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U.S. Intel: Russian Military Plans Include Circling Kyiv, Air & Missile Campaign; Interview with Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD); Parents' Frustration Grows Over Vaccine Delay for Children Under 5. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired February 14, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You'll have eight white people, three black people and one Hispanic, a much different makeup than the state trial when it was 11 to 1 white to black on that jury. But the parents of Ahmaud Arbery says it shouldn't matter how diverse or non-diverse the jury is. The evidence is there to convict -- Alisyn, Victor.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK, Nadia Romero, thank you.

(MUSIC)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAMEROTA: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

The U.S. is closing its embassy in Kyiv and temporarily relocating the small number of remaining diplomatic people to Lviv. It's the latest sign that the U.S. believes the Russian invasion of Ukraine could happen any day now as several American officials have put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NED PRICE, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We are intensifying our efforts to deter Russia and to impose cost should Moscow decide to go ahead with military action. Whatever happen next -- happens next, we are resolute in our support for Ukraine's sovereign, for Ukraine's territorial integrity and we will continue our assistance to the people of Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: A senior U.S. official briefed on the intelligence also says that Russia could invade this week and Russian president Vladimir Putin continues to station more troops along the Ukrainian border despite months of diplomatic pleas to stop.

CAMEROTA: U.S. intelligence indicates that Russian air and missile attacks could begin as soon as this week. The U.S. believes Russia could target key Ukrainian military infrastructure including air defenses and early warning systems.

And the Russians would then invade by entering from multiple points in the east and the north. That would include encircling the capital of Kyiv within one or two days from the start of the invasion.

CNN's Erin Burnett is in Lviv, Ukraine, for us. That's where the U.S. staff are relocating.

So, Erin, what have you learned about the arrival any of U.S. personnel there?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": So I understand that it is going to be sort of for emergency consular services. Obviously, the vast majority of Americans from the embassy have already left the country as the United States has been very clear they want all Americans to leave Ukraine, but we understand that it would be for emergency consular services, that they would maintain that for now here in Lviv.

But, you know, it all comes as you have got the Pentagon saying that Putin has moved more troops to the border. Obviously, to the north of here and on the Eastern border with Russia over the past 24 to 48 hours. And, you know, what's interesting is the words he used when asked, what else could Putin do? Would he still choose that diplomatic path out, which is still open, right, the State Department saying they've not yet received, moments ago saying they've not yet received a formal response to the U.S. and NATO's response that they sent to Putin about his demands.

But as Admiral Kirby said, the spokesman for the Pentagon, it strains credulity to think that you would put now 130,000 troops and counting along the border with this country and have -- and do nothing with them. And that is the crucial question. And, obviously, he's saying they could move incredibly quickly.

Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon.

I know, Barbara, you were part of that press conference that Admiral Kirby had. It is -- it is interesting. As he said, strains credulity to imagine that you would build up the force as Putin has and then not move in some way.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's where we are, actually, today, and that is -- it is extremely peculiar. But perhaps part of the Russian playbook to put pressure on the world over this and not do much about it. Putin at least has succeeded in putting that pressure on NATO and on Ukraine certainly.

What the Pentagon is seeing, we are told, is that as you just said, Erin, over the last 24 to 48 hours, additional Russian troops, additional Russian equipment moving towards the borders. They're not given an exact number on how many Russian troops but broadly describing it as well north of 100,000 troops. So this gives Putin now in the eyes of the Biden administration a very broad and deep capability, a military capability to go into Ukraine.

He can do it by air. He can do it by multiple approaches from land. He can even do it by sea. He has warships in the Black Sea to the south.

So this is a very significant capability by Putin. The question, of course, is what will he do with it?

And it's going to be a very interesting week because Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is taking off for Brussels. There's a NATO defense minister summit in Brussels on the middle of the week. And that is the very time that the U.S. is concerned Russia could make its move just as NATO is meeting -- Erin.

BURNETT: Thank you very much, Barbara Starr.

[15:05:02]

And pretty incredible, Victor and Alisyn, you know, from where we sit about 400, 500 miles away is that air base where Defense Secretary Austin is going to be going on Thursday where a lot of the U.S. troops that have been coming in to support NATO have been coming, 82nd airborne.

