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Massive Explosions Light Up Night Sky Near Ukrainian Capital; Ukrainian Forces Holding Back Invaders In Multiple Locations; Ukraine's Outgunned Forces Hold Capital Of Kyiv For Third Day; 120,000-Plus People Have Fled Ukraine Since Russian Invasion Began; U.S. Warns Of Russian Cyberattacks Amid Ukraine Invasion; Ukraine Invasion Threatens U.S.-Russia Partnership in Space. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 26, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:00:29]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday evening. It is now just after 5 a.m. in Kyiv. The sun will rise next hour but it is already a dark day in Ukraine. We have just learned a six year old little boy died in heavy gunfire in a western district of Kyiv Saturday night. Two teenagers are among the wounded.

And the night sky filled with this terrifying glow two massive explosions that our cameras in Kyiv captured this evening. This was nearly 20 miles away from the center of the Capital. The blasts hit a petroleum depot, according to the mayor in that town. And indeed a closer look shows an oil storage area on fire. This is an airbase. Ukrainian officials say the area was the scene of heavy fighting Friday night.

The mayor vowing tonight, "The enemy wants to destroy everything around but he will not be successful."

CNN's Alex Marquardt saw the fiery results himself from Kyiv.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Then, since then for the past seven eight minutes there has been this pulsing glow in the distance. You have to imagine that it is some kind of fire. It is a very eerie scene. It is a location that we've been looking at earlier today because there was a missile or a rocket that hit a residential building near that airport.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And the eastern city of Kharkiv, Ukraine State Emergency Service says a nine-storey residential building was hit by artillery, killing one woman. The emergency service of the building was extensively damaged and about 80 people were rescued. Most have been sheltering in the basement there. Also in Kharkiv, the blood center of all places came under fire. Witnesses say blood donors were begging for safety in a neighbor's basement. Two people were seriously wounded. Yet dozens continue to show up to donate even after the violence.

Russia's invasion is hitting "stiffer than expected resistance from the Ukrainian military." That's what two senior U.S. officials tell CNN. The Russians also have suffered heavier losses in personnel, armor and aircraft than expected. A senior defense official says Ukrainian air defenses have performed better than the U.S. anticipated. Ukraine will close its borders to Russia and Belarus, for anyone who was not a citizen beginning Monday.

More than 120,000 people have escaped Ukraine since the war started. Poland says 47,000 refugees crossed its borders just yesterday.

And CNN's Clarissa Ward went to the scene of that large residential apartment block hit by a missile or rocket. The terrifying deadly moment captured on video.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A man stands on his balcony looking out at a new reality. Just hours after a missile slammed into his apartment building.

It was 8 a.m. when the projectile hit, destroying parts of the 22nd and 23rd floors. According to Ukrainian authorities, two people were killed.

Officials here say it was a Russian strike. Russia's Ministry of Defense claim it was a Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile that went awry, whoever was responsible. This is what happens when war comes to a major city, homes and lives are destroyed.

At the city central train station, a frantic dash as people try to escape to the west of the country. Step back the train conductor says, step back. She tells the crowd to leave their bags to make room for more people.

(On camera): So she's just said that women and children could get on the train. Now, you can see people pushing to get on. They've got their pets. They've got their babies, and they're trying to get on this train to get out of here.

(Voice-over): Ukraine's railway services say they are evacuating 5000 people a day. Every single space is precious. We'll stand, this woman pleads. It's full the conductor tells her. Inside the carriage, it's standing room only. A woman, waves goodbye to her family. Who knows when she will be able to return? Her daughter, Tamara, has made the tough decision to stay behind.

[22:05:03]

(On camera): For many people it'll be hard to understand how brave you are to stay here and not to try to leave and get somewhere safe. TAMARA BAKOVA, KYIV RESIDENT: It's not a grave, I should just understand. It's my city. It's my hometown. It's my homeland. It's my country. And I'm not the one who should leave, the Russians are the ones who should live. And they would leave. I wouldn't leave the city before there.

WARD: Do you think many people are like you and they're ready to do everything they can to get Russia out?

BAKOVA: I'm not thinking I know.

WARD: This is the sort of extraordinary resistance Russia is facing here. 100 miles northeast of Kyiv, a man tries to block a Russian tank. He kneels in front of it, determined to stop it in its tracks. And for a brief moment he does before the column pushes on towards the Capitol. Clarissa Ward, CNN, Kyiv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You wonder what those Russian soldiers are thinking to during this.

