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Blinken Speaks On Russia/Ukraine Conflict After Meeting With NATO, E.U. Leaders; Officials: Russians Closing In On 3rd Nuclear Facility; Should NATO Be Doing More As Russia Escalates Aggression?; Kherson Mayor Says City Is Now Under Russian Control; Brian Deese, Director, White House National Economic Council, Discusses Spiking Gas Prices, Jobs Report Exceeding Expectations & U.S. Imposing Sanctions That Damage Russian Economy, Limits Impact On American Economy. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired March 04, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: So, I don't want to draw any conclusions from the week of invasion in terms of what this tells us about Russia or its capabilities. I think we'll have time to fully assess that.

What we do know, what it does tell us, is how extraordinary the Ukrainian people are. Their will, their determination, their absolute commitment to defend their country, to defend their freedom, to defend their future.

That is the story of the past week. And it is an incredibly powerful one.

Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thank you very much.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: We're listening to Secretary of State Antony Blinken who is speaking in Brussels, Belgium.

He's spending the next several days meeting with a number of different countries belonging to NATO as they continue to try to figure out what they can do to help Ukrainians continue the defense of the country that they have been showing.

Joining us now is CNN's Natasha Bertrand in Brussels. Also joining us is former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Steven Pifer.

Ambassador Pifer, what stood out to you in terms of what Secretary Blinken said?

STEVEN PIFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Well, I think the secretary outlined the cost that has been imposed on Russia.

And I believe that in this conversation today, both with NATO, the European Union, and also with the G-7, they're looking at ways to apply further pressure on Russia. But unfortunately, we don't see much sign that the Russians are

prepared to back down.

COOPER: Natasha Bertrand, the secretary also talked about trying to help Europe with getting off dependence on Russian oil, which is providing huge income to Vladimir Putin to continue this war.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN REPORTER: That's right. And he said here, "No strategic interest in reducing the global supply of energy."

The United States has no strategic interest in reducing the global supply, driving up prices in Russia and, therefore, padding their profits obviously, and then depleting the supply elsewhere.

So clearly energy sanctions is something of a last resort. Nothing they've been entertaining over the last several months because of how it would affect the global economy.

Because it would jack up prices in the United States, potentially effecting the president and his administration politically.

And it is just not feasible for them to completely sanction the sector because of how reliant Europe is on Russian oil and gas.

Now, what did he mention there, which was a key kind of victory that the United States has been promoting, is the destruction, essentially, of Nord Stream 2.

The fact that this pipeline, this Russia-to-Germany gas pipeline is not going to happen. It is dead.

And that is because they diplomatically convinced Germany to seize the construction of that pipeline and in response to Russia's invasion. So they do see that as a victory.

But many people are still calling for those energy sanctions, saying that, unless Russia really feels this in its most important sector, then it will be able to continue kind of profiting from the U.S. and European purchase of its exports and, thereby, continue the war.

COOPER: Ambassador Pifer, I spoke to an adviser to President Zelenskyy today and he expressed two things.

One, they continue to call for a no-fly zone, which seems to be off the table as far as NATO is concerned. I'm wondering about your thoughts on any possibility of that down the road.

The second thing they are talking about and believe Russia may be willing to pursue are humanitarian corridors.

Given Russia's history on not really honoring humanitarian corridors, how skeptical are you or optimistic are you about the possibility for that in Ukraine?

PIFER: Well, on the second part, on the humanitarian corridor, supposedly there was some agreement reached by Russian and Ukrainian officials yesterday. But as I understand it, there was no agreement on local cease-fire.

And it is kind of difficult to see how you could do a humanitarian corridor having people coming out of a city, having food and medical supplies moving in if you don't have a local cease-fire agreed.

And unfortunately, one report I've seen suggested that one area in the city of Kherson where they thought they had an agreement, the mayor is now saying at the Russians have not agreed.

On the no-fly zone, it is very hard for me to see NATO agreeing to that. Because it requires not only a readiness -- if you impose a no- fly zone over all of Ukraine -- a readiness for NATO to shoot down Russian planes.

[14:35:07]

But also to protect the NATO planes that are carrying out that no-fly zone, there has to be readiness to strike ground-based air-defense assets.

