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Russia Accused Of Bombing Children's Hospital, Maternity Ward; Images Shows Bodies Being Buried In Mass Graves In Mariupol; Kharkiv Resident Documents Life Under Heavy Bombardment; Russian Forces Fail To Make Much Progress In Ukraine; U.S.: Potentially 6,000 Russian Troops Killed In Ukraine; Polish Group Helping Ukrainian Orphans; UNHCR: 5 Percent Of Ukraine's Population Has Fled. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired March 10, 2022 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:00:24]

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome once again to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. I'm Michael Holmes live in Lviv, Ukraine. Expectations not high but at least they are talking. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov is set to meet with his Ukrainian counterpart in Antalya, Turkey, about two hours from now.

Dmytro Kuleba says his priorities are a ceasefire to liberate Ukrainian territories and resolve humanitarian issues. We're not sure what would satisfy Mr. Putin. Meanwhile, more diplomacy happening in Poland. The U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris will meet with the country's president and prime minister in the hours ahead. She's hoping to clear up a dispute over Poland's plan to send fighter jets to Ukraine by way of a U.S.-NATO airbase in Germany. The U.S. rejecting that idea, saying it could -- just make things even worse.

Meanwhile, there is growing outrage over a merciless blast in the hard hit city of Mariupol. Ukraine accusing Russia of targeting a maternity ward and children's hospital. We're told 17 people at least were wounded. Pregnant women, new mothers and staff members but amazingly no deaths yet reported. Ukraine's President calling the attack a war crime and genocide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translation): Children's hospital, maternity ward, why were they a threat to Russian Federation? What kind of country is Russian Federation that is afraid of hospitals, afraid of maternity wards and destroys them? A strike on a maternity hospital is a final proof, a proof of genocide of Ukrainians is taking place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now warning for you now, the next few images we're going to show you are disturbing but they are important to see to really understand what happened. They show some of the visibly wounded victims from that hospital. Extremely pregnant women being rushed out and in some cases, carried out on a stretcher.

Russia denying responsibility again insisting its forces do not target civilians. But a few hours before the attack, the Russian Foreign Ministry claimed Ukrainian combat troops had taken up position inside the hospital. Ukraine, of course, denies that.

Mariupol has endured more than its share of misery. And once again, we're about to air some photographs you might find upsetting, but which are important to show. They are mass graves, the result of relentless Russian attacks on that port city. Overwhelmed workers and terrified families clearly unable to provide fitting burials.

Two city officials say about 1,300 civilians have been killed in Mariupol since the start of the invasion. CNN cannot independently confirm that figure. And it does far exceed the U.N.'s estimated death toll of just 516 which is for the entire country and is almost certainly a vast underestimate. Emergency workers want a severe shortage of basic supplies are going to create an even larger crisis

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no drinking water at all and nowhere to take it. People are looking for different sources of water from the ground like springs in the park, also people collecting water from the roof when the snow melts. And because this night there was snow, people collect in woods to cook their food.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now in north eastern Ukraine, the Russian military is unleashing massive firepower on the nation's second largest city. The British defense ministry tweeting Wednesday that Kharkiv is now completely encircled. Its mayor says heavy artillery and airstrikes are constantly pounding the city, often targeting civilian areas.

One resident documenting her life under siege and bombardment. ITN's Dan Rivers with her story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kharkiv is increasingly resembling the 21st century Stalingrad. Only this time, it is Russia laying siege to a city which is defiantly resisting. Somehow amid all this, its residents are surviving.

The day after a missile slammed into Kharkiv's town hall, we asked a resident of this city, Annassia Paraskayvova to document what's happening to her home.

ANNASSIA PARASKAYVOVA, KHARKIV RESIDENT: My city, Kharkiv is under constant attack. Bombings, rocket fire, artillery fire all day, non- stop. Just today, for Russian warplanes flew near my house.

[01:05:09]

RIVERS (voice-over): Annassia is trying to keep her body, mind and soul together with her family in their apartment where they're sheltering from the bombs.

PARASKAYVOVA: This is our hiding place. It's vegetable area between two walls with no windows. We also have a little bit of space for our bunny rabbit.

I just found out Russians have bombed my favorite place in Kharkiv, (INAUDIBLE) Street. I feel really angry.

Look what they've done. I celebrated my birthday one time in this bar.