Let's break down some of this visually with CNN Military Analyst and Retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Colonel, I'm going to talk about the multiple explosions that we have seen tonight in Kyiv. This is certainly alarming. But also, are you surprised that we haven't seen more of a full-fledged assault on the capital city?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, U.S. AIR FORCE (Ret.): Well, I think that's a great question, Pamela, because, you know, when you look at the types of things that have gone on here, it's basically a situation where we've got the precursors to an invasion or to a further escalation in violence.

So, the airbase that was hit is a little bit further south than the start. But I'm just putting that on there for visual effect. At that airbase that we had in the earlier reports, that was the one that lit up the sky with the explosions of the fuel storage tanks at the Vasylkiv Air Base. That is something that all of these, it's very symptomatic, let's say of all of the things that can happen is part of this stage of the of the invasion process.

Now, as far as what will happen next, what I would expect them to do is to go in and try to hit as many of the basic Bridge links that you have right through here. What that does is it cuts communication off. And what they'll also do is they'll try to perhaps couple that with cyber-attacks on specific Ukrainian entities. They've done some of that already.

But we haven't seen too much of that, at least not as much as we expected. Other things that they could do is potentially hit something like the Ukrainian parliament. And if that's the case, then of course, that affects the civil government and is symbolic target in that sense. BROWN: You know, we were talking earlier how the initial explosions earlier is often a precursor, right? To something more happening. But here we are, it's early morning there in Kyiv, still no full on assault happening, just wondering what you think of that, and what more you're looking for in the hours ahead?

LEIGHTON: Well, like you, Pam, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet. However, there may be several reasons for that. Number one, it could be that they're trying to keep us guessing, you know, when are they actually going to do this, and then lawless into a false sense of complacency. But the other thing that I think is more likely to have caused this is perhaps there's a problem, either logistically, or with some of the operational aspects of this.

Maybe things aren't quite as synchronized as they thought they would be. One of the key things about operations like this, when you're coming from multiple different areas, is you want to make sure that everybody comes in at basically the same time. It's kind of like the thing you saw on the movies about synchronize your watches. That's what they should happen in operations like this. And if they aren't synchronizing their watches, it's not going to work the way they wanted to.

BROWN: I want to get your reaction to what our CNN crew spotted earlier today in Kyiv. It is a vacuum bomb launcher, right near the border. What is that?

LEIGHTON: So this is called a TOS1, T-O-S1. And this is a vacuum bomb launcher, like you mentioned, it is something that is filled with what's called high temperature, high pressure explosive. It's called a thermobaric bomb. The other term for it is a vacuum bomb. What does it do? It basically -- when it explodes, it sucks the oxygen out of the atmosphere.

And when that happens, it actually, if you're in an enclosed area, it actually sucks the oxygen out of people, it can actually affect your lungs and can actually kill people in that way because of the pressures that are exerted on the human body in that case, it is a very grotesque weapon. So this is the kind of weapon that is used in enclosed spaces.

It goes after people in trenches, in bunkers, in other enclosed spaces like buildings, and that is a real dangerous weapon to see on the road and it could very well be used as part of an escalatory effort, it was part of the Russian campaign.

BROWN: Right, because so far, the Russians have faced more resistance than they had calculated, right? I mean, it even surprised U.S. intelligence assessments by how slow the assault has been for Russia given what they thought would happen. How concerned are you that Russia will use more aggressive forces moving forward? I mean, it that is terrifying to think that that is being moved in to Ukraine?

[22:10:15]

LEIGHTON: One of the things the Russians don't do is they don't worry too much about human life for collateral damage, what we in the U.S. would call collateral damage, which means killing civilians by mistake when you're going into to conduct military operations. So this represents to me the high likelihood that the Russians are going to go for broke, they're going to try to use weapon systems like this in order to reach their targets, and they won't care like, you know, we would like to think we would about civilian casualties.

And that's going to be a real problem. And it's going to be if it is used like this, it's going to be a very terrible price that the Ukrainians will have to pay for that.

BROWN: That is just barbaric as grotesque, it is just hard to fathom how anyone could be OK with that. Thank you so much, Cedric Leighton.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Pamela.

