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More Russian Troops Seen Near Ukraine's Border; NATO Leaders Meet in Brussels; Ukrainians Maintains a Mood of Calm; Russia-Ukraine Tensions, U.S. Troops Arriving Near Poland's Border with Ukraine; Financed Force Labor Allegations; China Has Repeatedly Denies Claims Of Human Rights Abuses In Xinjiang. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired February 17, 2022 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[03:00:00]

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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes coming to you live from Ukraine where Russia is said to be amassing thousands more troops along the Ukrainian/Russia border.

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Rosemary Church in Atlanta following the Russian ice skater doping controversy overshadowing the Beijing winter Olympics.

UNKNOWN: Live from CNN center, this is CNN Newsroom with Rosemary Church.

HOLMES: NATO and Ukraine throwing cold water on Russia's claims that it is wrapping up some military exercises and pulling back troops from near Ukraine's border. A senior U.S. official says talk of diplomacy from Vladimir Putin is just a guise, and Russia has actually added about 7,000 troops to the region in recent days.

Now U.S. State Department claims Russian forces are moving into fighting positions. And the British defense minister says, he has seen no evidence of a Russian troop withdrawal.

Meanwhile, new satellite images show Russia adding those forces to several regions close to Ukraine, these pictures show a newly constructed pontoon bridge in southern Belarus just six kilometers from the border with Ukraine.

Meanwhile, NATO leaders met Wednesday in Brussels, the secretary general suggesting the alliance could further strengthen its eastern flanks to protect its allies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: There are signs from Moscow that diplomacy should continue, but so far, we do not see any sign of de-escalation on the ground. No withdrawals of troops or equipment. This may, of course change. However, what we see today is that Russia maintains a massive invasion force ready to attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES (on camera): Now, CNN has the story covered with correspondents, position all around the globe. We'll hear from Nick Paton Walsh this hour on the U.S. troop deployments to Poland. Melissa Bell is standing by live in Brussels for us, where NATO leaders are meeting for a second day.

But let's begin with Sam Kiley in Kharkiv in Ukraine where the locals don't seem all that concerned about a Russian invasion.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The chorus of Kharkiv opera house singing in defiance of this.

Russia amassing what the U.S. says are 150,000 troops on three sides of Ukraine's border. In Kharkiv, 25 miles from the frontier, a day of national unity is quickly marked. And a dire warning from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: An invasion remains distinctly possible.

KILEY: Here, though, a message of calm.

Do you expect an invasion?

"No, we don't expect it," he says. "I think we should be ready for anything, but I'm also sure everything is going to be fine. If the Russians did attack, they would have a short run to Kharkiv."

We're driving north towards the border with Russia, which is now about 15 or 20 minutes away. About half an hour beyond that is the city of Belgorod. Now around Belgorod, according to Russian reports, there is the first guards tank army. On paper, they're capable of mustering 50,000 or so infantry, 600 to 800 tanks. They have Iskander surface to surface missiles.

So, there isn't a single sign on this road north of Kharkiv, a city of 1.5 million people of any kind of Ukrainian military activity.

Just trucks waiting for routine crossing into Russia. And business as usual at the border crossing here. Russia is on the other side of that fence. The locals here, relaxed.

Ludmila (Ph) says, "how is it that we're forced to quarrel with our brothers? I just can't comprehend it. On the contrary, we should not have borders at all."

"There is no will to fight with Russia, and we don't see the will of the Russians to fight with us. There are no armed forces, not even a hint, says Alexander (Ph)."

In case Russia does send tanks into this vast landscape, Ukrainians insist that they recall the words of their national anthem.

[03:05:05] "Our enemies will die, as the dew does in the sunshine. And we,

brothers will live happily in our land."

Sam Kiley, CNN, Kharkiv.

HOLMES: Now CNN's Melissa Bell is live for us this hour in Brussels, Belgium, that's where NATO leaders are meeting again for a second say. So, Melissa, the NATO summit continues. Ukraine is joining in remotely. What can we expect?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Ukraine and also Georgia, two potential future members of NATO, they hope. Oleksiy Reznikov, the Ukrainian defense minister will be meeting remotely with the 30 defense ministers of NATO, just gathering even as I speak at NATO headquarters for that second day of meeting.

After the first day, Michael, that was really all about showing not just its unity, but what it believes will be a newfound sense of strength since what we heard from Jens Stoltenberg yesterday was that whatever happened in or around Ukraine going forward, what was certain is that the actions were already taken by Russia had really galvanized NATO and convinced it that it needed to further shore up the defense of its eastern flank.