RIVERS (voice-over): As the siege tightens, so Annassia struggle to survive forces her to venture outside.

PARASKAYVOVA: Me and my sister are going to pick some water. My sister is going to fill this bottle. All set.

So the elevator is not working for 10 days now, so we need to work on stairs. Go, go. This is how we do it.

Annassia sleep is now often interrupted by the sound of war plane circling as the bombing of Kharkiv intensifies.

PARASKAYVOVA: I have some good news. My family is alive. I am alive. My house is still standing. My friends are OK. No one I personally know have yet died during Russian invasion of Ukraine. I have electricity, drinking water. Some food. Not much but enough.

RIVERS (voice-over): Each day the bombs are falling closer. This is the university sports complex.

PARASKAYVOVA: We heard a very loud explosion. The door shook and windows too. And this was it.

Apocalypse now. And among the ruins, we have found a little dog. Look at him. My sister says he's really trembling really hard.

Last night was probably the most terrifying night of my life. Kharkiv was terribly bombarded last night. Airstrikes all over the city. Dozens of buildings destroyed. Similar buildings where people live.

I'm not going to take much because I'm hoping I will return soon enough. My sister says it's like going on the trip but an awful one, I guess.

So as my parents can the longer withstand it, the constant bombing especially after last night, which was truly a terrifying thing. We are going to leave if we live that long, of course. So I don't want to leave. And I won't be leaving Ukraine. We will be moving to somewhere just farther away from Russian border.

I don't know why but being bombarded is easier than leaving your home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[01:10:06]

HOLMES: Utterly heartbreaking. Just put yourself in the position of those people

Now Beth Sanner is a former U.S. Deputy Director of National Intelligence, now a CNN National Security Analyst. A lot of people thought this invasion wouldn't happen. She thought it would. I asked her why she was so sure Vladimir Putin would invade Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think if you've watched Putin over many, many years, you know that he is capable of just about anything. And if you combine that with what he felt was his role in history, to recreate this part of Russia, historic Russia, and he looked at his watch and thought, you know, time is running out, and that the moment is right.

And there were lots of reasons for the moment being right. But he prepared for this for a long time, and he decided to pull the trigger. And I think also just understanding that, you know, he is not getting the kind of information that would have caused him to make good decisions based on the information. So he did not understand that it was going to go this way. And I think that that, you know, plays into that.

HOLMES: Whatever his isolation, he obviously, in his head, made a strategic decision. Given the united response to the west, the problems on the battlefields, the sanctions, the isolating of Russia, as a country, the damage being done to the economy, given all of that, would he be thinking now, it was a good strategic decision?

SANNER: Probably not. I'm sure that there's some buyer's remorse here. But, you know, when you have put this much in, it's not like you can walk away and say, at this moment, never mind. You know, he has to kind of go forward. And I think that's why a lot of us are saying that we expect him to double down a little bit more before he's actually going to be willing to make any concessions. He's going to have to get something out of this given what he has expended.

HOLMES: Yes, and then the question is, what is that? Do you think there will come a point where he realizes there is not a military solution for him in the way he would have envisioned anyway, you know, toppling the government, installing his own, you know, having Ukraine at some sort of vassal state, do you think that point will come? And if so, what then?

SANNER: I think that that point may have already come, that doesn't mean that he had -- he can stop now. He may see and perhaps that is part of why there's a meeting now, today, Thursday, in Turkey between Lavrov and Kuleba, the foreign ministers, is because he's preparing for that point where there should be a negotiated -- there must be a negotiated solution.

But I think also, we have to keep in mind that it can't just be a negotiation between Ukraine and Russia. It's also going to have to bring in the United States and the Europeans because he's going to have to get some kind of agreement that walks back on just the incredible pain that we are now placing on the Russian economy. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Beth Sanner there speaking with me earlier.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, the number of refugees has now passed the 2 million mark. When we come back, we will dig deeper into where they're going, how they're getting there, and what awaits them.

We'll also meet one woman who left her own family behind to help orphans and foster children get to safety. We'll have her story too after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:17:43]

HOLMES: All right, the U.N.'s refugee agency says more than 2 million people have now fled this country that translates to about 5 percent of the nation's population. Think about that. According to the U.N., they're mostly heading to Ukraine's neighbors such as Poland and Hungary. However, some are fleeing to other E.U. countries and even Russia. And most of the refugees are women and children leaving behind everything fleeing for their lives.

