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U.N.: 500,000-Plus Refugees Have Fled Ukraine To Neighboring Nations; Pentagon Briefs Journalists On Russian Invasion Of Ukraine; Kirby: Russian Forces Have Not Brought Their Full Power To Bear Yet; White House Wants To "Reduce Rhetoric And Deescalate" After Putin Puts Russia's Nuclear Forces On High Alert; Zelensky Calls For Ukraine To Be Given Immediate E.U. Membership; 2 Russian Oligarchs Call For An End To Putin's War. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired February 28, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: So far, more than half a million refugees have fled Ukraine looking for safety. The U.N. secretary-general said this could be Europe's worst humanitarian and refugee crisis in decades.

Cameras capturing this emotional reunion at the Ukraine/Poland border after one of them safely arrived at a temporary camp in Poland.

And Scott McLean joins us.

Scott, you've spent a lot of time at the border. You were at the train station today. Tell us about what you saw.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If you're trying to leave the country, Anderson, there aren't a lot of great options.

Obviously, you could go by car but you might be stuck in line for 24 hours. You could go by foot but, if you have small children, you could be stuck outside in the frigid cold for 12-plus hours.

So for a lot of families, the best way to go is by train. So we saw families at Lviv train stations today. This is the furthest west most hub people can get out. Next stop is Poland.

A lot of people had the same idea. So what we saw today was, when we got there, there wasn't a train for Poland on the board but people were milling about, waiting for the train.

If there was one, then there was an announcement and everyone ran toward --

COOPER: Do people have tickets or are they just letting people on?

MCLEAN: Some people have tickets and they think that's the golden ticket that will get them on the train but it doesn't. Because they're not checking them.

The police were just prioritized women and children on to the train. And so there were a lot of people blocking the way, they made

everybody go downstairs underneath of the platform and you have to come up by the stairs.

And there were so many people blocking the way that police were grabbing women and children and trying to make way for them and pulling them up and throwing suitcases up top.

And I want to talk about one particular woman who had a small child, maybe 2 years old. And she managed to get him up from the stairwell. Somebody grabbed on him and she was pulled up as well.

And when she got to the top of the stairs, it was like one of the most overwhelming moments of her entire life.

And we captured it. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: How are you feeling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And the families have been ripped apart here. It is not people fighting on the front lines or in the cities defending the cities. It is women and children who are separated, who are -- have nowhere to go.

MCLEAN: And that particular woman, she actually told us that her older child and her elderly mother were back stuck down under the platform trying to get up as well.

And when you spoke to her, she said she wasn't prepared to leave without them. I didn't see her after the train left. So I assume they all left together.

But again, these are the hard choices that people need to make.

Most of the people left behind as well because Ukrainian men in general most of them are not allowed to leave the country, they are foreigners,

They're obviously frustrated, because women and children are being prioritized. Some said that, look, I just want to go home.

Other seems to be understanding and say, look, the kids obviously should get out before I do.

COOPER: What are the conditions on the trains? I've heard people are standing for hours on these trains.

MCLEAN: So when we came into the country from Poland, we took a train as well. And when we stopped for the border checks, there was a train going the

opposite direction. Our train was virtually empty and the other one was like the inside of a New York or London subway train at rush hour.

People standing in the aisles, people sitting on the floor, people smushed up against the doors, taking up any possible piece of space that they could. And they have to do that for probably seven or eight hours.

COOPER: Scott McLean, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

We crossed over the border from the Poland today. And as you cross over, once, you're in Ukrainian territory, the line of cars waiting to get out just stretches for miles and miles.

And, as Scott said, it could take more than 24 hours for people in cars to get through a checkpoint.

Let's go back to Victor now -- Victor?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Anderson, thank you.

And we have heard that more than 500,000 people have had to leave their country.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Let's go now to the Pentagon. John Kirby is giving an update.

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: -- acting under the secretary of defense for personal and readiness.

That following his 20 years of service as minority council, general counsel and staff director of the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he's currently serving as a senior fellow at the Institute for Defense Analysis.

