Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Russian Attack Hits Small Residential Neighborhood; Russia Proposes Ceasefire To Start Soon In Five Cities; Ukrainians Rush To Kyiv Train Station To Escape War; Ukraine Rejects Evacuation Routes To Russia And Belarus; U.N. More Than 1.7 Million People Have Fled Ukraine. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired March 08, 2022 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:01:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes coming to you live from Lviv in Ukraine and right now, we are waking the start of a ceasefire proposed by Russia that is supposed to take effect in five major Ukrainian cities in about two hours from now. It is unclear whether either side will honor that ceasefire.

Now, the cities involved include Kyiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol. These are all places that have endured some of the fiercest fighting since the start of the Russian invasion.

The ceasefire meant to give civilians an opportunity to evacuate via humanitarian corridors, but under the Kremlin's plan, most of those corridors would lead to Russia and its ally, Belarus, where many refugees obviously do not want to go.

The Ukrainian president reportedly calling Russia's proposal immoral, and it was loudly condemned by the U.N. on Monday.

Now, the latest round of talks between Ukraine and Russia, meanwhile, resulted in no breakthroughs on Monday as with previous attempts, and the Russian military has been stepping up its assault on strategically important Ukrainian cities.

The Pentagon says nearly all the Russian troops once amassed outside Ukraine are now inside this country. And you can see there the red strike areas where Russian forces are present, mostly in the Northeast in the South.

Now, in the coming day, Ukraine's President expected to deliver what's being dubbed an historic address to the lower house of Britain's parliament, Volodymyr Zelenskyy was seen in his own office significantly on Monday for the first time since Russia invaded.

He says he's not leaving. He's not hiding and he is not afraid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We are all on the ground. We are all working. Everyone is where they should be. I am in Kyiv. My team is with me. The territorial defense is on the ground. The servicemen are in position.

Our heroes, doctors, rescuers, transporters, diplomats, journalist, everyone, we are all at war. We all contribute to our victory which will definitely be achieved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Russia's indiscriminate shelling has trapped hundreds of thousands of civilians in what is left of their cities and towns many now without food, water or electricity. Moscow denies deliberately targeting civilians but scenes across Ukraine challenge that claim on a daily basis.

Here's CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Tearing up the broken debris of a shattered home. This is the devastation caused by a Russian attack on a residential neighborhood in a small Ukrainian attack. Bila Tserkva, 50 miles south of the Ukrainian capital is nowhere near the frontlines. But it has felt the rage and the pain of this war.

Well, we've come inside one of the houses that was affected by apparently random artillery or rocket fire into this residential neighborhood. You can see it's just shattered the lives of the family here.

Well, look, the windows have all been blown out obviously, all their belongings have been left behind as they sort of got into hiding, a picture up there seem to be of the people who lived in here, it is a family with some children.

Apparently, they've survived this, which is good. But of course, when you look at the situation and the way that Russians have been shelling residential areas across the country, so many people haven't survived. And this is interesting -- come over, look, it is a two-bedroom. You see over here. Look, the bunk beds, the roof that's fallen down onto the -- onto the top of them when that shell hit. And of course, in the panic and in the evacuation, the kids have left all their -- all their toys up here.

[00:05:22]

CHANCE: And it just shows you that no matter where you are in this country, with Russia attacking towns and cities across it, lives are being shattered.

Stanislav (PH) is a close friend of the family who were nearly killed in their beds here, godfather to the three children who escaped with their lives.

Now, he has one request, he tells me, for the United States. Please close the skies over Ukraine, he begs, if we can just contact NATO and ask them this, everything will be fine. Otherwise, he warns Putin will cross Ukraine and threaten the whole of Europe.

In a bunker under the town, it's terrified children, singing Ukraine's national anthem that keeps them calm and as Russia invades, a whole generation of Ukrainians is being united by this war together as they shelter from the horrors above.

Matthew Chance, CNN in Bila Tserkva, Ukraine

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: All right, I want to bring in former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark now who is with me from Little Rock in Arkansas. Good to see you again, sir.

