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Officials: Russians Closing In On Third Ukrainian Nuclear Facility; NATO: Russia Using Banned Cluster Bombs In Ukraine; Biden Hosts Finland's President Amid Russian Escalation In Ukraine. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired March 04, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: The top of a brand new hour on CNN. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

A reckless act of war and violation of international law. NATO is condemning two major actions by Russian forces.

After taking over the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, power plant overnight, the largest in all of Europe, Russian troops are now reportedly just 20 miles away from Ukraine's second largest nuclear facility as well. Russian shelling sets part of the Zaporizhzhia complex on fire. Although Ukrainian authorities say radiation levels there appear normal, the Ukrainian ambassador just said the building is damaged and safety inspectors are not allowed access to the site. Employees of that plant are reportedly working at gun point.

BLACKWELL: NATO also confirmed today it has evidence that Russia has dropped cluster bombs. Those are banned under the Geneva Convention and condemned by the international community because they create a huge risk of civilian casualties.

And we're seeing more evidence that Russian troops are attacking civilian buildings. New video from the outskirt of Kyiv -- look at this. These are homes and stores that are burning. This, we're going to show you now is a business center, one of many buildings destroyed by Russian attacks.

CAMEROTA: Anderson Cooper is live for us in Lviv.

So, Anderson, what is the assessment on the ground of the damage to these nuclear plants and the risk?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You know, I think it's still to be determined. Certainly what we hear from the international observers is that radiation levels have not increased, which is and Ukrainian officials are still operating the plant, just at the point of Russian guns. So, you know, the word that they Russian forces are now moving on the second largest plant in Ukraine, that is obviously a concern as well given the fire fight we saw on that closed circuit camera images in Zaporizhzhia last flight.

CNN senior national security correspondent Alex Marquardt joins us now live from the Kyiv region.

Alex, what's the latest understanding of what's going on at the nuclear plant Zaporizhzhia and also at this other one that they are moving on?

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The question now is really what is Russia's intent with these. In the lead up to this invasion, there had been fears that Russia would try to impose a plaque out or cut off the power to cause chaos and, of course, to make it very difficult for Ukrainians to stay here. So, what we understand about the plant is there was a firefight, that there was a fire at a building or buildings on that complex. But the reactors, the power units themselves were not damaged.

This is both according to local officials and the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency. We do understand that Russia is fully in control of the Zaporizhzhia power plant. This is a power plant as we have been saying that is the biggest in Europe. It's smack in the middle of Ukraine, so that shows that Russian forces have made their way up to the middle of the country and closing in on yet another city.

And the operator of that power plant says that they are not in direct communication with those working there, but that they understand that the workers there are working under the barrel of Russian guns.

[15:05:14]

And that's also the case at the Chernobyl power plant. So, you got Russian control of these two major power plants. So, there has no increase in the radioactive levels. There's been no indication that there's any sort of radioactive leak. That was confirmed again just moments ago by the Pentagon.

But the one in Zaporizhzhia puts out about 20 percent of Ukraine's power. And so, that begs the question of what does Russia plan to do with that now. Now, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations says they don't plan on doing anything destructive there. They don't plan on creating new nuclear meltdown or anything like that. They have to keep the power running if they want the cooling to continue. Otherwise there would be a meltdown.

But, Anderson, of course, major concerns if Russia is going to be controlling that much of Ukraine's power now -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yeah. I also want to ask you more about the fighting we have been seeing and you've been monitoring from Kyiv -- around the Kyiv area. I just want to warn our viewers. We're expecting comments from President Biden shortly. So, I may have to interrupt you.

But what's the latest you've been -- you've been seeing today?

MARQUARDT: Well, you know, what we have been seeing is just an extraordinary flurry of new reports, new video, new testimonials from cities all across the country, names that are becoming very familiar to our viewers, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, of course, here in Kyiv, Mariupol. And all these places coming under not only increasing shelling, but indiscriminate shelling. Shelling that is hitting civilian areas, residential buildings, hospitals and schools, people losing their lives by the dozens.

And one of the hardest hit areas that we have seen is just --

COOPER: Alex, President Biden is holding a bilateral meeting with the president of Finland. Here are the comments he made.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm delighted to have a good friend with us here today, the president of Finland, in the White House, in what is a critical moment involving all of us. We have been in touch for some time now, coordinating united transatlantic response to Russian accountable for the unprovoked and unjustifiable aggression against Ukraine.

