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Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta; Russia Bombards Mariupol. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 10, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That is an important change.

Sustaining that, particularly over time, particularly when there's economic pain that's coming in the days and weeks ahead, is a critical component of this. That is what the president and his team are focused on.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: And what the vice president hears in Poland and Romania and reports back important as well.

Thanks for joining us today on INSIDE POLITICS.

Ana Cabrera and Anderson Cooper pick up our coverage right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thank you for being with us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Anderson Cooper is in Lviv, Ukraine, as Russia's horrifying assault on Ukraine enters a third week.

And the highest-level talks yet between the two countries failed to make progress. In places like the southern port city of Mariupol, the heartbreaking toll of civilian casualties is as unrelenting as the Russian bombardment. That city has endured more than a week without heat or running water. And you may remember, a couple of days ago, a 6-year-old girl here died of dehydration.

Each day, the humanitarian crisis worsens. The Red Cross now estimates hundreds of thousands of people have no food, and the desperation has led to fights and looting. A massive crater now lies in the heart of the city center near a park and a theater.

I have to warn you that the next image from Mariupol is graphic and disturbing. The mayor's office there says 1,300 civilians have been killed. And because there are so many bodies, city workers have had to put them in a mass grave stretching 75-feet-long, the dignity of a private funeral just not realistic in a city under siege -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes, Ana, Russian forces continue their march toward the capital, apparently to encircle it and for some kind of a surrender from Kyiv.

It is, of course, coming at a cost. On social media. Ukraine's military is showing this video of Russian tanks disabled and on fire reportedly outside of Kyiv. Ukrainian soldiers say their attack on the column also left the Russian commander dead.

One U.S. official estimates as many as 6,000 Russian soldiers have died in just the past two weeks.

CNN's Scott McLean is here in Lviv. Matthew Chance is in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv.

Scott, the humanitarian crisis in Mariupol really seems to be reaching a head.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, exactly.

And the president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, says that there are aid trucks, there are buses on the way to that city. The trouble is that there's no actual evidence at this stage that they have arrived. It is also not clear what has been agreed, if anything, with the Russians.

It's a point that we keep hitting on because it doesn't seem like anything, really, of any substance has been agreed with the Russians, because you had the foreign ministers today meeting in Turkey. And the Ukrainian foreign minister is still asking to work out some kind of a deal on a humanitarian corridor in Mariupol.

Surely, if that would be worked out, you wouldn't be discussing that already. And so it seems like the Ukrainians right now are acting unilaterally. The Russians are doing what they want to do, which is obviously bombing the city. The local officials there say they're trying to cut it off from the rest of the city.

And according to the International Red Cross, which, again, is supposed to be sort of the neutral party on the ground, they say the situation is absolutely dire. There's hundreds of thousands of people without food. People are being attacked for food.

COOPER: Yes.

MCLEAN: The conditions, I mean, it's freezing cold out here. You wouldn't want to sleep in this kind of a -- kind of conditions. So people are getting sick from that as well. Medicine is running out.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: There was also supposed to be a cease-fire yesterday, and that is when the bombing took place of the hospital, the shelling of the hospital. MCLEAN: There was supposed to be a cease-fire yesterday, but, again,

it's not really clear what exactly has been specifically agreed on by both of the parties.

COOPER: Right.

MCLEAN: It seems like, in some cities, you're having some success, because maybe there's been some local agreement. In other areas, you're not really having any level of success either.

And Mariupol seems to be the one where, no matter what they do, no matter what they say or what they agree, it seems like it's almost impossible to get people out and to get supplies in.

COOPER: Yes, Scott.

Matthew Chance standing by in Kyiv.

Ukraine's military says it destroyed that tank column north of the capital. What more have you learned about that?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, not just a column, but an entire tank regiment is what the Ukrainian authorities are saying that they have destroyed in this place called -- a town called Brovary.

It's about 10 miles to the east, slightly north of that, outside of the Ukrainian capital. And there are these extraordinary images from, first of all, on the ground, that, close up, people taking images with their cell phones of the destroyed armored vehicles and tanks on fire. You can hear a voice over one of the cell phone videos saying: "This is what you get when you come to Ukrainian land."

And then there's these amazing images as well from up above, from a drone that was monitoring the entire scene. You can see the whole column of tanks being attacked from all directions, presumably using anti-tank missiles. And so it was a scene of devastation at the end of it, and yet another, it seems, battlefield success by the Ukrainian forces, as they sort of push back hard on that Russian attempt to surround the capital with armor, and to tighten the stranglehold around it.