There is increasing evidence that while, you know, Russia is pounding Ukrainian cities and making some advances. At at the same time, they appear to be having some real trouble in the field in terms of logistics and resupply, and so on. How do you think that is impacting their battle plan?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think the Russian forces are having a great deal of difficulty providing resupply, regrouping, reorganizing. The trackability has been bad for the last week and a half in the North. In the South they're making better progress but they don't have the mass. They don't have the organization or the logistics even the South to keep the pressure up and do the kind of campaign that I'm sure that the Russian military must have promised Mr. Putin and Ukrainian resistance has been tough, and our resupplies thus far are getting in for the Ukrainian forces.

So, I think the Russians are in for a tough time. In the north, of course, they'd like to bring their heavy artillery in closer to Kyiv to put it under greater artillery bombardment. But they simply can't get it there because Ukrainians are going forth. They're disrupting the columns, they're taking out individual vehicles and captured a number of vehicles that they've turned against the Russians towards a real fistfight on the outskirts of Kyiv, that's 12, 15, 20 miles out from the center of the city. And they want to close in much closer than that to use their heaviest weapons.

HOLMES: Yes, though the Ukrainians being very nimble, sort of striking and hitting individual targets and moving on, which seems to be very smart. Vladimir Putin, as you know, he's not the type to back down or, or even look like he's backing down. What are the risks when a man of that mindset feels cornered or feels that he might suffer at home because of the war not going to plan?

CLARK: Well, we don't know, he's not actually backing down at this stage. What he's actually doing is like, doing these negotiations and offering humanitarian corridors, he's basically distracting us. He's stalling. He's putting Zelenskyy under pressure. And he'd like President Zelenskyy to fall and say, OK, you've killed enough people, OK, you can have my country. President Zelenskyy is not likely to do that.

And so, what Putin is doing is he's buying time offering these humanitarian corridors is going to be coughed up in some future war crimes trial, and he's going to say I gave them a chance to leave and they wouldn't leave. And these kinds of arguments will play out.

But one thing about him, he's watching us very closely.

HOLMES: Yes, you're right. And when we look -- when we look at what is going on on the battlefield and the shelling that we're seeing, I was speaking yesterday to a war crimes expert, and we spoke about the chances of Vladimir Putin himself being indicted, normally a difficult thing to do when you've got to trace culpability for a specific instance to a leader. But this expert said Putin is actually making it easy for prosecutors with his own public comments laying out his capability. Do you think he could be indicted?

CLARK: Right. Well, it is going to -- there is evidence it's going to be collected. The fighting is tough but there's a lot of video. This is not like 1942 or 44, where nobody can really record what's happening. Everybody is recording what's happening and it's coming out, does have to be assembled, but it will cause real trouble.

[00:10:12]

CLARK: In the meantime, NATO has to do what's necessary, not NATO, but the individual members of NATO, have to do what's necessary to help the Ukrainians stay in the fight. That's the key. While sanctions are escalated, and Putin is put under more pressure at home.

HOLMES: Yes, if it comes to it, do you have confidence the Ukrainians who hold the advantage of being inside the capital, not the attackers, do you think they can hold Kyiv? What preparations would they have made to defend and repel an entry?

CLARK: They've had several days now to fortify Kyiv. They didn't start early and there was a lot of concern at first, but they repulsed the early efforts to sort of jump in and seize it by surprise. There's no surprise now.

So, there are multiple lines of defense, no doubt in Kyiv, and their weapons distributed and people will fight, they'll block the major avenues of approach despite artillery fire, rocket fire, whatever comes in.

If the -- if the Russian forces get closer, though, it will be an awful lot of heavy fire put on Kyiv before the ground forces or the Russians try to close in again. They learned the lesson.

HOLMES: Yes, that is the great fear if that happens, you can only imagine what the civilian casualties could be.

General Wesley Clark, always a pleasure. Thanks for the analysis.

CLARK: Thank you.

HOLMES: All right. Well, CNN's Clarissa Ward went to a train station in Kyiv on Monday as families hurried to escape the Russian assault.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): At the Kyiv central train station today, a crush of people trying to escape as Russian forces hit closer to the capital. Many here have just been evacuated from the hardest hit areas. Few know where they are going next.

Ala (PH) and her family made it out of the Kyiv suburb of Bucha early this morning, leaving behind her 81-year-old grandfather.

He didn't want to come with us. He decided to stay, she says. He's old and he can't run very fast and we had to leave so quickly. I don't know what is happening there now. It's so scary.

