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Blinken: Russian Playbook For Invasion Of Ukraine Moving Forward; Russia Extends Military Drills In Belarus; Queen Elizabeth Tests Positive For COVID-19, Symptoms Mild; Longtime Epstein Associate Jean-Luc Brunel Found Dead In Prison Cell; Closing Arguments Set For Monday In Case Against Arbery's Killers; Beijing Games End With Russian Skating Gold Medal In Question. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired February 20, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:59:49]

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: And it is ultimately, you know, up to the Ukrainian people and their leadership to keep trying to build that strong democratic, independent Ukraine that is fighting corruption and building an economy. It can be done.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Secretary Rice, pleasure to have you on.

RICE: Thank you. Great to be with you.

ZAKARIA: Thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. I will see you next week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Still the tanks are actually rolling and the planes are flying. We will use every opportunity and every minute we have to see if diplomacy can still dissuade President Putin from carrying this forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Happening right now in the NEWSROOM, the U.S. Secretary of State says Russia's playbook for invasion is moving forward. But there's still a chance to avert a war.

The NEWSROOM starts right now.

Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. And we begin with this breaking news on the crisis on the border with Ukraine.

President Biden today calling in his national security team for a meeting in the Situation Room. A U.S. official now telling CNN that nearly 75 percent of Russian conventional forces are now deployed within striking distance of Ukraine.

The U.S. also estimates that Russia has around 500 fighter and fighter bomber aircraft within range of Ukraine. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken arriving at the White House a short time ago as you're about to see.

Earlier Blinken said he is not giving up all hope for diplomacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLINKEN: While we believe President Putin has made the decision that the die is cast, until that die actually settles and until the tanks are actually moving, the planes are actually flying, the bombs are actually dropping, we're going to do everything we can with diplomacy and with deterrence and dissuasion to get President Putin to reverse the decision that we believe he's made. And part of that is making very clear what he risks in terms of sanctions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Arlette Saenz is at the White House. Nic Robertson in Moscow.

Arlette, to you first, what do we know about today's national security meeting?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Fred, President Biden convened a rare Sunday meeting of his National Security Council in the Situation Room as the U.S. continues to plot its next steps as Russia and Ukraine appear to be on the brink of war.

We saw several top cabinet officials arriving here at the White House, including Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Milley, as well as national security adviser Jake Sullivan. Vice President Harris was also expected to join via secure video lines as she is currently traveling back from Munich.

Now, this all comes as several of those officials had spent part of the weekend over in Europe meeting with allies as this crisis between Russia and Ukraine continues to brew. Now Secretary of State Antony Blinken earlier today told our colleague Dana Bash that that Russian playbook for a possible invasion still appears to be moving forward as the U.S. is assessing what they are seeing on the ground as well as intelligence that they are picking up as well.

But this all comes as the U.S. has really been spending some time working with allies in recent days and weeks to craft a possible sanctions package to implement if Russia moves forward with an invasion. That sanction package has come under a bit of scrutiny over the course of the weekend.

Ukrainian President Zelensky said he wants to see those sanctions unveiled before an invasion. But Secretary of State Antony Blinken defended the decision to wait as he spoke to our colleague Dana Bash. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLINKEN: The purpose of the sanctions in the first instance is to try to deter Russia from going to war. As soon as you trigger them, that deterrent is gone. And until the last minute, as long as we can try to bring a deterrent effect to this, we're going to try to do that.

As to laying out in detail what the sanctions will be, two things. First, Russia generally has a pretty good idea of what we're going to do, but we don't want to lay out the specifics in advance because that would allow Russia to try to plan against them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now as the U.S. continues to warn that a Russian invasion of Ukraine could happen in the coming days, they are still stressing that diplomacy is an option. Blinken talked about how President Biden would be willing to speak with President Putin at any time and any format if it would help avert a war.

