Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ukraine Accuses Russia Of Bombing Maternity Hospital In Mariupol; Minutes Left In 12-Hour Cease-fire To Evacuate Ukrainians; Ukrainian And Russian Foreign Ministers To Meet Thursday. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired March 09, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello, I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Anderson Cooper is in Lviv, Ukraine, we're following devastating breaking news.

Russia appears to be upping its attacks on innocent civilians.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA (voice-over): You are looking at a maternity and children's hospital. This is in the southern port of Mariupol. Ukrainian officials say it was just hit by several Russian bombs.

You can see what appears to be pregnant women laying there on the ground, trying to escape. Some of these images look almost apocalyptic. The walls, windows, ceilings all blown out. You can see rubble everywhere.

Officials say there are a number of casualties. It's still unknown just how many right now.

And images from outside are no different. You can see some of the victims there, leaving the hospital. Ukraine's President Zelenskyy says there are children trapped under the wreckage.

He is once again calling on NATO to establish a no-fly zone over Ukraine.

And take a look at this, a very large crater in the ground is raising even more questions about what kind of weapon could cause this kind of destruction -- Anderson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes, listen, a kilometer away from a bombed out children and maternity hospital, a city administration building and a university in Mariupol have been identified by CNN as other locations hit by an apparent Russian military strike. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER (voice-over): You can see it there, windows blown out and rubble scattered everywhere. The images are heartbreaking. Streets and buildings reduced to almost nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: We begin with CNN's Scott McLean who is joining me here in Lviv.

What more do we know about the attacks?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just look at the pictures. From Ukrainian authorities and the videos, the many videos coming from the scene -- and Ana described it as apocalyptic -- you look at the crater in the ground, seven, eight meters. It looks several meters deep as well.

Then all of the windows are blown out on the buildings. There is nothing untouched. What really struck me as well, what some of the people are saying in the video.

In one of them someone is saying, look, we're on maximum extend, whatever cars you have, send them here, obviously referring to emergency vehicles.

In another someone is asking where the wounded kids from the maternity hospital need to be taken, which hospital. Obviously they're at the hospital already. You don't expect to have to go to another place.

And, remember, Mariupol is a city that's essentially been cut off from the rest of the country and by this military encirclement. It is really difficult to get supplies in and out; humanitarian corridors have failed in recent days.

And so it is difficult to think of a more miserable place on planet Earth, a place where you don't have power, heat, cell phone signal, the least of their worries and now all of a sudden you have this.

COOPER: We've seen a number of hospitals throughout Ukraine, essentially telling their child patients, if they can get out, just go somewhere else, head further west to a place like Lviv. We've seen kids with cancer being told from the hospitals in Kyiv, Kharkiv, moms just taking their children out of the cancer wards, trying to get them here and then onward to Poland for better treatment.

MCLEAN: To be honest with you, it's not that easy, even to get further west. We speak to people who say it takes several days for them to get across the country, drive from Kharkiv to Lviv, something you could normally do in under 24 hours.

All of a sudden taking four days just because the sheer number of checkpoints, maybe there's damage to the street. You have to go around certain areas. It's taking an enormous amount of time. The trains are not much better, either. It can take you several days to get across. COOPER: And there aren't ambulances to evacuate kids from hospitals

for the most part. Most of the kids in the cancer ward here in Lviv -- I've talked to their parents, they had to get on buses, get on trains just like everybody else.

I want to bring in Sam Kiley, joining us from southern Ukraine.

Sam, I understand you are with refugees -- you were there earlier today. There were reports of Russian troops blocking these agreed-to evacuation corridors.

What's the latest on that?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, behind me here, we just got a bus that literally pulled in this second as you were coming to me.

[13:05:00]

It has come from Enerhodar, next to that nuclear power station seized about a week ago by Russian troops in the first-ever attack on a nuclear power station. These people have been desperate to get out.

And this is only one of two really successful evacuations, at least in the east of the country, a relatively small number of people. There are more buses that have arrived in the last half hour or so, eight or 10 buses here, Anderson. We're told about 700 people.

Almost all of them women and children. Most of the men are staying, behind even though it has fallen under Russian occupation. This was a very touch-and-go process because they were able to leave the town.

