors playing political opponents in a controversial new ad.

Also ahead, snowboarding legend, Shaun White, telling CNN how he went from the Flying Tomato to the 35-year-old man he is today.

And a drunk driver in Germany leaves a town looking more like a battlefield.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:25:19]

BROWN: In less than 24 hours, Super Bowl LVI gets under way. And the final preparations are in full swing at Sofi Stadium in Inglewood, California.

The Los Angeles Rams will take on the Cincinnati Bengals. And forecasters also predict record breaking heat for the game.

CNN's Camila Bernal is there at the stadium.

So how is the situation there with less than 24 hours to go, Camila?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Pam. We're definitely seeing an increase in security and seeing an increase in prices as well.

It's interesting to see we talked to someone who lives about two blocks from the stadium. They had four parking spots at their home, sold them from $500 each.

This is so extremely beneficial to so many of the businesses in this area especially the ones hit hard by this pandemic.

But it's going to be difficult for law enforcement because you're talking about 100,000 people more or less at the stadium here tomorrow.

And so we know that the federal government, DHS, has been working with local agencies for about a year now, so they'll have about 1,000 or more law enforcement agents on the ground and in the air.

One of the things they're going to be looking at is traffic. Because of the possibility of trucker protests, they're hoping to avoid gridlock. So that's going to be extremely important.

They say that, at the moment, there are no threats in terms of terrorism. They say there's nothing credible at the moment. And they feel like they have everything under control. And they feel like they're prepared.

One thing, though, that many people may not be prepared for. and this is on a much lighter note, is the weather. And that's because we're expecting a record-breaking temperature in terms of Super Bowl Sunday. T

he highest temperature ever recorded for a game was 84 degrees. That was in 1973, also here in Los Angeles. And so they're hoping to beat that tomorrow.

We got to about 90 degrees today. So it's very likely no matter who wins or loses, Pam, we will beat that record.

BROWN: That's amazing, 90 degrees.

All right, Camila, thank you.

Before the big game even begins, we already have our first big fumble of Super Bowl Sunday.

A Republican running for Senate in Arizona is staging behind a campaign ad he says will air tomorrow.

It depicts him in a western-style showdown with President Biden, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and Arizona's Democratic Senator Mark Kelly.

Here's one clip from it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The good people of Arizona have had enough of you. It's time for a showdown.

(MUSIC)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: Besides the problematic juvenile nicknames used in the ad, the campaign commercial is being called out for featuring guns.

Remember Senator Kelly's wife, former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was seriously wounded in a mass shooting in 2011.

Yet, on Twitter. he's been calling his critics, quote, "snowflakes."

And the campaign said in a statement to "The Washington Post," quote, "Jim Lamond will shoot straight to Arkansans and take the fight to Bide. And he sure won't let the left bully him into back down.

Fred Guttenberg, whose daughter, Jaime, died in the Parkland High School massacre, tweeted, "This Monday will be four years since my daughter was murdered. I take commercials like this seriously. The boy who murdered my daughter was motivated by videos like this."

Kelly's campaign isn't commenting.

Snowboarding great, Shaun White, has wrapped his time Olympics. The three-time gold medalist talks to CNN about his emotions and his hairstyle, up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAUN WHITE, RETIRED U.S. OLYMPIC SNOWBOARDER: It's been far more emotional than most just because I knew this was the last.

It was like, wow, you know what? If this is the last time I'm doing this, I better enjoy every moment of it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:38]

BROWN: Day nine of the Beijing Winter Olympics is officially underway. But for some athletes, the games are over, and that includes legendary snowboarder, Shaun White. His final Olympics ended with a fourth place finish.

CNN's Coy Wire sat down with White to discuss his career and the history of his famous hair. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAUN WHITE, AMERICAN FORMER PROFESSIONAL SNOWBOARDER: It's been far more emotional than most just because I knew this was the last. It was like, wow, you know what? Well, if this is the last time of doing this, I better enjoy every moment of it. I better run out in the opening ceremony and like, you know, I got to make the team. I got to make finals. All these things is like this is last time I'm doing it. Obviously wish, you know, that last front would have been a little bit more.

But I was sitting there laughing I'm like if I would have gotten third, I would have, I could have gotten second. And if I got second, I would have gotten first if I just, you know, so --

WIRE: That's how competitive it is.

WHITE: Exactly. So, it is what it is. And I'm so proud of like, you know, not just today but just a whole career I'm leaving behind.

WIRE: I don't want to ever ask someone a kid. What's the second thing you want to be when you grow up? Like you got to live your dream? You said this is the love of your life.

WHITE: Of course, of course.

WIRE: So, how would you describe your relationship with the sport?