We know that there are these battle groups to be sent to parts of NATO that they have not been sent to before. One of the first to be created will be in Romania and led by the French. So that real message of unity and strength in the face of what Moscow has been doing these last few weeks in terms of that buildup. The military buildup around Ukraine. That meeting then to continue today.

We will also have here in Brussels today, Michael, just behind me in the European buildings in the council buildings, a meeting of European leaders. Now, it had been long planned, they had been due to be holding an Africa summit here in Brussels today. What they've added to their agenda is a meeting on Ukraine.

We don't expect any formal declarations, there will be no press conferences as far as we anticipate from here. But it was added in order that they could speak once again about the very latest assessments and look at the sanctions package. Because that's something they've been working on behind the scenes for some time.

Again, trying to sow European unity and European strength in the face of what many fear could yet be a Russian incursion into Ukraine. That sanctions package now understood to be ready, it will be presented more formally to European leaders. Although we hear from European sources that they believe that everyone is on board, even those countries most likely to be affected by any tough sanctions against Moscow, Michael.

HOLMES: All right, great wrap up of events there in Brussels. Melissa Bell, thanks to you.

Now Taras Berezovets is a Ukrainian political analyst, he joins me now live from Kyiv. And good to see you again. So, I wanted to ask you about this. Russia is saying troops have

pulled back. The U.S. and others say, in fact more troops are moving to forward positions, fighting positions. Ambiguity about what comes next has been central to Vladimir Putin's strategy in this crisis. How is that playing out and what does he achieve with it?

TARAS BEREZOVETS, UKRAINIAN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning, Michael. Thanks for having me again. I think first of all, we need to mention that we see now two parallel realities. One reality is created by Russian propaganda, Russian TV that we saw Russian troops withdrawing yesterday from occupied Crimea. And the second reality from satellites where we see definitely Russian troops moving closer to Ukrainian border.

And as we know Russia recently moved 7,000 additional military personnel closer to Ukrainian borders. And like you mentioned before, we see a very close that Russians -- that Belarusian brothers in arms place, a pontoon bridge just four and a half miles away from the Ukrainian border. And the reason for that is absolutely unclear because on this particular area, there are no military drills conducted by Russian and Belarusians.

I would say, Michael, that Mr. Putin still is KGB guy. He prefers special operations over military actions. Which effectively means that he is now conducting these operations of intimidation against Ukraine and the west still. And I would say that generally, the scope of full- scale invasion is declining. Meanwhile, as a risk of some sort of conflict in Donbas is arising unfortunately.

HOLMES: I was actually just about to ask you about that. The Russian parliament passing that motion calling on Mr. Putin to recognize -- to recognize the breakaway regions that they're in eastern Ukraine as independent states in the Donbas. The messaging from the government, though, says that's not likely to be signed off on by the president because it would contradict the Minsk agreements. Is that a hardening sign or do you not buy it?

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BEREZOVETS: Well, I do not buy it at all because what Mr. Putin is trying to tell us, well, he says, well, you have normal parliament in Europe. You have normal parliament in Ukraine or in the United States. Why, me, Vladimir Putin, president of Russia is not having very much the same situation?

But the problem with so-called Russian democracy or controlled democracy like they call it, is that there's no independent parliament at all. And if we see any signals that the state Duma is going to recognize independence, independence of so-called Donetsk or Luhansk People Republics, like they already did by the way with parts of Georgia in occupied territories, South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Normal people or experts would say this is not idea of Vladimir Putin. This looks like idea of Russian M.P.s which is completely nonsense. Because what happens here? Vladimir Putin is using his M.P.s from Yidin, Russia, united Russia, or even communist party is trying to persuade us that this is -- that's not his idea. And he is not going to respond it. He's not going to recognize the independence of these territories. But this is just a tricky game he's playing with us, that's all.

HOLMES: Yes. There was a Ukrainian Intel report this week that said, quote, "Russia focuses on destabilizing Ukraine's internal situation, including the use of the economy, energy, as well as cyberattacks." We've already one of those.

If we can destabilize Ukraine as what Mr. Putin wants, is he succeeding?

BEREZOVETS: Well, absolutely. Absolutely. I think this is one of his primary goals actually to have this economy crisis in Ukraine. And we're already losing money every day with our seaports effectively blocked by Ukrainian -- Ukrainian -- sorry, by Russian navy. With the cyberattacks against Ukrainian banking systems.