And then they got about two-thirds of the way in and were held up by another -- in another town, where the Russians were present. There was a long period of negotiations, very touch and go. And then they hit the road again, arriving here after curfew.

Now these mostly kids and women are going to be processed, registered and then will be put on more modern buses and taken into Zaporizhzhia. We're just on the outskirts of Zaporizhzhia, about 25, 30 miles at most from the closest Russian troops. People very frightened indeed.

But very, very relieved after what they've heard and seen on their social media about what has happened recently today; indeed, with the systemic attack on Mariupol maternity hospital.

But people here, Anderson, arriving exhausted. They've been completely besieged. The nuclear power station has been a source of constant worry to them over the last couple of days. We've heard from the International Atomic Energy Agency, who said they've lost contact in all but the slightest communications over cellular networks with the workers there.

The Ukrainians have alleged that the workers in the control room effectively keeping the lid on nuclear reactors, six of them. They have lost communication with their people. They claim, we don't have independent verification, the workers in the power station are being tortured.

And, at the same time, of course, the Ukrainians are also saying they've lost connections and contact to the workers in Chernobyl, where also there are concerns the electrical power has been cut there. That's an allegation being made by the Ukrainians. We don't have independent confirmation of that Chernobyl aspect.

But these people have come from a town that sits right next door to a nuclear power station that was taken over by armed men. Some of these people, no doubt, were part of a group of civilians, who actually stood on the road for two or three days, protesting -- protesting and protecting that nuclear power station from Russian troops as they came forward, completely unarmed.

And then there was a fight; at least two Ukrainian soldiers were killed in that battle before they said there was a surrender. And now the Russians are in charge. Anderson.

COOPER: Sam Kiley, appreciate that.

And, Scott, on Mariupol -- and again, when we see these images from this children's hospital, what happens to people, anybody who is wounded or injured, in that hospital?

Where do they go in Mariupol?

MCLEAN: To the next closest hospital. It's really unclear what sort of resources they have in terms of water, power, how easy it is to get around the city. Obviously there will be checkpoints, blockades.

Even here in Lviv there's checkpoints and blockages. And this city hasn't been hit by anything and so you can imagine how difficult it's going to be to navigate to some sort of other hospital. And even in the videos that I mentioned earlier, they're asking, where should we send people?

It's not like this is something we see every day.

COOPER: It is horrific. Scott McLean, appreciate it. We'll continue to follow that situation.

Ana, back to you.

CABRERA: It's all so awful. Thank you, guys.

Retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is a CNN military analyst, he was the commanding general of Europe in the 7th Army.

And Phil Mudd was an FBI senior intelligence adviser and a CIA counterterrorism official.

General, this hospital bombing seems beyond indiscriminate killing. This seems targeted and intentional.

Does this change the calculus for NATO and the U.S. perhaps when it comes to resisting a no-fly zone or other direct military involvement? LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I don't think it does yet, Ana. This is something that's the red line. We've talked about the issue of the no-fly zone and the prevention of these kinds of things.

This is the Russian way of war. They will continue to do this. And what we don't know in terms of this targeting of a hospital, of a university, all in Mariupol, is was it an aircraft that dropped a 1,000-pound bomb?

Because that's what the crater looks like to me.

Or could it have been a missile or a caliber cruise missile or any other kind of artillery piece?

It looks like something above 1,000 pound bomb. The problem is this: this is part of the Russian way of war.

[13:10:00]

And it is purposeful in terms of not only terrorizing the civilian population but it also requires manpower to solve these issues. It creates chaos. But it also takes transportation. And it causes the people to say, we've got to get out of here.

So as they're talking about moving out of the area, increasing the refugee flow, we're right now at about 2 million-plus refugees. That could easily spike to 3 million, 4 million, 5 million by this weekend.

When you have that many people running away from a battle site, it requires transportation, medical aid, military police or policemen to sort the convoy. All of those things take away from the military force countering the Russian advances.

So this is planned. It's deliberate. It's to cause terror. But it's also to take manpower away from the insurgency or the uprising by Ukraine.

CABRERA: It's clearly not fighting fairly. This is so inhumane.

Phil, are you surprised --

(CROSSTALK)

HERTLING: No, it's more than not fighting fairly, Ana. It is a war crime.

