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Interview With French Ambassador to the United States Philippe Etienne; Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Defense William Cohen; President Biden Set to Deliver Remarks on Ukraine Crisis. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 22, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:03]

M.J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: So, of course, when President Biden speaks -- and he is expected to do that in a few minutes -- we should hear him address the American people as the nation's commander in chief.

There are going to be plenty of Americans across the country who are wondering, well, what does that mean for me? This is an event that is, of course, happening far away. But there are going to be plenty of people who are concerned about whether Americans are ultimately going to pay any kind of price.

And then I think we are going to be watching out for how the president explained sort of the next steps that the U.S. is going to take in terms of particularly the significant sanctions that the White House said are going to be headed in Russia's way. Is this going to be the full scale of sanctions package that the U.S. has been talking about for a while?

Or do they believe that they need to hold some of these things back so that they can still try to deter a more full-scale invasion in Ukraine? So, again, new language that we are hearing from the White House this morning, and this is going to be a critical speech from the nation's commander in chief, Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Yes, it will. It's a very, very important moment, not just in his presidency, but when we look down the road, a historical moment.

Nic Robertson, let me go to you in Moscow. Russia just announced it's pulling its diplomatic staff out of Ukraine. What does that signal?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think this is deeply troubling, considering the other messages we have had from President Putin today. He's in the last few hours announced that the Minsk peace process is dead. That means peace talks with Ukraine are over, from his perspective.

He has just been given the legal authority that he requires to follow through and put Russian forces inside that separatist area. But, also, it allows him -- that same authorization allows him, legalistically, which is the way he likes to work, to use Russian forces outside of Russia. That means the rest of Ukraine would -- he would have a green light for that as well.

He has been doubling down on his invective against Ukrainian authorities, saying that they are trying to essentially build or construct a nuclear weapon that would become a strategic threat to Moscow. He has been laying out the groundwork for the reason that Russia might have to go to war in Ukraine, laying out the reasons why he can no longer talk to the authorities in Kyiv, that they are an illegitimate government, and, indeed, over the previous days, laying out that Ukraine is actually part of Russia.

When you add all of that together and this latest move of Russian diplomats being told to leave Ukraine, it seems to signal that he knows there is worse that is coming.

BASH: Sure does.

And, Clarissa, Russia's embassy and consulate are where you are, in Kyiv. Has there been a notable shift within the city since this time yesterday, when we last spoke?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's definitely been a shift, Dana.

In light of everything that Nic just laid out, President Putin's speech yesterday, the fact that Russian forces, according to NATO and other sources, are already entering the Donbass region, those breakaway republics in the far eastern part of the country, everybody senses that this is a major inflection point.

And the real fear now becomes, where does it end? President Volodymyr Zelensky spoke today. He said he doesn't believe there will be an all- out war. He also refrained from using the invasion word. But he did say that essentially what Russia is doing here is creating a legal basis to perpetrate further aggressions from within Ukraine.

And what essentially I think he's talking about there is that there's some ambiguity about what the borders of these self-declared republics actually are. There are the borders as they stand, the front lines as they stand, and there are the borders as have previously been outlined by the separatist leaders.

And what's interesting, Dana, is when Putin's spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov, was pressed on this issue, and also when one of those separatist leaders was pressed on this issue, they both seemed to sort of obfuscate the question and say, well, we can't really answer that, that's a complex issue. And that ambiguity is precisely what feeds into this profound sense of

anxiety, that sense of not knowing exactly what's coming next, but knowing very clearly that Putin has laid the groundwork for many different possible permutations.

And so I think what people are waiting to see now and certainly what Ukraine's leaders are waiting to see now is what exactly President Biden is going to announce in this speech, because there's a sense of real urgency that the U.S. stand in unity with NATO allies and take a strong stance with Ukraine.

And, by all accounts, that's exactly what we can expect the U.S. to do, but definitely a marked shift here on the ground from what I would say before was more of an attitude of keep calm and carry on, and we see the intelligence, but we interpret it differently.

[13:05:04]

I think now everybody sees the writing on the wall, and it looks very grim, Dana.

BASH: And, Jim Sciutto, you are roughly 300 miles west of where Clarissa is. What are you hearing on the ground, where you are in Lviv?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a country that still is surrounded by the bulk of Russia's conventional military forces.

So, with the word of what's happening in the east, Russia, in effect, slicing off another piece of Ukraine, as it did in 2014 with Crimea, it still maintains a force amounting to three-quarters of its conventional military that threatens at least the possibility of further military intervention along really three sides of this country, from the northeast and the south.