WHITE: You know, it's wild. All I wanted to be was a pro snowboarder as a kid. All my school projects were all about, you know, the snow and the temperature. Anything I could to just involve the sport. And to actually go from that young child in those dreams and actually do it's just incredible.

[20:35:09]

And so I think that was one of the most amazing, sort of, revelations of all, this is taking that time to actually look back and be proud of those moments. And not just the up times, you know, not just the good times, you know, like the crashes, the failures, the mistakes, all these things and like who I had to become to overcome all those things and come back to win again. And it's just been this kind of like crazy ride and I've loved every bit of it.

So, sad to hang up the competitive side of my life, but I'm so excited for the rest of it. I'm like, of course, it's snowing, the data leave. I'm like, I could read in some powder up here.

WIRE: It's poetic in a way, man.

WHITE: Yes, nice set up.

WIRE: It's great. It's snowing.

WHITE: Snowing.

WIRE: We're in a snow globe here on the end of an incredible Olympic run. A career spanning 20 years. Congratulations, man.

WHITE: Thank you so much.

WIRE: If you could describe the evolution of your career in terms of your hairstyle.

WHITE: Oh, wow.

WIRE: How would you do that, Shaun?

WHITE: I don't know. I mean, I would -- I have to say I remember being a kid. And it was either like Ricky Martin, it started blowing up or somebody started to spike their hair and, you know, bleach the tips or frost them.

And I remember being like, I can't do that. I'm not into it. And that's when I decided to be different, like, grow my hair out. And then it just became like the signature thing, is long red hair.

It's actually really funny story. I was in Las Vegas, and I bumped into Carrot Top, the comedian.

WIRE: Oh, I'd love to see that side by side.

WHITE: And it was so funny because he was like -- he said something to me. And I was like, yes, I'm thinking about cutting my hair, you know. And he was like the -- what was it, the Ghost of Christmas Future? He's like, look, there's still time for you. Like, I'm stuck like this, you got to change it.

So I was like -- and I went and I didn't tell anyone, no sponsors, parents, friends, anybody. I just went and cut my hair and posted it on my Instagram. And I was kind of in this place where people were like, you won't be recognized without your hair. You know, you have to keep it. And I was like, I have to do it. You know what I mean?

WIRE: I am not into it.

WHITE: Yes, totally. And so, I cut it. And then after that, it's been fun to just mess. It was so much less work.

WIRE:

BROWN: Well, you were in the CNN NEWSROOM.

President Biden says, he quote, rejects the findings of an Army report about Afghanistan. The report says the administration hampered the evacuation last year and put U.S. troops in greater danger. We're going to break it down for the record, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:40:18]

BROWN: It was one of the worst and most memorable crises of the Biden presidency to date. The deadly withdrawal from Afghanistan where 13 U.S. service members were killed, as unforgettable images of desperation and chaos at the Kabul airport and the stranding of U.S. allies in Afghanistan.

Well, now, the president is telling NBC News, he rejects the finding of an Army report -- that his administration was unprepared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS HOST: Does any of that ring true to you?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, no. That's not what I was told.

HOLT: Are you rejecting the conclusions or the accounts that are in this Army report?

BIDEN: Yes, I am.

HOLT: So they're not true.

BIDEN: I'm rejecting them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The purporting question, a 2,000-page government document obtained by the Washington Post after a Freedom of Information Act request, reportedly containing sworn testimony from multiple commanders involved in the operation.

The Post has since published more reports from the Pentagon that appeared to affirm the accounts from these commanders. According to the Post, the report concludes, senior White House and State Department officials failed to grasp the Taliban steady advance on Afghanistan's capital and resisted efforts by U.S. military leaders to prepare the evacuation weeks before Kabul's fall, placing American troops in greater danger.

But it doesn't stop there. The report even contains allegations from one senior commander that the mission to evacuate U.S. citizens and allies was hampered by outside advocates, including the Vatican and First Lady Joe Biden, who reportedly occupied military bandwidth with requests to help specific people during the crisis.

This report paints a scathing picture of the White House and the Pentagon during those 17 fateful days. Before the record, it is no surprise the President would want to downplay its findings or even dispute some of its claims, but one would hope he would want to read this report thoroughly and perhaps learn from it.

But by flat out rejecting it and stubbornly sticking to his prior beliefs, Biden is ignoring the consequences of his own decisions and denying the accounts of the very men and women who risked their lives carrying them out.