CABRERA: Yes.

HERTLING: You are specifically targeting civilians, civilian buildings, civilian areas --

CABRERA: Exactly.

HERTLING: -- where there's no military advantage to this.

CABRERA: Exactly.

HERTLING: That is the unique definition of a war crime.

CABRERA: So let me ask you, Phil, about the psychology here, because are you surprised that Russian fighters are willing to do this?

Or are they just following orders from Putin blindly?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think there's two characteristics. One is what you do in a closed circle on the ground, sitting among your partners, saying we were ordered to do this, as you're talking about, these people are enemies of us.

We're taught that they're enemies. When you get in a closed circle, whether it's the people I've faced, Al Qaeda, the Russians, you start to get into a psychology that says what we're doing is right. And nobody can penetrate that psychology.

The second piece, the leadership that you trust and respect is telling you that this is right. I'm not saying that every 18- or 19-year-old hasn't thought through the moral dimensions of this.

I'm saying when you look at the psychology of a person like that, it is not hard to understand how somebody who does not get outside information, has been taught to understand by their peers and by their leadership what you're doing is OK, you must proceed.

This is horrific but the psychology is not hard to understand, Ana.

CABRERA: Guys, stay with me. Vice President Kamala Harris -- just a second, General. I want to come back to you but I want to get in some other news and reporting. We know the vice president is on her way to Poland right now.

The stakes for this trip are even higher, of course, after the U.S. was caught off guard by Poland's offer to transfer MiG-29 fighter jets to a U.S. air base in Germany for the United States to then be the ones responsible for delivering it to Ukraine.

Now the Pentagon wanted Poland initially to make the delivery itself, rejected Poland's proposal. So the U.S. is also bolstering Poland's defenses by sending two Patriot missile batteries to that NATO ally.

The U.S. has scrambled to increase its readiness in the region. The Pentagon has repositioned nearly 15,000 military personnel in response to the Russian invasion. The total number of U.S. troops in Europe is now expected to reach 100,000.

And NATO says it has 130 jets on high alert, more than 200 ships from the Mediterranean to the high north.

A short time ago, Germany announced it will not send fighter jets.

So General, I know I just put out a lot there in terms of the military positioning.

But on this issue of air support for the Ukrainians, is the window of opportunity closing to send Ukraine that help?

HERTLING: Ana, I want to go back again to what you're talking about. The majority of these strikes are being conducted by artillery and missile strikes. It is not an issue of air-to-air fighting.

There is certainly some close air support by the Russians. But the Ukrainian air force is actually very competitive with the Russians. So everyone keeps throwing out the no-fly zone. This is an artillery duel, a long-range strike from missiles and rockets and artillery.

And what Phil said about the psychological effects of this, the young military members, who are pulling the triggers, pulling the lanyards to these devices, are anywhere from 17 miles to 500 miles away.

They don't see the physical effects of these things hitting the ground. They don't have the psychological input. They are being told by their commanders, fire this missile, fire this rocket, fire this artillery piece. So a no-fly zone is not a panacea to stop this kind of bombing.

[13:15:00]

Russia has done this before in many other places, specifically in Syria. The ministry of health of Ukraine last night said they have had 61 hospitals hit. That's doubled and tripled in places like Syria that they have been.

This is the Russian way of war and they have to be stopped. And the only way to do that is to designate, internationally, Mr. Putin as a war criminal, because that is what he is.

CABRERA: Phil, the Director of National Intelligence said yesterday they believe Putin will escalate because, quote, "Putin feels aggrieved" the West does not give him deference and perceives this as a war he cannot afford to lose.

What does that tell you about Putin's motivation?

MUDD: Not a lot. Look, the intelligence guys have to give you an estimate of what they think Putin is thinking. But to analyze what someone thinks, when you're thousands of miles away, you don't have face-to-face access, and what that person might think changes day-to- day is pretty speculative.

Let me give you two pieces of intelligence. Two weeks ago, you're looking at tanks, armored personnel carriers, movements of personnel into Ukraine; you can look at that. You can count it, analyze it, get factual.

Let me contrast that with looking at a foreign leader from thousands of miles away, who may be talking to different advisers every day and changing how he thinks and assessing what he might do in a week or a month.