This is what remains of the place she calls home. Burned out husks of Russian armored vehicles, entire apartment blocks destroyed.

I don't know how you can shell peaceful people. We never wished harm to anyone. We were friends with Russia. We have relatives in Russia, she says, they just want to erase Ukraine from the face of the earth.

It's that fear that is fueling a sense of desperation here.

So, the minute they announce the next train going West, you can see everybody scrambles to try to get on it.

Down below, the platform is packed. The people remain calm, they rush in to help an exhausted elderly woman who has fallen on the track. Close to departure time, confusion sets in. Another train arrives and people run across the tracks, hoping to catch it. Finally, the train to Lviv arrives. Pushing and shoving as people jostle for space.

Let the women and children go first, one man shouts. Another weeps as he hugs his wife goodbye.

Sonya (PH), I love you, he calls out. He waits for the train to leave. Eyes locked on the window for what may be his last look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Powerful reporting there from CNN's Clarissa Ward from Kyiv, the capital.

We're going to take quick break. When we come back on the program, amid the destruction here in Ukraine, Russian families are looking for soldiers who've gone missing and they've got an unlikely ally in that.

Also, the refugee crisis growing by the day, the number of people fleeing this war, now nearing two million.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) IVAN WATSON, CNN, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Imagine if you had to pack up your children, your pets, your belongings into a single suitcase and flee your home and your country on a moment's notice. That is what has happened to all of these people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:18:58]

HOLMES: Welcome back. The U.N. says more than 1.7 million people have fled Ukraine for other countries since Russia invaded but the crisis expected to get much worse. The European Union's foreign policy chief warning the E.U. needs to prepare for five million refugees from Ukraine as the Russian bombardment intensifies.

Meanwhile, Russia proposing evacuation corridors leading out of five besieged cities including Kyiv, Kharkiv and Mariupol. But Ukraine rejecting the idea so far since most of those routes lead only to Russia, and its ally Belarus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGIY KYSLYTSYA, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: According to available information from my capital, Russia has undermined arrangements on humanitarian corridors for tomorrow.

Russian side has already sent us a letter with routes to Russia and Belarus only. I call on the Russian side to reverse to the previously agreed routes to allow Ukrainian and foreign citizens to leave for Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[00:20:08]

HOLMES: Now, tens of thousands of Ukrainians are fleeing to another former Soviet Republic. The U.N. says more than 82,000 refugees are in Moldova, but many more have also passed through that country to other countries in Europe.

CNN's Senior International Correspondent Ivan Watson is there. Here is his report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WATSON (voice over): The fastest growing refugee crisis in Europe since World War II, spilling across the borders of the former Soviet Union. More than 1.7 million Ukrainians leaving everything behind and now relying on the kindness of strangers.

People like this grandmother who says a Russian strike destroyed her family's home in Mykolaiv on Friday.

I never thought the day would come when we would have to run away with these little kids, she says, holding her 4-month-old granddaughter.

Nearly everyone here left their husbands, fathers and sons behind to defend their homes. Mothers with young children now on their own in a foreign country.

Imagine if you had to pack up your children, your pets, your belongings into a single suitcase and flee your home and your country on a moment's notice. That is what has happened to all of these people.

Moldova, a small relatively poor former Soviet Republic, opened its doors to the refugees, providing free transport, hot meals and shelter to tens of thousands of Ukrainians, says the country's prime minister.

NATALIA GAVRILITA, MOLDOVAN PRIME MINISTER: So about three-fourths of the refugees are actually staying with families. A lot of Ukrainians have friends or relatives in Moldova but regular people have taken in Ukrainian families into and invited them into their homes.

WATSON: Complete strangers.

GAVRILITA: Yes. Absolutely.

WATSON: This woman is traveling alone. She said she came from Kyiv and it took nine days to get here. She has family waiting in Moldova.

The woman is headed to meet relatives here in an arena in the Moldovan capital.

This is one of the consequences of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, hundreds of Ukrainians who have taken shelter in a stadium in Moldova. This, a temporary stop, a place to pause and process their new reality.

These women tell me, they still can't believe the Russian military would shell and bomb their home city of Kharkiv, a city where almost everyone speaks Russian.

