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City of Kyiv Holds Off Russian Invaders for a Fourth Day; Russian Invasion Drives Ukrainians to Poland; Interview with Representative Sara Jacobs (D-CA) about Russian Invasion of Ukraine; Tiny Town of Ukraine Repels Russian Power; Global Impact of Heavy Sanctions Against Russia for Invading Ukraine. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired February 27, 2022 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Now you're defending your city?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. I didn't think I would join this unit just two days ago.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): The world is behind the people of Ukraine. The Russian government is a pariah.

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is a time to be vocal and condemn the actions of President Putin.

OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): Very soon, the Russian leadership will feel what a high price they will have to pay.

ROMNEY: And that's what we're seeing, a small, evil, feral-eyed man who is trying to shape the world in the image where once again Russia would be an empire and that's not going to happen.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

It is 4:00 a.m. in Ukraine's capital and a weary civilian population is spending a fourth night bracing for a full Russian attack. This as new cause for concern, these satellite images showing a Russian military convoy stretching three miles long on a road that goes to Kyiv. According to the technology company MAXAR, the convoy includes tanks, artillery and infantry vehicles.

And here is a quick snapshot of this crisis. There are so many fast- moving developments, but here it is in a nutshell. On Ukraine's southern coast, the city of Berdyansk has fallen. That is a population of 100,000 and a small naval base. A senior U.S. Defense official says Russia has deployed about two-thirds of the combat power it has stacked along Ukraine's border and has fired more than 320 missiles. Ukraine says more than 350 civilians have been killed, including 14

children. And nearly 1700 civilians injured. That includes 116 children.

Some of the fiercest fighting is in Ukraine's second largest city, but it is also giving inspiration to the Ukrainian people. A Ukrainian commander says dozens of Russian soldiers surrendered there, complaining of fuel shortages and low morale.

And we also saw incredible video from the outskirts of Kyiv where Ukrainian forces destroyed Russian armored personnel carriers and other vehicles. Kyiv is very much on war footing right now. Its streets are empty. Security is high. And a proud and defiant population awaits Russia's next move.

CNN's Alex Marquardt takes us on a tour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Ukraine's capital is bracing for the worst, checkpoints with armed forces, sandbags stacked in front of the mayor's office in central Kyiv.

(On-camera): There are no Russian forces in Kyiv right now according to the mayor but there have been battles against them and the mayor says that large groups of Russian saboteurs were destroyed overnight.

(Voice-over): In the physical heart of Ukraine's 2014 revolution, the Maidan, the streets are deserted.

(On-camera): And it was exactly here, eight years ago, that Ukrainian citizens rose up against a pro-Russian government, a pro-Russian president, and ousted him and that is something that President Putin has complained about for years. Now his own forces are descending on this city, encircling it in order to try to topple this government and replace the president with a puppet who would answer to President Putin.

(Voice-over): Now, four days into this Russian invasion, there is mounting evidence of Russia's attempt to encircle this city, fighting in every direction around, plumes of smoke marking the areas of the most intense fighting.

Living in this city these days is not for the faint-hearted. While we're out, right on cue, another deep boom breaks through the silence. Below the Maidan, in the tunnels of the city's metro which also act as bomb shelters, the arteries of the city are also deserted, a pinging only adding to the eeriness.

Kyiv has held strong for longer than some of the more dire predictions which saw it falling within 24 to 48 hours. Optimism has grown with the Russians' inability to take any real control here, but everyone knows it is far too soon for any confidence.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, Kyiv. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tonight, Putin's war in Ukraine is creating a new refugee crisis. The U.N. reports that nearly 400,000 people in Ukraine have fled since the invasion and many are heading to neighboring Poland.

CNN's Arwa Damon spoke to several of them as they waited to cross the border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Little hands clutched bigger ones that would give anything just to keep them safe.

[21:05:03]

Sleepy, tiny, cold faces and tired arms. The hum of voices you would expect from the number of people that are here. It doesn't exist. It's as if the shock and disbelief has brought with it an awed silence. It's mostly women and children here who have had to say goodbye to husbands, brothers, fathers. Men aged 18 to 60 are not permitted to leave.

(On-camera): How are you able to say goodbye to your father?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that it was the most awful thing to say.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was crying then.