Now Blinken is set to meet with his counterpart, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, on Thursday. But that meeting will only take place if Russia does not invade. So that window for diplomacy does appear to be narrowing, but the White House is holding out some hope that they can reach some type of diplomatic solution, but is also preparing all measures in the event that Russia does invade Ukraine, Fred.

[14:04:52]

WHITFIELD: And Nic in Moscow, the Kremlin has decided to extend its military exercises in Belarus. So how significant is that?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It is significant because it signals they're not going to take their forces away. Indeed on Friday, President Putin said he wasn't going to de-escalate until President Zelensky and Ukraine talked to the pro-Russian separatist leaders in the east of Ukraine in the Donbas Region.

Today people have continued -- Civilians have continued to flow out of that Donbas Region into Russia. The area of Russia they're going into, the local governor has declared a state of emergency.

Civilians coming out saying that they were scared that some of them had left in the middle of the night when they're hearing explosions. The local separatist leaders are blaming that on Ukrainian forces and Russian media is using that to propagate a message that it's the Ukrainian forces that are forcing these civilians to flee their homes.

That, of course, out of that playbook that the White House has been talking about that Russia could foment a plan to go into Ukraine.

The other thing that's been happening is a piece of diplomacy. So let's backtrack to yesterday, Saturday. Munich, Secretary Blinken met there with the French foreign minister. Last night, the French president called President Zelensky in Ukraine. Today the French president called President Putin and then he called President Zelensky in Ukraine again.

We know that the French foreign minister will be having a conversation with the Russian foreign minister by phone tomorrow. Is there something in that diplomatic track that could avert this potential invasion? It's not clear. The public statements that we're getting from the Kremlin right now absolutely speak against that. We understand from the Kremlin that they don't think Zelensky will have the conversations with the separatist leaders that Putin wants.

Putin was talking to Macron again about NATO and NATO wanting -- or allowing Ukraine to join, not going back to his 1997 levels. All the things we've heard before. So that avenue of diplomacy doesn't look particularly open.

And at the same time, the military gap, particularly in that Donbas separatist area, that's growing wider. So it seems even more unlikely that Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, would actually reach out and do what Putin is telling him to do and speak to those separatist leaders.

There are many reasons that he won't do that. But it's not happening, and that appears in Putin's mind potentially to have been a key to de- escalating this.

But at the moment, the military forces really do seem poised. Russia's forces poised right around Ukraine.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nic Robertson, Arlette Saenz, thank you so much. We're going to check back with you momentarily.

For now, let me broaden out this conversation with Steve Hall. He's a CNN national security analyst and former chief of Russia operations for the CIA. Michael Bociurkiw is a senior fellow for the Atlantic Council and former spokesperson for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. And Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, a former commanding general for Europe and the Seventh Army and a CNN military analyst. Good to see all of you, gentlemen.

Steve, to you first. I mean take us inside the Situation Room at the White House today. What is being discussed when you have the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin there. You've got the national security adviser Jake Sullivan, the vice president still traveling back from Munich. And of course, the president there in the Situation Room. What are the discussions?

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think, Fred, what they're probably discussing is they're just making sure that everything is in order, you know. As we approach what appears to be more and more an imminent invasion on the part of Putin over Ukraine.

So they're just making sure that all those -- everything that they've set up is in place, the communications with the allies are working well, and that they are reviewing, you know, ok, what exactly are we going to do and in what order are we going to do it when the invasion comes.

And I think it's worth -- it's really worth sitting back. There's a lot of speculation right now. What will happen? When will it happen? What about this other diplomacy that maybe Macron and the French are involved in. If you just look real carefully and real focusly (ph) at what we know for sure. We know for sure, and I take a little bit of issue with describing these folks in the Donbas region as separatists, these are Russian proxies. They wouldn't be there if it weren't for Russia. So Russia has invaded from the east already.

We already know that they have invaded and indeed taken over, annexed part of Ukraine already. That's the Crimea. They did the very same thing not too many years ago in Georgia. They did an invasion and took the half -- the upper part of that country and then, you know, recognized these sort of fake countries that they decided to make.