The U.S. military continues to see preparations for something that broad. Doesn't mean that President Putin orders something that broad today or tomorrow or next week, but he does maintain the capability to do so. And, as recently as last night, the U.S. was still observing preparations for broader military intervention, things like loading amphibious ships and loading aircraft for Russian airborne forces.

That may be part of the function, right, just to maintain that military leverage around the country as it is now exercising in the eastern part of the country. But I will tell you, does the threat extend from east to west? At least in the view of the U.S. State Department, it does, because, last night, it moved all of its diplomats out of Lviv, sent them across the border east into Poland, brought them back during the day.

But, remember, it was only last week that they move their diplomats from the capital, Kyiv, to here, but then made a judgment last night, Dana, that even here in Lviv was not safe enough. That is the state of continuing alert here in this country, from the U.S. perspective. BASH: All telling indicators about what intelligence both in Ukraine

and U.S. intelligence sees about President Putin's strategy in the coming days.

And, Barbara, at the Pentagon, I want to go to you.

A Western official tells CNN that -- quote -- "combat indicators" continued to get worse. I know you talk all day long to your sources there at the Pentagon. What are they seeing when it comes to intelligence?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think one of the most interesting things is, intelligence services across Europe, in the West and along that eastern flank of NATO seem to have a very common picture right now of what their assessment is.

They are indeed, as Jim so thoroughly mentioned, watching any movement of Russian aircraft, Russian weapons troops, warships in the -- Russian warships heavily armed with troops on board in the Black Sea and off Ukraine's coastline for potential amphibious landings.

A couple of interesting things here. The Russians have put so much right along Ukraine's borders. They are going to have to make a decision, go or no go, because they're not going to be able to leave everything in the field, all those troops at a high state of readiness, for an endless period of time.

Right now, they're facing the possibility of pretty decent weather for their operations in the coming days. And this has not escaped U.S. intelligence. The weather forecast may be all-important for when they decide to make a move, so those heavy Russian military vehicles don't get bogged down in rain and mud in the countryside.

So a lot of looking at all of this. How long can they stay out there? Where are they? Most interesting, I think, of all the sources we have spoken to today, not one has said, no, we don't think they're going to go. Across the board, whether it's formal or informal, the assessment is, the U.S. believes the Russians are going to make a move, that they may well in fact go for a further full invasion of Ukraine.

And a reminder, in the U.S. view, that will be a humanitarian disaster, the likes of which Europe and the world has not seen in some decades.

BASH: Such important reporting, as always, Barbara.

OK, Barbara, M.J., Clarissa, Jim, and Nic, please stay close.

We are waiting. Again, any moment now President Biden will speak and make what we are told will be a significant announcement.

And while we wait for the president, I want to get to former Defense Secretary under President Clinton William Cohen.

So, Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for joining me.

What do you want to hear from President Biden?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I want to hear that President Biden is going to impose very heavy sanctions upon Putin, on Russia, the oligarchs.

But I also need to say that I don't think this will deter Putin from launching a an attack. He has already invaded Ukraine, but it's kind of a salami-type of approach, a slice here, a slice there, take Crimea, take Donbass. They just keep taking a slice out of the country.

[13:10:04]

But I don't think he will be deterred, no matter how heavy these sanctions are going to be. What we have to do is, what happens after the sanctions? What happens if he goes in? What is the policy of the United States? What do we do in terms of supporting Ukraine and helping to help them to sustain themselves against an overwhelming force?

What do we do about putting more troops along -- more along all of the NATO countries right now? Certainly, there are those who are vulnerable as a result of Russia moving so many forces into the region. Poland, Romania, others are now vulnerable to a potential attack in the future.

So we have got to reinforce all of our NATO countries, build up our support and say to Putin, you're not going to chase us out of Europe. We are there as a united front, and we will be there for a long time to come.

BASH: You're talking about fortifying NATO with more troops, including and especially U.S. troops.

Is diplomacy over? Has that ship sailed? And do you expect that the president will say that the upcoming meeting that was supposed to happen this week between U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Russia's Sergey Lavrov is not going to happen?

COHEN: Well, personally, I never believed that President Putin wants a diplomatic solution, other than full surrender upon Ukraine.

There are ways to settle this. There are ways in which we can reduce any fear, any legitimate fear, that Putin has. There are ways that we can address some of the honor he feels that Russia has lost. All of those can be at least addressed and, I think, solved.

But I don't think he's really interested in that. I think he says: I want Ukraine back. And how can I invade another country? I'm invading -- that's my own country. Ukraine is part of Russia. So there's no invasion.

That's the kind of rationale he's getting in to right now. And what we have to say is, why did all of these countries decide to join either E.U. or NATO? It was the equivalent of a jailbreak. The door was open from the jail, and they all rushed out and they embraced freedom. They embraced the United States, the Western way of life.

