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NATO Says, Russia Using Cluster Bombs in Ukraine; Mariupol Under Siege, No Water, Power After Russian Attacks; Supreme Court Upholds Death Sentence for Boston Bomber. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 04, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:06]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And civilians are dying. Are you comfortable with that risk?

VIRGINIA DRONOVA, UKRAINIAN NATIONAL WHO RETURNED JUST BEFORE WAR STARTED: Nobody's comfortable in Ukraine and the mere fact that I came from Canada does not mean a lot to me. Yes, I could sit down comfortably in front of the T.V. in my apartment in Ottawa, but I chose to be with Ukraine. I chose to stand with my country. And if absolutely necessary, I will be fighting, I will take arms and I will be fighting along with my other citizens.

You mentioned a lot of Ukrainians fled the country. Way more Ukrainians stayed here and they are fighting, they are defending their land, and I will fight along with them.

SCIUTTO: Yes. We see that here in Lviv. I see -- yes, I see people leaving to the west, towards Poland, but I see others going the other direction, volunteering to serve, many of them young men, very young men.

Virginia Dronova, thank you so much for the work you're doing.

Virginia Gernova there, a volunteer to help the people of Ukraine.

Top of the hour, I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from Lviv, Ukraine.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill in New York.

At this hour, we are following follow major breaking news. This morning, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says that Russia has used cluster bombs in its attacks on Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: We have seen the use of cluster bombs, we have seen reports of use of other weapons which will be in violation of international law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Also this morning, unprecedented moves by Putin's forces. Russian troops are now in control of Europe's largest nuclear power plant after relentless attacks around the country. We're told managers at that power plant are working at gunpoint. It's a plant that supplies some 20 to25 percent of the power for the country.

Right now, officials say the fire is at that nuclear power plant is out. The radiation levels appear normal. Overnight though, Ukrainian President Zelensky called the attack terror at an unprecedented level.

SCIUTTO: On the outskirts of Kyiv, the capital, new drone video shows the devastating extent of the destruction there. The intensity of attacks on Ukraine is astonishing, it's increasing, civilians more and more in the crossfire, perhaps, the targets as well. This video shows the moment an apartment complex, that's right, an apartment complex pummeled by aerial bombardment. We've learned at least 33 people were killed in just that one attack there, and we're seeing so many like it around the country.

CNN's Alex Marquardt he is in the capital of Kyiv. Alex, Russian forces, they have taken control of that nuclear power plant, holding workers at gunpoint. Officials say it's safe and I'm told by U.S. officials that their understanding of the Russian intention here is not to destroy the plant but to take control of it and to control its power supply, have the ability, in effect, to turn it on and off to create pressure. I wonder if you're hearing the same from Ukrainian officials.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we are certainly hearing, Jim, you're right, is that they are very much this control. This is the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. And another element that we're realizing now is that this fight has moved to the center of the country. We talk a lot about what the Russians are doing in the north and the south. This city is firmly in the middle of the country. And, arguably, the last thing that you want to hear when a war is raging is that there has been an attack on a nuclear power plant, but that is exactly what has happened.

The Russians, we understand, from the state-owned nuclear power company says that the Russians are in control. He said that the management and the personnel are operating at the gunpoint of the invaders, that the Russians walked in, took over the power plant, took over the people, took the people who are there on site under control, and then the company has not had any direct contact. They're just hearing the news from sources.

Now, of course, this is extraordinarily worrying. I guess the good news, Jim, is that there does not appear to be any destruction at the most sensitive parts of this power plant. There was some building damage, there was that fire that we understand is now out. But when it comes to the reactor, the power units, it does not appear that those were impacted. We're hearing that from both Ukrainian officials as well as international officials, the International Atomic Agency saying that there's no evidence of radioactive leakage, no evidence that radioactive levels have spiked.

[10:05:02] But as you noted, this is a critical plant, it puts around half of the country's electricity from nuclear power and a fifth of the country's electricity overall. So, this puts Russia in control Around a fifth of Ukraine's power. Jim?

