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White House Says, Significant Additional Sanctions on Russia Coming in Hours; Estonian President Meets with Ukrainian Counterpart in Kyiv; Verdict Reached for Three Arbery Killers in Federal Hate Crimes Trial. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 22, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:01]

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So, this case will go before the court some time after October in their next term. This will be the time perhaps that the court could rule on that broader issue whether or not businesses can refuse services to same-sex couples if they have religious objections.

Bianna, the court has not fully addressed this issue yet. It's been a big looming question over the past several years. So, the court could get to this question when we see them hear this case some time beginning after October in their next term, Bianna.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Major development at the Supreme Court this morning. Jessica Schneider, thank you.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from Lviv, Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

The sanctions are coming soon, the White House says. The U.S. will impose significant additional sanctions on Russia, this after President Vladimir Putin ordered military troops into Eastern Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN FINER, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: This is, yes, the beginning of an invasion, Russia's latest invasion into Ukraine.

I don't know how much more clear I can be. This is the beginning of an invasion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: You heard that word there, invasion.

This morning, global reaction to Putin's moves, the U.K. has imposed sanctions on Russian banks as well as oligarchs. The biggest response though came from Germany, which has had a long and very close relationship with Russia. The chancellor, Ohlaf Scholz, halts the certification process for Nord Stream 2, it's a Russia to Germany natural pipeline with major financial and geopolitical implications.

Also new this morning, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky claims Russia is creating a legal basis for further armed aggression against Ukraine, and he is warning his people to prepare for further Russian aggression as a result.

Our reporters and correspondents are following every angle of this story across the region and back home. Let's begin though with CNN Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward from the capital of Ukraine, Kyiv.

Clarissa, Zelensky says that Russia, in his speech last night and in his moves today and the recognition, is trying to create a claimed legal basis not just for aggression in the east but for further armed aggression. That said, he doesn't think there will be a war. Reconcile those two for us.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, basically, what President Volodymyr Zelensky is doing, I think, Jim, is try to calm people by saying that there will be no war, by trying to maintain the Ukrainian people's confidence. But at the same time, what he sees playing out here is a sort of entree, if you will, for President Putin to try to start nibbling away at Ukrainian territory.

And what I'm talking about specifically is the idea of the territory of Luhansk and Donetsk, these breakaway republics. Russia has said that it has recognized them in their current status. But what is not clear is are they talking about borders as they currently are, with the frontlines as they currently are, or are they talking about them as the people and the leaders of these separatist regions perceive them to be. Because the territory that they claim in these separatist regions is actually significantly larger than what they currently have and there are several major Ukrainian-held cities, like Mariupol, Sloviansk, Sovira (ph), Donetsk, that would be in the so-called contested areas that the separatists believe belong to them but which are currently held by Ukraine.

Now, Russia's deputy foreign minister told TASS, the Russian news service, that, currently, there are no plans to send any Russian troops into Donbas, but simply put, no one here expects that to necessarily be the case. We also heard from President Putin's spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov, today, who refuses to comment on whether there a Russian troops inside Donbas and also, crucially, Jim, refused to comment on whether these areas and the recognition of these areas is as they stand today or as they would purport to be. And that will be a crucial area going forward because it could ostensibly give Russia a fig leaf or some kind of legal claim in their eyes to try to push forward further into Ukrainian territory.

Zelensky, of course, going on to really urge a robust response from the west, acting in unity. We've seen, as you mentioned, Olaf Scholz talking about an end to Nord Stream 2, which is huge and has been greeted very positively here. We've seen those U.K. sanctions announced. But the question now becomes, what is in store for the U.S. today?

[10:05:02]

What will they announce? Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. And we should note that all those areas in the east, as well as Crimea, those are inside, they fall with inside Ukraine's sovereign borders, whatever Russia claims about them. Clarissa Ward in Kyiv, thanks so much.

CNN Senior International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen, he is on, near the Russia/Ukraine border. And this morning, Fred, you've been seeing and sharing images of a large number of Russian military vehicles close to Ukraine's border. Can you give us a sense of exactly where they are, what you're seeing, what numbers and what mix of weapons?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim. We're sort of in the southern part of that border between the Russian Federation and those Donbas republic, of course, Ukrainian territory, but those areas that were just recognized by Vladimir Putin. I would say that right now, I'm maybe about 30 miles away from the border and we saw a lot of that military activity also about 20 to 30 miles away from the border. And the mix of weapons that you're talking about, it was really quite interesting to see, because there were some pretty heavy weapons that were in that mix. We saw some infantry-fighting vehicles. We saw some tanks but we also saw some self-propelled artillery as well.