DAMON (voice-over): And then there is the sheer hell of getting here. Walking for hours, waiting in some cases for days, out in the bitter cold. Hungry, thirsty. We meet Ashmal (PH) and his family. They fled Afghanistan last May, getting asylum in Ukraine. His 7-year-old daughter barely made it here.

(On-camera): Marwa? I'm Arwa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arwa? It's similar.

DAMON: Hi, Marwa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very, very cold. And my daughter become to shock, we're calling, she not answer. And finally, we tried to contact with the ambulance. We found the ambulance. The doctor comes. Just checking. And after that they gave us a chance.

DAMON: And you must have been (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, to go there first.

DAMON (voice-over): She clutches one of the donated stuffed animals, replacing a similar one she left behind. But who is going to give her the rest of her life back? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I don't know, unknown future.

DAMON (on-camera): Again?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again.

DAMON (voice-over): At least this time, unlike in years past, Europe is welcoming refugees.

There is a massive inhumane backlog on the Ukrainian side. But once finally here in Poland, an army of volunteers. At the train station, 7-year-old Maxim buries his face in his mother's legs. He's not used to the crowds, it's all scary and confusing.

(On-camera): They waited for two whole days. Your mother is in Kyiv?

(Voice-over): It's tearing her apart. But at least her husband who is not Ukrainian is out with her. For how do you say goodbye to the love of your life, the father of your children?

This woman is not the only one in tears. Others as well understandably not wanting to talk. We can't take it. It makes us cry too much, they say.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Przemysl, Poland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So much heartbreak and suffering. Thank you, Arwa.

Joining me now is retired Army Brigadier General Peter Zwack. He is a global fellow at the Wilson Center Kenan Institute and wrote "Swimming the Volga: A U.S. Army Officer's Experiences in Pre-Putin Russia."

Hi, General. Is there any scenario at this point where Putin would withdraw?

BRIG. GEN. PETER ZWACK (RET), U.S. ARMY: Good evening. The only scenario, and the Ukrainians are not going to do it, is if the Ukrainians were to lay down their arms. But they're not going to. In fact, the more I think about it, I think that Putin, regardless, would keep an occupying force. No, time is not on Putin's side, actually. He did not expect the -- Zelensky, the president, to stand up in the first 72 hours and galvanize Ukrainian people.

At the end of this, whatever happens, he's going to be their young modern George Washington in their history books. He's got a Ukrainian army that he underestimated. They're motivated. And I cannot emphasize how important motivation and morale matters. It's not endless, but the Ukrainians are in the fight, they have spirit, and we're reading about some Russian formations getting a bit wobbly, when they're encountering civilians trying to block them.

So Putin has to finish this. The Russians need to finish this. The longer it goes on, yes, it's going to be terrible for the Ukrainians, but it starts to bring stress not among just Russian forces. A lot of these forces are young Russian guys that are -- that have just been thrown into it. But it puts pressure on him at home.

[21:10:03]

The clock is ticking. We're reading reports, more and more protests, some dissent. So this is -- I worry that he's going to now going to go in and go all in, heavily, sort of old Soviet style really shock, artillery, that awful thermobaric air power, and that would be when it really gets gruesome.

BROWN: That is just such a frightening, frightening scenario. And on top of that concern, he has also announced that his nuclear and other deterrent forces are on high alert. Clearly this is not playing out the way he wanted to. And the question is, did he do that to try to flex some muscle, right, ahead of these talks tomorrow, or in just a few hours there, at the Belarusian border. But given the growing concern that his behavior has changed and sometimes seems pretty irrational, how dark of a development is this? How should we be viewing this?

ZWACK: Putin will occasionally -- has flexed in the past, in a big way in 2018. But just a week ago, it's almost like a gorilla thumping its chest. The problem is that the Russians -- Putin owns the other most lethal civilization-ending arsenal in the world. And he is -- I don't think he intends to use it, but he is trying to intimidate because a lot of the other things have not worked. And I believe it's actually, while frightening, it's a sign of weakness on the Russian side that he has to now throw out, brandish those weapons with all that that possibly could portend.

So I think they're under pressure. They're rattling the nuclear saber. And it's very, very dangerous for all the escalation things that we've talked about in the past.