And so he finds that as a threat to the Russian imperial dreams that he has. And there is a way that we can address his fears. There's a way that we can address his interests. The question of his pride becomes another matter.

BASH: But what are those ways? If he has such pride, if he has such, from his perspective, historical reasons for wanting to retake Ukraine and make it part of Russia, then what are the ways that you think are -- that you can get to him?

COHEN: Well, I think there is merit to his claims that he has been given the backhand by the United States ever since the fall of the Soviet empire, that we didn't take him seriously, we have not given him the kind of respect that he feels that Russia deserves as a major power.

Obviously, they're a military power now. They're not an economic power, in a sense that they're global in reach. But they are a power to be, I would say, respected, and not necessarily admired, but respected in terms of their power, the history of the Russian people.

So I think we can say, look, maybe we should have done things a bit differently here. But these are countries that want to be free. And we are committed to their freedom. And so, how can we make it clear to you? Well, it's unlikely that Ukraine is going to become a member of NATO anytime in the foreseeable future.

The other NATO countries have indicated they're not interested in having Ukraine joined at this point. So, as a practical matter, he's already achieved his major goal, that Ukraine doesn't become a member. He wants it in writing and forever.

Now, that's something that the United States and the West cannot do. But there are ways to satisfy him that they are not going to be a threat to his security. I just think there are ways we can elevate our concern and respect for Russia, if not, again, for their way of life, but nonetheless show them the kind of respect that another country deserves, without in any way compromising the freedom of all of those countries who have become NATO or E.U. members.

BASH: Mr. Secretary, you have been a player on the world stage, not just in the Cabinet during the Clinton administration, but as a senior member of the Foreign Relations Committee, in the Senate for years and years and years. So you have been at this quite some time.

Can you put this in historical context, this moment where we are right now?

COHEN: I think we're at one of the most dangerous periods in our history, certainly since 1945. The danger that we face here is that, once we take a step, and then Putin responds to it, the cycle tends to escalate.

[13:15:02] In the event they go into Ukraine, and in the event there are wayward missiles fired at Ukrainians, but end up hitting some of American forces in the region, then the United States has to respond, and up the ladder we climb.

So, we have strived since 1945 to never come face to face in a military sense with the Russians. There's been a good reason for that, because they have nuclear weapons, as do we. And Putin has talked about exercising with nuclear weapons in Europe, in the European theater, at least. And this is sending a signal that: I can attack you with low-yield nuclear weapons, and then put the burden on you to come back and threaten me with a higher level of response.

And so that is the danger that we face, that this could go completely out of control, and up the nuclear ladder at the last -- as a last resort, something that neither he nor we or anyone in the world should ever want.

So that's the danger involved. It's not just, what happens if he goes in? Well, it's going to kill a lot of innocent people. And he doesn't particularly care about that. He has never cared about that.

So, we in the West do care about innocent lives. And that's tantamount, in my judgment, at least, to a war crime when you bomb innocent civilians deliberately in order to take over the country.

So, those are just a different -- a different philosophy. He's saying, I'm going to use my power to take back what's legitimately mine.

BASH: Exactly.

COHEN: And we're saying, it's not yours. And (AUDIO GAP) take it back.

BASH: Former Defense Secretary William Cohen, thank you so much for your insight. I really appreciate it.

And Russia's defiance is...

COHEN: My pleasure.

BASH: Thank you.

Russia's defiance is pushing oil and natural gas prices higher, even higher than they are now, but what else is at stake for the world economy? We're going to take a look, as we wait for President Biden to speak.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:23]

BASH: Right now, we are waiting on President Biden. He is expected to address the nation on the U.S. response to Russia's escalation in Eastern Ukraine.

We have already seen Germany's reaction. It's putting Nord Stream 2, that pipeline, on hold. That was supposed to bring natural gas from Russia directly into Europe, but halting it could lead to major economic impacts, not just in Europe, but all over the world.

CNN's Matt Egan joins us now.

So, Matt, there are a lot of people here in the U.S., where we are, and other places far from Ukraine, far from Russia or even Europe, saying, how does this affect me? What's the answer?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Dana, high inflation is the biggest problem in today's economy. And this crisis has the potential to make inflation even worse.

And this is not sitting well with investors, as we speak, the U.S. stock market at session lows, the Dow down about 500 points, 1.5 percent. One of the big concerns is, what happens to the already high cost of energy? Because, remember, Russia is the number two producer of both oil and natural gas.

