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Putin's State of Mind?; Russian Forces Shelling Ukrainian Cities. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 01, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:02]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Cisneros has the backing of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. In January, the FBI searched Cuellar'S home and a building housing his campaign office.

Thanks for joining us today on this busy news day.

Ana Cabrera and Anderson Cooper pick up our coverage right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world.

We are bringing you breaking news coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And I'm Anderson Cooper in Lviv, Western Ukraine.

Right now, we want to tell you what's going on.

Pausing or stalling, that's the question. A massive Russian military convoy more than 40 miles' long is on the outskirts of Ukrainian capital of Kyiv, but it has made little movement since yesterday. U.S. officials say that the Russians are facing fuel and sustainment problems, even showing signs of running out of food.

But this same official warns this pause could also mean they're thinking their strategy -- rethinking their strategy. Now, this comes as the Russian military warns it is preparing to hit even more government buildings and telling civilians to get out of the way.

Broadcasts in Ukraine are being attacked after airstrikes hit the area near a massive TV tower in Kyiv. We are also seeing some horrifying closed-circuit camera video of the moment a government building in Kharkiv in the east of the country was hit with a missile. At least 10 people were reported killed, including a child.

Still, another round of crucial talks between Ukraine and Russia are still set for tomorrow. The White House says that President Biden and Ukraine's President Zelensky spoke short time ago and the conversation lasted about 30 minutes.

CNN also just spoke with President Zelensky. We will get to that in a moment as well.

But, first, we want to go to Fred Pleitgen, is -- he is near Belgorod in Russia, very close along the eastern border with Ukraine. Alex Marquardt is in Kyiv -- or is near Kyiv.

So, Alex, what are you seeing?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it's clear now that Russia is stepping up their assault, not just on Kyiv, but on communications and information here in Ukraine.

I mean, observers, experts, officials have long wondered why Russia didn't make more of an effort earlier to black out communications and better control the information war, which is clear they have now lost. And so it looks like now they might -- may be trying to make up for lost time.

We have this attack this afternoon on the Kyiv TV tower. That's about three miles from the city center. Five people were killed in that strike. I believe we have video of the moment of the impact. So it does look like this assault, military assault by Russia on the communications of Ukraine is under way.

We had this stark warning by the Ministry of Defense in Russia, giving us what the targets were going to be. And among them were the SBU locations, so locations of Ukraine's security service, the Russian Ministry of Defense saying that they are looking to suppress information attacks against Russia.

So there you have Russia admitting, essentially, that they are losing this information war. So you have these attacks that have happened and attacks that have been announced from the air. At the same time, on the ground, Anderson, that large convoy that you mentioned, which we initially thought was about three miles' long, and now appears to be about 40 miles' or 60 kilometers' long, just to the north of Kyiv, and getting closer and closer with artillery, with tanks, armored vehicles, trucks, and troops.

What happens next is not clear. The defense minister for Ukraine says that the Russians are launching an information and psychological operation designed to break the resistance of Ukrainians. So, are we going to see a severe aerial assault on the capital followed by ground troops? We simply don't know right now.

But what is clear, again, is that they are stepping up their efforts against the Ukrainian capital, and the next few hours, could be extremely tough for Kyiv -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes.

Fred Pleitgen, want to talk to you now.

What troop movements are -- have you been seeing, especially as we're learning that this convoy appears to have stopped or stalled?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the troop movements certainly are one of the things that we have been keeping an eye on as well, as here close to the Kharkiv front.

And, of course, Anderson Kharkiv right now still seems to be really the toughest battle in this war and certainly one where also the Russians are taking a lot longer than they most probably thought to try and take that town. Kharkiv, of course, is right by the border with Russia, and so therefore would be a pretty easy battlefield for the Russians to resupply.

[13:05:01]

You had that cruise missile strike today on that administrative building in Kharkiv that once again underscores just how tough that battle is going on, the Ukrainians obviously saying that that is a crime. It was an administrative building in the center of town. Ten people were killed in that strike, also a lot of fighting apparently going on in Kharkiv as well.

