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Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta; Putin's State of Mind?; Russian Forces Shelling Ukrainian Cities. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 01, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Kitchen table issues and what voters want to hear about in terms of how their own lives can be improved. That's a general observation, that presidents talk about that.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Yes.

TAPPER: But he didn't seem -- look, I mean, if I were in charge of the world right now, if I were in charge of the Western world, I probably would be acting as if I had the weight of the world a little bit more on my shoulders, but I'm not the president of the United States.

This is somebody who is very familiar with foreign policy and, in many ways, I think, feels like he is qualified to handle this moment.

CABRERA: Jake Tapper, as always, good to have you here. Thank you for jumping on with us following your lunch with the president.

Make sure you join Jake and Anderson Cooper, along with Wolf Blitzer, Don Lemon, Dana Bash, Abby Phillip, and Pamela Brown, tonight for President Biden's first State of the Union address.

Our live coverage starts at 8:00 eastern here on CNN.

That's it for me. More breaking news right now with Alisyn and Victor.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

Deadly strikes are taking out some key facilities in Ukraine, as Russia intensifies its attacks. Today, a television tower in Ukraine's capital city, Kyiv, was hit. People were killed. And the Ministry of Internal Affairs says the broadcasts are off the air.

BLACKWELL: Russian military officials warn they are going to target more buildings in Kyiv, including Ukraine's state security agency and a main information and operations center.

They're urging Ukrainians near those buildings to leave. Heavy fighting continues in and around Ukraine second largest city, Kharkiv, according to a senior U.S. defense official. A Russian airstrike blew up a government building there, incinerating cars. Look at this. Ukraine's emergency services said that at least 10 people were killed and dozens wounded, including a child.

CAMEROTA: Anderson Cooper is with us.

He is live in Lviv. That's in Western Ukraine.

So, Anderson, Russian state media is reporting this second round of talks between Ukraine and Russia tomorrow. What do we know?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes, I mean, that would be the second time, obviously, that they met.

The meeting yesterday ended after some four hours of talks between Russian representatives and Ukrainian officials. The president of Ukraine, Zelensky, has expressed skepticism about what may come out of the talks tomorrow. But they are on schedule as of now. Ukraine's president has said he has little faith in negotiations, but he has to support any attempt at peace.

Zelensky did just speak with President Biden. The White House says that the two leaders talked for about 30 minutes in their conversation. President Zelensky tweeted that they discussed -- quote -- "American leadership on anti-Russian sanctions and defense assistance to Ukraine."

Our own Matthew Chance also spoke to President Zelensky.

I want to turn to Matthew. He is in Kyiv. He just interviewed Zelensky at his bunker.

So, Matthew, President Zelensky is getting worldwide admiration, obviously, for refusing to leave Kyiv.

What did he say to you?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we asked six or seven questions of him in that bunker in Central Kyiv, where he was wearing military fatigues and surrounded by military forces.

We spoke a little bit about his insistence that the United States impose no-fly zones, along with its NATO allies, above Ukraine, something President Biden's refused to do, because it would bring U.S. forces and NATO forces potentially in direct contact with the Russians.

And President Zelensky said, look we're not trying to draw anyone into this conflict,. Ukraine will be able to fight this. But if it does it alone, then it won't be able to manage up against Russia. I'm slightly paraphrasing him, but basically admitting that if it's just Ukraine against Russia, not going to work. He needs the backing, not just military backing, but other kind of backing as well, from the United States and other Western countries.

It's interesting that Russian media is talking about that second round of talks between the Russian and the Ukrainian side. I asked President Zelensky precisely about the possibility of there being a diplomatic solution because of these talks to this conflict. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: You sent your delegation to meet the Russians for talks.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Yes.

CHANCE: Did anything substantial come out of that? Is there any hope, as the world watches for diplomacy?

ZELENSKY: They decided -- they decided to begin to speak about this situation.

And I wanted -- I really wanted -- and I asked them. So, you have to speak -- first of all, everybody has to stop, stop fighting, and to go to that points from where it was beginning.

[14:05:11]

Yes, it began five, six -- today, six -- six days ago.

CHANCE: Yes.

ZELENSKY: I think there are principal things. You can do it.

And that is very important moment. If you will do these, and if those site is ready, it means that they are ready for the peace.

If they don't ready, it means that you're just -- just -- how...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wasting your time.

ZELENSKY: Wasting time.

