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January 6 Committee Expects Giuliani to Cooperate Fully with Subpoena; Graham: Trump Hurting Reelection Chances if He Focuses on 2020; Judge to Dismiss Sarah Palin Defamation Lawsuit Against New York Times; American Erin Jackson Wins Gold in 500M Speedskating. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 14, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: We know that that helps to reduce their risk of contracting COVID-19.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Dr. Leana Wen thank you.

WEN: Thanks so much.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Rudy Giuliani is engaging with the House select committee investigating the Capitol insurrection and is expected to cooperate fully with the investigation. We'll discuss, next.

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[15:35:00]

CAMEROTA: Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump's former attorney, who helped lead efforts to try to overturn the 2020 election is reportedly set to meet with the January 6th committee to -- and to, quote, cooperate fully with investigators.

BLACKWELL: Giuliani was scheduled to appear before the committee last week, but that deposition was delayed as the committee negotiates with Giuliani's team over the scope and details of the interview.

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Harry Litman. He's the former U.S. attorney and a former deputy assistant attorney general. Harry great to see you. This is very interesting. This turn around with Rudy Giuliani, because but just last month, his attorney said that he did not believe that Rudy Giuliani would cooperate with the committee because he was going to cite basically executive privilege or attorney/client privilege. But Michael Cohen, who is Donald Trump's former fixer, had a very different prediction about what Giuliani would do. So, here's that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL TO DONALD TRUMP: When confronted, rest assured, Rudy has no love for Donald. To the same extent that Donald has no love for Rudy either. And they will both turn on each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So, what do you think now is behind these reports that Rudy Giuliani will cooperate?

In a word, wishful thinking. Look, he certainly should. He's a former U.S. attorney. He got a subpoena. You show up, raise your right hand and tell the whole truth. But if you look carefully at the reporting, Alisyn, I really do think there's a little bit of hopeful kind of posturing there.

CAMEROTA: Why? Like what are you reading?

What we really know -- the only thing we really know is his attorney has been kind of nice in the latest overture where he got the postponement. Now, remember, there have been 18 witnesses who have spurned the committee and Giuliani is probably calculating they'll take whatever they can get, including possibly not having to be deposed and be subject to perjury.

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Also, he is -- I don't dispute what Michael Cohen is saying. Moreover, there appears to be a real fight about fees and this could be a little bit of a move there. But Giuliani is dripping with potential criminal liability. The whole forgery gate is what they call a hub and spoke conspiracy. He's the hub and the different states are the spokes. He is at the center of the whole thing. He's got, among other reasons to, you know, be hesitant, his own criminal liability. I'll believe it when I see it. He may be bargaining for a very sweet kind of minimal cooperation or it might just be a, you know, complete cosmetic nice -- making of nice before saying, see ya later.

BLACKWELL: Yes, when your attorney is kind of nice, not nice but kind of nice, you really can tell.

LITMAN: That's rude. It's a turn around. Attorney kind of nice.

BLACKWELL: Kind of nice.

So, Gloria Borger and Jamie Gangel, they got this new reporting on CNN.com where they talk about the president -- former president's use of phones. That the cell phones were rotated in and out. He didn't want anyone listening. Apparently, that's the reason he would often take and make calls from other cell phones, demanding cell phones from members of his security detail. Others would call him on others' phones.

As the committee is trying to fill this hole, hours-long hole on January 6th from the White House call logs, how does this complicate the mission to figure out the communications that day?

LITMAN: A fair bit, which, of course, is the whole point. This is his M.O. He really does have a mob boss mentality to keep all detection away that went into super overdrive on January 6th for this very reason. I'll say one thing. The key to this puzzle right now, Dan Scavino, his deputy chief of staff who is pretty much near him, gives him the phone often, et cetera. He's been subpoenaed. Right now, it's caught up in satellite litigation. The only thing they can do, and it's certainly harder than having straight phone records is try to find individuals, like McCarthy. We know he was talking to him. Like the Senator. We know he called Mike Lee by mistake and just do it one piece at a time. Harder, and that's what he -- why he did it that way.

BLACKWELL: All right. Harry Litman, thanks for the insight.

LITMAN: Thanks Victor, thanks Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So, Senator Lindsey Graham says the 2024 Republican nomination for president is Donald Trump's for the taking, but a new CNN poll reveals some voters are interested in alternatives. That's next.

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BLACKWELL: If former president Donald Trump decides to run for president in 2024, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham says that the GOP nomination is his for the taking.

But Graham also warns that if Trump continues to focus on the big lie, about the last election being stolen, he will be hurting his chances.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Donald Trump is the most consequential Republican in the Republican Party today. He has a great chance of being president again in 2024. If he'll start comparing what he did as president versus what's going on now and how to fix the mess, we're in. If he looks backward, I think he's hurting his chances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Mark McKinnon is co-host and executive producer of Showtime's "The Circus." And he's a former campaign adviser for President George W. Bush. Mark great to see you. Let me just show you the poll, where we are right now in terms of Republicans, and how they're feeling. So, who should the GOP nominee be in 2024, Republican voters and leaners were asked? 50 percent say Donald Trump. 49 percent say someone else, but if he were to run, wouldn't they just fall right in line?