But the resupply, that's something that we have also been watching. It certainly seems to be quite interesting from our vantage point as well around Belgorod. Again, we're right at the border. And the next big town on the other side is Kharkiv. We did see some large convoys going towards that area. It certainly seemed to us as though the Russians are trying to resupply their forces and also replenish their forces and bring new forces in as well.

But one of the things that we actually just picked up on, now that a defense official said that maybe some of those forces that are in that large convoy near Kyiv are having trouble even getting food, over the past couple of days, we have actually been seeing local people bring food and water to the last checkpoint before you get to that battlefield in Kharkiv.

And I didn't see it at all. It was actually our camerawoman, Claudia, also who kept telling me, "I think they're bringing it to the soldiers." And then at some point, we saw them load the food into a military vehicle and race toward that area of the front line.

Now, whether or not that means that they're having supply problems, whether or not people are just donating stuff is really something that we can't say from our vantage point, but it certainly does seem like something that could be a little more significant now that U.S. officials are saying that perhaps there are supply problems for the Russian military.

Of course, again, we have to point out, Anderson, the battlefield that we're talking about here in Kharkiv is one that should be fairly easy for the Russians to resupply. If they have a convoy that's well inside Ukrainian territory around Kyiv, certainly, that task probably would be a lot more difficult, Anderson.

COOPER: And just to be clear, you said that your camerawoman, Claudia, had seen -- it's Russian civilians giving Russian soldiers food?

PLEITGEN: Yes. Yes, bringing -- exactly. It was -- it's a column of cars bringing that to the last checkpoint before you would go into the battlefield towards Kharkiv...

COOPER: Right.

PLEITGEN: ... and just donating food, water, large stacks of water.

And, at some point, we saw that getting loaded into a Russian military vehicle, and that go into the direction of the front line. Of course, again, we always have to say we can't go beyond that checkpoint, so we don't know exactly what significance that has, whether or not there are shortages, or whether this is something they get on top of their rations.

But it's certainly something that could be seen over the past couple of days there, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Alex, Fred, appreciate it.

I want to bring in CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance, who is live near Kyiv.

Matthew, I know you just spoke in person with Ukrainian President Zelensky. We saw European Parliament members giving Zelensky a standing ovation after his very moving speech this morning. What did he have to say?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, I mean, he's obviously become a really kind of sort of iconic figure, I think, of Ukrainian resistance, given that his country is being attacked by Russia, and that the city in which he is taking shelter in right now, Kyiv, the capital, right here is under bombardment from Russian forces, who are massing on the outskirts of the city.

Just getting to the Ukrainian president is quite a trial. I mean, we had to go to a secret location. We were met by Ukrainian security forces. They put us into another car and drove us through the streets a little bit and off-loaded us into the basement of another building. And we walked down these dark corridors filled with sandbags, military forces in some strength there, heavily armed, before the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, eventually appeared.

And we spoke to him about a range of issues. Before that, though, he looked really tired. His eyes were red. He was unshaven. He looked very pale. He looked like he hadn't slept for a long time. He's clearly under a lot of pressure.

We spoke to him about a range of issues, including the requests that he has been making for no-fly zones from the United States to be imposed over this country to help them in their battle against Russia. It's something Joe Biden, the president, has been reluctant to do, because that would obviously bring U.S. forces and NATO forces into direct contact with the Russians, which is something they clearly want to avoid.

But I asked him whether he felt that this was time -- it was now time, given the situation, for NATO countries in the U.S. to review this idea of not giving military personnel, but only giving hardware.

And he said, look we're not trying to draw anybody into a conflict here. Ukraine will do the fighting, but -- and he said that Ukraine will fight stronger than anyone else, when it comes to this battle, but, on our own against Russia, we won't manage it.

And so he's calling for more support, more help, not necessarily troops on the ground. But he's also admitting there that, unless he gets more backing from the Western powers, he will not be able to overcome the enormous Russian forces that have marshaled against them.

[13:10:00]

He also spoke a range of other issues as well, not least the possibility for diplomacy to bring to an end this conflict. Take a listen to what Volodymyr Zelensky had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: You sent your delegation to meet the Russians for talks.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Yes.