There are no flights so the trip is on foot or in a car or on a train. Most of Ukrainians heading to Poland as we've reported where they may have relatives or friends perhaps.

Our Sara Sidner had met with a group taking care of orphans who had nothing when they left Ukraine. They are safe for the moment, but have little hope of returning home anytime soon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The normal beautiful chaos of children at play. But these children have been through hell and back more than once in their young lives. Some are orphans, others foster children in Ukraine and suddenly overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking Foreign Language).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome.

SIDNER (voice-over): They became war refugees. Fleeing over the Polish border from Kyiv.

TATYANA, SOS CHILDREN'S VILLAGES: (Speaking Foreign Language).

SIDNER (voice-over): Youngest one says, I want to go home. I'm telling him that he can't. It's scary there. He doesn't understand.

This is the only woman they know as mama. This is their comfort, their constant. She helped them escape Ukraine. But doing that meant leaving her own family behind and becoming a refugee herself.

I have a daughter and mother in Ukraine. I'm worrying so much. But these children should be saved. Her daughter is staying behind to fight Russia as a member of the Ukraine territorial defense. These children have been fighting for their place in the world from an early age. We're not showing their faces to protect them.

(on-camera): Is there abuse as well. Actual, physical abuse?

OKSANA, PSYCHOLOGIST, SOS CHILDREN'S VILLAGES: (Speaking Foreign Language)

SIDNER (voice-over): Before the war, our children have been abused physically, psychologically, economically and sexually. They suffered. They didn't have a childhood.

[01:20:00]

Now in Poland, they are safe at the SOS Children's Village, but the trauma of war and abuse never really goes away, their longtime mental health counselor says.

She's held it together to reassure the children, even while they all hid in the basement with bombs exploding outside.

It was around 4:00 a.m., I woke my husband up and told him, Kolia (ph), this is war. We started to seal the windows. The children started to scream. I was trying to calm him. Look at me, breathe. We're going to seal the windows, everything is under control. Now, we need you to stop the panic and help us.

So far, SOS Children's Village says, it has brought 107 orphans and foster children out of Ukraine. Some children escaped without seeing war up close. Others witnessed horrific scenes.

There's a girl which is coming to us. She broke free from the hell of Irpin, a city that's been leveled and she witnessed a family being shot before her eyes. When she thinks of the man responsible for raining down bombs and bullets on her beloved country, her tears turned to rage which.

Putin is the second Hitler. It is serious. If the world doesn't stop him, there will be World War III.

(on-camera): Putin has said that he is going into Ukraine to kill Nazis. You are saying that Putin is, in your mind, the new Hitler?

Yes, it is obvious now that he is not fighting Nazis.

While they are all grateful to escape to Poland, the children and adults all say they want one thing, to be able to cross the border home to a safe Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: And I should mention that now the number of refugees in total that have come over the Polish border from Ukraine is now up to 1.3 million people.

Sara Sidner, CNN, Przemsyl, Poland.

HOLMES: All right, I want to bring in now, Joung-ah Ghedini-Williams, she's the head of Global Communications at the U.N. Refugee Agency. And good to see you. You have travelled to the Polish, the Moldovan and Romanian borders, so you have a good lay of the land. What have you been seeing?

JOUNG-AH GHEDINI-WILLIAMS, HEAD OF GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS, UNHCR: We've been seeing what has been described and is genuinely the fastest Exodus since World War II in Europe. And in addition to the 1.3 million refugees who've come into Poland alone, there have been 2.2 million refugees overall in just 14 days going into all the neighboring countries. So it is a huge scale refugee crisis.

HOLMES: It is staggering. It is utterly staggering. And when you see some of the people who pass through here on their way to places like Poland, the numbers, just big. I believe. I saw, where you said, quote, the level of fear and trauma is clear. Give us a sense of that level of trauma, the impact of it.

GHEDINI-WILLIAMS: I think for many of the refugees that I've met, they had just minutes to decide to leave, because they had been hoping to stay in Ukraine, they did not want to leave. One of the women that I met, she was traveling with her three children and their two dogs. And she said she had every intention of staying. She left behind her husband, her parents her brother. And she said the only thing that finally made her go was that her daughter started having panic attacks, was barely able to breathe.