BROWN: Right, and, you know, a lot of viewers have been writing in and they've been asking, why didn't NATO accept Ukraine to be part -- to join the 30 countries that are already a part of the Ukraine agreement, and therefore you could help more militarily? What would you say to those viewers who are wondering this? Do you think that the fact that Russia is a nuclear power, do you think that is a big reason why the U.S. and other Western allies aren't doing more militarily in Ukraine, despite the fact that Ukraine is not in NATO?

ZWACK: It's an important question, and first of all, I am a fervent NATO guy, and I have been my entire career. Here is the -- but it is very nuanced. First of all, we have to remember that NATO now is at 30 nations. And for Ukraine to come in, it's a consensus vote of 30 nations. And there are a number of reasons why, in the mechanical side, there's a belief that while worthy, Ukraine was not yet ready.

Plus at this time you have a -- it would be like waving a red matador's flag in front of a raging bull, who are the Russians. And that would give them some type of justification to preemptively go in there and crush the Ukrainians as now they are trying to do. So it's hard, because you bring in Ukraine, now you are committed to its full defense along the entire spectrum of conflict. And the other thing is, as well, I just don't -- I think that a lot of us just didn't think that at this point the Russians would have the temerity to go and do this.

So we are here. Timing wasn't right. And now we're in this. The Ukrainians are in this awful fight. And we and the allies and the world are trying to support economically, politically, diplomatically, societally, to put the pressure on the Russians you're seeing, because this is creating -- this is creating major problems for the Russians internally. And if the Ukrainians can hang out, can survive with this sort of almost anaconda effect of all these sanctions and measures, this may create problems in the Kremlin.

And again, the Russians -- Russian people don't want this. I know, I've been among the Russian people for over 30 years.

[21:15:03]

Truth in lending, I fundamentally like the Russian people and their culture. The regime is out of control and a menace. And we've got to just be steady. And I think at a certain point, it's going to create major problems internally for Russia. I'm just so sad that right now, Ukraine is paying this awful price.

BROWN: Brigadier General Peter Zwack, thank you.

And up next on this Sunday evening, Russia slapped with more and more sanctions, yet Putin's forces continue to put pressure on the Ukrainian capital.

Congresswoman Sara Jacobs is live next. And I want to know if she thinks America should be doing more to stop Putin in his tracks, and if so, how.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: "Stand with Ukraine, stop the war." A message Russian officials are trying to suppress. But messages of solidarity like these are spreading around the world. And some of the signs and images really stand out.

In Rome, a protester borrowed from the British with a sign that reads, "Keep calm and F you, Russia." In southern France signs that read in French, solidarity with the Ukrainians and don't let history repeat itself, with Putin depicted as Hitler. And in Berlin today, a message trying to remind Putin, it is not too late to turn back.

And standing up against war is not just for adults. So many children among the protesters this weekend holding up signs like we stand with Ukraine in Canada, stop Putin in Madrid, no war near the Russia embassy in Tel Aviv, and in Tokyo, hands off Ukraine, stop war. Around the world, a desperate push for peace.

[21:20:01]

These images here just some of the ways people are showing solidarity with Ukraine. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that I can't sleep because I am always thinking about my family. My family is not secure right now. And I can't stay at home and do nothing. I have two little kids. And what I can do is just paint a poster and come here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today we send a message for the mothers of Russian soldiers. You can stop this war.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now, Congresswoman Sara Jacobs of California. She is a Democrat on the Foreign Affairs Committee and visited Ukraine last month with a bipartisan group of lawmakers.

Hi, Congresswoman, thanks for your time tonight. So we have these brand-new satellite images showing a more than three-mile-long Russian military convoy that's on a roadway to Kyiv. How much of this do you think is a show of military force to try and get Ukrainians to retreat?

REP. SARA JACOBS (D-CA): You know, it's really hard to know what Putin is thinking and what he's trying to do. We have seen that the more that Putin makes pronouncements in the name of de-escalation, that the more we'll actually see escalation on the ground. That's been a tactic that he's been using.

We know that negotiations are potentially happening soon near the border with Belarus. But that we're continuing to see this kind of aggression and incursion by the Russian military. So it's a little bit hard to know what their strategy is right now. But I think the point is that Vladimir Putin has been surprised, as I think many of us have, by the sheer determination and fight of the Ukrainian military and the Ukrainian people to stand up for their democracy.

BROWN: Do you think the Biden administration is doing enough right now to try and stop Putin?