CHANCE: And do you think you're wasting your time? Or do you think they're ready?

ZELENSKY: We will see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Well, President Zelensky also had a message for President Biden with his State of the Union address this evening, saying he wants to hear from the U.S. president a description, an explanation that this isn't just a war about Ukraine, it's about freedom of democracy, and that's why U.S. citizens, he said, Americans, should care -- Anderson.

COOPER: Obviously, Russian forces have been looking for President Zelensky.

The fact that you were able to get to him, can you just talk, in general, obviously, without giving details, about the process of getting to him and speaking to him?

CHANCE: Yes, I mean, he's taking a big risk being in this city, given that so many Russian forces have gathered around the outskirts of it, poised to attack.

But he clearly is a politician, a president that feels that it is his responsibility to stand his ground in his capital city. And, yes, he is in a bunker. And there are significant security measures around him. It's difficult to get in touch with him. We were contacted earlier on today. We were told to meet at a certain location. And then we were bundled into a government vehicle and escorted under armed guard to another sort of Central Kyiv location, where we were taken down into the basement of that of that building.

There was sandbags everywhere. There were military forces everywhere, machine gun outposts, really defending it very, very carefully. It's just one of the locations, apparently, where he where he can be located. And he moves, we're told, to various places around the around the city.

But -- and he appeared, of course, in military fatigues in the khakis, sort of T-shirts and trousers that we have seen him in so often in his social media posts. He looked very tired. He looked quite stressed. His eyes were red. He hadn't shaven. He was very pale, understandably, perhaps, given the amount of pressure, not just that he's under, but the entire country of Ukraine right now is under -- Anderson.

COOPER: I mean, do we know if he's seeing his family, his kids?

CHANCE: Well, it's a good question. And he did address that.

Remember, he said that he believes that he is the number one target for Russians when it comes to their combat operations here. Interestingly, he says that his family are the number two targets. And so that must be deeply stressful for him as a husband and as a father.

But his family apparently are still around. Well, at least he hasn't seen them for the past three days. And so he looked quite upset about that, actually. He was asked about it. He said, look, I haven't seen them since the beginning of the war. Then he said, no, actually, I saw them three days ago.

But there was -- honestly, there were tears in his eyes. But he definitely looked emotional when he was talking about his family and the fact that he had been separated from them now for such a long time. It's only -- OK, it's only three days. But it must seem like so much longer in the situation that he is in and that Ukrainians are in.

COOPER: Yes, rallying his people as best he can. Matthew Chance, thank you. Appreciate it in the capital of Kyiv.

Russia's military is warning of even more airstrikes against government buildings and technological facilities.

I want to talk about that now with CNN's Alex Marquardt, is near Kyiv.

Alex, the TV tower is one of the latest targets that Russia warned residents to leave. What's the feeling in the city?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it has been tense, of course, ever since Russia launched their invasion.

But I think it is particularly on edge now. We are just to the south of the city, both in the city and outside. People have been keeping their lights off. We're in a hotel where many of the lights off, people staying here using flashlights and the lights on their phones.

We are using minimal lighting to come on the air with you. You can see that there's nothing behind me. And that is because we really are seeing today Russia ratcheting up their targeting of the capital city, which, of course, they would like to take.

We saw some five people killed at least in that attack on the TV tower earlier today. That is just three miles from the city center. And it is evidence that Russia is not just stepping up their attack on the city itself, but on Ukrainian communications and on the information that comes out.

[14:10:00]

In fact, earlier, we did hear right from the Ministry of Defense admitting that they are planning on striking against Ukraine's information efforts. They announced, among other targets, that they would be going after Ukraine's internal security service.

They said that they are going to carry out these strikes in order, they said, to suppress information attacks against Russia. They know that they are losing this information war. And of course, this is coming from a country that has engaged in one of the most prolific information -- disinformation campaigns we have ever seen.

Now, the Russians there in their statement from the Ministry of Defense also said that they would be using what they called high- precision weapons. That's obviously to try to convince us that there would be minimal civilian casualties or collateral damage.

But we have obviously seen already that that has not been the case, apartment buildings that have been hit. And they told people, Ukrainians, to leave their homes that they live near what are called -- what they called relay nodes, essentially, communications towers.

And I believe, Anderson, that that's the first time that they have asked Ukrainians to leave an area or to leave their homes. And that obviously is a very, very ominous sign -- Anderson.

COOPER: We also saw this massive explosion in Kharkiv. What are the details on it?