MARK MCKINNON, COHOST AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, SHOWTIMES "THE CIRCUS": Well, if he's the nominee, a lot of them will, but probably not enough to be elected president. That's why he wasn't elected in 2020. There lies the conundrum for the Republican Party. You can't win a primary fight without Donald Trump, and Donald Trump will win any primary fight, but he can't win a general election. And to Lindsey Graham's point, he's not going to quit looking in the rear-view mirror because he's obsessed with the notion there was fraud in the election which we know of course there wasn't. There was no systemic fraud and barely any actual cases of fraud in the few cases that there are, they actually voted for Donald Trump.

[15:45:00]

So, the whole foundation of his re-election for 2024 would be built on the big lie which he can't give up.

[15:45:37] START HERE

BLACKWELL: Well, let's talk about the influence on 2022. Because we've heard from Senator Rick Scott, whose job it is to get more Republicans elected to the Senate, that the issues will be crime, inflation, the cost of gas, not the 2020 election.

But, of course, former President Trump wants to drag the party there. Is this different than what we watched for the last six years that Trump will lead the base and that will be the major issue that he'll run on?

MCKINNON: Well, I think exhibit A is the Virginia governor's race where Glenn Youngkin ran on those issues that you just talked about but kept Trump at arm's length and won going away in a typically Democratic state. So that's the model. That's the model of how Republicans can be successful.

The question is -- and I think it probably will be in 2022. There's a lot of things on voters' minds, including inflation and COVID. But that resurgence is diminishing now. Maybe will be helpful in 2024. But it's difficult for Democrats in 2022. Historically and just because of the landscape. But Trump only makes it more difficult for Republicans, not better.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but Mark, I mean let's just remember that there are all these Trump acolytes who are perpetrators of the big lie and/or believers in the big lie who are right now being installed in important election oversight positions. Some of them have been already installed. Some of them are running for secretaries of state and maybe that will change what happens in 2024, if he doesn't win. Maybe they will say he did.

MCKINNON: Well, of course, that's the great flair that's a distress signal to so many people across the country that Republicans try to, with Trump leading the charge, try to overturn a free and fair election. His own Attorney General and his own election chief said was free and fair. And because they were unsuccessful, they're trying to rig it in other states now through secretaries of state and other laws that they're putting in place where they can overturn local election officials.

And that's a huge warning sign for anybody. And should be of great concern. And that's of course why Democrats have been trying to pass some of these federal voter rights legislation which looks unlikely to pass. So, yes, it's a big problem and, you know, once again, Donald Trump is saying that the election is rigged before the election and if he loses, he'll say it was rigged and this time he'll use the mechanics, the Republicans that have been put place to actually execute.

CAMEROTA: Yes, we shall see, Mark McKinnon, thank you very much. Great to see you.

MARK MCKINNON: You too Alisyn, thanks.

CAMEROTA: We have some breaking news right now in the Sarah Palin defamation suit against "The New York Times." the judge overseeing this case says he will dismiss the case ruling because Palin's team did not prove a key element of its case. But the jury is still deliberating.

BLACKWELL: All right, to explain all of this, Brian Stelter is here with an update. So, what -- Harry Litman is here, too. Sorry, Harry.

CAMEROTA: Hi, Harry.

BLACKWELL: So first, tell us what happened here.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right, this is an ongoing trial where the jury is still deliberating. They' re going to continue for at least another hour. They are trying decide whether Sarah Palin was defamed by "The New York Times" several years ago.

Palin says she was smeared, part of a campaign against conservatives. And this is largely, at the end of the day, about what the standard should be for public figures? When you are criticized, when you are wronged by a newspaper or newsroom, if they write something that is totally wrong about you, what's the standard? Can you sue? Can you win?

Right now, the standard is very high. Some conservatives want it to be lower. So, Palin is taking this to court with an eye toward eventually changing the rules of the road for newsrooms.

But right now, in this case the judge has said "The New York Times" wins this round. The judge has said he has looked at all the evidence and even though the jury is still deliberating, he feels Palin did not prove actual malice, thus, this will be dismissed.

However, we had this report from Sonia Moghe in the courtroom saying if the jury comes back and finds "The Times" liable, then the judge will set aside his own ruling -- their ruling and enter his own judgment. If they come back not liable from the jury, the judge will let it stand.

All of this is going to work for the appeals court in the months or years to come. So, what the judge is doing today is setting a record for this first round of deliberations. He wants to hear from the jury. He wants his own views stated, and he's making very clear, he says Palin did not meet the evidentiary standard here. She didn't prove that "The New York Times" newsroom -- sorry not the newsroom, it was the editorial page, it was the opinions section, the judge is saying very clearly "The New York Times" editorial page did not set out to try to hurt her on purpose. They weren't doing this on purpose. That's his ruling. We'll see what the jury says and more importantly we'll see what happens in the appeals process.

CAMEROTA: Harry, just explain to us. Is this an exercise in futility that the jury is still deliberating and the judge has just said I'm going to disregard it if they find something that I don't like?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, though it could matter in the record on appeal. Two things are going on here. And there's that the actual drama between Palin and "The New York Times."