So, you know, you've got that -- those additional U.S. troops coming. About 500 miles from where we are as you see this, frankly, incredible build up coming on all sides.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. Thank you very much. It's so helpful to have you on the ground there and explain what you are seeing from that vantage point.

Erin Burnett, thank you very much.

Let's get the perspective from Moscow. CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is there.

So, Nic, what is the Kremlin saying about all of the latest developments that we've been reporting on today?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, there's some very interesting sort of choreography going on here today. President Putin met on television very sort of carefully choreographed along a long table with his Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov. And Lavrov gave a complete read out of all the sort of diplomatic comings and goings, the phone calls, the heads of state, the -- you know, the foreign ministers that have come.

And then, at the end of it, President Putin said, and is there a chance for diplomacy? And at that moment, Lavrov sort of, you know, doesn't miss a beat, says, you know, we've had these leaders. You saw Macron. You had a phone call with him, you had a phone call with President Biden and, yes, I think there is. These were his exact words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): If we're ready to listen to counterproposals, it seems to me that our possibilities are far from being exhausted. Of course, they should not continue indefinitely, but at this stage, I would suggest that they be continued and increased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: So let's put this in a bit of context. This is a staged performance. It's on TV. It's there for everyone in the country to see. It's there for the international community to see.

I think it's too soon to know what we can read into it. The fact that Putin seems to go along with the idea that diplomacy can still work, but what does that really mean? We don't know.

But this is, perhaps, the first indication we've had from President Putin about what he is willing to do because so far there's been really very few clues. And then another maybe half a clue came a bit later in the day when he met with his defense minister, Sergey Shoygu. And, again, it was sort of a scripted conversation where Shoygu e gives him the rundown of military exercises and then says at the end of it, and some of those exercises are coming to an end and some will come to an end in the near future.

Again, I don't think we can read too much into it. But this is the signaling coming out of the Kremlin today.

BLACKWELL: An important element you say there that this is all choreographed. The question, of course, is to what end.

Nic Robertson for us in Moscow, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, we just heard from Pentagon that Russia could invade now with very little to no warning. So, let's bring in retired Army General Spider -- James "Spider" Marks, a CNN military analyst.

So, Spider, Ukraine is in a very precarious position, obviously, and the map explains all of the troop build up, where it is today. So, tell us what you're seeing.

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yeah, clearly what's happening is that Putin is increasing his exercises and is increasing his numbers we assess. Now, bear in mind, this is based on intelligence analysis. When things start to move and dust gets picked up, units are moving from containment areas into exercise areas, all intended to increase readiness. I mean, that's why you do exercises. And I think John Kirby laid that out pretty well.

In the analysis piece of all of that, you start doing a head count. In many cases you have to make sure your numbers match. What happens inevitably is you err on the side of more as opposed to less. So what we're seeing is a build up. And there probably is a build up but we can't confirm specifically, but what that gives Putin is a more ready force prepared to do what he wants them to do.

That's why you conduct exercises. That's why they move out of containment areas. That's why they're out there exercising. And in Belarus, it's a combined exercise with their partners, the Belarus military. The concern is, in my mind, is that when we look at this, those

capabilities are there and we've talked about this before, but we clearly don't know what's in Putin's head. He doesn't have enough forces to take over Ukraine. They're not there. They are simply not there.

And can he get to Kyiv and can he rubble Kyiv or isolate Kyiv? Absolutely. Very quickly.

Two things to consider. One, he does a lot of damage. He doesn't have an economy that can fix that damage and he doesn't want to bite off more than he can chew there.

And the other thing we don't talk about is he'll have to push those forces from Belarus through the Chernobyl explosion zone. And we talked about that. That's a mission I don't think he wants to have his forces conduct.

[15:10:04]

That's a nasty nuclear spill zone. Why would he want to do that?

And why would he want to bring that into Kyiv and then own it and have to fix that thing up? So I think we'll see a limited invasion.

BLACKWELL: Yeah, General, it's interesting. The reporting from our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto who is in Lviv is that one of the options is to encircle Kyiv from a senior administration official, briefed on intelligence.