BROWN: Our breaking news coverage continues in a moment. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[22:15:15]

BROWN: 850,000 Ukrainians are now displaced. That is according to a U.N. official. 1000s of Ukrainians are trying to get to safety as the violence picks up. Roads and train stations have been swamped with people. Many are women and children leaving husbands, fathers, sons, and brothers behind to fight the Russian assault. The latest count puts the number of people who have left the country at more than 120,000.

And CNN's Erin Burnett spent the day with some of them. She joined me earlier tonight from Ukraine's border with Hungary.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You began your journey to cross the border on the Lviv, 20 hours ago. Tell us what happened when you headed for Poland?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR, ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT: So the first thing we did we got up this morning, we had been down for maybe about an hour awoken by air sirens, down in the bomb shelter. That's how it is now and then we began our journey to the Polish border.

And first we passed the train station and it is just hordes of people, Pamela, just hordes of people. It is indescribable. People rushing to get on buses. And as you said it is primarily women and children. The men, obviously many of them are not Ukrainians who are trying to get out. And tuna tend to rush onto those buses to get on to get over the border.

When we went to the border, we were stopped dead about 29 miles from the exact border. Sorry about that. And at that point, it just came to a complete halt. Over the next two hours, we went about or 90 minutes about half a mile. So it was running about 57 hours to cross the Merdeka border with Poland. I mean, Pamela, it was incredible. There were people, they would get there stop. Some of them even take volts, which is what they use here instead of Uber, they get dropped off. And then they're walking, women with babies on the front of them. People with pets, elderly women, people with toddlers and children and they're getting ready to walk 30 miles, I find it hard to describe sort of what we saw. And I think the numbers coming out of the U.N. are low from what we've seen at that border and others throughout the day. So that's what we saw.

Then when we finally decided OK, we're going to turn around and try a different border. We turned around and there was a sort of a place to stop. We went in, and I ran into a woman in the bathroom. Her English was absolutely perfect. We were talking, she was there with her two children. She and her husband, Pamela, it's been the past couple of days at that border to cross. When they got there, they of course, they knew about the martial law.

They knew that he was in the range. But he had worked papers in Poland. So they thought he would be able to cross. He was denied that. So the whole family turned around. And she just started weeping, speaking to me. And I have to say, these are the emotional scenes. And I think that there isn't a person here covering the story who hasn't felt very emotional, seeing these people fleeing their homes and going to maybe in some cases, family, but in others, they don't know where they're going.

And they're just trying to get out and they're sitting in those cars, if they're lucky, and they're walking, and they're spending days and they're out sleeping right now, in this extremely cold weather.

BROWN: I mean, it's just hard to even comprehend, Erin. And you did a beautiful job describing what you have witnessed. I just am thinking of that image that you said of mothers holding their babies and walking 30 miles a road to uncertainty not knowing what lies ahead, perhaps leaving behind a husband, a father to fight in Ukraine. It is just unbelievable what is taking place right now in the humanitarian crisis.

You are close to the hungry border. Tell us more about what it is like where you are right now, Erin?

BURNETT: So what happened was, Pamela, to get here, it took another 16, 17 hours. And we pass various border crossings. We also, you know, one checkpoint alone took us over six hours because there's military checkpoints in the towns, right? Men are building up concrete. They're putting big piles of tires, presumably in case they need to burn them to stop a Russian invasion. So you have that and just lines and lines of people, all of them trying to head for the borders.

And right now, we went by the Polish borders, Slovakia border. And now we're here at the Hungary border, which is actually right behind me about a kilometer and we're going across it after this. But I will say this and I think it's really important. The Polish border is a crisis right now and they have opened it up. They said you don't need papers, passports. It's not that they aren't welcoming. It's that they cannot handle the

volume of people. The sheer hordes of humanity are coming for these borders. This border we're at right now is much more remote, Pamela. It's harder to get to. And it is by far, it appears to be the easiest border. It took us 20 hours to get here. But when we talk about what people can do, Hungary, of course, used to have visas for Ukrainians who want to come in. They've waived that, they said you just need a passport.

[22:20:10]

But there's more that can be done to raise awareness that people know they can come here, so that you can get people to these borders because they're remote. And if you don't have a car, it's hard to get to them. And there are just things that can be done to try to alleviate this pressure and get people out of this country more quickly. Because on the inside, you feel the palpable fear and a palpable crisis building that people are not getting out who needs to get out.