After all, Putin claims he's protecting Russian speakers from Ukrainian nationalists.

They say, look, look where the Russian speaking people are. They are all sleeping here.

This observation echoed at the border by 65-year-old grandmother Tatiana Patrisiana (PH). We watched the Russian T.V. channels and they have it all backwards, she says. They say the Russians are heroes defending us. Look here, how they're liberating us. Is this a liberation, she asks, if I'm running away with a little baby like this?

She joins the crowds lining up into waiting vans, one of tens of millions of Ukrainians now facing a very uncertain future.

Ivan Watson, CNN, on the Moldovan border with Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now, if you would like to help people in Ukraine who might be in need of shelter, food, water, warm clothing, do go to CNN.com/Impact. So far, 40,000 donors have raised more than $3.2 million.

All right, after leaving for Ukraine. That's the last some Russian families have heard from soldiers but one group trying to change that and look at their efforts to find information on missing soldiers. That's when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:27:47]

HOLMES: Welcome back to the program, more details now on our top story, another attempt to evacuate civilians from five of Ukraine's most besieged cities could soon get underway. Cities like Kharkiv, which you're looking at right now, where entire homes and apartment blocks have been reduced to rubble by Russian airstrikes and artillery.

Russia proposed the ceasefire plan, which would start in the next 90 minutes or so. But right now, unclear if either side will actually adhere to it.

Now, this comes as Russia's attacks on Ukraine intensify with heavy fighting reported Monday near the capital Kyiv and around cities to the South.

One senior U.S. Defense official saying nearly all Russian troops who were once masked alongside Ukraine's border, and now inside that border in this country.

Now, the red striped areas there on that map show where Russian troops are now present.

Meanwhile, the United Nations reporting more than 1.7 million refugees have fled Ukraine in less than two weeks. That is a staggering number in a very short timeframe. The E.U. warning that the number could eventually reach five million.

Now, for others who have tried to reach safety their journey cut tragically short. Several evacuation attempts over the weekend fell apart within hours after Russian troops were accused of shelling the vary escape routes they'd often -- offered to keep open.

New videos showing civilians making it out of a pin. This is a Kyiv suburb on Monday, one day after local officials said several people, including one family were killed literally as they tried to escape.

Now, we've also seen pushback over the routes that Moscow is proposing, many of which lead to Russia and Belarus. Ukraine's president suggesting Russia's promises to protect civilians are nothing more than propaganda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENSKYY (through translator): There was an agreement on humanitarian corridors. Did it work? Russian tanks worked instead rushing grads. They even mined the roads which was agreed to transport food and medicine for people and children in Mariupol. They even destroyed the buses that have to take people out. But at the same time, they are opening a small corridor to the

occupied territory for several dozen people, not so much to Russia as to propagandists. Directly to the TV cameras, like that's the one who saves. Just cynicism, just propaganda. Nothing more, no humanitarian sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[00:30:25]

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Now the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations says it is, quote, "clear Mr. Putin has a plan to destroy and terrorize Ukraine."

But not all Russians see Ukrainians as their enemies. Some just want their loved ones who were ordered to Ukraine to come home.

CNN's Alex Marquardt spoke with workers at a Ukrainian hotline, hoping to give families of Russian soldiers information on what might have happened to them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE}

GRAPHIC: Hello, is this where one can find out if someone is alive?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: Hello, do you have any information about my husband?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: Sorry to bother you. I'm calling regarding my brother.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): These are the voices of Russians. Parents, wives, siblings, desperately searching for answers. Calling to find information, anything, on Russian soldiers they've lost contact with, who are fighting in Ukraine, who may be wounded, captured, or even killed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE}

GRAPHIC: When was the last time he contacted you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: On the 23rd of February, when he crossed the border (into Ukraine). UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) GRAPHIC: Did he tell you where he was going?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: He said towards Kyiv.

MARQUARDT This Russian wife, like many others, has turned to an unlikely source for help. The Ukrainians. In a Ukrainian government building, Kristina, which is her alias, is in charge of a hotline called Come Back from Ukraine Alive, which Ukraine's interior ministry says has gotten over 6,000 calls. Kristina asked that we don't show her face.

(on camera): Your country is being invaded. But you also feel the need to help these Russian families. Why?

