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Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky Makes Clear They'll Join NATO; Biden Administration Pulling Troops From Ukraine. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired February 14, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:01:08]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Very good Monday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto reporting live from Kyiv, Ukraine.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

New this morning, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, making it crystal clear that his country does, in fact, intend to join NATO.

Plus, the Biden administration is pulling troops out of the country, telling Americans to get out now, while warning Russia could launch an invasion at any moment.

SCIUTTO: And we have new reporting this morning inside, into Russia's potential military plan. The latest U.S. intelligence indicates that Russian air and missile attacks would be the start of a military campaign here. And that campaign could begin as soon as the coming days. Those attacks would target key Ukrainian military infrastructure, including air defense and early warning systems.

Russia's plan then, invade Ukraine from multiples points and circle the Capital of Kyiv, where we are now, within 24 to 48 hours.

Still, despite the intensifying situation on the border of Russia, much of life in Ukraine's capital Kyiv, we're finding seems to be going on as normal. We're covering this from all around the world as best we can. Let's bring CNN's Chief International Correspondent who's with me now, Clarissa Ward, as well as Sam Kiley whose out in Kharkiv.

But Clarissa, if I could begin with you. Notable comments today, public comments, deliberately public comments, a conversation between the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and the Russian President Vladimir Putin about the possibility, at least, of diplomacy. What did they say?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So essentially, President Putin asked the Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov whether it was possible to continue these talks. Whether he thought that they could bear some fruit.

And I think, very significantly, you heard Lavrov's words. He said that he believes that these talks are far from exhausted. That they should be continued and increased. And the sort of upshot from all of that and particularly from the Kremlin Press Corp who were reporting on it, was no war, for now, talks will continue.

Lavrov also mentioned the slurry of diplomacy that we're seeing, the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz here in Kyiv today. Tomorrow he will be in Moscow. Other increased diplomatic efforts.

It's not clear at this stage whether this whole scenario with Putin and Lavrov at the table was intended as a deliberate rebuttal to the Americans or to make them look foolish in some way by saying, well you're talking about war you're talking about diplomacy.

But the bottom line is, I think, that they were certainly forecasting or telegraphing that those talks and those diplomatic efforts could still potentially, from their point of view, yield some fruit.

SCIUTTO: Notably, we were saying earlier this morning, the President of Russia would not put out those comments publicly, live on Russian national television knowing that we would be watching as well unless it was a deliberate message.

I do want to talk about something you and I have found here in Kyiv. You've been around the country and our colleagues are finding is that you have this intensity, this growth of Russian forces around the border, but here in Kyiv feels like another late winter day, calm here. Though changing, perhaps, from some of the local politicians.

WARD: I would say that it's absolutely calm, because there's a sense, from many people here, that we've been living under the threat of Russian aggression for eight years. This is nothing new.

But we are starting to see small movements, preparations being announced. We heard from the mayor of Kyiv, who was talking about the fact that they are preparing shelters should there be some kind of a bombing campaign. They are looking into evacuations should that become necessary. They're also working on developing some kind of a communication system if the grid was taken out, if mobile phone installations were taken out, things of that nature.

So, they're trying to continue to project this aura of calm, which is very important in terms of not panicking the people, not making the economy collapse. But at the same time, underneath that, there is also this sense that preparations are being made should the worse-case scenario play out.

[10:05:00]

SCIUTTO: Yes, I think it (ph) would be remiss not to. And you mentioned cell phone networks, et cetera, electronic warfare part of any Russian campaign to kind of clear the battlefield before the troops come in.

We have Sam Kiley, whose in Kharkiv, further to the east and just 30 miles, in fact, from the Russian border. I know -- I know, Sam, you've been finding there, even closer to the border what we've been finding and hearing here, which is that most folks going on with their lives. Not with a visible sense of urgency.

But on the military side, there are you seeing the Ukrainian military make preparations?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Short answer to that is, no. Not at all. We've been out to the border. We've driven either side of the main road between here and Belgrade, which is only 78 kilometers, about 50 miles away. Around Belgrade, Jim, we've got reporting from inside Russia that indicates that the 1st Tank Army, the 1st Guards Tank Army is massing, pretty much in total force.

We've also got reporting that overnight, in the last 24 hours or so, helicopter gunships have arrived. And still on the borders, some five or eight miles away from where these troops are believed to be massing. And we've seen these troops in satellite imagery. We've got social media that we've geolocated. We know that they're there.