Miss Despro (ph), who I think many of you know, previously served as undersecretary of the Air Force and prior to that, assistant secretary of the Air Force for financial management and the comptroller.

She was also the vice director of Joint Staff, J-8. She currently serves as a director on the board of Mercury Systems.

The whole leadership team looks forward to working with Mr. Levine and Miss Despro (ph) in their new roles as members of commission. We're grateful for their willingness to continue to serve the country in this capacity.

[14:35:05]

And we certainly look forward to the work, the good work that the commission will help us do in terms of our own programming and budgeting and execution.

So with that, we'll go to questions.

Lena?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thanks, John.

Two things. One, one of the things that the Russians said today was that they boosted their staff at some of their nuclear sites.

I'm wondering if there's anything that the Pentagon has seen regarding any changes in their nuclear posture at all?

And then, secondly, can you provide any assessment on the convey that is headed to Kyiv and what the security situation in Kyiv is to the best that you all could tell right now?

KIRBY: Yes, so on the nuclear question, I have nothing to confirm these reports that they've changed their staffing.

We've seen Mr. Putin's announcement and we believe it is as an unnecessary as it is escalatory. But we're reviewing and analyzing that announcement.

And I would only just tell you that as we continue to review and analyze and monitor, that Secretary Austin is comfortable with the strategic deterrent posture of the United States and our ability to defend our allies and our partners.

On the convey, I'm seen the images you're referring to on television just like you. We see them as well.

I can't speak to specifics about its makeup and the timeline and the schedule that they're on or what the ultimate destination is.

But clearly we continue to see Russian forces move on or try to move closer to move on Kyiv from the ground.

We still assess that they're outside of the city center and but what we know clearly that they have intentions with respect to Kyiv.

What we also have seen is Ukrainians resisting quite effectively around Kyiv and continuously. They have made it a tough slog for the Russians to move further south.

And as I think you've seen in reporting of your own, that the Russians have not only experienced a stiff and determined resistance by the Ukrainians, but logistics and sustainment problems of their own.

So I can't speak with specificity about the convey and what's in it and what their designs are. But it clearly appears to us, just anecdotally as a piece of their desire to continue to move on the capital.

Jen?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: John, what is your assessment of the Russian military? What have you learned about the Russian military from this last five days?

KIRBY: You know, I think it is too soon to have sweeping conclusions about the Russian military in day five. I would --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It didn't look very modern.

KIRBY: I would -- I would just say a couple of things. First of all, make no mistake, Mr. Putin still has at his disposal significant combat power.

He hasn't moved all of it into Ukraine. But he's moved a majority of it. He still has a lot that he hasn't moved into Ukraine.

It's combined arms. And it is not insignificant, Jen.

Number two, yes, they have faced setbacks. And they have faced resistance.

You got to hand it to the Ukrainians, who have been fighting very hard for their country and making an impact and making a dent on Mr. Putin's abilities.

But they will learn, the Russians will learn from this. We expect that they'll -- that they're -- we haven't seen any -- any change in what we believe they're desire is to move in Ukraine.

And so, they have suffered setbacks. But I don't think we could just assume that they're going to stay set back, if you will. That they will try to work through the resistance and to work through the challenges on a logistics and sustainment front.

Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have you seen any new threat to Article 5 nations from Russian forces?

KIRBY: No. We have not.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Russia said it will now hold accountable any nation that supplies weapons to Ukraine that lead to the death of its own forces.

[14:40:01]

Is there a risk here that this could escalate if Russia decides to retaliate against nations that are providing these --

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY: Sorry, there has been a risk of escalation since before Mr. Putin decided to move in with tens of thousands of troops and tanks and mechanized forces and aircraft and ballistic missiles.

You want to talk about escalation, let's talk about escalation. Mr. Putin is escalating this and continues to do this.

We're standing by the Ukrainian armed forces, as we have, as other NATO allies have, and we're going to continue to find ways to help them defend themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: John, also today there was an announcement they're closing the states for the -- countries. Do you have anything to add?

KIRBY: I don't -- I don't have anything on that.

Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thanks, John.

Is DOD coordinating air defense assistance with partners? And can you comment on the E.U. offer to give Ukraine combat jets?