Does Putin want that type of urban war? Does it suggest that's something he wants to invest in?

MARKS: Absolutely not. That's ghastly. That's the three-block war. Trying to kill somebody on one block, build something on another block and trying to evacuate folks on the third block. I mean, that's horrible stuff and we experienced that in our near past, right? In places like Fallujah and Iraq and Baghdad. That's nasty, horrible stuff, and we knows that.

And he tried to do stuff like that in Afghanistan. He saw the challenges that we had in Iraq. Putin is not an idiot. He is reading what he has seen and is making an assessment.

And if he were to do a quick strike into Ukraine, and try to break a few things and minimize it and try to replace Zelensky, that's a tough mission. You just don't walk in and say, here's the new guy, get in place (INAUDIBLE). You're going to have an insurgency taking place immediately.

Again, that takes a lot of time, a lot of force. But the Russians are not shy about breaking stuff. But they can't break stuff and then try to own it. If they want to waste land in Ukraine, they can achieve it. It's going to take a lot of time and I'm certain Putin doesn't want that. CAMEROTA: Spider, let's pull up this other map that we have and maybe

you can walk us through where that sort of nuclear waste zone that you're talking about is where they don't want to go and then where they likely would cross the border and invade.

MARKS: Yeah, I think when you look at that, when you identify Kyiv, and then just to the north and to the east of Kyiv is this nuclear exclusion zone. Bear in mind, that's not very well-defined, precise piece of geography, right?

Remember what happened in 1986, you had this amazing nuclear accident and most of Europe was then affected by the down stream wind effects. Horrible, horrible disaster that took place. So, over the course of 30-plus years there's been some containment, but it still exists. It's going to be there for a million years.

So that exists -- that's a legitimate barrier to a military advance. You have to consider the terrain. It's very much a part of the terrain. It defines what it is you're trying to do.

That's why I think these exercises in Belarus are really to draw our attention. We need to pay attention to it because capabilities are there.

But I think what we're going to see is an increase in the presence in Donbas then expansion of that and that can be done probably with very little shots fired, if any at all, because the Russians are already there. Those lines of communication are there and he, Putin, could expand that to the Dnieper River and you essentially cut Ukraine off on the Black Sea and create a land bridge to Crimea. Now it's connected. And Ukraine now begins to atrophy, if you will. Their independence is really at risk and he, Putin, doesn't have to do a thing with Zelensky. Zelensky loses credibility. He gets voted out and suddenly Putin takes a little bit of a long view of this and begins to put in place those folks that can be a part of Ukraine of a future that aligns itself with Moscow.

BLACKWELL: All right, Major General Spider Marks, thank you.

MARKS: You bet.

BLACKWELL: And joining us now, Senator Ben Cardin, Democrat from Maryland. He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Sir, thank you for your time.

I want to ask about some of the troop specifics in a moment. But you've got a briefing coming up in about 15 minutes from White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan.

What are the questions at the top of your list that you need answers to?

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-MD): Well, Victor, first, it's good to be with you. I think we already know that Russia has the troops on the border that

could do a full military incursion into Ukraine, including entering Kyiv. We know that.

We know they've been building this up for some time. The capacity now is there. They could strike at any time.

We also know that the decision will be made by one person. That's Mr. Putin. We know his playbook. We know that he has done these types of military actions in the past.

So, I think at this particular moment, we want to know how effective our strategies have been, the unity in the West. How we've been able to give Ukrainians help to defend themselves and what is lined up as consequences if Mr. Putin, in fact, does enter further into Ukraine.

[15:15:04]

So, there's questions to be asked and answered. But I think at this particular moment, we know exactly what's going on on the ground. And we know that Mr. Putin is the person who is going to make that decision. He may have already made it one way or another. We certainly cannot believe what's been said at these staged events that took place today in Moscow.

BLACKWELL: So, yeah, let's talk about that. What you make of these seemingly contradictory components?