[15:50:00]

First time "New York Times" has been sued for libel in a trial in 18 years, and they said our bad. We messed up. But just as you're saying, there's this higher threshold in the U.S. that everyone has thought was canonical and couldn't be changed which says that you cannot get liability against a newspaper unless you show they knew it was false.

And Judge Rakoff is saying no way. No jury could conclude they knew at the time it was false or they recklessly disregarded. They heard from executive editor who just said our mistake. Our bad.

But the second thing going on. The big thing on appeal. Now when she loses and she will lose no matter what. If the jury comes back for her, he will supersede it. It will go to the Second Circuit and potentially the Supreme Court on whether this high threshold in American law, which everyone thought would never be disturbed, in fact, should be changed.

BLACKWELL: So again, the jury is still deliberating. And for their sake, I hope they don't spend too long doing this because the judge has already made a decision. But is it typical for a judge to rule on a motion like this while the jury is still deliberating? Or would he wait until he's gotten the verdict from them and then speak on it?

LITMAN: The short answer is it is atypical. What he got was, and you always get motions at the close of evidence. And you usually rule on them right away. But he is setting the marker now because it would be somewhat more dislocating for them to go through whole thing and then for him to wrench it away from them. And it also might matter on appeal. Is it weird? And is the jury in some kind of academic exercise? Yes.

CAMEROTA: Brian, do we know yet what the wider implications are for the media?

STELTER: Well, we know that two of the Supreme Court justices currently on this conservative court have signaled an interest or an openness in reviewing this high standard. It's the from "The New York Times" v. Sullivan from 1964. A very high standard. If you're a public figure and somebody writes something about you, even if it is untrue, you have got to prove it's a lie. That's basically the journalism 101 rule. You got to prove that they knew they were lying. They made it up.

That has been the standard in this country for as long as most of us have lived. And yet we know two of the nine justices are interested in revisiting that standard and lowering the bar.

Donald Trump used to talk about this 5 years ago on the campaign trail -- 6 years ago. He used to say we should loosen up the libel laws. That's what this case is about. Loosening up the libel laws.

People dismissed when it when Trump said it 6 years ago. They thought would it never come around. But now figures like Sarah Palin are trying to make it a reality and that's why this is a closely watched case.

BLACKWELL: All right, I was going to say we're going to watch to see where it goes, but we know where this is going, at least for this chapter.

STELTER: For this chapter.

LITMAN: It will be a couple years, couple years until we know.

BLACKWELL: All right. Brian Stelter, Harry Litman, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

All right. The U.S. is closing its embassy in Ukraine's capital as fears of a Russian invasion escalate. We have the latest from Washington, from Kyiv and from Moscow.

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CAMEROTA: OK. Get ready for another big jump in prices at the gas pump. Today U.S. crude oil jumped to $95 a barrel for the first time since 2014 on concerns of a Russia invasion of Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: Now you know, gas prices are already high. It hasn't cost this much to fill up your tank in close to eight years. And adding to the problem, demand is far outpacing supply. The national price for a gallon of regular unleaded is now $3.49 and the prices out on the West Coast, even higher.

American speed skater Erin Jackson has won gold in the 500-meter race. Jackson initially did not make the Olympic team for this event after she slipped during Olympic trials. But her teammate and friend gave her up her own spot so Jackson could compete.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh, the 29-year-old is the first U.S. woman to win gold in the 500-meter race since 1994. She's first black woman to win an individual medal in speed skating. She told reporters she cried immediately after she won and just feels happy when she's skating.

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ERIN JACKSON, WINNER OF WOMEN'S 500M SPEEDSKATING GOLD: I love skating. I've been skating for as long as I can remember. Like start out on roller skates and then inline skates. And I don't know, I just feel, I just feel happy when I'm skating and I love going fast. And then especially with ice skating now. It's a new challenge that I'm really enjoying. And hopefully someday I can feel as comfortable on the ice as do I on my first love of roller skates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: It's fantastic.

Well, love might not be in the air this Valentine's Day. A recent Monmouth poll found that only 55 percent of Americans in relationships said that they usually receive a card from their significant other to celebrate the holiday.

CAMEROTA: The poll also showed that most couples do not want an expensive gift today. 37 percent say they would prefer to stay home with their partner versus 25 percent who want to go out to dinner. 17 percent would be happy with a simple gift like candy or flowers, only 4 percent want an expensive gift like jewelry. OK, Victor, are you observant of Valentine's Day?

BLACKWELL: I'm not in a relationship so I don't know if I fall in here.

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But yes, I have got on my right flowers, and my heart tie today. So yes, I'm observant on Valentine's Day.

What about you? Where do fall in there?

CAMEROTA: Oh, I'm a big observer of Valentine's Day. And I already got from my husband this morning a box of chocolates and flowers.

BLACKWELL: Oh, that's nice.

CAMEROTA: Which is great. And I also gave him chocolate and we gave the kids chocolate. So, we like all that.

BLACKWELL: Everybody gets chocolate.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.