SCIUTTO: To weigh the lay siege to cities, deny them power, electricity. Alex Marquardt there in Kyiv, thanks so much.

Scott McLean, he is here with me in Lviv. And, Scott, you were just speaking with Ukrainians who were in negotiations with Russian officials, this taking place on the border between Ukraine and Belarus. Do they see any progress, any substance, really, to these talks at this point?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that they've agreed at least in principle on the need for humanitarian corridors. But we did not found out today from these two negotiators, one of whom is a presidential adviser to President Zelensky, the other, which is the head of government for the majority in power, she's obviously Zelensky's, they wouldn't give any very specific details because they said that they had agreed with the Russians not to do these negotiations in public. And so at least they agree on that.

But they said that, in general, the Russian position is quite firm, quite tough, quite strong, while so is the Ukrainian position as well. And they said when they first did the first round of talks, well, their position was maybe not quite as strong. The Russians believe that they had the upper hand but they believe that the sanctions that had a large effect on the negotiating position of the Ukrainians really helping to improve it. They also said that the resistance from the Ukrainian troops on the ground have also improved their negotiating position and they think that it would be bolstered even further by a no-fly zone. And they made this point over and over again.

Jim, the Ukrainians' point is that if you had a no-fly zone, even though the Ukranians would not be able to fly their jets either, they think that at least people would know that there aren't going to be bombs falling out of the sky and the Ukrainians think that, by and large, the Russian invasion on the ground is quite slow, not very dynamic, and they think that they can take them.

As for the humanitarian corridors, they say that we should know more hopefully later today. They are trying to work out the fine details of how exactly those corridors would work. I asked about the tone of the talks and when I asked about that, whether things were civil, whether things are cordial, the answer that I got was that they were constructive but that answer was not good enough for the local Ukrainian journalists who obviously have a dog in this fight and were quite emotional. And they asked about the photograph of the two sides shaking hands and asked, essentially, how can you possibly shake hands with killers? Listen to their response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MYKHAILO PODOLIAK, UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATOR: You are criticizing me that I'm not calling them killers. So, if I go there and say, guys, you are killers and you say thank you and then what do I have? I'll have dead people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: Now, in these 2.5 hour talks, the Ukrainians also say that they had proposed very specifically a 30 kilometer buffer zone around the nuclear power plant in the countries and they say that the Russians simply brushed this off. Obviously, we don't have the Russian response to this quite yet but what we do know is that in Zaporizhzhia, the nuclear power plant, they came within a whisker of nuclear disaster, it seems, overnight.

SCIUTTO: Scott McLean there, thanks very much.

Well, the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, says that today is a test to see if those talks with Russia actually create those agreed upon humanitarian corridors for people those fleeing Ukraine. There are a lot of them who want to get. They want to get out safely.

Thursday's round of talks, they took place, as we noted, in Belarus. Belarus has been a staunch Russian ally, served as an entry point to Ukraine for masses of Russian troops. Now, the world is watching to see if Belarus itself provides additional military support for Russia, including its own troops on the ground here. So far, Belarusian leaders deny plans to join the operation. That said, we know Belarusian leaders very close to the Russian president.

I'm joined by the Belarusian opposition leader, Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya. Sviatlana, nice to see you again.

SVIATLANA TSIKHANOUSKAYA, BELARUS OPPOSITION LEADER: Hello.

SCIUTTO: So, first question, do you believe the denial from Belarusian officials that they will send troops to help invade Ukraine? Do you believe Belarusian forces are likely headed this way?

TSIKHANOUSKAYA: You know, there are some regular troops might be sent to Ukraine in the next few hours or days.

[10:10:00]

We don't know. We see that those are soldiers who hesitate and delay. They don't want to fight against Ukrainians. And I released an appeal to our soldiers, refuse to go and defect. You have the right not to follow the regime's illegal orders. When you cross the border, change the sides and join the Ukrainian troops. Many Belarusian officers and soldiers already joined Belarusian independent units and fight alongside with Ukrainians.

