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Civilians Struggle to Escape as Russia Bombs Evacuation Routes; U.S Working With Poland on Deal to Provide Jets to Ukraine; Zelenskyy Says, Russia's Heavy Shelling is Deliberate Murder. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 07, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from Lviv, Ukraine.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill in New York.

The growing humanitarian crisis in Ukraine is our focus this morning as Ukraine accuses Russia of targeting civilians trying to flee the country. Just this morning, Russia announced a cease-fire at a, quote/unquote, humanitarian corridor for four Ukrainian cities where shelling is too dangerous to evacuate. Ukrainian authorities, however, pushing back because some of those proposed routes actually forced civilians to evacuate to Belarus and Russia.

SCIUTTO: And as more Ukrainians, civilians lose their life in this conflict, we're learning the U.S. is working on a deal with Poland to send Soviet-era fighter jets to Ukraine to help bolster the Ukrainne Air Force and other aid coming in. A senior U.S. official tells me the U.S. and other NATO members have so far sent some 17,000 anti-tank missiles, 2,000 stinger anti-aircraft missiles, the bulk of that coming since the invasion started here just 12 days ago.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken is doubling down this morning that NATO will defend every inch of the alliance's territory and warning of the desperate situation right now facing many Ukrainian civilians.

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ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Women and children, the elderly, wounded civilians, people with disabilities, are trying to escape cities where there's no heat, no electricity, relentless bombardment and where they're running out of food and medicine. And there are continued to be reports of attacks on Russian forces on agreed upon humanitarian corridors.

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SCIUTTO: Joining me now is the deputy mayor of Mariupol, the city in the south of this country, Sergei Orlov. And, Mayor, it's good to have you back on.

When we spoke on Saturday, you told me that you believe Russia was deliberately targeting one of those humanitarian corridors out of your city, killing civilians. Have you seen more of that since then?

DEPUTY MAYOR SERGEI ORLOV, MARIUPOL, UKRAINE: Hello. We received a lot of confirmation that their target does not change, so today is our third attempt to establish a humanitarian corridor. And the city council, we're absolutely ready. We are ready to be able to aid up to 2,000, 3,000 citizens per day, but we need cease-fire in Mariupol, and we need a safety route.

I should tell that from that period, we decreased our opportunity to evacuate our citizens because Russia bombed our buses. So, on Saturday, we had the opportunity to evacuate 5,000 or 6,000 per day but 29 big municipal buses were bombed by Russian aircraft and artillery.

So, today, we're also ready bit our opportunity is a little less. But until that period, it does not have a cease-fire in Mariupol and safety route to Zaporizhzhia.

SCIUTTO: Would you trust a Russian agreement to establish humanitarian corridors given it appears they've broken them in your city and other cities?

ORLOV: It does not stop our efforts to set up such agreement. It's a negotiation between the Ukrainian part and Russian part on high level. As the city council, we just do our best to provide our humanitarian help to our citizens and to evacuate. We believe that it will be possible because from that period of situation, it changed and at the moment, there is no humanitarian crisis.

[10:05:00]

We're faced with (INAUDIBLE).

We're absolutely sure the name of Putin and the Russian army to kill as much citizen as possible.

SCIUTTO: Sergei, that is, as you know well, Russia's history. We saw in Chechnya, we saw in Syria and we're seeing more and more here deliberate efforts to kill civilians, it seems, in cities. I mean, if you look at Syria and Chechnya, they leveled entire cities killing thousands. And I wonder, are you concerned that that is Russia's plan here?

ORLOV: We're absolutely sure of this because even this night, we had continuous bombing by aircraft and then we had communication with some of our guys. It's very difficult without cell phone, electricity, water, heating system and so on. But, anyway, we have a lot of signals that, today, they bombed our steel plant, Azovstal, and they destroyed administration building in the ground floor. And then we have a lot of civil people. They know about it and they totally destroy buildings where people are like in bomb shelter. SCIUTTO: Sergei, when we spoke on Saturday, you told me that you had not been able to reach your own family members. You didn't know if they were safe, if they were alive or dead. Have you been able to reach them since?

ORLOV: Unfortunately, no. I have no opportunity to communicate in any way. And I know that the district where my parents live looks like Aleppo at the moment. I have a lot of confirmation and photo from there.