[13:05:12]

That seems to be the Russian strategy still, and they are pouring sort of armor into doing that. But, clearly -- and we have said this a number of times, but it's worth saying it again over these images.

Clearly, there was a big underestimation made of the willpower, the strength of the defenses of the Ukrainian forces. That's, of course, been bolstered by the sophisticated weaponry that the armed forces in Ukraine have been getting from Western countries, including the United States. Those Javelin tank missiles from the U.S., they are having a devastating impact on Russian armor.

And, again, this is another example of that. The big question is, what is Russia going to do? The talks, as we have been hearing in Turkey, between the foreign ministers didn't come to anything. The battlefield progress is very slow, and they are getting bloodied, like in this example 10 miles out of the capital.

Will the Kremlin double down? That's the big fear. That's the big danger, I think, for this city -- Anderson.

COOPER: Matthew Chance in Kyiv.

Matthew, thank you, Scott McLean as well.

Let's go back to Ana in New York.

CABRERA: You guys are doing really important work there. Thank you so much.

With us now is retired Major General James "Spider" Marks, CNN military analyst and head of geopolitical strategy at Academy Securities.

General, it seems today we're getting a clearer picture of Russia's assault on Southern Ukraine. Those images from Mariupol show a town just obliterated by bombs, mass graves now being dug, people there really being cut off from the rest of the country. Some people are starving. And the Red Cross says people have started to attack each other for food.

What are your thoughts on the situation, which is clearly becoming more dire?

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, what we're seeing is the Russian forces clearly have not been able to achieve any of their initial objectives.

And so you see them trying to make up for their lack of initiative, their blundering tactical operations with the use of a blunt instrument, just brutal tactics, trying to whittle away, chip away at the Ukrainian will to resist, which to this point has been phenomenally high.

So the images are tragic, they're horrible. It's very, very difficult to watch these. And I need to echo your comments. I mean, the heavy lifting that's being done by this network and your folks on the ground is absolutely phenomenal, because it's bringing the truth in real time for folks to digest.

We can't afford to be spectators, right? This is not a spectator sport. This needs to be corrected.

CABRERA: And we have this new video today that is from just Northeast of Kyiv. I want to bring it back. And I think it's important to note that we verify all these videos to make sure they are authentic and original before we put them on our air.

MARKS: Great. CABRERA: And this is video of what the military in Ukraine claims to be a victory for them, that they defeated this Russian regiment that was here. This tank, they were able to clearly destroy.

And we're told they eliminated the top commander that was part of this operation. How significant is this?

MARKS: Well, it's incredibly significant.

Again, let's be frank with each other. One engagement like this, in the aggregate, has a significant impact on the morale of the Ukrainian forces, and it chips away at the Russian forces desire to resist, but it's one regiment. It's one engagement.

When you see the other video that you all have provided, you see that the Russians are approaching this engagement as an administrative move. Their vehicles are just lined fanny to nose down this road, which makes them a clear target. There's no -- from a tactical guy's perspective, there's no security on the flanks to protect those vehicles.

And so the Ukrainians are picking them off, which is wonderful. You really see the lack of leadership, desire and a sense of pace and momentum on the Russian forces. This is a military that's not standing up to its...

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: To that point...

MARKS: Please, go ahead.

CABRERA: General, to that point, a U.S. officials that 6,000 Russian troops have potentially been killed in action so far.

And just to add perspective there, in Iraq, the U.S. lost about 4,500 troops. That was over eight years. So, this 6,000, if true, happened in just a matter of weeks. What more does that tell you? Does it say more about the strength of Ukraine's fighters or more about problems within Russia's military and their strategy?

MARKS: Ana, it's both. You have summarized it beautifully.

But it also -- I would ask the question, how many of those 6,000 dead Russian soldiers have been identified and then transported back to their families, back to the units, back to their homeland? I don't know.

[13:10:02]

But the images we see is that the Russians are leaving their comrades behind. This is an -- this is unlike anything we have seen. In the U.S. military, we have a warrior's ethos that speaks to never leaving anybody behind. And the Russians don't regard human life, which means, in the aggregate, these kinds of losses are going to eat away at the morale and the readiness and preparedness and the desire on the part of these Russian soldiers.

That, in the aggregate, is going to prove very, very helpful down the road. There's still a lot that needs to be done. But this is important to watch.

CABRERA: It has not wiped out the spirit or the courage of the Ukrainian fighters or the Ukrainian civilians.

I want to show some video just in out of the southern city of Odessa. And these are Ukrainian civilians training to fight. As we look at this video together, General, what stands out most to you?