Not only with the Russian invading forces in Ukraine, but also an occupied Crimea, Belarus and Russian proper.

And I think that gets to pretty close to an all-out shooting war which it seems to me that NATO wishes to avoid.

COOPER: Yes, certainly.

Ambassador Steven Pifer, and Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much.

I want to go to -- I talk more about the situation in the Ukrainian power plant.

Joining me is James Acton. He is co-director of the Nuclear Policy Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

James, we know that operations at the plant are said to be ongoing with Ukrainian plant workers working under Russian -- the point of a gun of Russian troops.

How -- I mean, as you see this, how concerning is this situation at this plant, the largest in Europe?

JAMES ACTON, CO-DIRECTOR, NUCLEAR POLICY PROGRAM, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: Well, the situation of that plant is certainly concerning.

The latest update I've seen is that five of the six reactors at the site have now bun shut down. One of the reactors is operating at lower power. Though that information is few hours old at this point.

Even when a reactor has been shut down, the fuel within its core still needs cooling. It is not in a safe state for some time yet.

And it is imperative that the workers at the plant be able to do their jobs, they're not forced to work hours beyond which they cease to become effective decision-makers.

The nature of operating a nuclear power plant safely is inconsistent with military operation.

COOPER: Correct me if I'm wrong. I read that there will also -- pools of water with spent fuel rods at the Zaporizhzhia power plant. And is that your understanding as well?

And I would assume that in a -- if there's a fire fight going on, or bombs falling or shelling, if there are large pools of waters with spent fuel rods, that would be concerning.

ACTON: So every nuclear reactor has spent fuel pools right next door to the reactor core, where spent fuel that is no longer used for energy production is moved from the reactor core to the spent fuel port during refueling.

The good news is these pools are inside these very heavily shielded, thick concrete containment buildings. Small arms fire likely shelling will not do much damage at the site of the containment area.

The much bigger concern about fighting is that the electrical power systems that a plant relies on to cool the fueling event -- in the event it is shut down, could be damaged by shooting, by fire, by small munitions.

And this is a problem because Ukraine has four nuclear power plants in the country, 15 reactors in total.

The very worrying things that we saw last night at this particular plant could be repeated with significantly worsen at other plants around the country.

COOPER: Is it clear -- if they wanted to take the Zaporizhzhia plant completely offline, would that -- what would the electricity needs -- would that cut electricity to most of the country?

ACTON: So in 2020, I think, is the most recent figure I saw Ukraine produced by 50 percent of his electricity via nuclear power.

And this particular plant, there's five out of the 15 reactors in the country are in this particular plant.

So, Ukraine certainly has the ability to shut down some reactors. But I simply don't think it is possible for it to shut down all reactors and avoid blackouts, which will add to the misery that the Ukrainian people are facing right now.

COOPER: Experts are cautioning Zaporizhzhia is not Chernobyl. You could talk about how these plants are different?

ACTON: So, the design at the reactors are very different between the VDER design at this reactor and the ABNK reactor at Chernobyl.

We're also worried about different accident sequences here.

[14:39:59]

What happened at Chernobyl was the plant operators made a series of mistakes that caused the nuclear reactions in the reactors core to proceed at a high rate.

The amount of energy produced simply couldn't be contained in the reactor and it exploded. That is very unlikely to occur at any of Ukraine's currently operating nuclear power plants.

The fear there, as I've explained already, is that the cooling systems for the plant are disrupted or damaged.

And these -- and particularly the power supplies for these cooling systems, which include but are not limited to the nation's electricity grid.

If the grid connection from the outside to the reactor is severed, there's -- that is a key source of -- one of the keys of power for cooling the reactor cores.

And without cooling, fuel could melt down, radiation could be released into the worst-case scenario.

The accident that 10 years ago we saw, 11 years ago now, of this kind was Fukushima, which was still an extremely serious accident but quite different in the causes from Chernobyl.

COOPER: James Acton, I appreciate your expertise on this. It is important to hear. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

I want to go back now to Victor and Alisyn in New York.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: I mean, even without the worst-case scenario, there's so much room for error with that nuclear plant right now.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: And now Russian troops are headed to the third nuclear site in Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: Anderson, thank you very much. We'll check back with you soon.

