Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Calls Mounting for Putin to Face War Crimes Charges; Protesters Across Russia Call for End to War in Ukraine; U.S., Allies to Get Briefing on Humanitarian Crisis in Ukraine. Aired 10:30-11a ET
Aired March 07, 2022 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:30:00]
ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: A family died in front of my eyes, those words from the mayor of Irpin, Ukraine, describing the horrific scene, civilians trying to escape the violence hit by Russian shelling. And I want to warn you, this video we're about to show you is disturbing, it is difficult to watch but it is also incredibly important. It shows the reality, the daily reality, the horror unfolding in Ukraine.
Eight people were killed including the family, the mayor referenced, the family with two children. And it happened at what was supposed to be an evacuation crossing point.
[10:35:00]
The harrowing scenes captured by international media filming at that checkpoint.
Just a short time ago, the mayor of Irpin said of the Russian army, quote, this is not an army. These are animals.
The International Criminal Court has already started an investigation for potential war crimes in Ukraine. I want to bring in now David Scheffer. He was the first U.S. ambassador at Large for War Crimes during the Clinton administration. I appreciate you joining us this morning.
We see that video, the family killed in Ukraine. We see these repeated attacks and I know you've actually said that Putin, in some ways, is making it very easy in terms of these war crimes, these atrocities being documented, and yet, there are real questions about what the consequences, if any, will be.
DAVID SCHEFFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES: Well, Vladimir Putin is leaving his footprints for war crimes, and, frankly, the crime of aggression all over the map in Ukraine. He's self-incriminating himself every single day with almost every public statement that he makes because he's demonstrating that the leadership for the commission of these crimes and, by the way, the example you just showed, there was no military objective anywhere nearby, that was just a hit on civilians, that these kinds of crimes are, frankly, being orchestrated not on by the leadership of Vladimir Putin, but also, of course, by his generals in the field and in Moscow.
He can be brought to justice. It takes an effort, but what we need to be doing and what we are doing and what Secretary Blinken has confirmed is the U.S. government is certainly looking into the documentation of these war crimes, which are indiscriminate assaults on civilian populations, but so many others are. The European Union, various other governments, civil society and most importantly the International Criminal Court, which now has an official mandate granted to it by 39 governments who are state parties to the Rome Statute of the ICC to investigate what is occurring in Ukraine, and it has jurisdiction. The court has jurisdiction on Ukrainian territory. And these are crimes being committed on Ukrainian territory.
Now, if I may, President Putin ultimately, I think, within a few months, probably, will be indicted by the International Criminal Court. It's just not that difficult to establish that type of indictment, for someone in his leadership capacity. Once that occurs, and other generals also are indicted, it will be almost implausible for the massive sanctions against Russia to be lifted until two things happen, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine are restored, that's the big one, of course, and, secondly, until these individuals are actually surrendered to the Hague.
This is what we did in the Balkans with Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic. Serbia was subjected to sanctions until these individuals were surrendered to The Hague for prosecution, and in that case, it took several years.
HILL: I was going to say, the hardest part, right, is to hear about how long that would take, even if justice could eventually come, the lives destroyed in that period of time. I mean, really, it's immeasurable, the numbers.
I also want to ask you about this. So, Russia did not send a delegation to the U.N.'s International Court of Justice in the Netherlands. This was over claims of genocide, his claims in Ukraine today. So, Russia doesn't send anybody. Ukraine's, of course, accusing Russia of acts of genocide, planning acts of genocide. Russia claims that Ukrainian forces are committing genocide in the separatist regions of Luhansk and Donetsk. But the fact that Russia didn't send anyone, what do you make of that?
SCHEFFER: Well, I believe -- I may be incorrect about this, but I believe that they have the opportunity tomorrow to make a presentation before the International Court of Justice. And, of course, then they would have to have a delegation there to make that presentation. They may have just boycotted listening to the Ukrainian delegation, lawyers before the International Court of Justice today. But in any event, this doesn't prevent the justices, or the judges of the International Court of Justice to consider the matter.
The claim at the ICJ, in The Hague, is one that focuses on the authenticity of the word, genocide. The Russians have perverted that word in claiming that somehow the Ukrainian authorities have been committing genocide against the Russian minority in Donbas. I mean, it's just a perversion of the word. It's a complete perversion. And that's very cynical.
[10:40:00]
HILL: David Scheffer, I really appreciate your insight. Thank you for joining us this morning.
SCHEFFER: Thank you.
HILL: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: There are some signs of defiance in Russia over its invasion of Ukraine. Over the weekend, there were large protests in dozens of cities across the country. This was St. Petersburg on Sunday, hundreds chanting, no to war. Those protests are being met with a heavy, harsh response.
[10:45:03]
Thousands of demonstrators arrested so far, this according to an independent monitoring group.