MARQUARDT: Kharkiv, as you know, is the second biggest city in this country. So that's another major target for the Russians, and it's even closer to the Russian border, just about 20 miles. So that is a city that has seen more intense fighting than Kyiv for now.

There has been street fighting over the course of the past few days. Ukraine has done a pretty good job at pushing some of those Russian troops back. But we saw a devastating bombardment earlier today of an administration government building, so a civilian building.

And we're told by local authorities that at least 10 people were killed, some 35 injured. President Zelensky called this undisguised terror. He has already said that what Russia is doing constitutes war crimes. And then just yesterday, Anderson, you and I were talking about some of the shelling in the northeastern part of the city, and again in a residential area.

Russia continues to claim that they are not targeting civilians or residential areas. That is clearly, clearly not the case -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes, Alex Marquardt near Kyiv.

Alex, thank you. Appreciate it.

In the southern city of Kherson, the mayor has been pleading for help, as explosions and fires erupted in his town. Here's part of what he wrote on Facebook -- quote -- "The city is under attack," he says. "Residential buildings and urban facilities are burning. We try to coordinate the work of municipal services, but I confess it is very difficult now. We are not soldiers," he went on to say.

"We are civilians. If the Russian soldiers and their leadership hear me, I ask, leave our city. Stop shelling the civilians. You have already taken everything you wanted, including human lives."

CNN international security editor Nick Paton Walsh joins me now live from nearby Odessa.

Nick, you were in that city previously. What were you learning about these attacks in the south.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, Anderson.

And the question we asked when we were there was, do the Russian forces, who clearly needed the strategic bridge on the outskirts of Kherson, do they have a design to go into that strategically, not particularly helpful city? And we have got our answer certainly this morning, when I started speaking to residents inside of it, who said they were seeing Russian soldiers initially on foot, possibly 100 or so, spreading out across the city. They were joined by vehicles later on. And then we got this slow

rhythm of videos emerging, one in which Russian soldiers were pushing away shopping carts full of food away from what seemed to be a mall, another in which they appear to detain a man on the street. I heard from a resident there that was something that hurt was happening certainly more than once, and it seems in clashes around that city.

Another chilling video too showing a shell hitting an apartment block in that town. Another resident we spoke to said he and his family had simply fled because of that shelling. And so this really asks the question why the Russian forces feel they needed to move into that city to control its local population.

Perhaps they felt there were holdouts, maybe Ukrainian security forces within there that was impeding their grasp on that important bridge to its east, but it raises a broader problem. Now we are seeing Russian forces going into towns on a more regular basis. Are we going to see the sort of, I think, frankly, abuses we began to get a whiff of in some of these videos we have been seeing?

And it feeds into a wider picture, Anderson, I think that is concerning here on the Black Sea coast. This is a vital part of Ukraine's economy, of its infrastructure. Here, their third largest city, Odessa, the port, is an essential economic lever for much of Ukraine. And it appears that the Russian forces are pushing slowly west.

[14:15:01]

It's an half-an-hour's drive up here today. There was shelling and small-arms fire in a place called Dachni (ph). And that has many concerned here that we may be slowly seeing Russia applying pressure to this vast city -- Anderson.

COOPER: Nick Paton Walsh, appreciate it. Thank you.

We're going to go back now to Victor and Alisyn. It is difficult days here and more hard days to come.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean, we can see that the Russian narrative that they're not attacking or targeting civilians is not true.

We can see it with our own eyes, as we have just heard from our correspondents there.

Anderson, we will check back with you,

BLACKWELL: Anderson, thank you.

There's increased focus on Vladimir Putin's erratic and irrational behavior. What the U.S. intel community is looking for when evaluating whose current state of mind.

CAMEROTA: And U.S. defense officials say Russian troops are running low on gas and food in some parts of the country. How that impacts their next moves.

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[14:20:24]

BLACKWELL: A senior U.S. defense official says that Russian troops in Ukraine are running low on fuel, running low on food. The official says the shortage of supplies may be stalling the Russian advance in some regions, but the U.S. also believes that the Russian military is very risk-averse when it comes to its troops.

The official predicts that they will regroup, they will adjust, and they will change their tactics.

CAMEROTA: Here in the U.S., intel agencies are evaluating Vladimir Putin state of mind. This is according to two sources familiar with this effort.