We saw Brent oil prices rise above $99 a barrel this morning, before retreating. That is only going to drive up prices at the pump, the national average sitting at $3.53 a gallon. That's a seven-year high, and it's up by 20 cents in the past month. Natural gas prices are also higher. That means higher costs for heating your home. It also means higher costs for electricity.

Now, on the natural gas front, the United States doesn't rely on Russia for natural gas. But Europe, of course, does. And Germany took this really big step today by halting the certification of Nord Stream 2. That is a 750-mile pipeline that was supposed to be carrying natural gas from Russia to Germany. And Germany is already dealing with very high costs for energy right now. All of Europe is.

This pipeline was supposed to be giving Germany about half of its annual consumption of natural gas. It was also supposed to be a big moneymaker for Russia, contributing up to $15 billion a year in revenue for Russia's Gazprom.

But all of that is on hold right now because of the soaring tensions between Russia and the West. Dana, this is just one example of how this crisis has the potential to make inflation even worse.

BASH: All right, Matt Egan, thank you so much for that.

And I want to go now to the ambassador from France to the U.S., Philippe Etienne.

Thank you so much for joining me, Mr. Ambassador.

What message do you want to hear from President Biden when we expect him to speak momentarily?

PHILIPPE ETIENNE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: A message of unity, I'm sure, is very important.

And I'm sure this message will be delivered. We are in a very close consultation and a unity of position in this very, very dangerous moment. And we have been doing everything also on the European side, France holding the presidency of the council of the E.U. right now, to not only affirm this unity, but to act.

And the European ministers, foreign ministers, have just agreed in Paris on a strong first package of sanctions after the decisions taken by Moscow yesterday.

BASH: And do you expect the U.S. sanctions to be as or maybe more robust compared to what you just described that happened in Europe this morning?

ETIENNE: Well, we have been coordinating for weeks what we would do in case of a military intervention of Russia into Ukraine, an invasion, and also about the way to implement the sanctions and to mitigate the effects on our economies.

[13:25:13]

And now we have decided in Europe -- and I'm sure it has also been announced in the U.S. yesterday -- a first package of very, very strong sanctions against these decisions.

So, yes, we are coordinating the sanctions at every step.

BASH: You are a diplomat. You are France's ambassador to the U.S.

We heard from the former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper on CNN earlier today saying the window for diplomacy is basically closed at this point. Do you agree?

ETIENNE: Well, as a diplomat -- and thank you for asking the question you -- the way you did.

Of course, we will also have to resort to diplomacy as soon as there is space for it. But the reality, of course, is, after having heard the president's -- the speech by the president of Russia yesterday, and after having had the decisions he took, now it's time also for us for action.

But we want also to continue to do everything to deter what could be the next step. And we are fully aware of the volatility of the situation and other dangers of further escalations, after the escalations of yesterday, which were the decision by Russia, and which are a violation of Russian international commitments and of integrity, territorial integrity, and sovereignty of Ukraine.

BASH: So do you believe that the planned meeting between the U.S. secretary of state, Antony Blinken, and Russia's Sergey Lavrov will not happen?

ETIENNE: It's not -- Dana, it's not for me to answer the question.

BASH: OK. I thought I would give it a try, since I think you probably know the answer to that.

But let's talk a little bit more about sanctions, because we're going to hear some -- a speech, a very important speech from the U.S. president soon.

But, as you talked about, the key question is how far the actions will go. And, at this point, those actions are in the form of sanctions. How are you weighing how far to go right now and what sanction -- how much should you keep more robust sanctions in your sanction arsenal for when and if President Putin goes even further into Ukraine or maybe even beyond?

ETIENNE: Yes, this is a -- the question of the day.

We have first we take firm sanctions now, because what has been decided by Russia isn't acceptable and completely illegal. And we have also to envisage taking some more robust sanctions if Russia goes further.

BASH: And before I let you go, you are obviously here in the U.S. now, but you were a diplomat for France in Russia for a time. You speak Russian.

You understand probably maybe as well as anyone can what Vladimir Putin is going for here. What do you think his ultimate endgame is?

ETIENNE: Even if, indeed, I lived in Russia, it was 30 years ago, but I learned the language. I learned to like the people, the culture. So, for me, it's a very sad situation.

We have been doing everything. Our president in particular has been really doing everything possible to engage with Russia on the security issues, because we have common security issues in Europe. And he has -- together with President Biden and with other European leaders and other allies, we have been doing everything to give the option.

As one of your -- the experts you just interviewed said rightly, he had the option to discuss seriously, with serious offers, the questions of common interest of European security. Well, you have heard his speeches today.

BASH: And, before I let you go, how concerned are you about the economic impact of the sanctions that Europeans are putting in and what we expect to hear from the U.S. president momentarily?