KIRBY: I can't combat on the E.U. offer. We've seen that. That is for the European Union to speak to.

But separate and distinct from that -- and I think this gets more at your first question -- we absolutely remain in close consultation and coordination with allies and partners about security assistance.

And I don't have a coordination mechanism to speak to like all of it is being funneled through a single point or that kind of thing.

But we continue to coordinate closely with allies and partners about the security assistance that the Ukrainians continue to get, not just from us, but from them as well.

Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So, you are providing Ukrainians with advanced weapons? They're not shy and revealing what types of weapons they're providing to Ukraine.

In the past, the U.S. has been reluctant in providing lethal weapon but we're talking about these things.

However, we're still talking anti-airborne, anti-armored but there's no specificity. Is this because of intelligence reasons or, as some might say, you don't want to provoke the Russians more?

I mean, what is the reason that it is open, the U.S. will support the Ukrainian forces, we're going to continue to do that, as you said, and other officials.

But what are the specific side of these weapons?

KIRBY: I don't think we've been inconsistent at all. I can't speak for what other nations are saying and doing. They could speak for the security assistance their providing the Ukrainians, which is welcome. And certainly encouraged.

We've been pretty consistent about, A, acknowledging we're doing it and going to continue to it.

B, giving you a sense of size and scale and scope of it in terms of the dollar figures applied to it.

And, C, been pretty I think transparent about what is generally in the package.

We're not going to give you an inventory list. We're not going to put that out the public.

Because, as I've said from this podium before, we don't think there's a value to operational security for the Ukrainians to have that out in the public, what the shopping list looks like on any given day. Just don't see a value to doing that.

I think we need to think about -- we should always think about operational security, certainly in this case on the Ukrainian's part. So we're doing that.

The kinds of material that are going to be in these security assistance packages going forward, think you've rightly said we've detailed.

Weapons that could support them on the ground as well as weapons that could support the airborne challenges that they have. And I think we feel comfortable going about that far.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And the images coming -- the satellite images that extended for 17 miles.

Do you believe that the Russian forces advancing on Kyiv are planning on basically encircling the city or storm Kyiv?

I mean, this type of troops and armaments, at this size, are you able to draw any conclusion from what you've seen?

KIRBY: I think the main conclusion we could draw gets to Lena's question. They continue to want to move on Kyiv. To capture Kyiv and take Kyiv.

And although we don't know everything about this convey, it is certainly in keeping with what we believe to be their intent with respect to the capital city.

How they're going to do that, whether it is encirclement, or bombardment, or street to street fighting, I just don't think we have that level of dexterity to give that you kind of detail in terms of Russian planning.

We don't have insights into anything they're planning on doing.

What we could talk about is what we're seeing now and that is what we're seeing now.

And we're also seeing Ukrainians put up a very stiff and determined resistance on their capital city. They have made it very difficult for the Russians to continue to move ahead.

[14:45:04]

We believe that the -- based on what we know of what their plans were, that they are behind schedule. That they have faced a stiffer resistance than they anticipated.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thank you.

Could you update us on any efforts at deconfliction? And have there been any close calls or specifically cases where there's need for a tactical deconfliction?

And how is -- are there calls that are being made from this building to the White House or the State Department or whatever it is to try to establish that?

KIRBY: I would say that there's no deconfliction mechanism in place right now.

But, but certainly, we understand the importance deconfliction, particularly now that the air space over Ukraine is contested and some of the air space butts up against NATO territory.

And we're exploring options for -- should there be a deconfliction mechanism, how would that look like and we're exploring those options. That's where we are right now.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When you say "we," you mean the Pentagon?

KIRBY: The Pentagon, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there a consideration of a larger NATO deconfliction, so somehow NATO would be the one --

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY: Sure, that could be part of the calculus. Again, we're exploring the options right now. We don't have concrete decisions.

And we don't have any indication from the Russians that they would also be interested in exploring those options. It is got to be a two- way street.