So this is all -- this has happened before. There's no need to speculate really, on how they're doing it. And I think that's one of the things that they're discussing, hopefully also in the Situation Room right now.

WHITFIELD: And so Steve, when we heard Nic's reporting about the Ukrainian president not likely to have conversations with the separatists, what are the consequences if he were to do so, and perhaps the perils if he were to have those discussions?

[14:09:59]

HALL: Sure. I mean -- but the question is, where does it end? So, you know, Putin says, well, I'm just going in to Georgia for whatever reason so that I can recognize these two little countries.

Then I'm just annexing Crimea because they're mostly Russians there anyway and they want to be part of Russia.

Let's talk to those folks in the Donbas because you never know what they want and eventually Russia is probably going to try to take them over too or at least start a frozen conflict there.

So if Ukraine agrees to talk to these people in the Donbas, these so- called separatists, these Russian proxies, who knows what's going to be next. Are the Baltic countries going to be asked to renegotiate their former status as former Soviet republics? You just -- where is Putin going to stop? Nowhere until we push back hard.

WHITFIELD: Too risky.

All right. So Michael, listen to what the Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin said in an interview that was recorded on Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You could see a significant amount of combat power move very quickly down to take Kyiv. So in terms of the types of things that could happen. One only need to look at what's on the other side of the Ukrainian border. If he employs that kind of combat power, it will certainly create enormous casualties within a civilian population.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: So Michael, reportedly there is significant combat power that has amassed and immediately the Secretary of Defense is talking about that combat. The target being Kyiv. Do you see that potentially or that Russia is poised to potentially do that?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Good to be with you, Fredricka.

You know, those remarks are chilling. Absolutely chilling. But as I've said many times on air, there's kind of a split screen reality of surreal calm in Kyiv and even here in (INAUDIBLE). I just returned from there.

You know, I think people, most Ukrainians are actually not trying to even listen to the foreign news and go about their business as normal because they have been living under this uncertainty for about eight years.

But, you know, I have to say it, Fredricka. Ukrainians are actually very big on numerology. And they are reminding themselves that when 2008, after the Olympics, Putin invaded Georgia. In 2014, after the Sochi Olympics, he illegally annexed Crimea. And now we're at the end of the Beijing Olympics.

A couple of quick points, if I can. Number one, I respectfully disagree with Secretary Blinken and with my own Canadian government is that I think some of those biting sanctions need to be implemented immediately.

Let's start with, for example, those 2,500 golden visas purchased with dirty money by Russian oligarchs in London.

Secondly, I believe the United States has requested another U.N. Security Council meeting. The Chinese foreign minister just said the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of every country should be safeguarded. Ukraine is no exception.

Why doesn't President Biden or his U.N. Ambassador confront the Chinese and say, do you support the sovereignty of Ukraine? This is important because -- Russia and China as you know, are coming into this very big bromance and if this kind of diplomatic checkmate could be made that could end up with some interesting positive results hopefully.

WHITFIELD: All fascinating points. And it really is interesting. We talk about the coincidence of the facade of the end of the Olympics, how that seems to be a recurring theme.

Can I ask you another follow-up on the whole sanctions? While the Ukrainian president even said in Munich yesterday, he says, why wait for the sanctions, why wait for an invasion before there are sanctions imposed?

What is the hold-up? Why would it seem that the U.S. is, at least from what we've heard from the president, he is determined to only impose or push for sanctions after an invasion. Why not use it as a deterrent now when you have got this kind of build-up and threat?

BOCIURKIW: Right. Yes well, actually, I think there's a bit of fear, a bit of weakness and that's the one thing Putin enjoys exploiting is weakness. So I think they really have to show that they're not bluffing, that they're serious now.