So, Ukrainian economy is very pessimistic actually about the outcomes of these attacks. And they say Ukraine has maximum two, maybe three months again, also to have enough time not to go into an economic crisis. And the problem is that if Vladimir Putin continues to build up on the Ukrainian borders for the next couple of months, Ukrainian economy will be definitely in crisis.

HOLMES: Yes. Yes. Always great analysis from you, Taras. Taras Berezovets there in Kyiv, thank you so much.

BEREZOVETS: Thank you.

CHURCH: Day 13 of the Beijing Winter Olympics has been a day of ups and downs. Canada's women's ice hockey team is celebrating after beating team USA to win the gold medal with a final score of three to two. The two teams have won every Olympic gold medal for the sport.

Meantime, skier Mikaela Shiffrin crashed out of the alpine combined slalom event. And the U.S. Olympian has had a rough start, crashing out of her first two events.

And in just a few hours, Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva will compete in the women's free skate. She is currently at the center of a doping scandal that sparked tensions in the world of sports.

And CNN's Steven Jiang is in Beijing for more on the Russian doping scandal, he joins us now live. Good to see you, Steven. So, if Valieva wins, it will be a hollow victory and a slap in the face for all clean athletes. What's been said about how Russia should be punished for doping and cheating at these games.

STEVEN JIANG, CNN BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF: Rosemary, the thing is, even though she's expected to win, she's not really halfway towards another gold medal because no gold medal will be awarded. Now according to the IOC, instead, there will be an asterisk appearing next to her results because of the ongoing investigations. And no medal ceremonies for any events that she takes part in before the conclusion of the investigation. So, the whole saga is really affecting not just Valieva and the

Russians, but also other athletes who have won, or will potentially win alongside her. Now Thomas Bach, but IOC president has been meeting skaters from other countries, including from team USA, presumable to reassure them where the IOS stands, and also trying to find a way to recognize their achievements as clean athletes.

Now all of this also shining a spotlight on the minimum age for skaters to compete at these Olympic Games. Right now, it's 15, which is why Valieva is there. There have been suggestions to raise to 17 or 18.

[03:15:02]

But as many have also pointed out, the issue here is not the age of the young athletes, but the adults around them. They say as long as there are corrupt adults surrounding them flouting rules and gain and fair advantage, then the problem is not going to be resolved.

Many have also pointed out the culprit here is IOC has been for too long giving the Russians a pass, even though the Russians have been proven to have a track record of systemic doping.

Here is what our sports analyst Christine Brennan has just said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: They've been stealing medals, in some cases, from clean athletes. And it continues. And then they kick the can down the road. What I would do, is you have to basically say to Russia, you cannot appear, no athletes at the Paris Summer Olympics in 2024. No athletes from Russia at the Milan Winter Olympics in 2026, and maybe even go to L.A. in 2028.

It should be so severe, because what they have done here is basically blow up the Olympic Games.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIANG (on camera): Very strong worlds from Christine there, but for now the Olympic Games here in Beijing continue on as all eyes are set to see Valieva skate onto the ice Thursday night. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right, Steven Jiang, many thanks, joining us live from Beijing.

In Brazil, at least 94 people are dead after floods and landslides ravaged a city north of Rio de Janeiro. Rescuers are still looking for survivors in the city of Petropolis where heavy rains triggered floodwaters and landslides Tuesday.

As Shasta Darlington reports, some video shows city streets are practically turning into rivers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A terrifying scene as rushing water carries a car down an embankment. Heavy rain drenched the city of Petropolis, a mountainous region of Brazil's Rio de Janeiro state, causing deadly flooding and landslides. Emergency crews tossed debris out of a giant hole, racing to find anyone left alive under the muddy mess.

Dozens are dead, including several children. The Rio de Janeiro fire and civil defense department says it's unclear how many people are still missing. Rio's governor visited the area to assess the damage.

GOV. CLAUDIO CASTRO, RIO DE JANEIRO (through translator): I think that it's not time yet to discuss numbers. Our work now is to try to find survivors in this horror scene, to clean and to rescue any bodies that are here.

DARLINGTON: A rescuer carries a dog to safety. And residents look on at what's left of their neighborhood. More than 1,500 families have been displaced as the property destruction is enormous. The city has declared a state of public calamity. One shopkeeper says he lost everything in a matter of minutes.

HENRIQUE PEREIRA, SHOPKEEPER (through translator): It arrived by surprise. It started flooding gradually. The wall here in front was taking everything. The water pressure was taking everything. Everybody on the street had 100 percent damage, it was very difficult. Now, to start over.