KRISTINA, HOTLINE OPERATOR: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: We will help find their relatives who were deceived and who without knowing where and why they are going -- find themselves in our country. And secondly, we will help to stop the war in general. They don't know what's actually going on in Ukraine. So the second goal of this hotline is to deliver the truth.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): The Russian relatives who have called this hotline say they haven't heard from their soldiers since the invasion. The hotline, which Russian families have found on social media, or through word of mouth, gave CNN exclusive recordings of a number of the calls.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: This is not our fault. Please, understand that they were forced.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: Yes, I understand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: I also want this to end. I want everyone to live in peace.

MARQUARDT (on camera): What are some of the calls that stick out to you, that you remember the most?

KRISTINA: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE}

GRAPHIC: A father called.

MARQUARDT: It's OK.

KRISTINA: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: He said, "Our children are being used as cannon fodder. Politicians and VIPs are playing their games, solving their issues while our children have to die."

MARQUARDT: These are the notes from one of the calls. And in fact, this call came from the United States, the relative of a young Russian soldier, trying to find him.

She told the Ukrainians that his parents are no longer alive, that the grandmother in Russia is quite sick. We have his birthday. He's just 23 years old, and he was last known to be in Crimea, right before the invasion.

Now, the Ukrainians don't have any information on him, but, if they do find him or get some information, they can then call his aunt back in the United States.

(voice-over): Data from the hotline shows thousands of calls, not just from all across Russia, but also from Europe and the United States.

(on camera): Hello, is this Marat (ph)?

MARAT (ph), RELATIVE OF RUSSIAN SOLDIER: Yes, it is.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): We got through to three relatives in the United States of Russian soldiers believed to be in Ukraine, who called the hotline, including a relative in Virginia, of one who also found the soldier's I.D. and photos on a channel of the social media app Telegram, also dedicated to finding the whereabouts of Russian soldiers.

MARAT (ph): We do realize that all the signs are pointing to that it's most likely he was killed in action. But still trying to locate information. Where is the body that can be potentially found. Or maybe, hopefully, he's alive.

MARQUARDT (on camera): Is the Russian Ministry of Defense telling anything to the family?

[00:35:04]

MARAT (ph): The family is trying to not get contacted by anybody, just because everybody is so scared in Russia. Everyone's scared to talk. Everyone's afraid of law enforcement agencies tracking them.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): Marina told us her cousin's parents had no contact with him, no information on whereabouts or on his condition.

(on camera): Have they been told anything?

MARINA, FAMILY MEMBER OF RUSSIAN SOLDIER: No, they called, when they tried to find him, but no one answered.

MARQUARDT (on camera): Is that why you call this Ukrainian hotline?

MARINA: Yes, that's why I tried to call him.

MARQUARDT: Did you get any information?

MARINA: No, nothing. I was, you know, hoping that he was, like, maybe in a prison or something like that, you know, that he's still alive.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): The vast majority of the calls do not result in immediate information for the families.

Back in Kyiv, Kristina makes clear that the call center isn't just designed to offer answers but to galvanize Russians against the war.

KRISTINA: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE}

GRAPHIC: The more people we can share the truth about what's happening in Ukraine with, the more people will go out protesting and demanding to stop this bloodshed.

MARQUARDT: Sympathy for families, but also, one more way to try to undermine the Russian war effort, as Ukraine fights for its very assistance.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, Kyiv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: I'll have much more from Ukraine later this hour. But first, let's bring in John Vause in Atlanta. Hi, John.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hey, Michael, thank you. We'll take a short break now, but when we come back, we'll explain why Russia's energy sector has not been targeted by the U.S. and its allies, even though sanctions would likely be devastating for Moscow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:41:00]

VAUSE: International sanctions continue to rupture business ties between Russia and the West. On Monday, a raft of new companies are now either ending or suspending operations, including Netflix, IBM, even denim retailer Levi Strauss.

But so far, these punitive sanctions have deliberately not targeted Russia's energy sector. And here's why. After the U.S. secretary of state said this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We are now talking to our European partners and allies to look in a coordinated way at the prospect of banning the import of Russian oil, while making sure that there is still an appropriate supply of oil on world markets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Energy prices surged. Brent crude closed on Monday about $125. That's after peaking at more than $130 during the day.