And you know, Fredricka, the sad thing that's happening right now anyway is Ukraine's economy, travel industry, is being totally battered right now. Just over this weekend, Lufthansa Group and its sister airlines have canceled flights to major Ukrainian cities. SAS just pulled out, KLM. So the country is feeling more kind of cut off at the moment.

And I think just a quick note here. You know, if governments can attack (ph) with sanctions, maybe corporations can as well. I don't want to name them. They know who they are. But there are companies doing huge business in Russia, Ukraine, North America. They could act too out of a corporate social responsibility type of mindset to inflict some pain on Russia given what it looks like will be a massive possible invasion.

[14:14:54]

WHITFIELD: And General, I mean, the military arsenal and the build up is significant. But it also seems like this armor of disinformation is, too.

Is there a way in which to measure right now which is making the greatest impact in this conflict right now? This disinformation, misinformation versus the potential of the military build up?

BOCIURKIW: There's a --

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's absolutely --

WHITFIELD: Oh, sorry -- the general.

HERTLING: Actually, there's a formula that the military and the State Department is using on this, Fred. And I'll introduce a term to you called MDM -- misinformation, disinformation and malinformation.

And I think that's been part of the campaign planning all along of both the State Department and the military to try and understand through the intelligence community what kind of intelligence -- and Steve can probably answer this a little bit -- what kind of intelligence are we receiving. How much of it is true, false, what are we following?

And along the way from the very beginning, the secretary of state has been the primary spokesman in terms of saying, here's what's going to happen next.

And so far, all of those things have occurred. If I can back away a little bit, I'd like to address what Michael said. Because I think he made two very important points, one I agree with and one I disagree with. And that is the first one I agree with. Yes, the trend line of the Olympics seems to be true. You know, we're going to be watching the closing ceremonies on our TVs tonight, but it all happened this morning.

And the second piece I'll mention is Tuesday is a very important day for two reasons. First of all, it's Red Army Day. What they call the Veterans of the Fatherland Day. It's a celebration that started in 1918 for the Red Army.

It would seem to be in line with the kind of patriotic information that Putin is passing out on Russian TV to have the military be in full-throated action by Tuesday. That's just a guess on my part.

But it's also a critical day because it's eight years to the day when Ukraine declared their independence during the Maidan (ph) and pushed out their leader in 2014.

So these kind of things are all kind of coming together in terms of a timeline. We're seeing the flow of what I would call a synchronization matrix and another term I'll introduce you to, the military preparation of the battlefield.

That is what's going on in a very asymmetric means when we're talking about what we're seeing every day and what is being reported over the last weeks or so in terms of Russian activity.

WHITFIELD: Michael, you want to follow up?

BOCIURKIW: Sure. I agree with the General. The timing sequence is very important, but you know, the other thing to also point out here is that I mentioned this earlier today on another show is the long arm of Russian special forces of the KGB, of their puppet state, Belarusia (ph) is very, very long here in Ukraine and reaches everywhere.

So if they wanted to perhaps withhold military means but also a great destabilization to neutralize, if you will, opponents or expected opponents, they have the will to do that.

A few months ago, a Belarusian dissident was found hung in a tree outside of Kyiv. It was not a suicide. It was a killing. And a few years ago, a journalist, Ukrainian-Belarusian journalist was murdered in broad daylight in a car bomb. Also the finger pointed at Russia.

So they have the ability to cause great havoc here without even rolling their tanks or soldiers across. And I think that's what makes Ukrainians very nervous.

One more quick point, Fredricka, if I can. The other kind of silent enemy at work here and, believe me, it is a big enemy, is the COVID-19 pandemic. The -- one of the reasons why Kyiv looks so kind of quiet and dead right now is because so many people are at home right now suffering from COVID-19.

And this is one of those battles with which the government here did not handle very well and now it's paying a bit of a price for that. It couldn't have happened at a worse time.

WHITFIELD: Wow. So it's not necessarily a symbol of calm but instead COVID.

BOCIURKIW: Right.

WHITFIELD: And then Steve, I saw you nodding when Michael talked about Russia's long arm. You want to elaborate on your thoughts?