CHANCE: Did anything substantial come out of that? Is there any hope, as the world watches for diplomacy?

ZELENSKY: They decided -- they decided to begin to speak about this situation.

And I wanted -- I really wanted -- and I asked them. So, you have to - speak -- first of all, everybody has to stop, stop fighting, and to go to that points from where it was beginning.

Yes, it began five, six -- today, six -- six days ago.

CHANCE: Yes.

ZELENSKY: I think there are principal things. You can do it.

And that is very important moment. If you will do these, and if those site is ready, it means that they are ready for the peace.

If they don't ready, it means that you're just -- just -- how...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wasting your time.

ZELENSKY: Wasting time.

CHANCE: And do you think you're wasting your time? Or do you think they're ready?

ZELENSKY: We will see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Speaking from his very fortified bunker there surrounded by military forces sandbags, deep underground, as Russian forces close in.

He also had a message for President Biden, saying in his State of the Union speech tonight he wants to hear the U.S. president talk about how the war in Ukraine is not just about the Ukraine battle, it's about freedom and democracy, and that's why Americans, he said, should care about it -- Anderson.

COOPER: And just briefly, Matthew, is it clear to you if these weapons that have now been promised by Germany, after long opposing sending any weapons to the battlefield, are now -- saying they're going to send weapons, Sweden sending weapons, all these countries now pledging more weapons, is it clear to you if any of that weaponry has actually arrived and in the hands of Ukrainian fighters in Kyiv?

CHANCE: I'm not sure.

But, obviously, it's a very urgent situation. But, I mean, certainly what we know is that the British and American weapons, the anti-tank missiles, the anti-aircraft missiles, the Stingers and the Javelins that have been sent from the United States, they have already been deployed on the battlefield.

And we have seen the evidence of that directly. I was at a column just yesterday of Russian armor that had been absolutely devastated by anti-tank missiles that had come from the United States and come from Britain as well. And so they are using those sophisticated Western missile systems and battlefield weapons to cause real pain on the ground to the Russians.

The problem with that, of course, is, it completely derails Russia's strategy of a sort of lightning strike to take the main population centers. And that's fine, because it gives the Russians a bloody nose. But it may make the Kremlin rethink its strategy, not back down, but double down on its military situation here.

And that's the big danger for Ukraine right now, that Russia will gather its strength and really hit the country hard.

COOPER: Yes.

Matthew Chance, extraordinary you got access to President Zelensky at this time.

Thank you -- now back to Ana.

CABRERA: Thank you all for your coverage. We will check back, Anderson, with you in a moment.

But two key questions right now I want to discuss: What is Russia's next move, and can Ukraine continue to defend itself?

I'm joined now by an expert in urban warfare.

Colonel John Spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute of West Point Academy. He's the co-director of The Urban Warfare Project.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Colonel, we're learning now that this apparently 40-mile Russian -- long Russian convoy that's headed to Ukraine has apparently stalled. There are signs that Russian troops are running out of food, possibly fuel. Is that surprising?

COL. JOHN SPENCER (RET.), MODERN WAR INSTITUTE: No, that's not surprising.

The Russian military has shown on multiple levels, both with their plan and with their -- what we call readiness or health of their forces, that they overreached in what they're trying to do. So that's why they haven't been able to go as fast as they wanted. They're overreaching how far they can go away from their logistical hubs, where all their supplies are.

It's great. I love seeing it, but it's ridiculous how poor they are performing, which is what we want.

CABRERA: So how can Ukrainians then take advantage of this?

Should they go on the offensive? Could they try to preemptively hit this convoy before the Russians are fully organized?

SPENCER: Yes, and I think they're -- absolutely, they're doing that. And we see that online.

And you just mentioned about the Javelins, all these longer range, if they're still as long a range, the TB2 drones, yes, they should go on the offense, as in hit that convoy, since we know it's the main assault, although they're trying to get through Kharkiv and bring other forces in to surround Kyiv.

But hit anything you can as far away as you can, but also be prepared to use the urban areas, which is their advantage. They have immense advantage, because they are the defenders.

