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Interview With Former Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff; Russia Cracks Down on Media; Russian Forces Seize Ukrainian Nuclear Power Plant. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 04, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:14]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. And thank you for joining us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York, and Anderson Cooper is joining us live from Lviv, Ukraine.

And just minutes from now, we will hear from U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Right now, he's meeting with NATO allies over a potentially terrifying development overnight, Russian forces launching an attack and seizing the largest nuclear power plant in all of Europe.

Here, you can see the Russian assault.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: A fire in an auxiliary building is now out and radiation levels appear to be normal.

Ukrainian nuclear officials say the plant managers remain on site working at gunpoint now of Russian forces. Ukraine's president calls the attack -- quote -- "terror of an unprecedented level."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): There are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine. If one of them blows, that's the end for everyone. That's the end of Europe. All of Europe will have to evacuate.

Immediate action must be taken to stop the Russian army. Don't allow the death of Europe. Stop this potential atomic catastrophe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, another big development today, NATO says that Russia is using cluster bombs and possibly weapons that would violate international law.

Now, cluster bombs are widely condemned for their indiscriminate killing of civilians. We have already seen video of indiscriminate killing. To be sure, civilians are increasingly being targeted. That is the city council building in Kharkiv under attack. Local officials say it was from a cruise missile. Sirens and screams are heard in the aftermath of Russian strikes on a

public building in Northern Ukraine. CNN has verified the location and authenticity of this horrific video posted on social media. Ukraine's government says at least 33 bodies have been recovered so far from this attack.

Now a report filed by ITV correspondent Dan Rivers from a village just south of Kharkiv. Now, CNN has not been able to independently confirm the amount of strikes the village endured or the number of deaths that resulted from the strikes.

And we want to warn you, some viewers may find these realities of war disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, ITV CORRESPONDENT (through translator): At first glance, it appears a peaceful sanctuary, which is why those bombed out of Kharkiv sought refuge here.

But a closer look shows the village of Yakovlivka was anything but safe. It was devastated by what locals say were four Russian airstrikes, and this was the result. The body of Victor lies in front of the home where he perished, as fireman search for that of his wife, Oksana, still buried under its ruins.

(on camera): What we're seeing here is the true face of this Russian invasion. President Putin doesn't seem to care whether civilians are caught by his shells and rockets. He's not liberating this country. He is destroying it.

(voice-over): There is no hearse for the bodies. One week on, and this war has already robbed the dead of their dignity and left the living seething with fury.

"Putin, you should die," he says.

In Natasha's garden, they're sifting the rubble for anything worth salvaging. She was sheltering nine people in her home, including several young children. Their car had been shot as they ran the gauntlet from the city.

(on camera): And two children were here.

(voice-over): She shows me where they were sleeping when the first missile hit. The shockwave ripped through every room, lacerating them all with glass.

The children escaped without major injury.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It's so scary. War is very scary. And there are all these mothers who don't understand, who don't have information in Russia on what is happening here.

Their children are being killed. They are being used as cannon fodder. They are cannon fodder. We have to have peace. People have to be able to live. Where can we live? How can we live? It's very scary.

[13:05:20]

RIVERS: Across the street, a garden hewn apart by the impact, the blast so powerful, it overturned cars, the crater so deep, you could bury one inside it.

People are left sifting through what's left without the support of any aid agencies, wondering what will come next, as the shelling continues to echo across this shattered community. There is no obvious military target here, just a village which tried to offer shelter to those in need.

Dan Rivers, News at 10, Eastern Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Those last lines are so important. There is no obvious military target there. It is homes where they were sheltering refugees, people who had fled other cities.

I want to thank our former colleague Dan Rivers of ITN for that very moving report.

Want to bring in CNN correspondents covering all the latest developments in this unfolding crisis scene.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is near the capital city of Kyiv. Our Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow.

Alex, first to you.

You're in the outskirts of Kyiv this morning. Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby talked about that Russian convoy stalled miles outside the city. I just want to play some of that for viewers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: That convoy that we talked about, also has been stalled and slowed. And, quite frankly, a big reason for that has been the Ukrainian resistance. They were able to hit some of those lead vehicles and get it to stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: What's the latest that you have been hearing and seeing?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Pentagon, Anderson, saying that not only is it stalled, but that it hasn't really moved, obviously, in the past few days, since the weekend. It's stuck about 15 miles outside of Kyiv.

And on top of the efforts that the Ukrainians and special forces in particular have made against those vehicles, there was also a bridge that was blown up that has caused them to stop, that has prevented their advanced.

But there are a number of factors that have gone into the fact that this convoy is pretty much at a standstill. And you think about how many days that we have been we have been talking about this, and it stretched way out. Initially, it was three miles. Now it stretched way out to 40 miles. You have heard military experts and former officials talking about them being sitting ducks out there.