Apart from being a windfall for countries like Russia, which are net energy exporters, there are also fears rising costs of oil and gas could send the global economy into recession.

And so every day, Russia is still piping about $400 million worth of natural gas to Europe, according to the International Energy Agency. The U.S. is much less dependent on Russia for its energy needs, but still, on average, imports close to 200,000 barrels of oil per day. That's according to U.S. government numbers. At the current value, that's about $24 million each day.

That revenue is crucial to pay for Vladimir Putin's war of choice. Oil and gas related taxes made up about half of Moscow's budget this year.

Simon Johnson is a former economist at The International Monetary Fund. He is a professor these days at MIT. He says about paying for Russian oil and gas, it's the equivalent of blood diamonds.

So Simon, thank you for taking time to be with us. Good to see you.

SIMON JOHNSON, MIT PROFESSOR: Good to see you.

VAUSE: So when it comes to Russian gas, exports to Europe right now, seems it's business as usual in a lot of ways. But by not targeting Russian oil and gas, how much is the Europe -- is the U.S. and Europe undercutting their own sanctions?

JOHNSON: Oh, massively and completely. I mean, I think the sanctions, currently, have some symbolic value. But, as you said, half of Putin's budget is oil and gas revenue. It's extremely vulnerable to sanctions.

We already have the financial sanctions in place; we've immobilized the Central Bank reserves. If you hit them with that kind of negative shock, it's a big problem for the Russian economy.

But, on the other hand, what's actually happening, and it's tragic, is that the chaos caused by Putin, including attacks on nuclear power stations, all these attacks on civilians, just massively barbaric acts. That's created a level of uncertainty that's pushed up the oil price.

So the -- the awfulness of this drama is paying for itself, unless and until we imposing sanctions that drive down the amount of money Russia receives from exporting oil and gas.

VAUSE: According to the White House, President Biden spoke by video link Monday with the president of France, Germany's chancellor and Britain's prime minister.

The readout from the White House says the leaders affirmed their determination to continue raising the costs on Russia for its unprovoked and unjustified invasion of Ukraine.

But there doesn't seem to be agreement among those countries, at least, on sanctioning Russian oil and gas, mostly because Europe doesn't really have an alternate for its energy needs, at least not for the time being.

JOHNSON: Well, I think -- I think that's an exaggeration. I mean, if the weather is warming up, they -- they could use a lot less gas. There's a really intense discussion right now, led by the IAEA and others, about how to switch Europe away from Russian gas.

So I think it's a question of timetable and financing, really. They've -- the Germans have made a 70-year strategic error, but they reversed it last week. They realized that -- that Putin has them over a barrel. A bad pun in this case, but really absolutely, literally, true. And it is absolutely vital for the security and survival of Europe to stop Putin's invasion of Ukraine. And the only way to do that is with oil and gas sanctions that actually bite.

VAUSE So clearly, the world economy will pay a price if these sanctions are imposed on Russia. How big will that price be? And is it anything compared to Putin has not stopped at this point?

JOHNSON: Well, that's the right question. Absolutely, John. I think that the cost of not stopping here now is enormous. And in human terms, in terms of the destruction of Ukraine, but also in terms of the old market. The oil price will spike massively.

If Putin attacks another nuclear power station or does anything else outrageous. and I'm sure he's going to do many outrageous things by the time we've finished this interview. It's just completely out of control.

[00:45:11]

So that's your baseline, is massive, incredibly awful behaviors by Putin and the Russian army.

So, on the other hand, what would sanctions to? What's going to happen to world supply and world demand? That's the key.

Will OPEC step up and provide more oil? In which case, I think that we get through this relatively -- relatively smoothly. If OPEC really, really wants to support Russia, well, that's an interesting conversation to it. In that case, it could be a bit more difficult.

And the key here, I would say, is to split Russian oil, which is blood oil, away from the rest of the oil producers in the world and create a price differential. Usually, that price is within a couple of dollars.

Last week, Euro's crude was selling at a 30-dollar discount to Brent. And the more you put on sanctions, the more you play secondary sanctions, which will sanction anyone who touches any oil transaction through the dollar system, you're going to increase that wedge, because it's going to become extremely unpleasant and odious, in a really high-profile way, to do business with Russia, and with Russian oil.