Well, despite a slew of controversies, Joe Rogan is the world's most popular podcaster and one of the wealthiest. My next guest studies his appeal, and will an audience, why his audience loves him so much. We're going to have this conversation right after this quick.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:30]

BROWN: Joe Rogan, love him or hate him, as one of the most popular podcast hosts in the world. And despite a slew of recent controversies from spreading other disinformation about COVID to getting caught repeatedly using the N-word, the controversy he courts either rolls off his back or he spends it to his own advantage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR: In a lot of ways like all this is a relief because it's like -- just -- because that video, it's always been out there. It's like this is a political hit job. And so, they're taking all this stuff that I've ever said that's wrong and smushing it all together. It's good because it makes me address some (BLEEP) that I really wish wasn't out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:50:11]

BROWN: Joining me now with more on the Teflon talker, Daniel Russo, researcher and Teaching Fellow in the communications department at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, my alma mater. Welcome, Daniel.

So, let's start with some numbers here, an estimated 11 million people tune in for each episode of "The Joe Rogan Experience." They are overwhelmingly male 71 percent. The average listener age is 24 years old. And the audience is evenly split between high school grads and those who have gone to college. What does all of this tell you about his appeal?

DANIEL RUSSO, RESEARCHER AND TEACHING FELLOW, DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS UNC-CHAPEL HILL: Well, I think Rogan's political mindset fits well with that somewhat narrow demographic makeup of mostly young white males.

Like this category of people, Rogan is quite hard to politically define. He was a Bernie supporter, and certainly cares about important policy proposals like a higher minimum wage or accessible public health care. He also is for the legalization of cannabis and is critical of the police and justice system.

However, this makes him a little bit left leaning, while at the same time obviously holding a variety of traditionally moderate conservative and extreme positions. So, some people like to label this alt-right. I don't think that's quite fitting for Rogan, but there can be parallels made. No matter what though, the ambivalence doesn't mean Rogan is non-ideological as much as some of his fans might want to believe or say, rather, it just means he's being pulled in many directions.

BROWN: One of your colleagues at UNC Greensboro put it like this, let's listen.

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GABRIEL WISNEWSKI-PARKS, RESEARCH FELLOW, UNC GREENSBORO: Who can have on his podcast Ben Shapiro and Alex Jones and have deep and interesting meaningful conversations with them. And then in one other breath, he could have on Cornel West and Bernie Sanders and do the exact same thing, and this really resonates with people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And also, he's able to do that because he keeps him in the chair for hours and hours, right? So, what do you think is unpredictability Joe Rogan's superpower?

RUSSO: Yes. I would say his amicability, at least to whatever persuasive sounding information is being shared with him, coupled with his long-term ambivalence, can definitely explain some of his popularity.

And what partially problematic with this, with Rogan's discourse at large is how often he switches between these frames of admitting ignorance on the one end, and then on the other end, he has those more controversial moments where he's passionately and confidently smearing the scientific community or public institutions or various social movements and identities.

And now, this is not at all to say that scientific communities that government media institutions, even progressive social movements aren't deserving of critique. That seems essential to democracy, of course, but the merits of critique diversity of thought and admitting ignorance notwithstanding, it's Rogan and his guests, and perhaps his fans motive critique their posture of confidence and talk of just being rational just telling it like it is that not only has mass appeal to people who like the astatic of rationality and criticism and non-ideological or apolitical truth telling, but it also leads to some pretty divisive, partisan, and often simply relative notions of truth.

BROWN: One pop culture writer told CNN that his strength is entrusting his audience to draw their own conclusions. Why would that be so powerful at this moment?

RUSSO: Yes. So as I kind of already alluded to, Rogan likes to make the argument that he is merely trying to collect and showcase a diverse range of opinions for the sake of good rational discourse. But, of course, it's crucial to understand that he's, at least, been just disproportionately platforming perspectives that we might consider at their best thought-provoking critical, even exciting, but at their worst, of course, entirely false and dangerous.

And this requires a significant amount of media literacy from his audience, and the rhetorical style in which questionable conversations are being discussed, tend to play at least some role in the perceptions of their legitimacy.

BROWN: All right. Daniel Russo, thank you so much. A drunk driver out of control smashes up a massive path of destruction and apartment building caught fire and dozens of cars were destroyed. Incredibly though no one was killed. More on this story, up next.

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[20:55:30]

BROWN: Stunning video out of Germany. Have you seen this? This is where a drunk driver lost control, demolished part of a city called Furth. At least 31 cars were destroyed. The truck completely burned out and an apartment building actually caught fire. Thankfully, the streets were virtually empty at the time, nobody was killed, which is just amazing. And only three people were hurt, including the driver.

Police say the driver was taken into custody and will be charged with endangering road safety, hit and run driving, and bodily harm. Wow.

Well, don't forget that you can tweet me @PamelaBrownCNN. You can also follow my dog, Bingo, and follow me on Instagram as well. Thank you for joining me this evening.

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