Look, I think they're right. But whether he decides in a week or a month this is still worth it, I wouldn't bank on that. That is intelligence that has to be done. But Ana, that is really speculative.

CABRERA: General, I want to end this conversation with some images and what strikes me about these pictures you are about to see are the many hats Ukrainian fighters are having to wear right now.

On one hand, they're tasked with killing the enemy and then they're playing the role of protector and comforter and guardian.

Can you just speak to that duality?

HERTLING: I certainly can, because I've seen it in my career with U.S. forces, Ana. But it also gets back to the point of what I was talking about, that these humanitarian issues are balanced with the combat issues.

These soldiers, these Ukrainian soldiers, have gone through an evolution in the last 20 years. They now have an extremely professional force.

How do I know that?

I worked with them. I saw the change over a 20-year period in Ukraine's army. They are more like a Western army now than the Russian army that's invading them. They understand the humanity that's involved.

What a soldier is supposed to do in terms of defending their homeland and defending the people of their homeland, that Russian side is just destroying and killing and attempting to undercut an entire society and its culture.

But I keep going back to the point, you now have soldiers trying to play various roles. They have to make a choice between fighting the enemy and taking care of the 2 million, 3 million refugees that are scurrying out of their towns because of the terrorist attacks that Russia is executing.

That's where it starts getting tough. And just like Russia doesn't have a whole lot of manpower to actually occupy these cities, they're going to continue to bombard them from afar, so Ukrainian forces have to make that decision between fighting the Russians, territorial defense and solving the humanitarian crisis that Putin has distributed to this nation.

That's the tough call for commanders on the field.

CABRERA: General Mark Hertling and Phil Mudd, great to have you both. Thank you very much for your analysis.

So how do you have diplomatic talks with a country that is bombing your people?

Ukraine and Russia are set to hold another round of talks tomorrow.

But is there any hope that Russia is closer to stopping this brutality? We'll discuss with the former foreign minister of Russia.

Plus, separating fact from fiction on the soaring price of gas -- stay with us.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CABRERA: Round four of talks between Russian and Ukrainian diplomats is set for tomorrow. But the first three haven't stopped the violence, clearly. Moscow's demands like Ukraine never joining NATO or acknowledging Crimea as a Russian territory are nonstarters for Ukraine.

I guess what was perceived as the one thing accomplished in the previous talks for humanitarian corridors to evacuate civilians isn't working out as agreed. Ukrainians say Russian soldiers have blocked a large convoy of evacuees near Kyiv today.

Joining us now is the former Russian foreign minister, Andrei Kozyrev. He served as foreign minister under president Boris Yeltsin in the '90s.

Foreign minister, thanks for taking the time. First, I don't understand.

Why wouldn't Russia be honoring this humanitarian agreement?

And what's the point of holding these talks if Russia is not going to hold up their end of the deal?

ANDREI KOZYREV, FORMER RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, Russia is not honoring (INAUDIBLE). There is a treaty between Russia and Ukraine guaranteeing Ukrainian (INAUDIBLE) and territorial integrity. And in a way (INAUDIBLE) guaranteed by America, from Great Britain and Russia, also to include territorial integrity.

But they don't honor those obligations. (INAUDIBLE). And now (INAUDIBLE). Of course, they (INAUDIBLE) and unfortunately this government (INAUDIBLE) but this government is (INAUDIBLE) absolutely unreliable. And negotiations (INAUDIBLE).

[13:25:00]

But I am sure Zelenskyy is a brave leader, a strong leader. He will not sell cheap --

CABRERA: Mr. Foreign Minister, forgive me for interrupting but we're having a really hard time understanding, because your signal is not strong. And so there's a lot of breaks in the conversation.

Let's work to try to see if we can resolve the technical issues, guys.

Foreign minister Andrei Kozyrev, I hope we can reconnect.

Meantime, two weeks into this war, 2 million people have fled Ukraine and that number is set to go even higher. CNN's Miguel Marquez is at a refugee center now in Romania.

What's happening there?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, tens of thousands of refugees are coming into Romania. Bucharest is about to open even a larger refugee center. We will have all of that coming right up.

(MUSIC PLAYING)