SCIUTTO: Deputy Mayor of Mariupol Sergei Orlov, our thoughts with you and the people of your city, we wish them safety.

ORLOV: Thank you for your support and help. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: We hear those stories in too many cities now.

Well, moments ago, we did learn of a third round of talks between Ukrainian and Russian officials that has begun. Those talks have begun.

CNN Senior National Security Correspondent Alex Marquardt is in Kyiv. Tell us what the current activity in and around Kyiv is right now. We've seen more street battles closer to the city center and I know you and your colleagues have been hearing more explosions. Do you have a sense of how much Russia is advancing?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, it really does appear that Russia is stepping up their efforts to tighten the noose around Kyiv, to lay siege to it and, eventually, of course, try to take it over there, making their main push from the north and from the west of the city. That is where we have seen and heard some intense fighting and intense bombardment earlier today.

That is also where thousands of Ukrainian residents have been pouring out of, seeking shelter and trying to flee. That is where we know the neighborhood, Irpin, has seen shelling by Russian forces just yesterday, as people were trying to evacuate, at least eight people were killed, according to the mayor, including a family of four.

There was a bridge there that had been destroyed to try to slow the Ukrainian advance. Residents of the north and west, they are trying to make their way towards the center of the city to try to get to safety. According to the Kyiv police, some 2,000 people have come out of Irpin, and that includes 200 children.

We've also seen scenes of mass evacuations or attempts to evacuate downtown at the central train station. Our colleague, Clarissa Ward, was there earlier today. And there really does appear to be an intensity, a renewed intensity to try to get out of the city, to try to get to safety, to head west to try to evacuate to countries in Europe to the west of Ukraine. And that is because, Jim, this indiscriminate shelling and bombing of these civilian areas is picking up.

We were just in one yesterday that had been hit by Russian airstrikes, just a small village where we met a man who lost five of his family members. We spoke to him. He was distraught. He was obviously -- he didn't know what he was going to do after losing his wife, his daughter and two others.

Take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

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IHOR MOZHAREV, RESIDENT OF MARKHALIVKA, UKRAINE: (INAUDIBLE).

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[10:10:00]

MARQUARDT: So, everyone now asking themselves, do I stay or do I go? Of course, now, more than 1.5 million Ukrainians have fled the country. The Russians, as you were saying, have declared these humanitarian corridors, but they are mostly leading into Belarus and into Russia, where their troops are invading from. Those are not countries that, of course, Ukrainians want to be in. They either want to stay in Ukraine or head west into Poland and other countries in the west. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Numbers up to 1.7 million and E.U. expecting 5 million.

Sam Kiley is in Dnipro, Ukraine. Sam, it appears Dnipro is headed for that same fate, Russian forces intending to encircle and advance. Are you seeing progress?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There is a report of fighting southeast -- wrong, southeast -- yes, correct -- of Zaporizhzhia. Of course, Zaporizhzhia, the -- 30 miles due south of there, the nuclear power station was captured by the Russians and that's also gives them a bridgehead and a bridge crossing across the Dnipro there, or nearby there.

They've also crossed Kherson, and their concerns that when they finish the battle in Mykolaiv, which is just southeast -- sorry, southwest of Kherson, they could hook up to the western, cut Dnipro off from the rest of the country. That could well be tactically easier for the Russians than attempting to encircle it. Because if the estimates that you've been reporting, and I'm sure they are, Jim, from your sources, that 95 percent of the Russian battle forces are being committed already to the Ukrainian operation, they're going to get more and more stretch with these encirclement efforts.

They haven't managed it in Kyiv or Kharkiv, and this is, I think, in large part, Ukrainians have said this, as indeed have sources in the west, that this is why we're seeing this shift towards wholesale killing of civilians and the smashing of civilian cities.

Now, Mariupol is a town that they have managed to encircle. That is where conditions that we just heard are getting more desperate by the day. And that is a city that has a route out, has been offered by Russia, but into Russian-held territory in Eastern Ukrainian, and then on into Rostov-on-Don, the last route, I think, on earth any Ukrainian would want to take. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Sam Kiley there, please be safe. We can hear the air raid siren in the background.

Well a senior U.S. official tells me this morning that the U.S. and NATO have sent Ukraine 17,000 anti-tank missiles, 2,000 stinger anti- aircraft missiles, the bulk of those coming just since the start of this invasion 12 days ago.