JACOBS: I think the Biden administration is taking the exact right tack. So what we want is to make Vladimir Putin change course, to change direction, to take a different path. And so it can't just be escalation, escalation, without anything on the other side. It can't just be throwing everything at the wall.

Now, it was clear that what we had been doing wasn't enough to get him to change course, which is why this new round of sanctions I believe was warranted. But the key now is to make sure that every time that we escalate sanctions or continue to apply pressure, we're working to create conditions and off-ramps so that Vladimir Putin can take another path.

He has to be willing to do so but we need to be continuing to have those opportunities for him to do it because the last thing we want is with him with his back against the wall where he feels like he has no other option but to double down and continue escalating. BROWN: So then do you think that the West should impose sanctions on

Russia's energy sector? So far that hasn't happened yet.

JACOBS: I know that that's a conversation that's ongoing. I think the key to all of this and what we've really seen the Biden administration do masterfully is make sure that our European allies and partners are in the lead. We're seeing the Europeans announce the first round of sanctions, every time with the U.S. following up behind them. And I think that's key because there's always been a question of what Europe will allow, what Europe will go along with.

And we don't want Putin to think that there's any opportunity for him to separately Europe from the United States. And so I think that the Biden administration has been really great at making sure that Europeans are in the lead here and taking their lead on these issues.

BROWN: I want to get your reaction to this exchange on CNN earlier today with U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas- Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR, STATE OF THE UNION: What about the no-fly zone, is that something that's on the table?

LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: The president has made clear that we're not going to put boots on the ground. We're not going to put American troops in danger so that means we're not going to put American troops in the air as well.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Do you agree with that decision?

JACOBS: I do. I understand the impulse for a no-fly zone. I think it's admirable that as we're seeing so many civilian casualties and humanitarian crises, that it's something that people feel like we want to do. And there are some instances and cases where no-fly zones are warranted and where they make sense. But in this case, the way no-fly zones work are that they aren't just announced. They have to be enforced.

So it would require putting either American or NATO planes in the air above Ukraine to deny Russian planes the ability to fly there. That would dramatically escalate the risk of nuclear war. And frankly, the thought of nuclear war is so horrible, I think we need to be doing everything we can to make sure we don't get closer to that risk because more civilians will die in a nuclear war than a no-fly zone would be able to save.

[21:25:07]

BROWN: So on that note, what do you make of Vladimir Putin putting nuclear weapons on high alert?

JACOBS: It's definitely scary and we're clearly at a higher risk of nuclear war than we've ever been in the past, at least my lifetime. But I also think it's why it's so important that we do this pressure correctly, that at every opportunity we provide these off-ramps, provide opportunities to de-escalate, because at the end of the day, this conflict ends two ways. It ends in a nuclear war or it ends in some sort of negotiation or some sort of off-ramp or Putin changing his course in some way.

And so we want to push for that second outcome. And how we do that is by being very strategic about how we're applying these pressures. We're also creating these conditions and off-ramps to try and to get de-escalation and get Putin an opportunity to change course.

BROWN: Right, I mean, he's going to have to save face in one way. We know he's not just going to capitulate and withdraw his troops and say, oh, we just couldn't do it.

I want to get to the viewer questions. I've gotten this question from a lot of different people watching the show. They're asking, and this is one viewer's framing of it, why isn't the U.S. doing more to help the Ukrainians? We get ourselves involved in any number of conflicts, skirmishes, and engagements. Why aren't we helping the people on the ground in Ukraine? These people clearly need military support and direct help.

I know you sort of talked a little bit about this earlier with the nuclear -- concern about nuclear war. But what would you say to viewers who are just wondering why more isn't being done?

JACOBS: I understand, I represent a proud military community in San Diego, and my constituents understand better than most the costs of war and the devastation it can have on civilian populations. It's why we're working on providing even more military assistance to the Ukrainian military. It's why we're working on humanitarian assistance to the Ukrainian people and working with our partners in Europe and ourselves to make sure that as refugees are fleeing out of Ukraine, that they have the support and resources that they need.

But I also think that this is actually a very valuable thing for us all as Americans to see the real costs of war, the civilian casualties that war causes, and that's true whether it's in Ukraine or whether it's in all other parts of the world where conflict happens. And it's why I have long been advocating for us to accept more refugees from these conflict-torn places and make sure that we're doing a better job on civilian casualties ourselves, and providing humanitarian assistance.