And so we have seen these Ukrainian forces managing to pick off a number of those vehicles. Given the fact that they are so stretched out and that they are relatively far from supply lines, we also know that the Russians have had a hard time refueling and getting food.

And so the Pentagon believes that they are they are reassessing, that it may be too soon to say that they aren't making much progress. You still have a formidable amount of firepower in terms of the troops, the armored vehicles and the artillery, that are in that convoy.

And so there is a real concern that they will play a significant part of an encirclement of Kyiv, which the Ukrainians believe is still Moscow's main priority. They said that just today, that the top priority is still to encircle Kyiv and to break through the resistance.

So not only do we have that convoy that is north of Kyiv. We also have Russian forces to the west that the Ukrainians claim have been pushed back. We have seen some success by the Ukrainians against the Russian forces there. And the Ukrainians believe that they are calling up more resources to replenish their troops and their weaponry there.

And, Anderson, that is a very important point, because we keep hearing about the successes of the Ukrainians against the Russians. But the fact of the matter is the Russians have a much, much deeper reserve of power than the Ukrainians do. That's why the Ukrainians have been calling on everybody, not just in the country, but from outside the country, to come help them fight.

The Pentagon believe that some 92 percent of the prepositioned combat power of the Russians is now in Ukraine, and that they still have the vast, vast majority of that combat power still in reserve. So, despite the fact that the Russians have not made much progress here in Kyiv, there is still so much they can do.

And, Anderson, the belief is that if they are -- that because they may be frustrated on the ground, because they are getting pushback on the ground, that they may step it up from the air. So there is real concern, real fear that we may see -- soon see more significant aerial bombardment, not just of Kyiv, but other areas, by Russia's helicopters and jets -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes.

Fred in Moscow, NATO -- you have been watching Russian weapons and manpower poor into Ukraine now for this entire invasion. You're in Moscow now, U.S. officials saying they're using cluster bombs in Ukraine. Vladimir Putin is saying everything is going according to plan.

[13:10:08]

What's the latest that you have been seeing today?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Yes, look, and the NATO secretary-general obviously also saying today that NATO believes that the Russians have been using cluster bombs.

The Russians have said nothing about that so far. But the statements that we're getting from the Russian military and also from the Russian government remain pretty unequivocal. They keep saying that they are not targeting civilians, not targeting civilian areas, and don't want civilians to come to harm.

Now, what we have been hearing from the Russian military is, they accused the Ukrainian military of essentially hiding weapons in civilian areas, and, as the Russian government and the Russian military put it, using civilians as human shields in some of those areas as well.

So that's the official line that we're getting from Russia. And as far as those munitions are concerned, obviously, Anderson, one of the things that we saw when we were down in Belgorod, right across the front line in Kharkiv, was the Russians move a rocket launcher towards the front line that uses -- or that shoots thermobaric-tipped rockets.

And that's certainly something that's been criticized by the United States. We can't obviously confirm whether or not the Russians actually used that rocket launcher, but we do know that it was moved towards the front line and is obviously stationed in that area or was stationed in the area around the Kharkiv front line.

At the same time, though, Anderson as the Russians say that they are not causing any civilian casualties and that everything is going according to plan, as Vladimir Putin said, they are also cracking down on critical speech towards this operation.

Today, there was a law that was passed by the Russian lower house of Parliament and then the upper house of Parliament as well, seemingly trying to fast track all of this, which essentially makes it illegal to say anything critical about the Russian military and this operation, or anything that would sort of induce sanctions against Russia.

And the penalties are pretty massive. It's up to 15 years in prison or around $13,000, which is a huge amount of money here in Russia. Vladimir Putin still has to sign that law, but it certainly is already something that's having a chilling effect on journalists here in this country.

Of course, many of the critical media already have been shut down here in Russia. The BBC, for instance, today said it was ceasing operations in the Russian Federation.

And just a couple of minutes before we went to air, "Novaya Gazeta," of course, the managing editor of which just won the Nobel Peace Prize, is saying that it's that's taking down all of its content related to Russia's military operation, simply because they're not sure whether their journalists are going to have to go to jail for a very long time if they keep reporting on it, Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. Yes, I mean, it's all obviously aimed at journalism and accurate coverage, because, right now, everything that's imposing sanctions on Russia are the statements of Vladimir Putin. So he actually should be subject to that law.

Alex Marquardt, Fred Pleitgen, appreciate it -- now back to Ana in New York.

CABRERA: And, Anderson, this is a growing global crisis when you think of all the refugees that are now ending up in other countries. More than a million Ukrainians have fled the escalating hardships of war and are escaping to neighboring countries.

CNN's Sara Sidner is at one such crossing just inside Poland along the border with Ukraine.

Sara, what are you seeing today?

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: We're in a Medyka, Poland.