Now a new effort to assist Ukraine militarily is under way, a coordination between the U.S. and Poland that would send fighter jets into Ukraine to help bolster Ukrainian air defense.

I'm joined now by former National Security Adviser, Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster. He's also the author of a timely book in these times, Battlegrounds, The Fight to Defend The Free World." Good to have you back, H.R.

We see the NATO plan here, right? It's to arm the Ukrainians with some pretty advanced weaponry, right, these stingers, Javelins and others like it, perhaps get some fighter jets in there, to sharing intelligence with them. But they've stopped short of a no-fly zone, fearing that that would lead to a war between the U.S. and Russia.

Is that the right call and is it enough to help the Ukrainians push back?

LT. GEN. H.R. MCMASTER (RET.), FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, it's probably not enough. I mean, I'm glad to see it, Jim, and thank you for the great reporting you and your colleagues are doing. It's more important than ever, right, to pull the curtain back on what Russia is doing.

And it's clear, I think it's very clear that what they're doing is just as you reported, they're failing, right, the offensive is failing based on the effective of defenses by the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian army. And so what they're doing now is they're creating these fire bases that they're using to just bombard cities.

And as you rightly use the analogy of Aleppo, or Grozny, right? They're committing mass murder of innocent people. So, we have to contest. We have to help Ukrainians contest the aerospace and maritime domains.

So, these are steps in the right direction but the estimates are, Jim, that the Russians are going to inflict a million deaths on Ukrainian people and create maybe 6 million refugees if they go unchecked. Are we just going to watch that happen? And so we have to balance the risk of inaction with the risk of action.

SCIUTTO: That's my question to you, right, is do we, writ large, end up watching, right? Because when he fails, Putin kills, right? He just levels the cities, Aleppo/Grozny-style. If we see that come to be and sadly that looks to be the direction it's going, the stingers and the javelins don't appear to stop that, right?

[10:15:04]

So, does that put other options back on the table at that point?

MCMASTER: Well, I think we just have to ask the question, right, what more can we do? Stingers are a short range air defense weapon. What the Russians are, they're not really interested in precision fire power, right, they're just interested in inflicting as many deaths as they can on innocent people and increasing human suffering. So, they could fly above the level the stingers could reach.

So, what can be done to provide medium range air defense capability? What can we do to provide air to air capability or, you know, defensive counter air, which is what these MiGs would be if they're provided to the Ukrainians.

But you know, we're going to be talking more and more about the humanitarian catastrophe. What are the land and air and maritime corridors that must be opened to provide humanitarian assistance? And, of course, we talk a lot about control of the air but how about Russia's uncontested, apparently, control of the Black Sea, right?

And so I think that there is a lot more that can be done from a military perspective and from a diplomatic perspective in terms of demands to place on the Russians. And, again, you know, I mean, the risk of inaction is grave, obviously, especially, for the Ukrainian people.

SCIUTTO: So, you have the military aid and, of course, you also have an economic effort here to punish Russia, cut it off from the international financial system and now a next step being considered, which is to stop buying their oil, at least the U.S. stop buying their oil. And as that's happening, discussions with, say, Venezuela to say, hey, let's try to draw you out of Russia's sphere here, and maybe start buying that oil instead. I'm curious what you think strategically about those moves.

MCMASTER: Well, I mean, sure, let's try it. But, I mean, I think what we're seeing is we're seeing this club of authoritarians, right? The Chinese have enabled the Russians here. I mean, just look at the joint statement before the Olympics. Look at that again. Look at the phone call between Putin and Xi Jinping 24 hours before this invasion.

And what we're seeing now is a network of authoritarian leaders who work together. I would include the Iranians in this, Jim. I mean, I think if we reenter into this weak Iran nuclear deal, this is going to be a gift to the Russians as well.

So, we have to recognize that competitions really outside of this immediate theatre of Ukraine are critical to being able to isolate Russia and to prevail. How about producing more American oil? How about producing more American natural gas? There are all sorts of actions we could take right now to increase our infrastructure so that we can actually increase our own energy independence, but also the energy independence of the free world.

The biggest mistake that Germany made, and I think all Germans would acknowledge this now, is to give Russia coercive power over their economy. So, let's align our national security policy with our energy security policy and, obviously, our efforts to reduce carbon emissions as well.