On one hand, we just heard from Admiral Kirby that even over the last 24 to 48 hours there's been a build up of troops especially north of Ukraine there at the Belarusian border, but also as you referenced from the Russian foreign minister, Mr. Lavrov, where he says on state television that talks should not continue indefinitely, but at this stage, he suggested they be continued and increased. It seems like you give no credence to that call.

CARDIN: We know that Mr. Putin's playbook includes propaganda. It includes misleading the public and the global community. We've already seen that in some of the information that's been released about Mr. Putin's intent in trying to say that it could be stirred up by the locals in Ukraine. We know how Mr. Putin conducts his affairs. And part of it is propaganda and just saying things that aren't true.

BLACKWELL: So let me take a thread from your first answer and a thread from your second answer. The first answer you said he might have already made the decision on whether to further invade Ukraine. The second answer you said that this is propaganda.

So, do you believe that Putin has made the decision? And also, are these talks from your opinion moot, the time for diplomacy has ended and this is just used to bide time until he wants to go in?

CARDIN: I really don't know whether Mr. Putin has made that decision. I don't think anyone knows for sure. But I know the unity we've seen under President Biden's leadership with our partners in Europe, their resolve that you see for us supporting Ukraine's sovereignty, the fact that we have supplied along with our allies so much help to the Ukrainians to defend themselves and that we're very clear of the consequences that will take place if Mr. Putin further incurs into Ukraine.

I think all of that is weighing in Mr. Putin's decision-making equation. So I think we're doing everything we possibly can to avoid this military action. But I don't think anyone knows what Mr. Putin is going to do other than Mr. Putin.

BLACKWELL: So, on the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.K., when he said recently that potentially the Ukraine would pull back from its demand to join NATO if they could avert this potential invasion. The Ukrainian government comes out and says that is not true. Of course, it's part of the Ukrainian constitution.

But what we heard from a top U.K. official was that if Kyiv decided to go that direction that they would support that.

Is there an appetite for that type of appeasement within NATO?

CARDIN: I don't think the Ukrainian government is going to give up their sovereignty. That's what this is all about, when a sovereign nation can make their own decisions. Quite frankly, whatever Ukraine decides, it's not up to NATO. It's up to Ukraine as to what type of security alliances they want to enter into.

So, certainly, we would respect their judgment, but we also support their sovereignty - not only their political sovereignty but also their geographical sovereignty. So --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: So if Kyiv chose that, you would back it?

CARDIN: If Kyiv -- we can't require them to join an alliance.

BLACKWELL: Yeah.

CARDIN: It's up to the government itself to want -- to do that and they have to comply with a lot of requirements. At this particular moment, they couldn't comply with.

So it's not really an immediate decision. We're not talking about entering into NATO in the very near future. There's still a lot of that open issues. But that should be made by the Ukrainians and ultimately by NATO.

So it's a decision that should not be based on what Moscow wants. However, we respect the sovereignty of Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: Yeah, certainly. I mean, sure, I guess I'm asking you to -- I'm asking you to prove a negative here, but it certainly was a question that President Putin put to the U.S. and the U.S. responded in writing, saying that they would not submit to that demand.

Senator Ben Cardin of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, thank you.

CARDIN: Good to be with you.

BLACKWELL: All right.

CAMEROTA: OK, now to this. If you're a parent of a toddler, you probably want to know when you'll be able to vaccinate your child. The HHS secretary just spoke to CNN about this, and we will update you.

BLACKWELL: And today marks four years since the shooting in Parkland, Florida. Some survivors and victims' family members, they want President Biden to make good on his promise during the campaign to go after guns to -- some gun control.

[15:20:01]

Some gun safety. They're going to extremes to get his attention. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: There's a growing frustration among some parents whose young children can still not get the COVID-19 vaccine. The FDA delayed a meeting to consider emergency use authorization of Pfizer's two-dose vaccine designed for kids under 5.

CAMEROTA: The panel wants more information about a three-dose vaccine which Pfizer says likely will not come until April. Now, with several state mask mandates disappearing, the U.S. Health and Human Services secretary says parents should take precautions.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

XAVIER BECERRA, HHS SECRETARY: If you'll let your child out in the world and there's COVID out there and there is, and your child may be too young to get vaccinated, take all the precautions you know that work, whether it's masking, social distancing, hygiene.