And yet, the only presence of Ukrainian troops was a handful of border guards who asked us to push off because this was a sort of military area and they didn't want people running around with cameras.

A similar attitude came from the local population there, Jim, also very relaxed. Saying well we've lived with the Russians on our doorstep, we speak Russian, we're not that fussed by it.

And -- but if you look then deeper into what is actually going on here, I think it's very important and it ties the kind of local son foi (ph), if you like, with the grand diplomacy. As things stand at the moment, under NATO rules, it is impossible, completely impossible for this country of Ukraine to join NATO because it has the Crimea, which has been annexed to Russia.

And it's got an ongoing territorial dispute also in the Donbas. So that means that whatever Putin may be demanding it can't happen. The (inaudible) of it cannot happen, Jim.

SCIUTTO: It's a very good point and it gets to a larger point here, that this something of a manufactured crisis by Russia, because it is not something that is imminent, that membership in NATO. And, by the way, has been a fact of life, at least the possibility, for a number of years now.

Sam Kiley, good to have you there. Clarissa Ward as well, thanks very much.

GOLODRYGA: And back in the U.S. the Pentagon says several National Guard soldiers have left Ukraine, warning that the situation there is, indeed, escalating. This, as the U.S. is providing the country with some 180 tons of ammunition.

CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr is here with more. So Barbara, as of today what is the status of U.S. troops?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the first bottom line, if you will, is the president remains adamant U.S. troops will not go into Ukraine. U.S. troops will not encounter and fight Russians. Going into Ukraine for the U.S. military is off the table.

So, what is happening? Well, about 150 Florida National Guard that were inside Ukraine as trainers have now been removed, evacuated to a location in Europe, probably likely to come home, back to Florida, at some point. But, that is due to the security situation.

The U.S. not talking, yet, about the fate of U.S. Special Operations Forces, which are also in western Ukraine doing training. Not clear if they are still there. No indication they have left yet.

There are about 3,000 additional members of the 82nd Airborne Division that have been -- are being sent, have largely been sent already to eastern Poland. They are joining 1,700 of their fellow soldier already there.

Those 82nd Airborne troops in eastern Poland will now set up, essentially, border transit points as Americans come out of Ukraine. And the most likely route right now is to the west into Poland.

They will set up border control points on the Polish side of the border and assist Americans in making their arrangements to get back to the United States or wherever they want to go. All of this underscoring that regardless of the diplomacy, the U.S. is still very much in the position of telling Americans it is time to leave. Bianna?

GOLODRYGA: Listen, they don't want a repeat of what happened in Afghanistan. That is very clear at this point. Barbara Starr, thank you.

STARR: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Joining us now to discuss all this, CNN Military Analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton. He's a retired Air Force colonel and intelligence officer.

Cedric, good to have you on this morning. You're an intelligence office --

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST AND RETIRED AIR FORCE COLONEL AND INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: Good to be with you, Jim.

[10:10:00]

SCIUTTO: You were looking at intel around the world for years. As you know better than me, intelligence is not perfect and there are pieces of it, there is -- there is looking at the movement of military equipment, et cetera, listening in on conversations, but there's also judgments involved as what you think a foreign leader might do.

When you look at all we know and all the moves that he has made so far do you see this as an act of brinkmanship by the Russian president or preparations for an invasion?

LEIGHTON: I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, you know, quite frankly, what he's doing is, you know, going right to the edge. You know, when Sam Kiley talked about the deployments of the Russian forces in his sector right along the Ukrainian, Russian border, it brought to mind some of the movements that the Russians have done in the past. And in some cases, they've crossed those borders. In other cases, they haven't.

So from an intelligence perspective, what you're looking at is the very possibility that, you know, this is going to happen. And I think intelligence professionals, like myself and others, always go for, you know, several possible courses of action that someone like Putin could undertake.

And we tend to go for the worse-case scenario, in other words, the worse case for us or for the people that we're trying to support. So, that's the kind of thing that we're seeing here, is doing, you know, something that will get him right to that edge, too, you know, to the brinksmanship type of area. But, he's also getting ready to potentially do something and it certainly gives him the option to move forward should he choose to do so.