But we are having discussions about what that should look like, could look like. And certainly, one option could be that it is done inside of the alliance rather than a unilateral thing.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So at this point, this is -- Russia has shown no interest in establishing this --

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY: I think that is a safe bet. Yes, ma'am.

Carla? UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thank you.

Now that we've seen civilian targets that have been hit, has the U.S. considered a no-fly zone in Ukrainian air space?

KIRBY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To follow, can you tell us if there's any more requests for U.S. military assistance?

And give us an update on the troops that have deployed for this potential inclusion in the NATO response force. What are they doing right now?

KIRBY: There's no additional request for allied support that I'm tracking, Carla, but obviously this is a dynamic situation. We're in constant touch with our allies and partners and we'll continue to talk about that.

I would you not rule out in coming days additional repositioning in Europe as appropriate?

I don't have any updates for you on -- on the NATO response force or the troops that we have contributed.

The president spoke to the 7,000 that were going over there. They could be elements of our contribution to the very ready joint task force that the NATO is working on putting together.

But you do have to talk to -- to NATO and the alliance there in Brussels about their plans for that.

What I would you just tell you is that Secretary Austin has been clear from the beginning that, should it be activated, we want to make sure we're ready.

And that is why we've sent additional forces to Europe to be in that posture and to be ready should that be the requirement that comes from the alliance.

Again, we haven't gotten specific requirements laid out yet for us.

And as for the troops we've repositioned from the states unilaterally, they continue to work and train with the host nations as well as other NATO allies in -- wherever they are.

Whether it is in the Baltic region or whether it is down in the southeastern flank, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania. They continue to work and train with their host nations and allied partners.

And then the 82nd in Poland, they are also there as a reassurance force. But they are prepared to assist if needed with any evacuation assistance for Americans coming across the border.

There hasn't been a demand for that. They are postured to do that but there hasn't been a large outflow of American citizens from Ukraine. And those that have come, the vast majority have not needed any assistance from the United States military. They have made plans and know where they're going.

There's obviously good transportation available to them in Poland. OK?

Let me get --

COOPER: We're listening to Pentagon Spokesman John Kirby.

And joining me now is Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, and Geneal Wesley Clark.

Barbara, John Kirby being very careful, pointing out that, for all of the bravery and the tough fight that the Ukrainian forces have been putting up, pointing out that, in so many words, that the Russian forces have not brought their full power to bear as of yet.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: You're right, Anderson. And that is a very critical point right now that the U.S. is looking at.

I mean, the Ukrainians, for all of their bravery, the real question is, how long can they sustain this, again, some potential Russian onslaught. The concern, all over the country, but the capital of Kyiv.

[14:50:08]

Vladimir Putin wants Kyiv. He wants the capital. And by all accounts, he is very frustrated that his military hasn't been able to get there.

The key question is, how will he solve that problem? They can keep moving along on the roads. They're about, by some estimates, 15 miles outside the city to the north. But it's going to take them a while to get there to encircle the city.

Does he really want to wait that long? A big concern is he might unleash the full force to have Russian military, which he has not done so far.

There could be aerial bombing, long-range missile and artillery strikes. He could lay siege to the city, lay waste to it, and cause thousands of casualties with some kind of indiscriminate bombing and shelling.

This is a real worry right now.

Ukrainians doing hugely fantastic. There's no other way to reference it.

But a lot of worry about whether they will be able to keep it up and how mad Putin they be and what he wants to do about all this -- Anderson?

COOPER: General Clark, from a military strategy standpoint, how do the Russians -- what do you think they do in terms of trying to capture Kyiv and decapitate the leadership? GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think they are infiltrating

at night. Larger and larger sabotage parties to try to take out the objectives, to eliminate the officials and so forth.

They will eventually go after the communications, the power systems, the utilities so there's no heat in there. They will put the city into a humanitarian crisis if necessary.

It will be hard to encircle Kyiv because the ground is too soft. They can't get their heavy equipment in a circle around it easily and still keep it within artillery range in the center of the city.

So it's a real logistics and movement problem for them.

And meanwhile, the Ukrainians are not sitting still or waiting for it. They are going out at night, during the day, and ambushing these columns as they are creeping forward.