DARLINGTON: Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro who is on a trip to Russia, tweeted that he has asked for immediate assistance to be sent to the victims. Rio's civil defense says that Petropolis had more rain in one afternoon than the historical average for all of February. Officials are urging residents to relocate to safe areas and shelters until the debris can be cleared away.

Shasta Darlington, CNN, Sao Paulo.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: And coming up, South Korea is seeing COVID cases surge, and health officials warn the numbers will continue to rise. We're live in Seoul just ahead.

And the leading development banks investments are under scrutiny. Coming up, a new report finds funding to companies that allegedly lose forced labor in China's Xinjiang region.

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CHURCH (on camera): More European countries will soon be easing COVID restrictions but officials caution the pandemic has not been overcome yet. Austria says it will begin lifting some measures starting this Saturday. But the majority will be lifted on March 5th when there will be no limits on social gatherings, access to public locations, and no curfew.

Germany, meantime, plans to end some COVID restrictions by March 28th. That includes allowing people from different households to gather if they are fully vaccinated or have recently recovered from COVID.

In the past week, much of Europe has seen COVID cases decline or hold steady compared to the previous week. In South Korea, the Omicron variant is fueling a record surge in COVID cases. The country reported more than 90,000 daily infections for a second straight day, and health officials warn that number could continue to climb.

CNN's Paula Hancocks joins me now from Seoul with more on all of this. Good to see you, Paula. So, what is the latest on the surge in cases and what impact, if any, is this having on hospitalizations there?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rosemary, the South Korean government and health officials are really changing their tacked when it comes to dealing with the Omicron variant. That is the reason we're seeing such a significant increase in numbers, as you say, over 93,000 daily cases for yesterday.

And officials say we could see something between 130 to 170,000 per day by the end of the month. But crucially, we are not seeing a significant rise in the number of deaths, or also in the number of serious hospitalizations and critical cases. That's what officials will be looking at closely. It is rising but at a slower pace. Although, often, there is a lagging factor with that.

So, what we're seeing from officials is that they're changing their policy. They did have a strict contract -- contact tracing policy here where every single person that tested positive, they would contact trace them, find out where they have been, who they had been with, and then try and stem the flow that way.

You can't do that with more than 90,000 cases per day. So, what they are doing now is they're trying to focus on the elderly, and they're trying to focus on the vulnerable. So, if you test positive in this country, you no longer have to go to a facility, for example. If you're asymptomatic or have nose -- mild symptoms, you can stay at home. It's the serious cases that officials are focusing on at this point.

And also, we have Korean schools starting their new term in about two weeks. The focus of who controls who is allowed to stay in school, who has in-person learning and who goes home, is being shifted from the government to schools as well. So, they will make that decision on a local basis. So more of a trust system being put in place.

Free home kits are being sent to Korean schools as well. They are not mandatory at this point for students to take but they are strongly recommended. So, this is really a shift that we are seeing in the government. And then Friday health officials and the government is meeting, and they could well ease some of the restrictions we have seen.

At the same time as these daily numbers being significantly higher. We heard from the prime minister earlier this week alluding to that fact, saying that they're really trying to focus on the economy now and minimizing the impact on the economy. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right, Paula Hancocks, many thanks, bringing us up to date on that situation.

Well, while Russian troop numbers swell along Ukraine's borders, American forces are setting up camp in neighboring Poland, their mission and movements just ahead.

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HOLMES (on camera): Welcome back, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes coming to you live from Lviv in Ukraine.

And just in, an announcement from the Russian defense ministry which says its western and southern military units have completed their exercises, and are returning to their bases. The Kremlin made these claims before that it is moving forces away from Ukraine, of course, and the U.S. has dismissed them.

A senior Biden administration officials said on Wednesday that Russia has actually ramped up its presence by as many as 7,000 troops. That official says that while Moscow claims to desire a diplomatic solution, its latest moves, quote, "indicate otherwise."

Now, one of those moves involves this bridge built in Belarus during joint exercises between Russian and Belarusian forces. It's located very close to the Ukrainian border, significant of course, it could help Russian convoys crossover more quickly.

But the latest Ukrainian intelligence report says that the overall Russian buildup is just not large enough to pull off a full-scale invasion. The U.S. and other western nations disagree.