[13:15:05]

CABRERA: And they have the courage. Ukrainians have the will, clearly.

But they don't have the numbers. They don't have the kinds of resources, the weaponry and so forth that the Russians have. The bombing in Kharkiv overnight that completely leveled that government building is just another example of what Ukraine is up against, right?

If you are the commander of Ukraine's forces right now, how do you organize then to fight back in this next phase?

SPENCER: Yes, that's a great question.

So if I was on the ground, based on the study of urban warfare, and all the historical examples on how a single city can be turned into a fortress, of course, what we call a defense in depth, I would plan all of that as far out as I can, especially with this aid coming in, with the Stingers and contest the air domain, hit this convoy as far out as you can.

But I'd have a huge part of my population, or my forces, my soldiers, and anybody willing to help, barricading and turning that city into a porcupine, a fortress to where, when and if Russia does make it there, there will be stopped at the gates, and they will have to fight this very vicious house-to-house fight, where it's called a meat grinder.

It's historic. Russia is not bringing -- although they're -- yes, they're superior in military technologies, they're superior in numbers, well, guess what? In the urban terrain, that doesn't matter. We call the urban train the great equalizer.

When you look at history, small amounts of enemy forces inside urban areas can delay an operation, delay losing, because, in this situation, as long as Kyiv doesn't lose, the Ukraine, the winning, because every moment, Putin loses political backing, he loses the logistical support.

They need to turn that city, every street, every alley, every window into a death trap. So, if I was on the ground, that's what I would be focusing a huge amount of my energy on is preparing to defend Kyiv.

CABRERA: What do you say to those people who are everyday Ukrainians who may be watching this?

Because I look at your Twitter feed, and you have really useful advice for everyday Ukrainians about how they can try to protect themselves, where to hide and types of weapons to sort of create. Talk to them right now. What can they do? What are they doing right? What can they do differently?

SPENCER: Yes, so if I could talk to them, the number one thing they need to do is get off the streets.

Russia is already -- is, their doctrine is to hit the cities with as much firepower, with rockets, artillery, everything. If they can be seen from the sky, then they're vulnerable. So, that's my number one. you got to get off the streets.

And if you have a weapon and you're on the street, the firepower, the viciousness of this is coming. They can decide where they're going to be inside the buildings, and pick the right buildings. A lot of those buildings are -- can be turned into battlefields. They're concrete, reinforced steel. Even when they're hit with the most modern bomb, they can withstand it.

So they have to decide on where they're going to be when this happens. Don't be on the streets.

Other things. Even if they don't want to take up arms, right -- and we don't want our civilians to have to fight. But, in this situation, they're fighting for their lives. I would start -- I would have them just building barriers, parking buses in the street, building every -- I mean, this is classic Battle of Berlin, Paris, building up everything you can in all the streets.

CABRERA: Yes.

SPENCER: Turn this place into a maze of hell.

CABRERA: John Spencer, thank you very much for providing your expertise and insights here. Thanks for the time.

Increasingly erratic, increasingly isolated, even keeping a very noticeable distance from his own top advisers. Look at this picture. CNN is learning that U.S. intelligence is making it a top priority to understand Putin's state of mind.

Plus, CNN is live on the Polish-Ukrainian border, where thousands of refugees, many of them women and children, are crossing to stay alive.

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[13:23:45]

CABRERA: U.S. intelligence officials have a clear, top priority, understanding Vladimir Putin's state of mind. They want to know how the Russian leader is faring and how his mind-set has been impacted by the tough response from around the world.

Longtime Putin watchers say his behavior has become increasingly erratic and irrational, a source familiar with recent intel reporting telling CNN: "Putin's decisions and statements don't seem to be making sense. For years, decades, Putin has acted according to a pretty specific template."

And with us now is CNN national security analyst Steve Hall. He is a former CIA chief of Russia operations.

Steve, how can anyone who is watching what's happening not think this is crazy? What do you think? Has Putin lost his mind? Or is this still the same Putin you remember?

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, he's not the Putin I remember.

I'm going to -- not being a psychological professional, I'm not going to diagnose him with losing his mind. He is acting somewhat differently, Ana. And I think a lot of people have been asking why. And now the intelligence community has been given a very tough task, which is to try to get inside his mind.