And just over my left shoulder is the border with Ukraine. We are seeing families, some of whom just crossed by us as you were talking. I'm going to have Jerry (ph) just show you. They have finally gotten some transports to get out of the frigid cold. You can see that they are carrying very few things. Most people have just one bag or one backpack, lots of children.

(AUDIO GAP) some kids who are in nine or 10 coming over the border. It's slow when it comes to the numbers. But, as you're seeing, it's all day and all night long people coming through here. And now Poland has about half of the one-million-plus people who have made their way from the war in Ukraine into another country, Poland bearing the brunt of that because of its proximity and because Poland has opened its doors much wider, allowing people, for example, not just to drive. They can walk.

And however they can get here, they will be allowed over the border, the E.U. and Poland assuring people, no matter what their residency is or what their passport says, they will be allowed to cross away and out of war.

But we are seeing something very interesting. And that is we are seeing not only people streaming out of Ukraine, but we are seeing a few people going in. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We picked up a few guys. And we're ready to join the fight.

It's a local story. I was a sniper in Afghanistan twice. And I went against ISIS as well in 2015. So, it's my second time as a volunteer. And we just met up at the airport. And we need to push a lot of people at the front very quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:15:08]

SIDNER: so there were several men that we noticed walking towards the border and then going in. They were speaking French. There was someone who was French Canadian. And there were people who were from the U.K., from England. All of them said that they were veterans of war, and that they wanted to just go and fight, fight for Ukraine, fight for, as they said, freedom, fight against Russia and against what they call fascism and communism.

They said this is their duty and that they are going in unpaid to try and help the Ukraine people. One by one, they said they had a plan, and that they had someone meeting them on the other side in Ukraine -- Ana.

CABRERA: It's all so interesting, so tragic.

Sara, stay with me for just a sec. We know we were having some issues with your signal. But I have been able to hear you loud and clear.

I just want to ask you then. There are some 500,000 people who are then crossing the border, are there in Poland right now. What happens to them after they cross, I mean, longer term, not just within 24 hours, but in the weeks to come? Where are they going? What's going to happen to them?

SIDNER: That's the thing. And that's why you see so much panic on people's faces, so much sorrow on people's faces, because, frankly, most of them have no idea.

We met a family last night who literally had the clothes on their back. They had nothing. They had panicked. There were bombings very close to them. They had gone into a shelter and literally ran out of that country as fast as they could get here. And they got here eventually by train.

And it was just a matter of trying to figure out who they could go to. They said they were going to a friend's house, the friend barely even knowing that they were going to show up the same night. There isn't a lot of planning that you can do. I mean, this has only been going on for a week and a few days. And so people don't know.

Some of them have been stuck in a train station for a couple of days trying to figure out their lives. One thing, though, we are hearing is that there are lots of people here in Poland and around Europe, Germany, Denmark, who are telling people they are welcome. They can come and stay in their personal homes, and they will give them transportation -- Ana.

CABRERA: Humanity can be so beautiful at times.

Thank you very much, Sara Sidner.

We are waiting to hear from Secretary of State Antony Blinken, after his meeting with NATO allies. We're on top of that.

Plus, while Russia ramps up attacks on his country, Ukrainian President Zelensky says it's the only way to stop this war, a talk with Putin. He says he doesn't want to, but needs to.

And if Russia was doing so well in this world, why is the Kremlin stopping at nothing to prevent information from reaching the Russian people? More on Putin's battle to control the narrative.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:22:06]

CABRERA: Welcome back.

In moments, we are expecting to hear from Secretary of State Antony Blinken after his meeting with NATO allies.

And as we await that, we are learning more about Russia's increasingly brutal tactics in Ukraine, including the reported use of cluster bombs. Here was the head of NATO a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: We have seen the use of cluster bombs. We have seen reports of use of other types of weapons, which will be in violation of international law.

This is brutality. This is inhumane and this is violating national law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The alleged atrocities don't end there.

Europe's largest nuclear power plant is now in Russia's hands, after a fire caused by their attack was put out. The manager says the staff is now working at gunpoint.

Let's bring in former Commander of the U.S. Army in Europe Lieutenant General Ben Hodges and former Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

Thank you so much, both, for joining us.

General, let me start with you. These cluster bombs, Russia's control now of a Ukrainian nuclear power plant, does this change the game?

GEN. BEN HODGES (RET.), FORMER U.S. ARMY EUROPE COMMANDER: Well, it certainly signals that they're dropping all restraint on the use of weapons to terrorize the civilian population, to destroy infrastructure. There -- no restraint. So, I mean, that's what it's going to be like

for the rest of the time until this is over. So we need to be prepared for that.

CABRERA: And so, Mr. Secretary, Russia potentially is committing war crimes out in the open now. What's your take? What does that tell you about where this is headed?