HALL: Yes, this is -- we've been hearing about this a little bit already. The -- as Mark already said, the preparation of the battle space. And they are doing it, you know, through their special services -- their intelligence services. So not only are they doing these assassination attempts which we've seen really across the world and inside of Russia, but also cyber stuff is a big deal.

They've already gone after Ukraine once. They did it again recently. They've come against us and they will again. So this is all, you know, their special services are fully integrated with the political and the military and everything else that goes on to Russia because it all funnels up to one guy. It's Vladimir Putin who makes these decisions.

HERTLING: Fredricka, if I can comment on what Michael said about COVID. It's not just affecting Ukraine either. I mean there are intelligence reports coming out right now that it is really affecting the Russian and the Belarusian army in Belarus.

[14:19:51]

HERTLING: They are -- it's near -- certainly contagious, but it's near crisis because you are talking about military forces that can't mount up and conduct these operations because they are so sick.

We're seeing reports of just a staggering percentage of the Russian military that's being affected in these very close wintry quarters in Belarus as they're attempting to train to conduct these operations.

WHITFIELD: It certainly isn't overtly obvious based on the way Putin seems to be propping up his personnel.

Thank you so much, Steve Hall, Michael Bociurkiw and General Mark Hertling. Appreciate you all.

HERTLING: Sure.

HALL: Thank you.

BOCIURKIW: Take care.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead -- Queen Elizabeth tests positive for COVID. Everything we know about her condition and the people she has been in contact with, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:24:47] WHITFIELD: All right. We're following major news out of the U.K. Buckingham Palace has confirmed that Queen Elizabeth has tested positive for COVID-19. Just a few days before that positive test on Wednesday, the palace publicized these photos of her at an event at Windsor Castle, greeting members of the military.

Let's bring in CNN royal correspondent Max Foster live from Windsor. So Max, what more are we learning about the Queen's symptoms or condition, the timeline?

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's in Windsor Castle behind me. She's receiving medical attention, but they are also playing it down to some extent saying that she has mild symptoms and that she does expect to carry out light duties over the course of the week.

So that suggests that she's well enough to work and they're not too concerned about her. In fact, she did send out a note today to the U.K. Olympic team. So showing there, you know, she's still at her desk doing her work.

But she is receiving medical attention. She's soon to be 96 years old. So the team of doctors are obviously watching her very, very closely and monitoring her. But no massive cause for concern right now but, you know, obviously that age, have to be careful.

WHITFIELD: Absolutely. Ok. Thank you so much, Max Foster. Appreciate that.

All right. Coming up -- a longtime friend of Jeffrey Epstein is found dead in his prison cell. Details straight ahead.

[14:26:10]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:38]

WHITFIELD: All right. Another twist in the ongoing investigations into Jeffrey Epstein's web of sex trafficking. Longtime Epstein associate and French modeling agent Jean-Luc Brunel was found dead in his prison cell this weekend.

CNN's Nada Bashir has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A longtime associate of disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein found dead in a Paris jail cell. Prosecutors say French modeling agent Jean-Luc Brunel was found alone, hanged with bed sheets in his cell at Santo Prison early Saturday morning. The 75-year-old had been held in jail for over a year, facing allegations of rape and human trafficking of underage girls.

Officials would not comment on whether Brunel killed himself and say they are still investigating the official cause of death. His arrest in late 2020 resulted from a probe by French prosecutors into whether Epstein had committed sex crimes in France and had accomplices. Brunel had been accused by several former models of sexual assault and rape, which he denied. He was put under formal investigation last June for rape of a minor over 15, according to French prosecutors.

Brunel always claimed he was innocent and his French lawyers told CNN their client's, quote, decision was not guided by guilt but by a sense of injustice.

Brunel founded the Karin Models Agency in Paris in the 1970s, and later, a U.S. modeling agency with Epstein's help. Epstein was found dead in his prison cell in August 2019 while awaiting trial. A medical examiner ruled his death was suicide by hanging.