And we agreed it's not only an attack on Ukraine, it's an attack on the security of Europe and on the global peace and stability.

And Finland is a critical partner of the United States, a strong defense partner as well, partner to NATO, especially in, on strengthening security in the Baltic Sea area and we're committed to helping Ukraine defend itself and in support of humanitarian needs of Ukrainian people and we're coordinating everything from sanctions to export controls and broader global issues of energy, security, climate, and human rights.

So I want to thank you for making the trip, Mr. President, our bilateral relationship is vitally important to the United States, and I think you see it the same way. And this is another opportunity for us to further strengthen that relationship. So thank you for being here and welcome to the Oval Office and the floor is yours.

SAULI NIINISTO, PRESIDENT OF FINLAND: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you very much for the opportunity to have these discussions with you. We are really living very difficult times. I want to thank you, also, for the leadership you have showed. We need it now.

Our thoughts today, we are with the Ukrainian people who are fighting bravely for their country. And we do our best to help. Like you, Mr. President, said, we have a long-lasting partnership, very good relations and I hope that during this meeting and discussion, we can strengthen it more, the United States and Finland, and the Nordic countries all together.

Thank you, Mr. President.

BIDEN: You know, my predecessor sat in this seat, President Obama used to say, if we'd be alright if we left everything to the Nordic countries, we'd be fine. NIINISTO: Well, we don't start wars.

BIDEN: No.

Well, thank you very much. Thank you all for being here.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Let's go. Thank you, guys. Let's go.

COOPER: President Biden meeting with the president of Finland.

Joining me now, CNN's chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins, and also back with us is CNN's Alex Marquardt in the Kyiv area.

Kaitlan, let me just start with you. What's been coming out of the White House today?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, also notice that joke there at the end that the president of Finland made when Biden was referencing said Obama used to say, we should leave everything up to the Nordic countries, and he made that aside right before reporters left the room, saying, yeah, we don't usually start wars.

Of course, this is a meeting that comes amid a very critical time. President Biden and the president of Finland have spoken several times over recent months. Now they are meeting today in person as this Russian invasion of Ukraine is ongoing.

And since this invasion started, this talk about maybe making Finland a part of NATO is only ramped up even further. It's something they have been talking about for several years. They are not a member of NATO right now. They are essentially considered partner to NATO. They have these agreements with several NATO allies but they are not actually a member.

The talk about them joining NATO has been ramped up and encouraged in recent days ever since this invasion started, ever since even before that when Putin was amassing these forces on Putin's boarder.

Obviously, Russia does not want Finland to join NATO. That would be a problem for them but there's a discussion about how he's been seeking to weaken NATO, he's only made it stronger by making countries more united, making countries talk about who they could potentially add to NATO.

So, that is something they are talking about today. The White House didn't get into before this meeting started happening just a few moments ago in the Oval Office, whether or not that is something that they are going to come to an agreement on or making them major non- NATO ally is also a designation the United States has given to several countries before.

That's all on the table right now, and we should note, of course, Anderson, the president's day has been full of talk about Ukraine and this invasion that's ongoing because earlier today, he spoke with the president of Poland. Obviously, we've seen all the reports there of the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who are going and fleeing and going into Poland.

But it also comes as they are watching very closely this fire at the nuclear power plant after there's this attack last night, which the White House has been monitoring. President Biden was on the phone with President Zelensky about this last night, checking to making sure there are no elevated levels of radiation there.

COOPER: Yeah, we also pointed out, in terms of Nordic countries, Sweden actually sending weapons to Ukraine, which is -- that's a big deal for Sweden to do. We've seen so much of a sea change really in European Union, the European Union and other countries like Switzerland as well.

COLLINS: Yeah.

COOPER: Reversing long standing policies in order to aid Ukraine in this last week.

I want to go back to Alex Marquardt, and, Alex, I apologize for interrupting you before. You were talking about some of the latest images we have seen of really just a number of residential communities, towns in eastern Ukraine near Kharkiv, that one small little town that seemed to be decimated, a village, really, a lot of residential houses where people, Dan Rivers, former colleague, who is now ITV or ITN, were showing us refugees from Kharkiv and other areas had gone seeking safety and it's been seemingly obliterated. We're seeing a lot of residential areas attacked really throughout the country.