And one of the things, Jim, that has the U.S. concerned, and we could actually see that on the ground here as well, is U.S. officials and defense officials have said is that the troops that the Russians have here have a different posture than they have before. They no longer in larger encampments, you won't see tanks, for instance, driving around in the back-up trucks, but they'll actually driving around self- propelled.

And so the U.S. believes that they're sort of moving closer into sort of possible fighting positions, as the U.S. has said, that the fact that these republics are now recognized by Vladimir Putin could indicate that a larger offensive could be to come.

Now, the Kremlin, of course, has said that that's absolutely not the case and also, as Clarissa mentioned, said that, at this point in time, they don't plan to put armed forces on the ground inside of those two separatist areas. But, certainly, from what we can see here on the Russian side of the border, there is a formidable force here on the ground. There are heavy weapons on the ground here. And there certainly seem to be Russian specialists on the ground as well, from what we could see sort of from a distance. So, the Russians certainly have a lot of fire power on this side of the border, and at the same time, of course, are saying that they aren't going to put those troops into those areas in the Donbas and the Donetsk republic or Luhansk republic either.

I've also been speaking to some people. There are actually still, Jim, people coming out of those areas as well. They're going into camps. They're actually getting shelter here as well. And a lot of them have said that they praise Vladimir Putin, that they are very much in favor of the decision that he's made. As you can imagine, of course, a lot of those people very much sort of on the pro-Russian, pro-Kremlin side, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And it is the view of the U.S. military that Russia will indeed put more forces there inside Ukrainian territory in the east. Fred Pleitgen on the border, Clarissa Ward in the capital of Kyiv, thanks so much.

Bianna, back to you to see what the White House is up to.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Well, the White House is planning to slap significant sanctions on Russia for its aggressive actions in Ukraine, but the Biden administration is not yet slamming the door on diplomacy, walking a really fine line here.

CNN's John Harwood joins us now from the White House. John, many had expected further sanctions to be announced last night, earlier this morning. How far now is the White House willing to go?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, there's been a fascinating shift in tone from the White House over the last 18 hours or so. We saw that last evening after Vladimir Putin issued his declaration, announced that he was sending troops into the Donbas, the administration on the call with reporters declined to say, to specify that this was, in fact, an invasion. Now, that may have reflected some uncertainty over exactly what was happening, may have reflected some uncertainty over how united the NATO and the western alliance would be in countering what Russia did.

In any case, the consultations overnight have produced a different tone this morning. You heard from Jon Finer, the deputy national security adviser, calling it an invasion, said, there's no other way to be clearer than that. This is the beginning of an invasion. And you had that announcement from Olaf Scholz of Germany saying they're going to halt the certification of Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary, welcomed that development, said that they had talked with U.S. allies overnight about that. We're going to get more sanctions today.

Do not expect the full package of sanctions. Don't know, for example, whether they're going to unplug -- attempt to unplug Russia from the global financial system or what kind of sanctions on oligarchs are going to be imposed. The U.K. took some steps in that direction today. Senior administration official told me today, if we're going to try to deter an attack on Kyiv and seizure of the entire country, which we think is a serious probability, we need to hold some things.

In any case, it is a much starker tone this morning.

[10:10:02]

We're going to get some severe sanctions, not the entire package, but the administration seems to be recognizing and has allies together in recognizing that this, in fact, is what everyone had feared, a genuine Russian invasion of Ukraine, as Vladimir Putin signaled yesterday in his speech. GOLODRYGA: Yes. Listen, call them what you will. Putin calls them peacekeepers. We saw Russian tanks rolling into Ukraine, a sovereign country, overnight, with our own very eyes. John Harwood, thank you. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Estonia is a NATO ally that's offered some of the most fulsome support to Ukraine throughout this crisis. And now, I am joined by the Estonian prime minister, Kaja Kallas. Prime Minister, thanks for taking the time again this morning.

KAJA KALLAS, ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: First, on definition of what happened so far, does Estonia, does NATO believe that Russia has carried out an invasion, and if so, should Russia now face the full range of penalties that NATO leaders, yourself included, have been talking about for a number of days leading up to this?

KALLAS: Russia has definitely expanded its aggression. I mean, recognition of the two republics, so-called republics, is definitely going a step further. And why is it necessary why he's doing this is in order to send the troops in, as we have seen, like a peacekeeping mission. So, first, you need the recognition and then they sort of ask for help and then you send the troops in.

But what is interesting is that, so far, Russia has denied their troops being in those Luhansk and Donbas regions fighting there. But now, they sort of take this step but they are there and moved additional troops to help them there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KALLAS: And sanctions, you asked --

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because, as you know, there had been predictions of something far bigger, and, by the way, as you know better than me, there's quite a Russian force still nearly surrounding Ukraine. Do you, does NATO believe that Russia still plans a full- scale invasion of Ukraine?