SCIUTTO: Can they refuse, though? What would the penalty be there if those soldiers refuse those orders to fight, to invade?

TSIKHANOUSKAYA: You know, the choice is to defect or be killed. This is the choice about life and death.

SCIUTTO: Yes. People who are watching right now might know that you challenged the current Belarusian leader in elections there and you paid for it by threats to your family, your husband being imprisoned, having to leave the country for safety. Do the Belarusian people support Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

TSIKHANOUSKAYA: Of course not. Belarusian people don't want this war. We have never been aggressors through all our history and especially aggressors against our brothers. Ukrainians and Belarusian people are against the war. And we already -- Belarusian people already fight in Ukraine. Belarusians have already formed at least five military units to defend Ukraine and many works as volunteers in Ukraine and Poland. And last Sunday, up to 1,000 people protests against war in Belarus.

Resistance takes also many forms, like our partisans block roads and disrupt the Belarus railway system so that trains in Minsk or vehicles cannot be moved. The report on that movement of military vehicles, on the launch of war planes and missiles, again, as cyber attacks on the state institutions controlled by the Lukashenko regime. So, people want to show Ukrainians that we are on your side, but we have to fight against regime and instantaneously fight against this war.

SCIUTTO: You have an experience yourself, personally, of Vladimir Putin. Lukashenko is, in effect, Putin's man in Belarus. You know what he's capable of. How far does Putin go in Ukraine? Does he stop in Ukraine if the west doesn't stop him here?

TSIKHANOUSKAYA: You know, I really don't know what's in the head of this person, but I think it's very important for him not to lose his face in this fight. And I think it's absolutely necessary to stop this war in Ukraine, not to let the Kremlin go further because nobody knows where the red lines for him if he has these red lines at all.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, we know you aid a heavy price for standing up to Putin and Lukashenko. We wish you the best. We wish you safety.

TSIKHANOUSKAYA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead this hour, air raid sirens sounding in Odessa, in southern Ukraine, today. The sound increasingly familiar, increasingly ominous as Russian troops advance nearby, fears of an amphibious invasion there in the south. We're going to take you there live, next. HILL: Plus, the challenge of getting medical help and even supplies

to many areas in Ukraine is growing. You'll hear firsthand from doctors without borders as they try to set up response units.

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[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Right now, people in Southern Ukraine are bracing for the worst. It's part of the country where Russian forces have made some of the fastest progress but they're trying to slow Russia's advance, as those forces cut off electricity, water supplies, surround the city.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh, he joins me now from Odessa, Ukraine. And, Nick, this is the Russian playbook here. I mean, it's almost medieval, right? You surround, you cut off supplies, you try to choke off and starve the local population, cutting off power too is the intent. Tell us what it looks and feels like to be right in the middle of that.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes. I mean, look, Odessa, still a relatively busy city. We still have utilities here. We saw today though the sort of surreal sights of a holiday yacht club where rich Russians, some on shore, would take their vacation in earlier times, instead, its sand being put into bags and human chains forming to cart it off the center here to make barricade, the likes of which the city hasn't seen since it defended itself against Nazis in 1940s.

But it's off to the east where I'm standing, Jim, that that the Russian play book, as you mentioned, is becoming more palpable. In Kherson, where we were a matter of days ago, locals after two or three days of looting, failed utilities, humanitarian catastrophe, in the words of one resident, where insulin, other medicines are lacking today. They've seen eight trucks turn up in the central square.

[10:20:01]

They appear to be brought in by those sympathizing with the Russian military presence there. Overnight, a civilian convoy was reported rolling into town. And the concern voiced by Ukrainian officials is we're about to see the kind of movie, the sort of fake, synthetic show of support that we saw in Crimea in 2014, that we saw in Donetsk in 2015. They essentially ship people in to protest in favor of a Russian military presence and then these humanitarian aid trucks were essentially put aid into a population to fix a problem that Russia created in the first place. That's what we may see, according to Ukrainian officials. And it has, I have to say, residents I spoke to Kherson deeply concerned that they're walking in now into the parallel reality that Moscow creates a fake sympathy.