MARKS: It looks very familiar, I have got to tell you.

This is what the U.S. military has done forever in terms of its support to local nationals in different locations, where they have -- the U.S. has been invited in to try to train and prepare and to increase the readiness of local indigenous forces.

The thing that is -- this is a wonderful video that speaks to the will and increasing capacity. When you have a gap between capacity and will, you have a real dangerous mix in combat. But they're trying to increase their capacity to equal their will.

The one thing you don't see is the chaos of combat. This was an antiseptic training environment. That's great. That needs to be done. The next step is, let's see how these great Ukrainian individual citizens try to come together as a group, come together as a team and apply some combat power to the Russian forces.

CABRERA: And, again, this is in Odessa.

MARKS: Right.

CABRERA: And we have news that a Russian warship is beginning its assault there on Odessa, where we are told five airstrikes have been carried out so far by the Russians.

So, how can Ukrainians -- when we think about them having to try to bring in these civilian fighters, how can they Ukrainians defend against that?

MARKS: Well, not very well.

What's going to probably happen is, the Russians are going to have a successful amphibious operation. They're going to be able to land marines. They're taking advantage of the naval gunfire, the use of their attack helicopters and fighters. They're going to soften the target and they're going to be able to bring some forces from the Black Sea to link up with forces that are already in places like Kherson and that element just north of Crimea.

Ultimately, Odessa will be occupied by Russian forces. I mean, that's the unfortunate truth. But the Ukrainian citizens and forces that are there are going to make it very, very bloody. And over the course of time, that will be a determining factor in terms of how much will the Russians have to stick around and carry this thing through.

CABRERA: We're now hearing about a potentially new threat. The White House has warned that Russia could use chemical weapons. How could that change the game here in terms of how Ukraine fights and NATO potentially helps, and how should Ukrainians prepare?

MARKS: Well, it's a war crime. They're not -- they're banned. They're not supposed to be used in combat. Weapons of mass destruction are over in another category.

If they are used, it's ghastly. It can be deadly. The Russian forces have to put up with it as well, because, if you use chemical weapons, now you're trying to occupy a space that you have completely contaminated. This just continues to pile up all the evidence that's absolutely in front of us that labels Putin a war criminal.

Look, I'm not a lawyer. That doesn't mean I'm not going to talk about it. Putin is in that category of being a war criminal. And international courts have a system by which you identify and then you list these guys. Just think Soleimani. Think Saddam Hussein. And look what happened to those guys.

I'm not saying that Putin is going to be next, because his security apparatus is just suffocating. But if he's in that category of war criminal, he's a person indicted for war crime that makes him a likely target. Let's put that around his neck and let's label him internationally as a war criminal.

CABRERA: General Spider Marks, it's great to have your insights, expertise. I always appreciate our conversations. Thanks for being with us.

MARKS: Thank you.

CABRERA: If the bombing of a hospital isn't enough for the U.S. to send fighter jets to Ukraine, what is?

We will discuss with the former Secretary of Defense and former CIA Director under President Obama Leon Panetta.

Plus, a closer look at one of the most dangerous weapons in Russia's arsenal, an army of trolls spreading lies about brutal attacks on civilians.

Stay with us. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:19:15]

CABRERA: Vice President Kamala Harris is in Poland right now, where, today, she emphasized the U.S. commitment to NATO security, and she accused Russia of committing -- quote -- "atrocities of unimaginable proportions" in Ukraine.

She also reiterated the United States is prepared to defend every inch of NATO territory.

Leon Panetta joins us now. He's the former secretary of defense and former CIA director under President Obama. He was also the White House chief of staff for President Clinton.

Secretary Panetta, thanks for joining us.

In the past couple of days, there's been some disagreement between the U.S. and Poland on sending fighter jets to Ukraine. Putin obviously wants to see daylight between the U.S. and its allies. Does the vice president's visit to Poland effectively address any concerns about that?

[13:20:05]

LEON PANETTA, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, we will see.

I remember speaking to an intelligence official recently about that issue. And he said it was largely symbolic, because, really, our most effective way of going after the Russian air force has been using Stingers, using anti-aircraft weapons. There are some very sophisticated weapons that are available that are laser-driven that are very effective.

If -- obviously, the MiGs would be helpful. But the way the -- that Poland approached it kind of tried to make it very public that they would turn it over to the United States, and the United States would deliver them.

Whatever happened here, communications were not -- did not go well. And I think the United States made the right decision at this point.