Meanwhile, on the other side of Ukraine, in Poland, we are seeing significant numbers of American troops arriving.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has that story.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: They don't really want you to see this, but it's hard to hide. These are U.S. troops landing near the Polish border with Ukraine. High-end Blackhawks C-17 cargo planes, dozens in the past days. Media haven't been given official access, but they are pretty hard to miss.

Trucks, pilots, signs these 87 Airborne from Fort Bragg are not here, an hours' drive from Ukraine just overnight. They even came this day with a Cessna light aircraft which seems to be innocently carrying top brass who get onto a nearby helicopter.

Moscow may point to these scenes as NATO massing troops on Ukraine's border, but these are here with the approval of Poland, a NATO member.

In a standoff that's all about messaging, these American troops are about ensuring U.S. allies feel their presence.

The unit we saw decamped to a nearby conference center, they are here just in case to help stranded Americans in Ukraine if the need arises. These sort of movements in NATO wargames and drills have been practiced for years.

They don't really want us to see this, the larger base where they are.

Are the Americans over here?

UNKNOWN: This is their main base, yes.

UNKNOWN: We can't talk about this.

[03:30:01]

WALSH: I understand. Can we talk to somebody about this, or?

UNKNOWN: No.

WALSH: They walked right by us. Come on. Don't be afraid. It's all right.

In the size of the operation, these are a lot of tense over a wide area, is both what you might expect to support that many soldiers, but also something that is almost definitely not for show, and portrays a lot of readiness, even if you hope they all stay bored and cold on the canvas in the weeks ahead.

The border with Ukraine, an hour away, is normally busy. But Sasha is on his way back in, as his visa has run out.

Ukraine is my country, I have to stay, he says. Yes, in the army, if needs be, but no running away. At another crossing, Ukrainians returning are pretty blunt. He won't get as far as Kyiv, we won't let him, one says.

We will raise a resistance, fight him in the woods. It will be like Stalin, his own people will kill him. Bravado running hot, far, far away from a front line that is still mostly cold.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, (Inaudible), Poland.

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HOLMES: Now the cyberattack that temporarily blocked access to a number of important Ukrainian websites on Tuesday, well, it was the largest ever to hit Ukraine. That's according to a government minister who says it is also too soon to know exactly who was responsible and that's important to note.

The so-called DDOS, or Distributed Denial Of Service attack bombarded the websites of Ukrainian defense agencies, and also banks with phony traffic. A top U.S. State Department officials says the Kremlin is the likely culprit. All right, I'll be back at the top of the hour with more from Libya.

I'll apologize -- apologies for the wind, buffeting us here and the rain earlier. Rosemary Church is going to have more news from around the world after a short break. Do stay with us.

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ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): Welcome back everyone. Well, for decades, the International Finance Corporation proclaimed its success in funding companies that help end poverty in developing nations. But disturbing findings in a new report allege hundreds of millions of dollars went to companies using forced labor in China's Xinjiang region.

Ivan Watson has details.

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IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A new report accuses an arm of the world bank of pumping hundreds of millions of dollars in to Chinese companies that the report accuses of participating in a campaign of repression against Uyghurs in China's Xinjiang region.

Now this comes as the U.S. has been leading a diplomatic boycott of the Beijing Winter Olympics after accusing the Chinese government of genocidal policies in Xinjiang of the mass roundup and internment of up to 2 million ethnic Uyghurs and members of other ethnic minority.

[03:35:15]

The report, titled financing genocide, from the Helena Kennedy Centre for International Justice. It says that the International Finance Corporation is arm of the World Bank which is aimed at poverty alleviation, put $486 million into four Chinese companies at the height of the government campaign against Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

It accuses these companies of participating in and benefiting from forced labor programs, from compulsory land appropriation programs. And publishes photos of what it says are facilities, factories owned by some of these companies in close proximity to suspected internment camps over the years, as those internment camps then grew.

The report goes on to say that there does not appear to have been adequate due diligence in monitoring of the investments, to make sure that they met the IFC's standards. And says that there was only one monitoring group that went out in 2019 to Xinjiang. Reportedly staying on the ground just 24 hours there, and being detained by police no less than three times during that short visit.

Now, CNN has reached out for comment. It has independently verified that money did in fact go from the IOC to these four Chinese companies and they did use some of that money for their Xinjiang operations. The companies did not respond.

The Chinese foreign ministry issued a statement saying China has repeatedly emphasized that the so-called issues of forced labor and repression against ethnic minorities are huge lies concocted by anti- China forces in the U.S. and the West. They are baseless, and it goes on to say that attempts to attack and smear China are bound to fail.