GOLODRYGA: Along those lines of worse case scenarios here, one hypothesis that I continue to hear is that this is a different Putin than even we saw in 2014, that something has changed within him.

Perhaps, it's being isolated these past two years during COVID. Surrounding himself with limited number of advisors, his siloviki, his security officials, who are just as hawkish as he is. And perhaps that has changed his outlook permanently as to the role Russia plays, not only in the world, but in relation with the west.

How alarming should that be to military officials and, quite frankly, former -- heads of state?

LEIGHTON: I think it, Bianna, it should be quite alarming. Because, you know, when somebody is isolated or when they only hear their own press and, you know, think that they are doing all the right things, making all the right moves, that gives them a -- you know -- in an isolated sense, it gives them the idea that they might even be invincible.

And it's that feeling of invincibility that sometimes brings leaders to make some pretty faithful decisions, some decisions that can be actually very bad not only for themselves but for the people that they are supposedly leading.

So, in this case, I think Putin is, you know, he's definitely at risk of getting into a situation that he can't extricate himself from. On the other hand, he might just very well know which levers to pull and take us right to the edge without going over that edge.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Colonel Leighton, the issue of NATO, of course, central in this conflict. And we heard the Ukrainian president a short time ago reiterate that Ukraine is interested in the possibility of joining NATO.

But privately, Ukrainian officials will say or at least speak about perhaps a middle option, where it doesn't foreswear NATO membership, but that there's something you can do in between. Perhaps, put it off for five years, a set period of time, with the security guarantees from the U.S. and the west as well as from Russia to avoid a war today over this issue. Is there a middle ground?

LEIGHTON: Oh yes, I think there could be, Jim. And I -- and it certainly would be possible. We have historical precedent for that kind of thing. I mean, in the extreme sense, you know, you have an outright Russian takeover, but the middle ground would be something like Finlandization, which, you know, for those who have come after the Cold War that basically means a country that is somewhat free to run its own internal affairs, but it's very much tied to Russia in terms of what it does externally and what it does in other respects.

Now, that -- the option that you spoke about is something that is closer to a western view of how things should be and is definitely different from Finlandization, would be more akin to what happened say with a country like Sweden or Switzerland even, no relationship with NATO, but some ties that involve, you know, things like purchasing defense equipment and doing things with NATO forces, but not being a part of NATO.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Sir -- sure, similar, for instance, to the U.S. agreement say with Taiwan as opposed to a mutual defense treaty as the U.S. has with South Korea and Japan.

Colonel Cedric Leighton, always good to have you on the program.

LEIGHTON: Thanks so much, Jim. Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, I'll speak with a former White House advisor who is warning that America cannot make the same mistake it did here in 2014 and underestimate the Russian president.

[10:15:05]

GOLODRYGA: Plus, a bridge critical to the North American economy reopens. But some border crossings are still being blocked by people protesting COVID restrictions. We're live on the Canadian border, up next.

And later, a Hollywood ending to Sunday's Super Bowl, but it wasn't just the athletes with a lot invested. We speak with the legendary "Mattress Mack" in my home city of Houston, Texas, who made and lost nearly $10 million Super Bowl gamble.

[10:15:30]

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[10:20:08]

GOLODRYGA: Traffic is flowing once again across a key trade route linking the U.S. and Canada. This after police cleared out COVID- mandate protestors there. Demonstrators blocked the Ambassador Bridge between Detroit and Windsor, Ontario for nearly one week, crippling supply chains and costing millions of dollars in lost business.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is live in Winsor. And Miguel, traffic as we see behind you is moving now. Are there concerns that protesters may come back and they're not done causing these disruptions?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, most definitely. That is the main concern in the immediate future for police here. Which, you know, after all of the drama of the last week it ended sort of with a whimper, about 30 arrests, about 12 cars were eventually towed. Great patience and restraint on the part of police who just basically waited out the protestors for a couple of days before moving them all out.

But, now the challenge is going to be keeping that corridor open, because the bridge, when you get off on the Canadian side it's about three miles of surface streets till you hit the next highway and there's lots of areas where they can -- protestors have said they're going to get in, they're going to try to slow things down.

There is still a very heavy police presence along this route trying to keep anyone who moves in there moving along and not letting anyone stop basically. So, it's going to have to continue for a while, because you have protests, border protests across Canada as well, several other locations across Canada. Much smaller border crossings than this one and not -- they don't pack nearly the economic punch as the -- as the closing of the border crossing here. But other protests in Canada still going on.