BROWN: That's just frightening. And this comes of course, what you just laid out comes as the government and Ukraine is warning of an imminent Russian assault on the capital city. There people are desperate, they want to get out. Erin Burnett, thank you very much for bringing us the latest excellent reporting there from the Ukrainian- Hungarian border.

BURNETT: Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: It is a tense early morning in Kyiv a tense tonight for those here in the U.S. with loved ones still back in Ukraine. I'll talk with two Ukrainian Americans about what it has been like to watch their nation fight back against the Russians? Up next.

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[22:25:59]

BROWN: Protesters are taking to the streets in cities around the world, crying out against Russia's invasion of Ukraine. This is Tel Aviv and in Brussels protesters chanted their demands for peace outside the Russian embassy.

Across India, students gathered calling for Russia to leave Ukraine.

And in D.C. protesters congregated again today in front of the White House in solidarity with Ukrainians. Now, to CNN's Polo Sandoval and pro-Ukrainian demonstrations in New York City.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, good evening to you. It was another day for Ukrainian-Americans anxiously watching the events taking place just half a world away, many of them lead back out onto the streets and sidewalks in peaceful demonstration and rallies including one that we saw here at Times Square take place earlier today, their message really two-fold. One standing in solidarity with the people in Ukraine.

And another one of those messages is to really calling on not only the United States, but other Western nations to do more to try to restore peace in Ukraine and the sea of yellow and blue flags we met Olga Yarigal earlier today, a young mother who fled Ukrainians in Ukraine's capital city during the initial Russian invasion in 2014. She participated in this demonstration took place today, here's why.

OLGA YARIGAL, FLED UKRAINE IN 2014: I think that the whole world right now needs to unite. Because this is -- the history always repeats. And now the time to stop. It was the same thing when the Second World War started. But now is the time to say no and to stop one person who keeps in fear the whole world.

SANDOVAL: It's something that was also quite notable during today's demonstration here in New York City was in that -- in those voices were also -- the voices of Russian Americans, including 131 year old New Yorker who was originally born in St. Petersburg, Russia, who also participated in today's pro-Ukrainian demonstration here saying that it's certainly not lost on him that there are so many of his fellow Russians who have already been detained and arrested in Moscow for doing exactly what he did today, here in New York City.

BROWN: Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

Unbelievably tense hours tonight in Kyiv, as massive explosions rock the Ukrainian capital. These are especially harrowing scenes for expat Ukrainians here in America watching war play out in the streets and cities, they know endangering people they love.

Joining me tonight is Iryna Mazur, the Honorary Consul of Ukraine in Philadelphia and Roman Petyk is Board Chair for the Ukrainian self- reliance, Federal Credit Union. Thank you for making time for us tonight. I must ask both of you. First to you, Iryna, do you have loved ones in danger tonight?

IRYNA MAZUR, HONORARY CONSUL OF UKRAINE IN PHILADELPHIA: My family are -- my family members are in Ukraine. My close friends are in Ukraine. I'm in constant communication with them. But my heart and hearts of many Ukrainian Americans are broken for the last four days. So our hearts are bleeding for Ukraine. Yes, I am very worried about my family. I cannot disclose their location at this point. But I really pray that this war will end soon.

BROWN: Roman, how about you?

ROMAN PETYK, BOARD CHAIR, UKRAINIAN SELF-RELIANCE FEDERAL CREDIT UNION: Oh, Pamela, I have family, both in Kyiv and in a city to the south of Lviv in the western part of Ukraine. I was in touch with them a couple of days ago. They were determined to stay. Fortunately, I have one cousin's son whose wife is eight months pregnant and they also have a five year old daughter. So they are very, very concerned. And we are with them. So this is a very difficult time for Ukrainian Americans who say still have family.

[22:30:00] But even without family just knowing what we've been, how we've been raised as people who really appreciate our Ukrainian heritage. This is very, very difficult to watch.

BROWN: Roman, you said, your family decided to stay there. Why so?

PETYK: Well, I think they feel that this is their place, this is where they need to be, so that they're able to defend their country. You know, it's as if someone were to ask you, well, why would you -- why would you stay in your hometown, when you're being attacked? Just there's really not, not much of an option unless, particularly for the men and the men are prepared to fight.