I should say, Jim, since I've been talking to you here, we are closing towards what they call (INAUDIBLE), sort of the martial law coming down. And we've heard outgoing bangs, a city on edge, sirens throughout this afternoon. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Echoes of World War II, and then, of course, the disinformation as well, tell the lie and keep telling it often enough. Nick Paton Walsh, thanks so much.

HILL: President Biden clamping down on Russian Leader Vladimir Putin's inner circle, slapping sanctions on Russian oligarchs with close ties to Putin. The White House is also banning U.S. travel for 19 oligarchs and 47 of their family members and close associates.

CNN's John Harwood joining us now live from the White House. So, John, what is the impact at the White House expects this latest round to have? JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they're hoping, Erica, is that in conjunction with the economic sanctions on big swaths of the Russian economy, stopping the Russian central bank from being able to stabilize the ruble, sanctioning major Russian financial institutions, they're trying to couple that with sanctions on individual oligarchs who are close to Putin, who help prop up Putin, who help shield his wealth, hide his wealth overseas.

You know, they sanctioned Putin, the United States and the European Union did last week, but there's some mystery over exactly where Putin's wealth is. One of the things they know is that oligarchs help shield that wealth, help hide the ownership of what Putin has.

What we're seeing is that as the images, the horrific images keep coming in from Ukraine, the shelling of civilians, the hardship and death that Putin is wreaking on Ukraine, that energy has only one place to go as long as NATO and the United States says they're not going to send troops there. It goes into punishing Russia economically.

And so you had a continuous ratchet up of the sanctions now. There's talk of sanctions in the oil and gas sector, which the E.U. and the United States have been reluctant to do because of blowback on U.S. consumers. But this is a one-way move right now, tougher and tougher and tougher sanctions as Putin continues this invasion. Not clear where it's going to stop, potential that it could backfire by causing Putin to be more aggressive, but right now, it's only going one way, Erica.

HILL: Yes, we'll continue to watch it. John Harwood, I appreciate it, thank you.

Also, I want to get to some breaking news from the Supreme Court, which has just upheld the death sentence for Boston Marathon Bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Getting us more on that news, let's go straight to CNN Supreme Court Analyst Joan Biskupic. So, Joan, what more do we know about this decision?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Hello, Erica. You remember this incident back in 2013. He had set off with his brother two shrapnel bombs at the very end of the Boston Marathon in 2013, ended up being convicted and sentenced to death. Today, the Supreme Court upheld that death sentence that had been thrown out by a lower court.

There were two grounds that he had challenged his death sentence on here, saying that the trial judge should have better screened the jurors for any pre-trial publicity that they might have seen and that other evidence involving how his brother might have influenced in the incident should have been admitted.

Today, the Supreme Court, by a 6-3 decision, said, no, effectively clears the way for the death sentence to be reinstated, upheld the death sentence as the trial judge had imposed it back in 2015, saying both that the judge did not abuse his discretion in the way that he had questioned potential jurors for this trial, and had not abused his discretion in terms of how he had excluded evidence of the brother's potential influence on Tsarnaev, so, a big deal.

We all recall what happened when three people were killed near the finish line, and hundreds injured in those two bombing blasts. There was a week-long manhunt for Tsarnaev and another man was killed during the course of that by him, and his brothers.

[10:25:00]

So, a big end, big conclusion today to what happens in 2013 at the Boston Marathon.

HILL: Yes, certainly. I remember being there and covering it as well. Joan, I appreciate it, thank you.

BISKUPIC: Thank you.

HILL: Still ahead, the dire situation at Ukrainian hospitals. We're going to take a look at how one Ukrainian doctor is trying to get children out as international aid organizations, like doctors without borders, are just trying to get help in.

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[10:30:00]