War is terrible. And I understand the impulse to want to do more. There are many ways we can do more that don't escalate the crisis further.

BROWN: You just answered the next viewer question about the U.S. obligation for these refugees.

Congresswoman Sara Jacobs, thank you very much.

JACOBS: Thank you. BROWN: Well, CNN is in a strategic city in southern Ukraine. Our

report on the fighting there, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:31:13]

BROWN: It is the fourth night that Ukraine is under siege, and clearly underestimated by its Russian attackers. As of now the capital city, Kyiv, is free and its people defiant. CNN crews have canvassed Ukraine, recording the plight of people who have had war thrust upon them.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh files this report from a strategic city in southern Ukraine, near the Black Sea.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Pam, Odessa is deeply edgy here. Light restrictions and a curfew, but we've spent the last 24 hours in Mykolaiv, a town also on the Black Sea coast, under deep threat, constant during last night, Russian shelling, and the real fear that the Russian forces around it will persist until they get some kind of grip on that town.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (voice-over): The bridge here hasn't been raised for as long as they can remember. But neither has the sleepy port town of Mykolaiv been invaded.

The clack-clack is likely exchanges with Russian paratroopers who we're told landed nearby. Locals struggling to keep up with their world here collapsing and soldiers edgy.

The fear here, Russian saboteurs like these two suspects, thrown to the ground by soldiers. Then the sirens go off. And it is back in the basement for mothers and cats.

Here the noise of what Russia would do to these towns in the name of subjugation and geopolitical gain. Police trying to turn lights off it seems in businesses that closed in a hurry. Life persisting caught between hoping this is short lived and wondering if it may go on forever.

Behind it all, in empty streets the fear they may be overrun. And whether each huge blast would be the decisive strike that lets Putin's troops enter. The shelling just went on and on.

The next morning we saw where it hit. It's likely a missile tore up these Ukrainian tanks, but nobody left feels broken.

(On-camera): How do you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good. Very good.

WALSH: Good. Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

WALSH: They tried to come into the town. He is saying the Russians tried to come in last night but the town of Mykolaiv beat them. And you can see what it looks like here. He is saying look around here, I'm asking how do you feel living here looking at all this. This is where you live, right? As I look at this, look at these windows that are blown out.

Yes, so the words of Russian ministers who have been saying that they are not going to hit civilian infrastructure here, he is repeating them back to me saying look, look at this, they say that they are not hitting civilian infrastructure, look at this damage around here.

(Voice-over): Putin's rockets may have shattered glass, but not dented the anger here. As they take stock, you have to ask yourself, why Moscow ever thought that these towns would gladly be occupied and what Russia's end goal is.

Tempers fray here. Blood has been spilled. But despite Russia's overwhelming firepower, they did not pass.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[21:35:03]

WALSH: Now, Pam, on Sunday the mayor of Mykolaiv called locals to form a circular defense of the city and to get Molotov cocktails. But I have to tell you, being there, it is extraordinary to try and begin to fathom quite what the Russian playbook is here, to consistently try, using heavy weapons, to burst into cities and then control them. Staggering to see the resistance against them, but also wonder what really is the Russian end game here -- Pam.

BROWN: Yes. It's such a good question. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you.

Pure barbarism from the Russian side. Vladimir Putin's mindset is a big worry among some people trying to understand his actions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is different. And this behavior is different than in the past. This all seems to me like in some respect he's gone off the rails.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I'll ask a former director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, if that's what he has noticed as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: New video tonight showing Ukrainian forces and with them armed civilians holding their ground against Russian invaders for a fourth day. Ukraine's military claiming to have carried out successful drone strikes.

[21:40:01]

And they say this footage shows the destruction of Russian military vehicles about 60 miles northwest of the capital city. Also incredible video from the outskirts of Kyiv where Ukrainian forces destroyed Russian armored personnel carriers and other vehicles. Train stations in Kyiv are overflowing with people, families, desperately trying to get anywhere that is safer.

And from Moscow through Europe and in the United States, crowds of people are going public with their support and their prayers for Ukraine. For 22 years, Vladimir Putin has been a thorn in the side of the White House and most of the free world. Crimea, cyberattacks, poisonings. Many have tried to figure out what Putin wants. But is there more to it?