And we've seen that. We've seen that in the coverage. You know, there are volunteers who have, you know, either retired from the military or are being trained and this is -- it's truly remarkable to see that level of engagement in a country that for many years, people thought was oh, deeply divided between loyalty to Russia, and Ukraine. While you're not seeing that. This is a country where Ukrainians really treasure their independence, they treasure their unique culture. And that's why people stay.

BROWN: We've all been struck by the footage of Ukrainian citizens taking up arms and standing in front of Russian tanks. Iryna, what does it feel like for you to see your fellow Ukrainians fighting back like this?

MAZUR: I'm proud for Ukrainian nation. I am -- my office is bombarded with phone calls. It was from Ukraine -- from Ukrainian community because U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents who reside in the United States, they extremely scared for their family members. But I'm proud how brave is Ukrainian nation, because Ukrainians are defending their country for the last eight years.

But last four days, they just unbelievable seeing men, women, older people, regrouping, forming in the self-defense unit, staying calm, staying organized, there is no load and go on the streets. As Roman said, I didn't -- for example, I did not hear a single time, I didn't have a single request to me asking how the male can leave.

Actually, could hear that I send my family to Western Ukraine. But I will stay in Kyiv and I will defend my capital. That's how Ukrainian guys are defending their capital, their country. I did not actually hear any single time somebody complaining to me. People are resolved to defend their country and I'm proud of them.

BROWN: And President Zelensky, for his part. He has been putting out these videos vowing to defend his country that they have gone viral. Roman, what do you make of his -- go ahead?

PETYK: Yes, Pamela?

MAZUR: President Zelensky was offered to leave of Kyiv, but he refuse, he and his family, his children. They are as an example, they're staying in Ukraine, was Ukrainian nation. So this is extreme, extreme showcase of bravery, of people's willingness to give everything for their freedom, for their pursuit of democracy for everything what they are dreaming for centuries. They just want to be free. And this is a very basic desire. They want to have their independence.

BROWN: Do you think, Roman, that he has been effective in raising the morale of Ukrainians? Do you think that that is part of why we're seeing so much of this will, to fight so much defiance among the Ukrainians against the Russians?

PETYK: Well, I think that President Zelensky is probably a highly unlikely hero, but he's done a magnificent job in withstanding an awful lot of pressure from Russia. And I think he has in fact contributed to the high level of morale that you see. But I think even before that, Ukrainians had really decided that they needed to cast their luck with the West. And this is a nation that made that decision after they were able to expel a larcenous thug by the name of Yanukovych as president in 2013 and 2014 through the Revolution of Dignity protests.

So President Zelensky has done an amazing job, particularly given what people expected from him as a former television actor and a novice politician. He deserves enormous credit for having the strength and the stamina to withstand this. I have enormous admiration for him.

[22:35:03]

BROWN: I think a lot of us do. Roman, Iryna, thank you.

MAZUR: Thank you.

PETYK: Thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: Best of luck to your families in Ukraine. Thank you so much.

Well, there are new concerns tonight that the war in Ukraine could spark a broader cyber war. Glenn Gerstell, worked with the National Security Agency and I'll ask him what Americans should be on the lookout for? That's next.

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(UKRAINIAN SINGING NATIONAL ANTHEM)

BROWN: These are Ukrainian singing their national anthem while huddled in a shelter in Lviv. So many sense of resilience playing out like this one as Russia's assault enters another day.

And as Russia ramps up cyberattacks on Ukraine to support the invasion governments on both sides of the conflict are worried the situation could spread to other countries and sparking all our cyber war.

[22:40:04]

Joining me now to discuss this is Glenn Gerstell he was General Counsel for the National Security Agency and is now Senior Advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. So Glenn, what is the risk of a Russian cyberattack in the U.S.? GLENN GERSTELL, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: Well, in terms of the risk of cyber retaliation, it sort of sounds like the spring is coiled about as tightly as possible right now. We've just increased sanctions today alone. We've -- as we've just heard, some two Russian banks or several Russian banks were kicked out of the SWIFT network, was severe consequences for them.

And today, also, the Department of Homeland Security, and the FBI taking this risk very seriously issued another in a series of warnings, but this one was very specific about a type of malware that's been seen in Ukraine affecting their computers, they're wiping out data. And the risk is that that's going to occur here. Three, things we need to think about are, one, what is the technical capability of Russia to launch us a destructive cyberattack against us?