But, Ana, I really think the interesting question is why. And there's -- I think there's a good answer to it. I think the answer is -- yes, a lot of people have been speculating that there's a certain amount of being alone, in a bubble, some of that contributed to by COVID.

[13:25:05]

But, by the same token, I wonder whether or not he's wondering whether or not the oligarchs and other people who are in power around him are a little concerned about what he's doing. It's really nice to be an oligarch, to be a really rich guy in Russia, with a lot of money, until you can't access that money. And then you can't leave Russia, And you can't send your kids to foreign schools.

And it could be that they're growing less and less happy with him, not unlike what happened to Gorbachev in 1991, which ended up in a coup. You had people right underneath Gorbachev saying, look, the country is just not working. It's in a shambles. This is not what we signed up for. We need to get rid of this guy.

And I wonder whether that is, partially, at least, what might account for some of Putin's behavior.

CABRERA: Well, you do wonder also, if what he's doing is to try to throw people off.

U.S. officials are telling CNN that it's possible Putin strategy may well be to project instability, to try to push the U.S. and allies to just give him what he wants, for fear that he could do worse. Do you think that's what he's doing?

HALL: You know, it's possible, Ana, because, again, Vladimir Putin's mind is a labyrinth. And nobody gets in there, not even, I think, his closest supporters.

It's certainly not unlike Putin and his system, if you will, to engage in deceptive behaviors. But, by the same token, I think he's got to be careful -- or we have to be careful, actually, in attributing too much to that, because I think it would make him look weak.

And even though he might explain to his subalterns, look, I'm just doing this for propaganda purposes or for other reasons, he does have to worry about, OK, how is he perceived, not only by the West, but again, by those oligarchs around him and the Russian people themselves.

CABRERA: There's this striking picture we showed just before the break of Putin at a long table with his advisers way on the other end. It appears he won't let anyone close to him.

Steve, if this picture is worth 1,000 words, what does it tell you?

HALL: It just tells me the strangeness and the bizarre situation that we find ourselves in.

Normally, you see Putin commanding a table full of people, all of whom are very much on their toes, because they're worried about perhaps being called out, not unlike his intelligence chief was called out and publicly embarrassed a number of days ago. But if you looked at the face of those -- especially those two

military generals down at the end of the table, when he started talking about nuclear preparedness, it was almost like they were saying, wait a second, did somebody tell -- what is he saying? And it's -- the facial reactions in the body language are fascinating, and hopefully will provide a lot of grist for information for people who analyze these kinds of things.

CABRERA: Ukraine officials are now warning Russia is preparing to launch a large-scale information and psychological operation against Ukraine. And according to Ukraine's defense minister, Putin has planned to fabricate reports that Ukraine's military and political leadership have actually agreed to surrender to Russian forces.

What's your reaction to this strategy?

HALL: Now that, to me, Ana, sounds very much more like Vladimir Putin.

He's going to plant these doubts. He's going to plant these propaganda stories. It's all in that sort of bag of active measures that he has. We would refer to it as covert action, where you put this information out there, sort of psychological operations, in the hopes that they will have an impact.

So that makes a lot of sense, a lot more sense to me, frankly, than that perhaps he's portraying himself as somehow compromised or somehow troubled. The idea of trying to force resignations and force surrenders by Ukrainian leadership and the impact it would have on the troops and people fighting for Ukraine, I think that would be significant. It makes a lot of sense.

CABRERA: Steve Hall, I appreciate you very much. Thanks for joining us.

HALL: Sure.

CABRERA: They're tired, they're hungry, and they're racing to get away from Putin's brutal attacks.

CNN's Sara Sidner is live near the Ukrainian-Polish border, where hundreds of volunteers are gathering to help Ukrainian refugees -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're in Przemysl, Poland.

We are just a few kilometers away from the border with Ukraine. And this is the scene. It is a huge operation. And these aren't people who are brought in by the government. These are regular people from Poland who wanted to help their Ukrainian brothers and sisters.

We will have a live report coming up.

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