Moments ago, Secretary Blinken echoed the stance that a no-fly zone is on the table. So what can be done to help Ukraine fight? We'll discuss.

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[14:46:04]

CAMEROTA: A senior U.S. defense official believed that Russia has 92 percent of the combat power restaged for this invasion now in Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: Russian ground forces are achieving more in the southern part of the country than the stalled out convey north of Kyiv.

The city of Kherson has reportedly fallen to Russian forces. And there's now fighting in nearby Mykolaiv.

People in Mariupol, to the east, they are facing a humanitarian catastrophe, according to that city's mayor.

Joining us now is retired Army Major Mike Lyons.

Major, welcome back.

Let me start with a question that the secretary of state was asked just a few minutes ago.

Should the West, should NATO be doing more than we talked about the Stingers? Should there be jets supplies in comparison to what we're seeing this escalated aggression from Russia?

MAJ. MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY, RETIRED: I think we're doing all that we can and that is what is most important.

I think NATO has to get its house in order and start reinforcing troops into the Baltics and material there as well.

There's no reason to think that Vladimir Putin won't have his sights set on eventually doing that. I think he'll look at the Baltics as not a real NATO original country. And the fact that he might ignore and see what we do.

But in Poland, and it looks like the Russians won't decide to cut off that way to egress in Ukraine. U.S. troops that are in Poland are likely helping with that material being distributed. We're doing all we can.

The Russians won't attack that road. They won't try to go after it. It is too far away from where the troops are. And then again, allow us to keep pouring material into Ukraine.

And it has been just so successful when you see the pictures coming back of tanks with their tops blown off them.

CAMEROTA: By the same token. I know you say we're doing all we can, and where that we sit that is what it feels like but that is not what it feels like on the ground in Kherson and places taken over by Russian troops feel.

We just heard from the secretary of state saying $350 million worth of weapons was authorized in February, $250 million of that, I think was saying, had been delivered.

So that is anti-tank, anti-aircraft, small arms, various munitions, body armor and other related equipment.

But they need airplanes. This is what the people on the ground are saying. They're having a hard time staving off Russian troops from taking over some cities like Kherson.

LYONS: Yes. And the only advantage is the Russians don't seem to be learning. They still have vehicles in convoys that, again, as that equipment

pours into Ukraine, you're going to see the vehicles start to get picked off with those Javelins and with those other anti-tank weapons.

But this is their fight. That is the harsh reality of it. And we've got to keep NATO out of it from a strategic perspective because we don't want to escalate.

And Russia hasn't dominated the air space, land space or cyberspace. They haven't taken control of this.

We're close to a tipping point with the Russian soldiers on the ground. There's examples of soldiers abandoning tanks. That is unheard of, from a military perspective, abandoning that kind of military equipment.

So the Ukraine citizens and militaries are doing a superb job. It is their fight and we're doing all we can to support them.

BLACKWELL: Major, I mentioned at the top that the city of Kherson in the south has fallen now under Russian control, reportedly.

What does it take maintain that control, especially when you have such defiance from the people there in that city?

LYONS: Victor, with 90 percent of the forces committed now, unless more come in, the guerrilla sabotage math doesn't work for the Russians.

They won't have enough troops to support what they're going to have to support, the men that are back there. So the insurgency will start.

[14:50:00]

I think the mayor likely surrendered to try to buy some time to keep the killing from stopping. There's no shame in that and given the amount of fire power that they brought to the battlefield.

But in the same token, they're going to have a hard time holding that. And at the very least, they will be forced to keep troops in that region and not send them north to Kyiv and try to enforce that situation.

Kyiv remains their primary line of effort, no question about it. They have to do that. That's the center of gravity.

BLACKWELL: Retired Army Major Mike Lyons, thank you, sir.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is causing gas prices in the U.S. to spike at rates not seen since 2005. Overnight, just one night, gas prices jumped 11 cents. And 18 cents the day before that.

CAMEROTA: The national average price for regular gasoline right now is $3.84. That's the highest since 2012.

With us now is Brian Deese, director of the White House National Economic Council.

Brian, great to see you.

So there's very good news today and then there's bad news. This is the paradox of the economic situation Americans are facing.