We know the answer to that. And that's clearly yes. What are our vulnerabilities? Are we vulnerable? Again, we know the answer to that. Again, clearly, yes. We see all of our cyber vulnerabilities every day in the newspapers about ransomware attacks and data breaches. And then the third is what is the risk that Vladimir Putin is going to calculate, to take those capabilities and exploit those vulnerabilities against us? And how does he see that risk reward ratio? That's the question?

BROWN: And if you look, just be a little more specific, because Russia has enormous capabilities to harm the United States on the cyber front, if it wanted to, if you could go a little bit more into detail about what that concern is, I don't want to be an alarmist here. But I also want to be able, you know, to be prepared about what could happen.

GERSTELL: So it's true. When I was at the National Security Agency, we regarded Russia and particularly their military intelligence operations and their cyber offense capabilities as a near equal is almost appear, maybe they aren't, but that's how we had to think of them in terms of being defensive about it. So we know they have that capability.

Exactly what they could do in the United States is what we've seen them do elsewhere. They turn off electric grids as they did in the Ukraine, shut down water supplies affect financial transactions. So we know we have that capability. Would they do that here in the United States? It seems unlikely. Why do I say that? Because the upside for Vladimir Putin seems limited, it's not going to get him all that much more strategically.

The downside, it will -- is that it will force the United States and NATO to then take some serious retaliatory action against Vladimir Putin. And I don't mean just sanctions, I mean, something military or something offensive, it's very hard to see where that ends and how that ends. But that's equally a risk for Putin. I don't see what he gets out of it.

On the other hand, if he were to simply tell the ransomware gangs inside Russia, OK, guys go at it. Or tell the Russian military intelligence unit, the GRU go after the defense contractors, steal as many secrets as you can, try to gum up their networks and disguise it as ransomware. Then Putin will just say, I don't know, it was those ransomware gangs, it wasn't me.

BROWN: Yes, we've seen that happen time and time again, in the U.S. How concerned are you, though, given everything you just laid out about an all-out cyber war breaking out?

GERSTELL: I don't really see that. But again, it's -- it would be such a devastating consequence that we need to prepare for it as you would in any really bad situation that you want to be prepared for, even though the risk of it is low. I don't think we're going to see a full- fledged, full out cyber war between the United States and Russia. We might not even see one between Russia and Ukraine.

We're certainly seeing very, very active cyber offense on the part of Russia, coupled with a disinformation campaign against Ukraine. But why aren't they going full out against Ukraine? Why are they trying to knock off everything? Why aren't they trying to close off electric grids using their cyber offensive capability? I don't think it's because they don't have the capability.

I think it's because they've made a strategic decision that they don't want to completely destroy a country because they're counting on occupying it. So they hope and once they do that they don't want an economy and ruins a Ukraine. That's it, and with the citizens enraging or even more inflamed than they are in a country that's completely dysfunctional. That's not going to look good for Putin.

BROWN: Yeah, that makes sense. And that's really concerning when you look ahead, you say OK, well, they could be doing so much more that they're not doing. And that rationale makes sense that they want to occupy Ukraine.

GERSTELL: Potentially.

BROWN: Potentially. So, they don't want to create a more chaotic situation. I want to ask you about this news this morning. The infamous hacking group Anonymous claimed responsibility for recent outages on government Russian sites, what do you make of this?

GERSTELL: So Anonymous has, over the years had various targets for political reasons sometimes they've been something that the United States is in favor of and sometimes against.

[22:45:07]

In this case they're clearly aligning themselves with Ukraine and trying to at least according their public announcements, take action against Russian websites. That will clearly embarrass Putin and cause stir up some of the citizens in Russia to wonder, if this really is a good idea, is Vladimir Putin leading us down the right path. And that's clearly Anonymous' goal in this regard, whether it's really going to be successful is, too hard to say because it's just it's just a small step, but it will throw some sand in the gears, so to speak.

BROWN: All right, Glenn Gerstell, thanks so much.

GERSTELL: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Great having you on set and hearing your perspective on this. A lot of people are wondering what's going to happen on the cyber front. So you really helped us better understand the current landscape.

GERSTELL: Thank you, the pictures oblique. Thank you.