KALLAS: Well, all the elements are there. They can go on with a full- scale aggression if they want to. And if you listen carefully to Putin's speech, then he was very articulate about this, that he wants to expand the borders and his aim is to restore the Russian empire, which goes much further than not only Ukraine but also other countries. Therefore, he made no secret of this, and what we have been saying all along.

SCIUTTO: Understood. And I do want to ask you about that, what that means for Estonia, which, of course, is a former Soviet republic as well. But before we get there to sanctions, Germany has suspended certification of Nord Stream 2 with tremendous implications for Europe. Is this temporary or is Nord Stream 2 gone for good?

KALLAS: It is a good question, but I would say that it is very -- I mean, Germany's decision has been taken very well in this part of the world, because we have been saying all along that it's a geopolitical project rather than economical one. And I think this decision was expected also from your side of the Atlantic. So, definitely, saying no to Nord Stream 2 is a very strong message from Germany.

SCIUTTO: Now, Estonia, yourself, Estonian officials, yourself included, have said that more sanctions are coming in conjunction with your fellow NATO allies. What further penalties do you plan to take now?

KALLAS: We have been discussing in the European Union regarding the sanctions. And it has been agreed that the first batch of sanctions will be put in place as soon as possible. So, I hope that we can arrange this already in the coming days, even maybe during today. But then, of course, if they move even further, if they broaden their aggression even further, then there are other sanctions to be followed. And I also heard that the same kind of batch of sanctions comes from U.S. and also U.K. and other allies.

SCIUTTO: Listening to the Russian president's speech last night, he said a lot of things in what was really a false history lesson. But one thing he said that was notable, he said in his words, it was madness that the former Soviet Union allowed its former republics to leave so easily.

[10:15:00]

Of course, he was talking about Ukraine, but that encompasses other former Soviet republics, like yourself, that are now independent democratic states. Did you hear from Putin a challenge, in effect, to Estonia's independence?

KALLAS: Well, first of all, it has to be reminded that we were an independent republic before the Soviet aggression. So, we are actually celebrating this Thursday our 104th anniversary of our country. So, this year period that we were on the Soviet Union was an exemption, I hope, rather than the rule. So, this is so much for the history.

But, of course, there was a clear threat to us as well in that history lesson, how Putin sees the picture. And this is very, very frightening. Of course, our position is different as we are part of NATO, but still, how Russia sees things is worrying.

SCIUTTO: I've been to Estonia more than once and I've certainly seen and experienced an independent nation, a thriving one in many ways. Prime Minister Kaja Kallas, thanks so much for joining us again.

KALLAS: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, we want to bring you that breaking news here in the U.S. Jurors have reached a verdict in the federal hate crimes trial of three white men already convicted in state court of Ahmaud Arbery's murder. It will be read in about 15 minutes. And we'll have a live report from Brunswick, Georgia, straight ahead.

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[10:20:00]

GOLODRYGA: More of our breaking news, the jury has reached a verdict in the federal hate crimes trial of the three white men convicted of the murder of Ahmaud Arbery.

CNN's Nadia Romero is in Brunswick, Georgia. Nadia, what more are we hearing?

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Bianna, we know that they will read that verdict at 10:30 Eastern Time. So, we're just about nine minutes away from learning the fate of the three men who have already been convicted in murdering Ahmaud Arbery and their state trial now facing federal hate crime in this trial right now in the courthouse behind me. So, we're eagerly awaiting that verdict.

Earlier today, the jury came back into the courthouse for deliberations at 9:00 in the morning. They had a question for the judge about this form. This is the special verdict form and it lists all the charges, it lists who's charged and what they're being charged with. And so there will be likely a difference because Roddie Bryan doesn't face the same as Travis and Gregory on one count of a weapons charge, because he did not have a gun during the incident. But you will hear charges about interference with rights and kidnapping charges. That is what the jury has already apparently decided upon.

So, we are eagerly awaiting their verdict along with the families of everyone involved. Lee McMichael, the mother of Travis, the wife of Gregory McMichael, was in the courtroom yesterday for closing arguments. She just arrived at the courthouse now. We do expect to see Ahmaud Arbery's parents, his mother, his father, his aunt, so many of his family members and supporters have been in this trial since the beginning, since jury selection.

We spoke with his aunt just last night who said that this is just painful for their family to have to just wait. They can't sleep, they can't eat, just waiting to hear the fate. But she believes they will get a guilty verdict, guilty on all counts for all three men, just like what we saw in the state trial. And she believes that Ahmaud is watching and knows that everyone is watching this case.