Those who have watched Putin's behavior for years suggests he's become more erratic and irrational. Sources tell CNN that officials are combing intel reports to review how Putin has been affected by the unified and tough Ukraine in response to the invasion, and how that might impact his decisions going forward.

Joining us now is Leon Panetta. He's the former defense secretary and former CIA director and former White House chief of staff.

Secretary Panetta, great to have you here.

You have dealt with Putin and his state of mind for years. Do you think in the past couple of years -- are you seeing evidence that he's become more irrational and erratic lately?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, I think, first of all, it's important to understand kind of who Putin is.

Putin obviously comes from the KGB. He comes from that kind of intelligence background. He's somebody who's very intense and very calculating and has very strong views about Russia and about what he believes is right about Russia and its stance against the world.

And he operates alone. He's always operated alone. He really has not had people close to him who have worked with him. I think, as he becomes more isolated, and as he begins to feel that he may not have the complete support of the Russian people in this endeavor, I think that does kind of not only isolates him, but could make him more unhinged in his behavior.

So there is a danger, when a bully becomes even more isolated, that he will strike out.

BLACKWELL: I want to ask you about the progress or, in some cases, the lack thereof, that the Russian troops are making as they advance toward Kyiv.

A senior U.S. defense official says that the Russian advance toward the capital is -- quote -- "basically where it was yesterday."

Are there indications to you whether the pacing of the advance is deliberate, or if this is a result of the lack of resources, the lack of food, maybe some miscalculations?

PANETTA: No, I don't think there's any question that the Russian advance here has run into trouble for a lot of reasons, whether it's mistakes of judgment of command, whether they haven't planned as carefully as they should.

I think it's clear that they have made a lot of mistakes. But I think it's also clear that the Ukrainians have put up a hell of a fight. And they're -- Ukraine continues to put up a fight to really try to do what they can to try to interfere and stop their advances.

There's no question here that, with 200,000 troops, that the Russians represent overwhelming force. But when somebody is fighting for what they deeply believe in, I think we have always found in military history that that kind of fighter can be much tougher than somebody who's just part of an invasion force.

And I think we're seeing that today. I think the Ukrainians are doing a great job in trying to protect their country. It may not be enough in the end, but they are putting up a great fight.

CAMEROTA: Well, Secretary, that leads us to the no-fly zone.

President Zelensky of Ukraine is begging for that, because their -- the Ukrainian air force has antiquated equipment. They are woefully inadequate compared to, obviously, the Russian air defenses. But, of course, NATO and the U.S. are resisting creating a no-fly zone because that would be an escalation against Russia.

[14:25:00]

Can Ukraine survive without this no-fly zone?

PANETTA: I think the most important issue is our ability to provide military aid to the Ukrainians.

And if we can continue to provide military aid to the Ukrainians and find ways to do that, then I think -- I don't think it's necessary to consider a no-fly zone. But if it comes down to a point where it is much more difficult to provide that aid, then I think we ought to at least keep that idea on the table, in order to make sure that, under any circumstances, Ukraine gets the assistance they need to be able to keep fighting.

Right now, the key is to prolong this war as much as we can, and to squeeze and isolate Putin. Those are the two goals that we're involved with. And I think we have to do everything we can to make sure that Ukraine is getting the military aid they absolutely need in order to continue this fight.

BLACKWELL: So, we have leaned on your experience as former secretary of defense. We have leaned on the CIA director experience. Let's now turn to your time as White House chief of staff. And the president will deliver the State of the Union address tonight. And he will be lined up next to a theoretical, maybe even literal split- screen with what is happening in Ukraine.

What should the White House be considering hours before the president delivers this speech to the nation?

PANETTA: Well, this is an incredibly important moment for the country, for the world, and for the president in the United States.

We have seen past State of the Union speeches, their long lists of accomplishments and goals and hopes. And I hope that the president kind of puts that to the side, and really speaks to the crisis that we're confronting right now.

The fact is, the strongest thing about what the United States is doing is that we are unified with our NATO allies and that the world is unified in responding to this terrible unjustified war that Russia has decided to continue.

That unity is extraordinary. But it is our principal strength as democracies in confronting Putin and what he's doing. I think unity ought to be the principal theme of this speech, because that's what America is hungry for.

BLACKWELL: Former Secretary Leon Panetta, thank you.

PANETTA: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Well, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have already been displaced by war. The Russian invasion could produce one of the largest refugee crises in Europe.

We have a live report from the border, what's happening there now.

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