Nada Bashir, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: This Presidents' Day weekend, CNN is premiering a new original series focused on the life and presidency of Lyndon Baines Johnson. See how his presidency was as complicated as the times he served, when "LBJ: TRIUMPH AND TRAGEDY" premieres tonight at 9:00, right here on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: LBJ was intensely aware that he came into the office under the cloak of tragedy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It drove him to try to do things no one else had ever achieved.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said to his aides, what the hell is the presidency for? If you are not going to do something bold, why be here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Lyndon Johnson would be seen today as one of our greatest presidents because of all that he did, but he made one bad mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vietnam really pulled him apart. He couldn't make a win out of this no matter how hard he tried.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: LBJ said, I wish they knew that I want peace as much as they do.

LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT: It's important to reflect and look back and see what has been done because there is no better way to judge the future than by the past.

ANNOUNCER: "LBJ: TRIUMPH AND TRAGEDY" premieres tonight at 9:00 on CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:38:25]

WHITFIELD: All right. Closing arguments are scheduled to begin tomorrow in the federal hate crimes trial of the three men convicted of killing Ahmaud Arbery. Both sides rested their cases Friday after four days of testimony from 20 witnesses.

CNN's Nadia Romero joining me now from Brunswick, Georgia.

So, Nadia, what have we heard might happen tomorrow?

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, Fred, we're expecting those closing arguments tomorrow morning in the courthouse behind me. And that's after some 20 witnesses for the prosecution took to the stand and talked about their personal interactions with the defendants. And many of them say those conversations very quickly turned into racist rants against Black people. One woman was so upset talking about her interactions with Travis McMichael that she left the jury box in tears running out of the courtroom and falling into the arms of Marcus Arbery, Ahmaud Arbery's father.

Now, we also saw from the prosecution text messages and social media posts of the men very freely using the "N" word and saying that they wished that all black people would die. That the world would be better off without any black people left in the world. Now, the prosecution had 20 witnesses. The defense only had one witness but they don't have the burden of proof. That lies with the prosecution.

The defense only has to sprinkle in enough reasonable doubt to get an acquittal. But Ahmaud Arbery's brother says all the evidence is there to prove those three men killed her son simply because he was black. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANDA COOPER-JONES, AHMAUD ARBERY'S MOTHER: They really killed my son because he was black. And they said that he had committed a crime, but he hadn't did anything.

[14:40:03]

And I can say that removing those three people off the streets of Glynn County is big. It's huge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMERO: So you heard from Ahmaud Arbery's mother there hoping for a conviction. All three men already face life in prison but this will send a message to the rest of the world.

Fred, another important date, closing arguments Monday, but Wednesday marks two years since the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. And there will be memorial services held here in Brunswick and in Marietta Square near Atlanta, Georgia, as well -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nadia Romero, thank you so much. We'll be looking forward to your coverage this week as well.

All right. I want to bring in now, Tim Wise. He's an anti-racism writer and activist and he's joining me right now.

Tim, good to see you.

So the federal hate crimes trial clearly focused on race as it needed to do. As prosecutors argued that the three men acted out of racial animus toward Ahmaud Arbery. How receptive do you believe this jury is going to be? How different might it be from the state's case before a jury of peers in Brunswick, Georgia?

TIM WISE, ANTI-RACISM WRITER AND ACTIVIST: Well, you can't ever predict that for sure, but I think the evidence here is so overwhelming that it's not going to be particularly difficult for the jury to recognize the motivation, what really drove the killing of Ahmaud Arbery in this instance. And so I suspect that reasonable folks will come to what is really the only possible conclusion, which is that these individuals were motivated by racial bias.