And then, obviously, in Ottawa as well where protestors have taken over Parliament Hill there and refusing to leave and maybe some will leave and then they don't. So there's a lot of fighting going on among the protestors themselves.

This started off as anti-vaccine protest, then it was anti-mandate, now it's sort of generically anti-government, all wrapped into this sort of the notion or the Guys of Freedom, you know, whatever that means to these individuals, basically they want exactly what they want, which is all those restrictions gone so that -- because they believe that they are -- they're just -- that they're -- that they're just not necessary to the public at large.

Back to you.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, the courts there in Canada having to intervene at the end there. And, of course, the concern remains about copycat protests both and Canada and the United States. Nice to see traffic flowing, though, this morning behind you.

Miguel Marquez, thank you.

Well, gas prices are still climbing across the country and could surge even higher because of the global crisis we've been talking about on this how, including mostly the tensions between Russia and Ukraine. The national average is now sitting at $3.49 a gallon this morning.

And CNN's Gabe Cohen looks at if Americans will see any relief anytime soon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Add gas prices to the list of surging costs weighing on American's wallets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The price has been a little bit more each time.

COHEN (voice over): The national average now around $3.44 a gallon, up more than a $1.00 from a year ago and the highest since 2014.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is like, damn, like it changes the way I pump gas.

COHEN (voice over): And it's only getting worse. Approaching the record national average of $4.11.

COHEN: Do you think we could hit that record in the months ahead?

PATRICK DEHAAN, HEAD PETROLEUM ANALYSIS AT GASBUDDY: I think we have a very good chance.

COHEN (voice over): It's an issue of supply and demand, dating back to the start of COVID. Just look at this rollercoaster chart of U.S. gas prices over time. In March 2020, prices plummeted, Americans weren't on the road. Oil producers, including OPEC, cut back on investments and operations. They had nowhere to store extra oil.

HELMA CROFT, GLOBAL HEAD OF COMMODITY STRATEGY RBC CAPITAL MARKETS: They laid off employees. They didn't work their rigs.

COHEN (voice over): But when the vaccines rolled out demand for fuel skyrocketed, more than experts expected and the oil industry didn't have the supply. They're still playing catch up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't just turn on a spigot. These are long- cycle projects.

COHEN (voice over): So gas prices have been surging for 14 months, only briefly dipping during Omicron. Demand is back at pre-pandemic levels. Even AAA can't explain that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they're trying to kind of figure it out right now.

COHEN (voice over): And the conflict on the Ukrainian border is adding a new strain. Russia is the world's second largest oil producer. If the crisis escalates, J.P. Morgan says oil prices could soar, from $91 a barrel to $130.

CROFT: If we were to see Russia potentially withhold energy exports the question would be who could make up for that.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm going to work like the devil to bring gas prices down.

COHEN (voice over): It's a huge political problem for the Biden administration, which says it's now engaging with oil-producing countries to increase production, preparing to go after firms that manipulate prices and considering dipping back into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

In November, they announced the release of 50 million barrels from that supply.

[10:25:00]

DEHAAN: And it resulted in very little more like negligible impact.

CROFT: At this price point you'll start to see more production come back. But there's still a gap that needs to be filled.

COHEN (voice over): One source of hope, new talks with Iran over a nuclear deal. If that gets done, western companies could start buying more Iranian oil. But as of now, oil prices are expected to keep rising for months, adding fuel to inflation on everything from groceries to store goods and driving price hikes at the pump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it's not just my car. It's every single aspect of my life is impacted by gas prices.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: And right now some American oil companies are making big investments to ramp up production, even as some in the industry say there's uncertainty and even tension with the Biden administration over regulations.

But still, this process to actually ramp up production, that's going to take time, with the experts, Bianna, at Gasbuddy, one of the companies you heard from in that story saying, these shortages and as a result these price hikes could continue into late summer.

GOLODRYGA: Wow, just in time for the Memorial Day peak driving season. And another reminder as to why Americans should care about what's happening around the world.

Gage Cohen, thank you.

Well still ahead, healthcare workers across the country face a patchwork of deadlines for full vaccination. Some must have their first dose by today to meet federal deadlines.

We'll have that story up next.

[10:26:25]

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