MICHAEL CHERTOFF, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Well, I think it's not potentially committing any more crimes. They are committing more crimes.

And I'm afraid to say, I think this will continue, particularly as Putin is disappointed in the ability of his actual troops to get control over Kyiv and Kharkiv. And I think this means, eventually, there will be perhaps an international law investigation. Whether that will amount to anything in terms of the ability to actually bring Putin to some kind of court is very doubtful.

But some of the people who are aiding and abetting him may ultimately face some kind of a legal reckoning.

CABRERA: So is that what would have to happen? Putin would have to turn himself in if he were to be prosecuted for war crimes?

CHERTOFF: Either someone would have to perhaps depose him and then turn him over.

More likely, what you would see is, some of the people who are enabling this might go -- try to travel at some point and then might be arrested. We saw that, for example, with war crimes that were committed in the Balkans some years back.

But, to be candid, I wouldn't hold my breath that Putin is ever going to face legal accountability. I think the bigger issue for him is whether the Russian public at some point holds him accountable.

[13:25:07]

CABRERA: And I guess, more immediately, how does this war stop?

Zelensky has suggested that he and Putin should have direct talks, saying there is no other way to stop this war.

General, what do you think about that?

HODGES: Well, as long as we understand who we're talking to,

President Putin, obviously, is not somebody that can be reasoned with. And so I think this -- in order for us to have some sort of successful negotiation, which will be how this ends, we're going to have to recognize that they're always seeking a position of advantage.

And, Ana, if I may, this nuclear power plant that they have fired at and captured reminds me that, in Lithuania, there's another nuclear plant called Ostrovets, a nuclear power plant. Our Lithuanian allies are terrified of this same because it's built by the same people that brought you Chernobyl. It's very, very close to the city of Vilnius.

And now that Belarus has said that they no longer neutral, President Lukashenko has lifetime immunity, and they welcome Russian nuclear weapons into Belarus, I see that this is a another potentially very dangerous situation that could be used by the Kremlin.

CABRERA: Zelensky has been urging NATO and the U.S. to establish a no-fly zone. And NATO is saying, no, we aren't going to do that. The U.S. says, absolutely not, because that could create a direct conflict between the U.S. or NATO troops and Russia and then we have a world war.

And we know, Secretary Chertoff, there is no appetite in America to put boots on the ground in Ukraine. I wonder, how much does what's happening over there impact U.S. national security right now? Is the home front more or less vulnerable while Russia's waging this war in Ukraine?

CHERTOFF: Well, we clearly have to be concerned about particularly a cyberattack.

As we increase sanctions on the financial sector, and as there's an impact on the energy exports that the Russians used to basically fund themselves, there is an increased risk that there will be some kind of cyberattack on critical infrastructure. Now, the U.S. has warned Russia, if you do that, we will respond in kind.

And so, therefore, there should be some deterrent effect. But it's a little hard to calibrate with Putin exactly how seriously he takes deterrence, and to what extent he's going to feel impelled to try to visit some kind of cyber consequence on the United States.

For that reason, DHS and other U.S. government agencies have been warning the private sector and working particularly with the financial community and the energy sector to make sure that they are tuning up their defenses and are prepared to meet a potential ransomware attack or other cyberattack.

CABRERA: Mr. Secretary, are you surprised we haven't seen that kind of retaliatory attack at this point?

CHERTOFF: I mean, I wouldn't say I'm surprised.

I would not have been surprised if we had seen something already. But it's only been a few days since the sanctions have been in effect. And I don't know whether Putin is planning at some point in the near future to do something, or whether, at this point, he's so focused on trying to get boots on the ground throughout Ukraine, that that is really preoccupying him.

I also don't know to what extent the people around him who are responsible for dealing with cyberattacks may be a little reluctant, because they may be doubting whether this is a wise thing on which to double down.

CABRERA: General, we know the U.S. is sharing intelligence with the Ukrainians at a -- quote -- "frenetic pace."

But officials tell us real-time U.S. intel gathering is limited right now, right? We don't have anybody on the ground, and there's an apparent lack of military drones flying overhead. So, without being there, how helpful is that information?

HODGES: Well, I think that the considerable intelligence capabilities of the United States and of the U.K. are probably significant.

We're sharing intelligence in a way that I have never seen before, I mean, so much. Of course, it would be better if we had actual troops that were there to talk -- what we call human intelligence. That would be very helpful.

But within the parameters we have, I suspect we're doing a very good job of providing things, from imagery and signals intelligence, things that we are intercepting.

CABRERA: General Ben Hodges and former DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff, thank you both so much for taking time to share your expertise and insights.

Still ahead: bracing for an invasion. CNN is live in the southern port city of Odessa along the Black Sea. And we will show you how Ukrainians there are preparing for Russian troops.

Stay with us for all the breaking news. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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