MARQUARDT: We are. And one of the most disturbing pieces of news that we got today is in that suburb of Kyiv called Borodyanka, which is about 30 miles northwest of here, the authorities are saying there could be as many as 100 people buried beneath the rubble after an attack on March 2nd. Now, that was two days ago. They are not able to get to those people who are under the rubble because of the constant shelling, they say.

The scenes out of there are just horrific. A residential building has a hole punched right through it. That's where it's believed the 100 people may be.

We heard from a foreign minister of Ukraine saying that there are many dead there over the course of two days of fighting. And these are scenes that I was saying to you, Anderson, and that was then echoed by the Secretary of State Antony Blinken that we have seen Russia inflicted on Chechnya and inflicted on Syria and now we're seeing the same happening in cities and towns all across Ukraine. These residential buildings, schools, hospitals, administrative buildings have been absolutely destroyed.

And that is why we heard President Zelensky calling for a no fly zone. As much as Europe has been supporting with huge amounts of weaponry and funding, they are drawing the line at a no fly zone. Europe and NATO -- well, it would come under NATO. So, NATO saying there's no chance of a no fly zone because that would essentially bring NATO into the fight.

They have said they wouldn't put boots on the ground, but now, they are saying they will not put planes in the sky because that could cause a situation that could escalate and just get out of control -- Anderson.

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COOPER: NATO plane shooting down Russian planes -- that's obviously direct confrontation.

Alex Marquardt, Kaitlan Collins, appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Now to the south of Ukraine where Russia's invasion has been especially brutal and successful in recent days. The port city of Kherson now under Russian control. Residents of Mariupol are facing what is described as a humanitarian catastrophe according to that city's mayor. Now, people in Ukraine's biggest port city Odessa are bracing to be the target of Russia's next assault.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from Odessa.

How's that city preparing?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Now, we saw today the extensive use of the beaches which are normally for tourism turned into sand bags, buried by human chains of the trucks to fortify the city. Even that work stopped short by sirens and people frankly rushing back to shelters.

I should say, Anderson, what we have been seeing across the Black Sea coast is a mixed picture. Kherson is troubling certainly, the first major city to fold to Russian forces. Today, we saw them create what Ukrainian officials sort of refer to as the fake narrative we've often seen from Russian occupying forces, civilian convoy turned up overnight, eight trucks came into the central square, and then we've seen this curious picture. A Russian TV crew there to try to observe the Russian military heading out aids to assuage the crisis born on by looting by Russian troops often, many in the town talking about acute shortage of food and medicine.

But other video showed locals hostile towards that aid operation, telling them they weren't needed and that should go. And that shows the failure frankly of this bid by Russia to create its rather staged, flawed narrative, where it tries to show that they are the ones fixing the problem they've initially caused.

Some other news too, Anderson, we've heard in the last hours or so. In Mykolaiv, a very important port city on the Black Sea. We were there a couple of days ago to see the acute nature of the Russian bombardment. We heard from the governor there of that particular region that they have had some success. They say in pushing Russian troops out of the center of Mykolaiv. They say the fight still ongoing but a town that looked very

vulnerable a matter of days ago now appears to be having some change in success.

Here, though, Odessa, very nervous. The amphibious landing everyone's been talking about could happen at any specific point. We heard of an Estonian cargo ship that had been sunk out in the Black Sea. Ukrainian officials saying that was from Russian shelling, a bid essentially they said to use it as some kind of civilian cover for an amphibious landing.

That will be an enormous operation into a city that's densely populated, ready I think to some degree to repel and best at they can, but also very fearful of the kind of brutal tactics Alex was talking about that we've seen in Chechnya, we've seen in Syria, even though they masqueraded of late just trying to suggest these are precision bombs in a very populated area like this, it could be ghastly. And I think Odessa is hoping that something will stop the onslaught here before it begins -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yeah. Nick Paton Walsh, appreciate it. Thank you.

I want to go back to Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: All right. Anderson, thank you. We'll get right back to you.

CAMEROTA: So, we have watched the bravery of the Ukrainian resistance all week. Civilians fighting off Russian forces with sand bags, with Molotov cocktails. Up next, one man who is preparing himself to fight.

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BLACKWELL: Diplomats are increasingly concerned about a new power plant in Ukraine, not just diplomats, safety experts as well. Russian troops seized the plant overnight. It's largest in all of Europe.