So you can -- yes, world prices may move up. They may move down. The key thing is to drive down the price that Putin's cronies are receiving. That's what reduces the revenue that's funding his -- that's funding this army and these attacks.

VAUSE: It is a discussion well worth having. And we know many people are having this discussion right now, so we'll see what happens. But Simon, thank you so much. We appreciate your thoughts.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

VAUSE: Right now, the exact whereabouts of two-time Olympic basketball champion, American Brittney Griner, remains unknown. So, too, her fate after Russian authorities say she was detained in Moscow's airport last month on drug charges.

More than 25,000 people have now signed an online petition demanding her immediate release. While the Biden administration is working to secure her release, may fear she could now be used as a political pawn by the Kremlin.

Griner has played basketball in Russia during the WNBA off-season for the past seven years. According to a statement by Russian officials, hash oil was allegedly found in her luggage, a crime which carries a ten-year jail sentence.

Well, in Ukraine, it's not just Mums and Dads and their children searching for safety. Coming up, the race to save cultural treasures from Putin's military offensive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:51:19]

HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone, to Lviv, Ukraine.

What you're looking at there is the border crossing from this country into Poland. As we've been reporting, the U.N. now saying 1.7 million refugees have crossed out of this country and into neighboring countries, more than 1 million of those into Poland. And you can see the steady stream of people having to flee their own country, flee this war, flee the bombardment of their homes and cities, carrying what they can and crossing into Poland.

Welcome back. We are just over an hour away from when a proposed Russian ceasefire would begin for five cities here in Ukraine to allow civilians to flee.

The British government says Russia has continued to target evacuation routes for civilians, and this video from Russia's Defense Ministry claims to show its tanks near Kyiv, the capital.

And Russian forces heavily bombarding the Ukrainian capital Monday, with some areas going days now without heat, water or electricity, in what is a frigid winter.

The humanitarian crisis deepening, as we said, as Russian forces target civilian areas and more people flee the war. The European Union says it will begin examining bids by Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova to join the bloc. That is a significant development, too.

All this as Ukraine reportedly says Moscow's proposed evacuation corridors for several cities are immoral. All the humanitarian routes lead directly into Russia or its ally, Belarus, and would require people to travel through active areas of fighting.

Well, it has become clear there is a dwindling number of safe places to take refuge in Ukraine. While civilians consider their options for escaping the relentless attacks, there is a separate effort to protect what's left behind.

Atika Shubert reports now on the rush to safeguard the country's heritage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Racing against time to save Ukraine's cultural treasures. Among them, a 1000-year-old Bible. Ancient manuscripts hastily stored in boxes meant for supermarket bananas, the fastest way to save them from the threat of Russian bombardment.

When Russian missiles hit the historic Holocaust memorial in the capital of Kyiv, national museum director of Lviv, Ihor Kozhan, realized no place was safe. From his now empty museum, he tells us why he ordered the emergency storage of the city's entire collection.

"We see how Russia is shelling residential areas, even people that are evacuating," he tells us. "They guaranteed they wouldn't, but now we can't trust them, and we need to take care of our heritage, because this is our national treasure," he says.

(on camera): It's not just about saving priceless works of art. This is the country's spiritual heritage. These are from the 17th Century, and they're here in the hallway, because the museum has run out of space in its basement.

(voice-over): Even religious sites fear the worst. This mass at Lviv's Cathedral Basilica of Assumption was one of the last before its giant stained-glass windows were boarded up with steel plates.

SHUBERT: Praying for protection in a war where it seems no place is sacred from attack.

Atika Shubert, for CNN, in Lviv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[00:55:02]

HOLMES: All right. A video out of the Ukraine is warming hearts around the world after going viral on social media, and you're about to see why. It shows a little girl named Amelia singing "Let It Go" from the Disney movie "Frozen" inside a bomb shelter in Kyiv, moving many to tears.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMELIA JAIN, UKRAINIAN GIRL: (SINGING IN UKRAINIAN)

(END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: Isn't she adorable? And what a setting.

The video caught the attention of the film's star Idina Menzel, who shared the video and commented, quote, "We see you. We really, really see you."

That's all we have time for this hour. I'm Michael Holmes. I will be back with much more from Lviv in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:00:00]