BROWN: Well, while tensions between Russia, the U.S. hit new highs here on Earth, Russians and Americans are still working closely on the International Space Station. An update on the state of that partnership, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:50:19]

BROWN: Fallout from Russia's invasion of Ukraine is threatening the partnership between the U.S. and Russia in space.

CNN's Space and Defense Correspondent Kristin Fisher walks us through the possible impact.

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Right now there are four U.S. astronauts, two Russian cosmonauts and one German astronaut, all living and working together on board the International Space Station. But shortly after President Biden announced these new sanctions on Russia and specifically on Russia's Space Sector and Russia's Space Program, the head of Roscosmos, Russia's Space Agency, a man by the name of Dmitry Rogozin said that those new sanctions have the potential to destroy this cooperation and partnership between the U.S. and Russia at the International Space Station.

Essentially, the way this works is that the space station is divided into two sections, the U.S. section and the Russia section and you can't just pull them apart. The U.S. section provides all the electricity and the Russian module and section provides all of the propulsion, it has the engines which keep the space station in the right orbit, essentially in the right place in space.

And so yesterday, after President Biden announced these new sanctions, Dmitry Rogozin threaten this on Twitter. He says, "if you block cooperation with us, who will save the International Space Station from an uncontrolled deorbit and fall into the United States or Europe?" There is also the possibility of this 500 tones structure falling on India or China, do you want to threaten them with such a prospect?

The ISS does not fly over Russia. Therefore, all the risks are yours. Are you ready for them? So a very strongly worded statement from Dmitry Rogozin but he's known for this kind of bluster, if you will. He said very similar things back in 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea, and he was actually personally sanctioned during that time. So it remains very unclear if this is just words, or if there is something more to these threats. But everybody at NASA and certainly NASA's leadership, they are hoping

for the best and they say that this cooperation continues. They said in a statement that NASA is continue working with all of our international partners, including Roscosmos for the ongoing safe operations of the International Space Station. The new export control measures will allow -- will continue to allow U.S.-Russia civil space cooperation.

So NASA, certainly hoping for the best here. But without a doubt, this partnership between the U.S. and Russia at the space station is being tested right now like never before. Kristin Fisher, CNN, Washington.

BROWN: And violence in Ukraine is pushing 1000s of innocent people out of their homes and forcing them to leave loved ones behind.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we are afraid. My husband is still there. Real fight even if Europe doesn't help us.

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BROWN: Hear from some of these new refugees in their own words, next.

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[22:57:42]

BROWN: Thousands of Ukrainians are trying to get to safety as the violence ramps up in Ukraine. Roads and train stations have been swamped with people desperately seeking a safe place to go. The latest count puts the number of people who have fled and more than 120,000. Listen to some of them describe what they are going through.

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JULIANNA, REFUGEE FROM WESTERN UKRAINE: So we are afraid, my husband is still there. Real fight even if Europe doesn't help us.

VIKTORIYA HIERMAN, FLEEING UKRAINE: (through translation): It can be dangerous and our husbands were telling us maybe we shouldn't travel. They suggested we stay here for a bit until everything comes down. But we're mothers and our hearts are telling us to go home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most people they just didn't have the tickets. So they just stormed the train. I mean, it was so almost like a stampede. People were like trying to get inside no matter what. Nobody was actually checking tickets. Because I mean, obviously most people didn't have any tickets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was chaos?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was chaos. It was chaos. It was a lot of people like pushing around. And but I mean, people run to escape, to run for their lives. So I don't blame them. ARTEM ZONENKO, FAMILY IS FLEEING UKRAINE (through translation): My wife is already here. We're going to get some rest now because we haven't slept in almost two days. We are tired. My daughter is tired. Now, we will rest and think about what to do next. Now, it is necessary for my family to leave Ukraine. I will stay here. But the main thing is for my family to leave Ukraine and not feel the threat of attack.

TAMARA KULMAN, UKRAINIAN FROM ZHYTOMYR: We are here for a long time maybe six or seven hours already but it's crazy. It's crazy. And I think I don't know how to leave my native country. Actually I don't want to leave my native country but because of the invaders, I must leave it as fast as possible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I will go and fight and I'm ready to die for my event for future of my kind. My -- it's -- I will fight for democratic and freedom country for the law and it's my duty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Organizations from around the world are in Ukraine and neighboring countries to help people who need shelter, food, water and more. Find out how you can help humanitarian efforts in Ukraine at cnn.com/impact.