Russian shelling set parts of the complex on fire, and although Ukrainian authorities say radiation levels appear normal, the company said management is working at gun point.

Joining us now is national security and nuclear policies expert Joe Cirincione. He's the author of "Nuclear Nightmares: Securing the World Before It is Too Late". He's also a distinguished fellow at the Quincy Institute and served on the International Security Advisory Board for Secretaries of State Hillary Clinton and John Kerry.

Joe, welcome to you.

We heard from the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.N. that the building here at the Zaporizhzhia power plant is damaged and safety inspectors are not allowed to access the site. What's your biggest concern about that site? JOE CIRINCIONE, AUTHOR, "NUCLEAR NIGHTMARES: SECURINGH THE WORLD

BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE": Well, we dodged a nuclear bullet last night but there's no guarantee we'll dodge it again or we'll dodge the next one at the next nuclear plant that the Russians storm. I am worried both about the physical integrity of the facility. I'm worried that we have tanks firing streams of bullets into these facilities sending flares into these facilities.

It's not so much a question of whether you can compromise the integrity of the concrete structures, although tanks and artillery are certainly capable of pulverizing concrete structures. Just look around Ukraine today. It's also a question of whether the electricity can be maintained. The disaster of Fukushima in 2011 that I followed closely was not a question of the facility being compromised structurally but the earthquake cut off the main power supply and then the tsunami came in and knocked out the reserve power supply.

If something like that happens at one of the plants, you could see the cooling system break down, the fuel rods heat up and looking at meltdowns like we had at Fukushima.

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Possibly a build up of hydrogen gas, exploding the facility like we had at Fukushima.

So, you're worried about all of these threats. There's many ways it just can get catastrophic, very quickly.

CAMEROTA: Joe, here again, I ask the question I've been asking all week, which is what is Vladimir Putin's end game. If there's a nuclear accident or nuclear explosion, obviously, that hurts Russia as well. So, what -- what is he thinking now?

CIRINCIONE: Yeah, I -- thank you, Alisyn. I don't think that Putin intends to cause a nuclear accident. But he does want to terrorize the population of Ukraine and he's doing that. He just wants to cut off the electrical supply. So, you seize an electric power plant.

Now, if this was a coal plant or wind farm and you cut it off or blew it up, it wouldn't matter. But this is a nuclear facility. This thing has to be maintained at a high level of integrity at all times.

Anything like this is unprecedented. No one has ever attacked a nuclear power plant in the history of the nuclear age, not even during wars in the Middle East. No one has attacked a power plant.

We're seeing this for the first time and we could see it repeated. Remember, they have 15 nuclear power plants in Ukraine. You know, I don't want to be alarmist, I don't want to scare people, but I follow the advice of the director general of International Atomic Energy Agency, Rafael Mariano Grossi.

You look at his Twitter feed. He's extremely concerned, he says. The facilities are at severe risk. The Russians are not respecting the fundamental principle that the integrity of these plants must be maintained at all time. We're in deal trouble here and afraid it's going to get worse.

BLACKWELL: Explain for our viewers the vulnerabilities of these workers at gun point. These are not people you want to be stressed or overstressed working around this type of technology.

CIRINCIONE: That is exactly right, Victor. That is exactly right. You think these tank commanders know how to run a nuclear power plant. Do the political operatives traveling with the Russian force know how to run a nuclear power plant? Is there any indication that any of the Russians have any idea what they're doing here? No.

That's why the director general of the IAEA wants to go to the plant. He's urging them to go -- to let him in to the plant, to let the IAEA insure the safety of these things.

You know, the people at Chernobyl didn't intend to cause an accident. The people at Three Mile Island didn't intend to cause an accident. But accidents happen under perfect condition.

And this is war. This is an act of terror by these Russian forces. Even though they're wearing Russian army uniforms, this is a terrorist act against a nuclear power facility that could lead to a mass destruction event. We should be deeply concerned about what is going on in Ukraine overall, but particularly at its nuclear power facilities. I'm afraid our nuclear nightmares in Ukraine are multiplying.

CAMEROTA: Joe Cirincione, thank you. I don't think you can be too alarmist when it comes to a possible nuclear accident. So, thank you very much for all of your expertise.

OK, round two of Russia-Ukraine talks produced a deal for a humanitarian corridor but a Ukrainian official says Russia will not agree to a cease-fire. So, how's that going to work?

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