Great jobs report. Exceeded expectations. Much better than people were thinking.

But people at the pump, what we were just saying, it's $1.10 more than a year ago.

How bad do you expect it to get and how do you square that?

BRIAN DEESE, DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: You're absolutely right. We got a jobs report for February that was higher than expected and underscored the strength of the labor market and the historic labor market recovery.

Which is good news for the American economy and also underscores the resilience of this recovery.

That the American economy, uniquely in the world, is strongly positioned to address what are a real serious set of challenges in front of us. High prices and gas prices is certainly one of them.

Our approach has been and continues to be to focus on working with our allies and partners to do everything we can to secure global supply of energy.

Including the unprecedented step that the president helped to engineer last week of getting the IEA to announce a global release of 60 million barrels of strategic reserve around the world.

And we'll keep meeting to work this issue in real time with our allies as we go.

But the strength of the American labor market and the strength of the American economy is an important asset we have going into these challenges.

And it reflects the strength of the recovery that is helping a lot of Americans in a lot of places in this country right now.

BLACKWELL: Brian, let me ask you about Russian oil and ports and the potential bad on those.

Speaker Pelosi said she's all for it. You have bills in the Senate from Democrats and Republicans who support banning Russian oil imports.

The White House says it's not a step that is prepared the take right now. Why not now?

DEESE: A couple of points here. First, everything we have done preparing for and up to Putin's invasion and since. we have been working to be in lockstep with our allies and partners.

That's hugely important in terms of having global solidarity and imposing pain where it needs to be imposed, which is on the Russian economy.

Number two, our focus has been, what is in our strategic interest? Our strategic interest is not to reduce the global supply of energy at this moment.

And we were just talking about the upper pressure on gas prices. So we don't want to increase -- reduce the global supply of energy in a way that would harm consumers in America, in Europe.

So every action we take will be calibrated based on those two priorities. So we are actively engaging with our allies and partners on this issues, and potential steps right now.

And that's a process that you've seen. We've worked in the context of the financial sanctions as well. That takes time --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Brian, what -- what the president promised when he announced the first sanctions was that, as the aggressions increased from Russia, so would the punishment and committed to that punishment focused on the Russian economy.

What hurts the economy more than a ban on those imports? And if it's based on the increase of aggression -- NATO says they're now using cluster bombs, which are banned.

They're hitting schools and apartment buildings and industrial parks as well. We see the refugee crisis.

Why not now take that step?

DEESE: Absolutely. We are imposing the most historically strong, crushing economic sanctions on the Russian economy in coordination with our partners. And we are ratcheting them up.

Just to be very clear. The Russian economy, the result of that is reeling. The Ruble is down 40 percent. Their stock market is closed indefinitely because they are in functional default.

So their economy is feeling the pain of this coordinated effort. And we are ratcheting up.

[14:55:01]

You have seen announcements from the White House and from our allies in just the last couple of days.

Additional sanctions imposed on additional oligarchs. An effort to go after the spoils, the yachts and the properties of those oligarchs.]

And we will continue to consider and take actions that to exactly what the president promised, to provide very, very damaging economic pressure on Putin while limiting the negative impact for the American economy and the American consumers.

And that's absolutely our focus.

CAMEROTA: Brian, I know you have to go, but very quickly, what should Americans brace for? If we're at $3.84. What number should Americans brace for because of the consequences of all of this?

DEESE: We're in an uncertain moment. And energy prices are high and they're hitting families in their pocketbooks.

What we're focused on is what we can do to try to moderate those increase and bring those prices down.

And the way that we can do that is to do what we just discussed, make sure we have sufficient supply of energy on the market while focusing all of our efforts on squeezing and hurting the Russian economy.

We're seeing that in real time. We have more work to do on that front.

I think the American families at home should take some heart from the very strong jobs numbers we had today, the strength and resilience of the American economy.

And take resolve that our allies and the entire world is unified. That a war of choice is something that is going to have costs around the world but we are managing those and we are unified in that effort.

BLACKWELL: Brian Deese, thank you.

DEESE: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Russian forces have seized the largest nuclear power plant in Ukraine. A senior defense officials say the U.S. is deeply concerned about Russia's intentions with that power plant. We have a live update.

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