Of course, tomorrow, Bianna, is the two-year mark since the death of Ahmaud Arbery, since his murder. There will be memorial services here in Brunswick, Georgia, and in the Atlanta area, but all eyes right now on this courtroom behind me waiting to hear what the jury has decided. Bianna?

GOLODRYGA: And we will bring our viewers that verdict when it comes down. Nadia Romero, thank you.

We're going to turn now to the escalating, continuing -- covering the escalating conflict in Russia where Vladimir Putin has sparked international outrage by advancing into eastern Ukraine. The U.S. is now vowing to respond with significant sanctions in an effort to prevent a full-blown Russian invasion.

SCIUTTO: Joining us now to discuss, James Clapper, CNN National Security Analyst and former Director of National Intelligence. Director, good to have you on.

You're aware of something of a public debate now as to whether to define this as an invasion. The White House says it is an invasion. And as you know better than me, Putin is very good at trying to operate just below the threshold of war here. I wonder, do you see this move in the Donbas by Putin as his final step here or just the first of many steps to slice away territory from Ukraine?

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Jim, I think it's the latter case. I think this is just the first in a sequence of events that, at least he has in mind, which ultimately is to restructure the security infrastructure, the arrangements that have prevailed in Europe for some 30 years.

I think his speech is very revelatory, the grievance that he feels personally on behalf of Russia and I think it's been eating at him for about 30 years, and for whatever reason, he's chosen now to move.

[10:25:04]

And I think these steps into the Donbas are just the first in a sequence of what his objectives are anyway.

GOLODRYGA: Russian officials have not been shy in making clear that whatever retaliatory measures the U.S. takes against Russia, the west will feel pain as well. And I'm curious, what should Americans in particular be on the lookout for and bracing for, not just vis-a-vis oil prices or the markets, but in terms of perhaps cyber threats here?

CLAPPER: Exactly, Bianna. I think we're not going to be immune. As we lead the effort to impose international sanctions on Russia, Russia is not going to sit still for that. So, I think we need to anticipate absorbing some pain as well particularly in the cyber realm, and we've certainly seen a number of recent examples of not just inconvenience but the pain that can cause. So, we shouldn't feel that we're going to be insulated from what's going on in Europe.

SCIUTTO: Putin in his speech was showing nostalgia, frankly, for the old Soviet Union and his positions attempt to turn back the clock, as you say, some 30 years here. And I wonder, is it an exaggeration to say that the Russia and the west are returning to and perhaps have returned to already, in some ways, to a new cold war? Is that an exaggeration or is that the kind of dynamic we're looking at now?

CLAPPER: No, Jim. I think you're right. I think we're in another maybe even a colder war here, which could well heat up. And I think this is -- marks -- is emblematic of an attempt by Putin to turn back the clock to about 1991 or so when the Soviet Union collapsed. And, of course, that led to the expansion of NATO into Central and Eastern Europe. And I believe Putin is bent on reversing that.

I don't know how successful he'll be because now we're getting in the realm of unanticipated, unintended consequences. Up to this point, Putin controlled the script. But as soon as invasions happen and shooting starts, then it's a different proposition. GOLODRYGA: It was clearly a fiery speech, one that I have not heard from Vladimir Putin, that we saw yesterday, and I personally did not see any window of opportunity in his view of diplomatic routes in the near term. I'm just curious, given that the White House continues to walk this fine line of saying the window -- the opportunity for diplomacy still exists, at the same time, expect harsher sanctions, if you were advising this president right now and this administration, would you suggest that Antony Blinken go forward with his meeting that was scheduled with Sergey Lavrov on Thursday at this point?

CLAPPER: Well, I think I'd want to know what the situation was by Thursday. I think the window for diplomacy is about closed. Diplomacy implies a give and take, and I don't believe the Russians are in the least bit -- Putin particularly, in the least bit disposed to getting. Certainly, he's in the mode of taking. So, I don't see much prospect for diplomacy.

So, I think the administration will have to judge what the conditions are about Wednesday night and decide whether that meeting should go forward or not. I think, frankly, it's time to start excluding the Russians from as many internationally as possible to include that.

SCIUTTO: That's a sobering reality to prepare for. Director James Clapper, thanks so much for walking us through that.

CLAPPER: Thanks, Jim, Bianna, good to be with you.

GOLODRYGA: Thank you.

Well, we are now just minutes away from the verdict being read in the federal hate crimes trial of the three men convicted in state court of Ahmaud Arbery's murder. We'll bring that breaking news to you live as soon as we have it.

Stay with CNN.

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