HILL: CNN Senior Global Affairs Analyst Bianna Golodryga joining us now.
As Jim points out, I mean, this is a significant personal risk that people are out there protesting. The other part that's complicating matters is this new Russian law that has effectively shut down much of the independent media, so getting that word out is even more difficult.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: All of the independent media.
HILL: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: I mean, it is surreal for me to wake up this morning and not be able to go on Twitter and see what my friends and brave colleagues and the independent media there in Russia have been reporting because it's nonexistent now. They have all fled the country because they fear for their lives.
And while you see those protests, as Jim mentioned, many of these brave people risking time in prison behind bars, we're seeing hundreds, and I can understand why, right? I mean, it's one thing for us to be sitting here in the west, saying you've got to go out there and rally more support, when you risk lives behind bars and family members being put at risk, you can understand why -- and look at the brutality at the riot police there, you see why you're only seeing hundreds turn out and not the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands that I think you'd really need to see not in just the major cities of St. Petersburg or Moscow but cities throughout the country for this to really make a difference, I think, to resonate inside the Kremlin and really make Vladimir Putin nervous.
SCIUTT: Bianna, the changes we've seen just over the last couple of weeks there have taken away what remain or much of what remained of open society in Russia, shutting down of the independent media, the silencing of these protests, this new law banning false information to be fined by the Kremlin itself. I mean, in your view, is it turning back the clock to Soviet times, right, to kind of close the society that we associate with many decades ago?
GOLODRYGA: I never thought I would say these words, but even during Soviet times, we didn't see things like this. Western media was allowed to report inside the Soviet Union back then. To hear my own parents say they risk fleeing a country with just their young child, that being myself and a couple of bucks in their pockets leaving their families behind and come to the U.S. and the things weren't so bad on the ground there, as they are seeing play out on television is really something.
And it's stark to see what is going on now in Russia and where this could lead going forward. You had Russian officials just a few weeks ago that would go and give interviews to independent media, whether it's Echo Moskvy or Dozhd T.V. Rain. Now, those same journalists who they gave interviews to flee, left the country, risking their lives, fearing that their lives would be at risk here and taking everything with them. And now, they're in different countries throughout Europe.
HILL: To hear you put it in that perspective, right, and to hear what your parents had said about it being worst than it was when it was Soviet Union. Bianna, I appreciate, as always, thank you.
Well, the war in Ukraine is having a very real impact here at home, on U.S. gas prices. You likely saw it over the weekend. The national average, thankfully not those numbers you're seeing, but it is high, well over $4 a gallon, much higher than that in a number of places. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:50:00]
HILL: Right now, President Biden is meeting virtually with the leaders of France, Germany and the U.K. about the war in Ukraine. The U.S and its allies have also called for a U.N. briefing on the humanitarian crisis as we continue to receive reports and video of Russian forces targeting civilians trying to flee the war.
SCIUTTO: Let's speak now to Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth. Richard, there's an idea being bandied about kicking Russia out of the Security Council. Is that farfetched? Is there any basis for this as a protest of the invasion? RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: The ambassador from Ukraine has brought it up publicly in the chamber and, of course, there was no more perverse image than Russia being the president of the Security Council for the month of February while Russian forces invaded a member country. But, really, it's a non-starter I've been told by one or two diplomats, because it's engraved in the United Nations Charter that Russia is a permanent member.
There is a lot of discussion about what happened in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed, Russia took the seat here at the U.N. without a real review. So, it doesn't look like it's going anywhere. One Security Council diplomat said the focus is on isolating Russia here and everywhere and putting as much pressure on as possible on them.
HILL: So, then, Richard, what's next at this point?
ROTH: The U.N. Security Council will have a big meeting later today on the humanitarian crisis. The U.N., many people criticize it, one of the things it does well is humanitarian aid and relief, especially in disasters like this one. So, you're going to hear a lot of venting. You're going to hear a lot of public pressure. And, once again, Russia will be isolated, sitting there listening, and then probably arguing fighting back, saying the world didn't listen when Russia was complaining about Eastern Ukraine in the last five years.
HILL: We will be watching. We know you'll keep us posted as well. Richard Roth, appreciate it, thank you.
[10:55:00]
Thanks to all of you for joining us today. I'm Erica Hill in New York.
SCIUTTO: And thanks so much. I'm Jim Sciutto in Lviv, Ukraine. We appreciate you joining us as we bring you the difficult but important stories from this country in the midst of the war.
At This Hour with Kate Bolduan will start right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN AT THIS HOUR: Hello, everyone, I am Kate Bolduan.
And we do begin with breaking developments on Putin's war on Ukraine. We're just learning new details about a Russian attack that killed 13 civilians at a bakery west of Kyiv.
[11:00:06]
We're going to have more on that in just a moment.