Here is a recent tweet from Florida Senator Marco Rubio. "I wish I could share more but for now I can say it's pretty obvious to many that something is off with Putin. He has always been a killer but his problem now is different and significant. It would be a mistake to assume this Putin would react the same way he would have five years ago."

CNN national security analyst James Clapper is with me now. He was director of National Intelligence.

Clearly Senator Rubio is hinting at some intel on Putin's state of mind there. Do you agree from what you see, he's different that he was a few years ago?

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I do. And that's without benefit of any current inside baseball intelligence. Just watching Putin over many, many years, he's always been very cold, pragmatic, objective, and rational. And his behavior is different now. And that could be the result of a number of things. The 22 years he's been living in an ivory tower. He's a classic example of the emperor has no clothes.

It's pretty obvious no one in his circle is pushing back. He's had 30 years to stew over the grievances that the Soviet Union and Russia suffered, and this is all, you know, coming to a head. And the warning he issued about -- when he said if anyone interferes, it would incur consequences that have never been incurred in history. And that is the preface to this nuclear alert, raising nuclear readiness of the strategic nuclear forces.

You know, that's -- it's worrisome and it really bears watching. And all of this is heightened by the obvious frustration and the disappointing performance thus far of the vaunted Russian army. So I agree with Senator Rubio, without having the benefit of intelligence that he has access to.

BROWN: What exactly is different now? You said you can tell the differences. If you can be more precise on what to you is different now with Putin than a few years ago.

CLAPPER: Well, the rambling, disjointed speeches that he's made. He was always, I thought, pretty disciplined about what he would say. And the obvious -- and he was emotionless. Now we're seeing flashes of obvious anger. I mean, these are nuances, it's true. But for me, there's a significant difference in the way he has historically behaved.

BROWN: And yet here we are, dealing with someone, as you pointed out, in charge. One man, this man, in charge of nuclear weapons that he just put on high alert. What can the world do?

CLAPPER: Well, the -- what can the world do?

BROWN: Right, well, what did you want to say, and then yes, what should the U.S. do? What should we do in response to this?

CLAPPER: Well, I think the administration did exactly the right thing by not raising our readiness level for nuclear forces. And essentially not dignifying and responding to the threat that I think was at least implied in raising the readiness level of the Russian forces.

What's worrisome here, Pamela, is that the Russian military doctrine of thought on the use of military -- on the use of nuclear weapons. Their threshold has lowered somewhat, where they would consider using tactical nuclear weapons to make up for their conventional shortfalls. The Russian army in its current form is not what it was during the halcyon days of the Soviet Union.

[21:45:03]

It is a much lesser, smaller force than it was. So in the Soviet -- in the Russian mind, a Freudian slip there, in the Russian mind, the way to compensate for that at least intellectually is consider the use of tactical nuclear weapons. So all of these factors, at least for me, have sort of, you know, got the yellow flag up in terms of watching his continued behavior.

BROWN: Yellow flag, not yet red flag, want to note that. And on that note, I want to go on this viewer question. Could the Ukraine-Russia war cause a world war or even a nuclear war? I think that's the question that's on a lot of people's minds right now.

CLAPPER: Well, it could. I mean, I'll just be straight up blunt about it. I mean, certainly the likelihood of a nuclear war is greater now, as unthinkable as that is, than let's say a week ago. And the close proximity of NATO and NATO forces as this combat heats up, and I expect it to get worse and the Russians to get more brutal and to bring in their artillery, that, all of that just raises the prospect or the chances for a real confrontation.

Now, in the past, we've been pretty successful at being careful. And the interaction between the Russians and the U.S. and Syria is a case in point. And it's not been without challenges, but a frontal assault on another country like this in close proximity to a lot of NATO forces, and again, as they build up, as we reinforce NATO, I think does raise the prospect for an even worse confrontation.

BROWN: All right, on that very, very somber note, James Clapper, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

CLAPPER: So do I. Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: Well, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations says hitting Russia's energy sector with sanctions is not off the table. I'll ask energy expert Bob McNally what it would do to Russia's economy, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:50:33]

BROWN: Since Russia launched its attack, hundreds of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, thousands injured and hundreds of thousands have fled. But the Ukrainian people are showing amazing resilience in the face of such aggression.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINE (through translator): The last night in Ukraine was brutal. They are fighting against everyone. They are fighting against all living beings.