The IFC did not respond to specific questions from CNN. It did say, quote, we do not tolerate discrimination or forced labor under any circumstances, and added that it would work to verify and investigate serious allegations brought to their attention.

I might add that I have interviewed people, Uyghurs who say they have been put in internment camps, and after months of terrible treatment, been released provided that they work in factories for almost no money, under threat of being sent back into detention, if they complain, or refused to work in these jobs.

Ivan Watson, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: Laura Murphy is a professor of human rights and contemporary slavery at the Helena Kennedy Center for International Justice, at Sheffield Hallam University. And she is one of the authors of the report, and joins me now from New Orleans. Thank you so much for talking with us.

LAURA MURPHY, PROFESSOR, HELENA KENNEDY CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE, SHEFFIELD HALLAM UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me.

CHURCH: Now your report uncovered some disturbing findings, revealing that millions of dollars have been going to companies that maybe using forced labor in Xinjiang China. What exactly did you find?

MURPHY: Well, we looked into the World Bank's Development Finance Arm called the International Finance Corporation. And we wanted to look to see whether there were any investments in Xinjiang, and indeed there were several companies that the IFC had spent hundreds of millions of dollars investing in, in the last few years.

Those companies, each of the four, we found where using compulsory forced labor programs, the state sponsors. China's government has put millions of Uyghurs into these forced labor programs, and these four companies were in fact participating in those programs.

They were also, you know, engaging in manufacturing that was extraordinarily polluting. They were discriminating against workers based on their ethnicity. They were breaking many of the very standards that the IOC set in place to monitor companies that they give loans to.

CHURCH: So, how is it possible that this funding wasn't investigated to ensure that it went to companies that helped end poverty, not perpetuate forced labor like this?

MURPHY: Well, this is one of the interesting situations that's going on right now in China, and that is that the Chinese government has claimed that the programs, the international community understands forced labor are actually helping Uyghur people.

And so they say, well, these folks are poor, and therefor it's good that we are sending them off to work, even if that means they have to leave behind their families, their farms, their children, their elders. Even if they say no at first, we believe we know better, and they need to go out and work in these factories. And so, all of this is framed by the Chinese government as development. And the IFC kind of bought that line, it seems.

[03:40:13]

CHURCH: So do you think some of these companies were just blinded to what was actually going on? Or do you think that they did know exactly what was happening here?

MURPHY: I think a lot of the companies would say that they believe that this is better for the Uyghurs, but this is a paternalistic, condescending, racist position to take, right? That, you know, a lot of people in China believe that the Uyghurs are sort of, you know, somehow, you know, inherently engaged in bad behaviors, or needing the health, the education of the majority of the people there.

And so, I think a lot of companies engage in these things thinking that they're helping people, believing that they are helping people. But any company that's operating, any person is working for any company there has seen Uyghur people disappearing. Has seen their coworkers, you know, not being able to come to work because they put into internment camps.

And so they know the consequences of refusing to be engaged, you know, in a state sponsor program. It's that you can be put into an internment camp. And so I think that people know deep down with the consequences are, but there is a sense there that minority citizens are benefiting from these programs, even though that we all know that they are regressive.

CHURCH: And while this is happening at forced labor camps in China, of course, Beijing is hosting the Winter Olympics, and only a few countries have objected by being part of the U.S. led diplomatic boycott. So, what should the international community be doing about China's role in these forced labor camps? Because when you look at it, a lot of countries don't seem to care, do they?

MURPHY: Well, increasingly, governments are taking a stand and saying that what's happening in the region is genocide, or that they are standing up against the human rights abuses there. And what's interesting is that the IFC, you could pressure point for this. Because, international governments have stakes.

They put their money into our taxpayer dollars and pounds into the money that goes into the IFC. And so this is a place where we can see governments around the world putting pressure on the IFC to do something about what's going on.

CHURCH: What hope do you have that your report will shine a spotlight on this issue and perhaps see some progress achieved? MURPHY: I think there is a fairly good chance that the IFC will take

this quite seriously. They do have performance standards that are integral part of their, sort of, you know, governance process for their grants. And so I think that they will take the findings that we brought to bear seriously, and they have in the past made decisions based on human rights. So we are very optimistic that they will read this and really understand what we're talking about and take it seriously.

CHURCH: Professor Laura Murphy, thank you so much for talking with us.

MURPHY: Thank you.

CHURCH: And I'm Rosemary Church, thanks so much for your company, enjoy the rest of your day. "WorldSport" is next with Patrick Snell.

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