SCIUTTO: H.R., you and I have talked about -- and just quickly before we go, a lot about China. And there was a lot of concern that china would watch the west's response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine for weakness and then perhaps draw the conclusion China could take Taiwan.

Based on what you've seen so far, do you think China is emboldened or sobered by what it's seen here?

MCMASTER: You know, I think it's a mixture, Jim, and it's going to depend on how this plays out. So, what we know that the Chinese are doing right now is they're doing everything they can to throw a lifeline to their friend, Vladimir Putin. Remember, they professed that they're BFFs, right, Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin. They said there are no limits to their relationship.

Well, let's hang that on the Chinese. The Chinese have to realize that what Russia has done and what Russia's behavior is a load stone. It could drag them down economically as well. And for those who are doubting whether or not we should decouple, whether we should restrict our financial flows into China, the scaffolding that holds up their authoritarian mercantilist model, I think those styles should be removed now. We need to look for alternatives. We have to recognize that Xi Jinping, he wants to decouple but on his own terms.

So, let's start making some smart financial and economic decisions and in bolstering our resilience in the free world and stop underwriting, in large measure, Jim, our own demise with China.

SCIUTTO: We're in for a whole new world here. Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, thanks so much.

MCMASTER: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, Ukrainian civilians, as they hunker down and wait for updates on what's happening around their cities, Ukrainian news outlets face incredible challenges to try to keep them informed.

[10:20:02]

We speak with one of those editors, of journalists here, coming up.

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SCIUTTO: Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is accusing Russia of planning, quote, deliberate murder in the shelling of Ukrainian civilian areas. And Ukrainian journalists are working in the midst of that to cover the news, cover the horrors while worrying about their own safety and the safety of their loved ones and friends as well.

[10:25:05] HILL: Joining us now, Sevgil Musayeva, Chief Editor of Ukrainska Pravda or Ukrainian Truth. Sevgil, it's good to have you with us this morning.

As Jim points out there, and we all know as journalists, sometimes the most challenging story that you can cover is one that also impacts you personally, because you trying to keep the worlds separate. But the reality is, for every single Ukrainian journalist, it's very difficult to separate what we are all seeing from back here. How is everyone doing on your staff, first and foremost?

SEVGIL MUSAYEVA, CHIEF EDITOR, UKRAINIAN TRUTH: Good morning. Good morning. Yes, it's incredibly difficult time for Ukrainian journalists and for my media outlet as well, because we are number one media in Ukraine and we are second largest website now after Google. So, more than 6 million people ready that every day and it's a lot of work and it's very hard. It's hard because it's war in our country, it's our own war.

And that's why I say that we are thinking also about our safety because our safety depends on other people will consume this news, will see the truths and will see all important coverage of this conflict. So, that's why we decided to provide our company, our team in two parts, one still in Kyiv, one in the western part of Ukraine because it's probably we'll have a problem with connection, with internet but we need to provide our news.

Also, we have a small part of people who now stay in European countries and they will help us if something will happen. So, it's only one reason who we can work now.

SCIUTTO: How do you keep your team safe? Because everywhere is a potential fire zone now with Russian forces targeting civilian areas, cities. How do you manage to keep them safe?

MUSAYEVA: Of course, we have our security protocol. Of course, we have our information safety because two times per day, we check everyone, what's going on, is it a safe place. Of course, actually, we work from shelters. It is true. I personally spend two days in shelter in Kyiv. And I understood that it's impossible for me to do my work and do my job, because you don't have a good connection with internet, you can't understand what's going on right now. And for me, as an editor in chief, it's very important.

So, that's why our team left two days ago, one of our part of -- who will stay in Kyiv, but we still have some people in Kyiv. Of course, safety reason, we don't share our locations now because we publish -- for example, we published also all the list of people, of soldiers, of military, of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, now in Ukraine, and we understood that there will be more than 100 to 20,000 names in this list. And we deliver this list from our sources. We publish all the very specific information about, for example, Russian oligarchs, the yachts, their airplanes, about where they are. So, that's why we should think about our safety too.

SCIUTTO: Yes, please do, please do. HILL: Stay safe, Sevgil, we appreciate you joining us, appreciate all the work that you and your colleagues are doing. Thank you.

If Russian forces are intentionally targeting civilians, Vladimir Putin could be charged with war crimes. But would the Russian president ever be prosecuted in Hague? Would he ever really be held responsible? We'll take a look, next.

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