[15:25:09]

Make sure you got the tests that the president has made available. If your child is old enough to be vaccinated, please, don't wait until your child is sick.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. With us now is Dr. Leana Wen, CNN medical analyst and former Baltimore health commissioner. She's also the author of "Lifelines: A Doctor's Journey in the Fight for Public Health."

Dr. Wen, always great to see you.

Here is the confusion among parents. Let me just walk you through the chronology, OK, of the different things they've heard about vaccinating their toddlers. March of 2021, Pfizer begins clinical trials on children aged 6 months to 11 years. Nine months later, OK, December 17th, Pfizer says it's adding a third dose to the trial for children under 5 after two doses did not work basically. They did not produce the expected immune response in children age 2 to 5.

Then February 1st, Pfizer seeks emergency use authorization for just a two-dose vaccine. Okay. We thought it didn't work. That was for children 6 months to 5 years. Then ten days later, February 11th, FDA postpones their February 15th vaccine advisory meeting in order to collect more data on three doses.

So I don't blame parents for being confused right now.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I mean, you're right, Alisyn. There is a huge amount of whiplash. This is a group that's already very frustrated because children under the age of 5 are the only group still unable to be vaccinated. So, we're talking about 20 million or so families that don't have the immune protection that everybody else is able to get.

I'm one of these families. I've got two kids under 5. So, I certainly understand the frustration. And how it feels to be told we have to wait. It sounds like at least until April which means if this is a three-dose vaccine, that our children may not be fully vaccinated until, earliest, by June, which is a long time away.

I think what the takeaway for me at this point is we have to trust the process. It sounds like what was happening before was the FDA was saying with high numbers of omicron cases if we're testing three doses of the vaccine, why not give parents the option to get two doses because two doses seem to be safe. If we're going to be doing three anyway, why not get started with two doses. But there's a good argument to be made of that's just not how the process should work. We don't approve drugs and therapeutics saying, well, a third dose may work in the future.

So let me give you two doses now. That's not how this works, and I know that when I'm talking to other parents, I want to tell them without any reservation that these vaccines are safe and effective. I don't want to say it's safe and maybe effective with an asterisk. So I think that, to me, this says that the FDA is doing their job. They are not taking any shortcuts, and I trust the process.

BLACKWELL: OK. Let me ask you about this. Former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb says the lifting of mask mandates across the country is now shifting the responsibility onto the individual.

Let's listen to Dr. Gottlieb.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Policymakers are clearly shifting the burden onto individuals to try to protect themselves based on their own measure of their risk and the risk of their environment. It's incumbent upon policymakers to give people the tools to do that, but there are pockets of society that don't have those tools. Like young children who don't have vaccines. So parents are in a difficult spot. They'll continue to have to remain vigilant if they're concerned about the risk of infection in those young children. But this is clearly a trend right now across the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: How much should those who are under 5 and cannot be vaccinated yet, those who are immunocompromised and aren't getting the antibody reaction they're hoping for leave the decisions that cities are making on shifting some of these mandates.

WEN: Well, first, we should be clear about what the messaging needs to be, which is that lifting a government-imposed mask mandate doesn't mean that it's suddenly safe. It doesn't mean that people should go out and rip off their masks because COVID is gone. It just means the decision is no longer a mandate but it's now something that one can and probably should still be doing, but people should be choosing to do that especially if they are immunocompromised, especially if they are living with somebody who is not yet vaccinated. They want to take additional precautions.

Now I do think that there's a level of unfairness in this and that life has now become less safe for those who are the most vulnerable, including younger children, including those who are immunocompromised, because if they're going to be surrounded by people who are maybe unvaccinated and also unmasked, they could be more exposed than before.

But that's why people should take additional precautions, including one-way masking. Wearing a high quality N95, KN95 mask, especially if they're adults, or older individuals, and also for the younger people, the children under 5 surrounding them by others who are vaccinated and boosted. We know that that helps to reduce their risk of contracting COVID-19.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Leana Wen, thank you.

WEN: Thank you so much.