I hope, however, that we will remember that they were motivated by a bias that isn't just the overt kind that you hear with racial slurs that we can all sort of identify and point at and feel superior because we don't speak that way and we'd never think that way. But the reality is this country for hundreds of years has inculcated a mentality among certain folks in the white community that Black people do not belong in your town, that they do not belong on your street, that they do not belong in your kids' school or in your neighborhood. Maybe not even in the country.

Remember, there were white folks that wanted Barack Obama to show his papers just to actually be able to be in the White House because there are a lot of white folks who don't think Black folks belong anywhere that we don't want them to be. So, I want us to not lose sight of the bigger picture that this country, for a very long time, has sent the message to people like the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan that what they did was perfectly legitimate.

That doesn't let them off the hook. But what it means is that we as a country have some soul searching to do because what these three defendants did was they learned the lessons of their country. It is not just their racism. It is our cultural and social crisis of racial bias that's been here for a lot longer than those three men have been on the earth.

WHITFIELD: Not just of the past but, obviously, of the present. Ahmaud Arbery killed two years ago and here we are, today, right now, with this hate crimes trial involving these three people already convicted.

So, after the three were convicted of Arbery's murder, you wrote a piece for "An Injustice Magazine" in which you say: Here is perhaps the most telling thing about this case and most important moving forward. Namely, we only know about the video because the killers released it. And they did this because they felt confident it would exonerate them. So, you know, you are underscoring that of what you wrote in the point

that you just made, a comfort level and a feeling that you are in company of thinking and acting the same way.

WISE: Yeah. These guys thought that the video was exonerate them because they figured people would look at that and go, oh, well, that's a Black guy and he's clearly up to no good and he clearly is charging us and attacking us because in their mind, that was aggressive behavior on the part of Ahmaud Arbery as opposed to a man who is scared trying to get away, trying to get a gun out of someone's hand. Not to use it on them but so that he won't get shot. It's a perfectly rational reaction.

But to them, because they've been encouraged to think of Black men as dangerous, they figured everyone else would see that the same way.

WHITFIELD: So with a conviction in this hate crimes trial, do you believe that this is an instrument in which to penetrate that thinking that that approach that you just described has become and is a cultural one?

WISE: Well, it certainly is important to do in its own right to get justice for Ahmaud's family. But we're going to have to do a lot more than simply put these three men away on a hate crimes charge or even a state charge that they'll already be in prison for. We have to do more than this.

This is a national campaign that we've got to engage. We've got to be pushing back on these folks that don't want us to talk about the history of racism in this country in our schools because if we don't understand where the mentality of these men came from, which we won't if we're not allowed to talk about that history. If we don't understand that we're going to have more of these incidents take place.

[14:45:05]

This is why the fight against anti-racist education, not critical race theory because that's not what in schools, but anti-racist education, this new censorship that we're seeing on the right, this is the danger. If we shut down conversations about where this thinking comes from, we'll have more people die at the hands of racists like these three defendants.

WHITFIELD: Tim Wise, thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate your insight.

WISE: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Coming up -- the Winter Olympics coming to a close today. Next, I'll sit down with a former Olympian -- once an Olympian, always an Olympian discussing the scandals that become a focal point of these games year after year.

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WHITFIELD: All right. The closing ceremony for the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics was held this morning. Many of you will be watching it this evening. At the center point of the Olympic Games, however, was the scandal surrounding the 15-year-old Russian skater Kamila Valieva who tested positive for performance enhancing drug. Her gold medal, team gold medal, is still in doubt amid an investigation.

Erik Kynard is a two-time Summer Olympian who won silver in the high jump at the 2012 Olympic Games in London. I was there in the audience. Very exciting.

Almost a decade later, however, that medal was upgraded to gold after the Russian athlete who won that gold was banned for doping and his past results were disqualified, talking about the Russian.

And Erik is joining me right now.

So good to see you.

ERIK KYNARD, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST, HIGH JUMP: Good to see you as well. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: So, tell me what that was like. At the time, really being robbed of that moment of being a gold medalist.

KYNARD: Right.