You can't imagine how difficult this must be for these average Russian soldiers, Anderson, because they are in those vehicles 24, 36 hours on a road.

No refueling, no fuel. Sitting there falling asleep. In the meantime, being attacked from time to time.

So they are having a tough go of it. And the Ukrainians will make sure it's tougher.

We have to keep resupplying them, as Barbara said. That's the absolute key. They've got to have replenishment.

COOPER: General Wesley Clark, Barbara Starr, thank you.

Victor, day five of this conflict and the worse is yet to come.

BLACKWELL: Yes, it certainly is.

Anderson, thank you.

This afternoon, President Biden spoke with U.S. allies to discuss next steps. The White House wants to reduce the rhetoric and deescalate.

Russia's Vladmir Putin has ordered his country's nuclear forces be placed on high alert.

Today, Ukraine received support from Switzerland. The country announced it will not remain neutral. Instead, it's now in favor of adopting sanctions against Russia.

John Herbst is the former ambassador to Ukraine. He's the senior director for the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center.

Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time.

I want to start with this, nuclear resources on high alert. We heard from the State Department their view of that order from Putin. Here is what they said just minutes ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NED PRICE, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We share the opinion with our partners and allies around the world that this provocative rhetoric, more than being unnecessary, it is dangerous.

It adds to the risk of miscalculation. It should be avoided.

We are assessing President Putin's directive at this time. As I think you have heard us say, we see no reason to change our own alert levels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: General Clark said this is a diplomatic play. Are you convinced this is just a diplomatic play, the nuclear forces on high alert?

JOHN HERBST, SENIOR DIRECTOR, ATLANTIC COUNCIL EURASIA CENTER & FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Putin has readily threatened different nations with his nuclear capacity. It becomes annoying. Either this is a diplomatic play or Putin is highly, highly unstable.

I think the administration is response is too soft. I think they need to call him out as proposing something outrageous. And point out he's not the only nuclear superpower.

That would require us to change our status, like he has. It would make it clear we're not about to be intimidated. That's what he's trying to do, intimidate us.

[14:54:58]

BLACKWELL: OK. Let me ask you about the request from Ukraine to get immediate membership to the European Union.

How would that, if granted, change this war, change the consequences for Putin and Russia and aid for Ukraine?

HERBST: Well, it's important to understand that Putin began this war in Ukraine not because of NATO but because Ukraine was close to reaching a trade agreement with the E.U.

I think it's very smart for Zelensky to make that request. Because he's seen a sharp turn in opinion toward Ukraine.

The E.U. will not say yes to it. But if they're smart, they will parry his request by saying, Ukraine is open, should have an open path to E.U. membership and it's something to take up in the future.

In the meantime, we condemn the invasion of Ukraine.

Putin needs to see that the West is highly united against his war on Ukraine and the people of Ukraine. BLACKWELL: We're hearing from two Russian billionaires who are calling

for an end to the war. A close ally of Putin. One says, "Now it will not be possible to sit it out as in 2014."

Do they -- does that class have any influence over Putin?

HERBST: Well, they have some influence but not to dissuade him from his current course.

Putin is in a vulnerable position. Polls show the people of Russia do not want to be at war with Ukraine.

He's having serious casualties in Ukraine. He's not winning. The sanctions are going to turn the Russian economy into a dust heap.

That will have a serious impact on the state of Russia and, over the long term, in Putin's abilities to wage war.

It's been very clear this is Putin's war. Even his security officials are deeply uncomfortable as evident during that national security meeting in Moscow when you saw how uncomfortable they were when they said yes to his plans.

We saw it yesterday when Putin met with the defense ministers and his top general and announced his clear and alert status, they too are uncomfortable.

It's the oligarch's call is some additional pressure on Putin, as are those demonstrations across the streets of Russia from one end of the country to another.

BLACKWELL: Former Ambassador John Herbst, thank you for your insight and perspective, sir.

HERBST: Thank you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: So are the U.S. sanctions starting to take a toll on the Russian committee?

Russia's stock market was closed today and will be shut tomorrow as well. Experts say this time is different. And we'll tell you why, ahead.

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