CABRERA: So far, the U.S. and other NATO countries have been very careful to avoid direct military conflict with Russia. That's why there was this disagreement over sending the jets even, that we have seen the strong sanctions, the anti-aircraft, anti-tank weapons that have been sent to Ukraine.

I wonder, has the U.S. reached its limit on how it can help Ukraine at this point without getting directly involved?

PANETTA: Well, it's obviously a dangerous moment.

There's a lot of concentrated military force in that area, between what the Russians are doing, the Ukrainians, and also, obviously, the weapons that are being provided by the United States, the other assistance that is being provided. Add to that the reinforcement of our NATO positions in those NATO countries.

One mistake, one miscalculation, one missile that goes astray, and it could obviously escalate this conflict even more. But those in part are the risks involved when you're trying to draw the line on Putin and on Russia. And that's the decision that the United States made with our allies and NATO, that we were going to make him pay a price, and that we were going to stop him. And so we have to continue to provide the necessary aid that the

Ukrainians need in order to put up what is a brave, difficult, and it's been a -- it's been a pretty successful flight to try to stall the Russian aggression.

CABRERA: Stalling, but not stopping. And now we're seeing Putin escalating. And as we have been covering these atrocities on Ukrainians for more than two weeks, we have reached this point where bodies are now being buried in mass graves. This is again in the port town of Mariupol.

And that's where that children's maternity hospital was bombed just yesterday. Before this invasion, you said the lesson from World War II is that, if you don't stop a tyrant now, that, ultimately, you will have to face him later.

So the U.S. doesn't want to escalate this military conflict. But Putin is anyway. What do you see as the threshold for the U.S. to take military action?

PANETTA: I think the most important thing right now is for the United States and our NATO allies to continue to provide weapons, Stingers, Javelins, ammo, whatever is needed to help the Ukrainians continue to put up a strong fight.

That's the most important thing we can do at this point.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: So, you don't think a red line has been crossed?

PANETTA: At this point, I don't think the red line has been crossed. But let's not kid anybody.

For all intents and purposes, we're in a proxy war with Russia. And it may not be direct, but we are providing aid to the Ukrainians to take on the Russians. We have drawn a line on Mr. Putin and on Russia. We have said they have to pay a price for aggression. And that is what is happening right now. Russia is paying a very heavy price.

And, ultimately, our hope is that, by continuing this effort, we can put enough pressure on Mr. Putin to recognize that, ultimately, he's not going to win this war, it is not able -- he is not able to control what's going on in Ukraine, and try to find a ramp to come to some kind of diplomatic resolution.

CABRERA: We talked about the concern over chemical weapons that we're hearing from the White House, from the United Kingdom, the potential of chemical weapons to be used in this war.

Do you think that's what's going to happen? Will Russia use chemical weapons, and would that be a red line?

PANETTA: Well, then, again, Mr. Putin has to make a decision as to how much he wants to escalate this battle.

[13:25:03]

It's not just the United States that has to make that decision. Mr. Putin has to make that decision. And if he resorts to chemical warfare, gas warfare, and those kinds of weapons of mass destruction, in violation of all international rules and standards, then it's pretty clear that Russia has engaged in tactics that go far beyond any kind of recognized approach to these kinds of conflicts.

The United States is going to have to make clear to Russia that they are not to use gas and chemical weapons in this fight. Russia has made threats to the United States about how far we can go. I think we have to make very clear to Mr. Putin how far he can go without getting some kind of retaliation.

CABRERA: Quickly, if you will, because of your unique experience in the past, having been a chief of staff, having been the former CIA director, former defense secretary, you have had interactions with Putin, with people around him.

If you were chief of staff to President Biden right now, what's your advice to him in this moment?

PANETTA: I think President Biden has been playing this pretty, pretty straight and I think pretty effectively, mainly because we have done this in unity with our allies.

And what we are doing, both with the sanctions, as well as the weapons we're providing, the assistance we're providing, the retaliation against Russia, it is being done in unity. And I think that's extremely important, because one thing Putin understands is force, is power.

He's a KGB agent. And he has always operated by power. And the one thing he understands very clearly is power when it is applied against him. And that's what we're doing. And that's what we have to continue to do.

CABRERA: Secretary Leon Panetta, thank you very much for taking the time today. It's good to have you here.

Families are fighting to survive in Ukraine, while trying to keep life as normal as possible for their children. Anderson talks to one family taking on that challenge every day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: What do you tell a child about what is happening?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Adventure, just an adventure.

CHILD (through translator): Mom, let's go to the playground.

COOPER: The kids think it's an adventure. But for Ana (ph) and Timor (ph), it's more like a nightmare.

(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)