WHITFIELD: Fantastic. Congratulations on the silver medal, but because of the Russian athletes doping -- positive doping tests, you really were deprived of an experience in London. And has that forever kind of blemished, you know, your memory of the games?

KYNARD: I wouldn't say blemishes my memory of the games. I look at it is -- I don't live out of my ego that way.

I think that for me and, you know, to be a 21-year-old young man at the time, you know, it may have worked out better in the timing of my life that it was a delayed accomplishment, a delayed acknowledgment. But you definitely do wonder. And I know very well there's no reparations associated with, you know, how these things play out with drugs and doping scandals. But I try not to lament over it more than anything else.

WHITFIELD: So, here we are now talking about the winter games here. You know, closing ceremonies today. And still this very dark cloud over, you know, the doping positive test involving the Russian teen because of a history of doping. The Russian team was not allowed to compete under the auspices as representatives of Russia. But they were as the Russian Olympic committee team.

And now, the Americans who were to win silver were not able -- or they're being denied of their team medal. So talk to me about how frustrating it is as an Olympian to see what seems to be a recurring thing involving the Russian athletes. KYNARD: It makes you wonder about the institution of the Olympic

movement and the institution of doping as it relates to Olympic sports in particular Russia. And why, you know, a country has been allowed so many chances to, you know, rebrand themselves and reposition themselves in the Olympic movement. It's something that I've spoken to on numerous occasions that may be more of a greater financial decision than many would lead on or suggest to investigate. I'm not sure.

But I know there is, as it relates to in our sport in track and field and athletics, they do pay fines, and there is some reparative thing they have to do in order to be able to compete under a flag of solidarity.

WHITFIELD: Is this a problem with the IOC? Is it the World Anti- Doping? I mean, why is it that it involves banned substances and, you know, an athlete testing positive. In this case, she was able to continue to compete, even after the hearing because they made the discovery or it was learned once she was already there.

And then you've heard the ongoing conversations involving Sha'Carri Richardson and her testing positive with marijuana use, wasn't able to compete at all.

What is it going to take for whether it's the IOC, U.S. Olympic team, what is it going to take for everyone to be on the same accord and all athletes being treated the same?

KYNARD: I don't know that we'll ever get to everyone being on the same accord and athletes being treated the same merely because there are different standards for different national governing bodies, different standards for different countries as relates to doping and the infrastructures they have in place. For us, we fall under U.S. anti- doping as I'm sure you know and WADA is a scope that is a net that casts farther than U.S. Anti-Doping where everyone else falls under that jurisdiction.

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Locally is the difficulty as far as what's going on and how people are being tested locally by their governing bodies and, you know, doping control agencies, whether that be in Russia or, you know, in Kenya or in any country of the world. How the infrastructure -- if any infrastructure exists to do said testing. And I think that's where the biggest issues come.

WHITFIELD: Can I ask you, before you go -- and by the way, we both have tested negative, so, you know, that's why we're able to be in this space. Can you give me an idea what it felt like later to get a gold medal where you weren't able to be on the podium to receive it, if there is a way in which you can convey to other American athletes who might be experiencing the same thing upcoming from this game. What was that like?

KYNARD: I can't convey that but I haven't yet received that gold medal. We're in the process of scheduling an awards ceremony to be announced at a later date. But, you know, after all this time, yes, I have yet to still receive the --

WHITFIELD: 2012? Okay.

KYNARD: Yes. So, yes, that's why I stated, for me, I just look at the accomplishment of a perspective that it was in the savings of the awards that I won and not the checking, so to speak.

WHITFIELD: It's on the books. It's on the film.

KYNARD: Yes.

WHITFIELD: It was your experience and no one can take that away from you. And still super congratulations on your entire Olympic experience, two Olympic experiences. And the London Games in which you medaled.

KYNARD: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

WHITFIELD: Fantastic. Nice to see you. Appreciate it.

Erik Kynard, thank you for being with us.

And we're back in a moment.

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