OKSANA MARKAROVA, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: We are ready for peace talks but we are defending the country at the moment.

WALSH: They say they're not hitting civilian structures, look at this damage around here.

(Voice-over): Putin's rockets may have shattered glass but not dented the anger here.

PSAKI: This is a time to be vocal and condemn the actions of President Putin.

PROTESTERS: U.S. support Ukraine. Save lives. (INAUDIBLE).

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We have been seeing Russians on the streets of Moscow, St. Petersburg and other cities. In fact about 26, 27 cities so far who've been showing up and protesting. They are very quickly usually detained and arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our leaders are not at all taking enough actions to help our Ukrainians who are our neighbors and our friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So far around 300,000 Ukrainians have come to the E.U. member states. And I am really impressed of the strong solidarity that E.U. citizens are showing towards the Ukrainians coming.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any estimations on how many refugees might be in the future?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, but I think we need to prepare for millions.

DAMON: Thirty-six to 48 hours. Walking and waiting out in the cold. The stories we're hearing about these overnights in these freezing temperatures with no food, no water, no bathroom, with little children, and then as they get closer to the actual border crossing from the shear panic and the emotional agony of it all, it ends up largely being a free for all.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So much these people are going through. Just a reminder, puts life in perspective, right? And if Ukrainians could speak to Vladimir Putin, what would they say? I am going to ask a Ukrainian filmmaker what her message would be.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:56:35]

BROWN: Massive crowds in the Czech Republic out in force to support Ukraine. Across the globe from Prague to Madrid to Washington, D.C. to St. Petersburg, Russia, anti-war protesters hit the streets to denounce the Russian invasion. And in Russia, anti-war demonstrations have gotten nearly 6,000 people arrested so far.

The global outpouring of support for the people of Ukraine standing up to Russia's invading force has been nothing short of remarkable. We have seen protests in cities all over the world, people standing up to make their voice heard. Ordinary citizens, as you see, lighting up social media with a call to action. Athletes and celebrities alike calling out Vladimir Putin for attacking a sovereign nation.

Last night "SNL" scrapped its usual cold open for this moving tribute.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(PERFORMANCE BY THE UKRAINIAN CHORUS DUMKA OF NEW YORK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Live from New York, it's Saturday Night.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That beautiful sound courtesy of the Ukrainian Chorus Dumka of New York.

Well, tonight trouble is brewing in the energy sector. Today BP said it would offload its nearly 20 percent stake in a Russian state-owned oil giant in response to the Ukraine invasion. And today the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. told CNN that sanctions on Russia's vital energy sector are still on the table.

Bob McNally is the president of Rapidan Energy and is a nonresident fellow at the Center on Global Energy Policy.

Hi, Bob, do you think the U.S. is doing enough to punish Russia on the energy front?

BOB MCNALLY, PRESIDENT, RAPIDAN ENERGY GROUP: You know, I think we are. We have to be very careful, though, when it comes to sanctioning Russia's oil and gas exports the way we did with Iran. Russia is a much bigger player in the global oil market and the global gas market. And so while we think about sanctioning their actual exports and their revenues, and that would hurt them really hard. 36 percent of their budget comes from oil and gas.

So it would be a gut punch. But we have to be careful about a boomerang affect back on our consumers because on the oil side, you know, it's a global oil market and pump prices in your hometown and my hometown follow the price of crude oil globally with about a three- week lag, and we're already at the highest level since 2014. So we have to be a little careful about how we do oil and gas exports. That should be done very carefully so as to not really make it worse for us.

BROWN: And crude is hovering around $100. These are prices we have not seen since 2014. What do you make of that?

MCNALLY: Well, you know, we are back to a fundamentally tight market. You know, supply and demand are in a tight balance. We are roaring out of COVID. Production has been slow to keep up. Inventories are low. So even if we didn't have this geopolitical risk premium, from the Ukraine crisis we'd still have pretty high oil prices, and they'd probably going to be going higher later this decade.

You know, Booms tend to follow busts in oil, and you get this wild sort of space mountain-like volatility in the oil prices. But you know what's adding to it right now is this geopolitical risk.

[22:00:00]