And so -- and I could see, they were completely shell-shocked. And we're seeing that across the board. And as you've seen, it's almost all women and children that are coming across at this point.

HOLMES: Yes, I did read where you mentioned the look in that -- the daughter's eyes in that car. Now the fact is as horrendous as this humanitarian crisis is, the magnitude of it in this space of time speaks for itself. But the reality is, it could be just the beginning, right?

GHEDINI-WILLIAMS: We fear it is just the beginning. Because right now the people that are coming across, many of them are coming by car, they have the means, they have family members. And what we're also thinking is, is people that probably are either living with disabilities are physically or medically unwell to be able to leave right now in the early days. And it's also people who might have, you know, large families and not enough of a support structure.

So what we fear is that the next group of refugees that come out are going to be the ones that are even more at risk and that will really need international support, and the support of the neighboring countries.

HOLMES: And the reality is, is it not that, you know, depending on what happens in the weeks and even months ahead, this could be a years long problem, couldn't it? Some people might not be going home for a very long time if at all.

[01:25:06]

GHEDINI-WILLIAMS: Considering the devastation that we're seeing inside Ukraine, it is very possible. I mean, it's similar to -- I started my career in the Bosnian war and there are so many similarities in terms of the scale of destruction that we're seeing. And I think that, you know, we're talking about entire cities at risk, entire populations on the move. And Ukraine has a huge population. And so it is something that we're extremely concerned about, about how long is this crisis going to last.

HOLMES: Yes, and the challenge is always to make people around the world see past the numbers and to see into the eyes of the individuals.

Joung-Ah Ghedini-Williams, really appreciate your time and the work that you're doing.

GHEDINI-WILLIAMS: Thank you.

HOLMES: Well, if you would like to help people in Ukraine who might be in need of shelter, food, water, and warm clothing, I can tell you, it's 11 degrees Fahrenheit right here, right now, minus 11 Celsius. Think about that. A lot of people outside making their way to the border and so on.

Go to cnn.com/impact if you'd like to help. A lot of resources there for you.

Well, it is no easy feat to move thousands of people away from the dangers in this country. Coming up, volunteers putting their lives on the line to help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: All this is happening under the threat, the threat of artillery strikes and gunfire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CHANCE: That's a real threat right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a real threat, but we have no choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:30:59]

HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone. We are about 90 minutes away from the highest level face to face

contact between Russia and Ukraine since the start of this invasion. The Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov expected to meet with his Ukrainian counterpart in Turkey. Dmytro Kuleba says his priorities are a cease fire, liberating Ukrainian territories and resolving humanitarian issues.

Meanwhile, U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris is in Poland where she will meet in the coming hours with that country's president and prime minister to discuss issues regarding fighter jets for Ukraine.

And back in Washington, the U.S. Secretary of State meeting with the British foreign secretary, Liz Truss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ TRUSS, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: We have surprised Putin with our unity, and the toughness of our sanctions -- hitting the banks, the ships, the planes, the oligarchs and the oil and gas revenues.

And the brave Ukrainian people have surprised him with their determination and their leadership. Now is not the time to let up. Putin must fail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Meanwhile, Ukrainian civilians, of course increasingly being targeted. One of the latest attacks hitting a maternity and children's hospital in the south eastern city of Mariupol during what was meant to be a pause in fighting on Wednesday.

Ukraine's president calling the bombing a quote, "Russian war crime and proof of genocide". Local officials say mothers and staff were among the at least 17 people wounded.

And of course it is not the first Ukrainian hospital to be hit. The World Health Organization says it has verified at least 18 attacks on health facilities, health workers and ambulances since Russia began this invasion causing at least ten deaths.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEDROS ADHANOM GEBREYESUS, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: The only real solution to the situation is peace. WHO continues to call on the Russian Federation to commit to a peaceful resolution to this crisis and to allow safe, unimpeded access to humanitarian assistance for those in need. A peaceful resolution is possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now there are plans to prepare six humanitarian routes to open up in the coming hours. They would offer desperately needed evacuation of places like Mariupol and Volnovakha. Both of those cities surrounded by Russian forces for several days now.

Now President Zelenskyy said nearly 35,000 people were rescued from Sumy and also the Kyiv (ph) region and from Enahoda (ph) on Wednesday.

Matthew Chance now reports on the humanitarian corridors that are a lifeline away from makeshift shelters and relentless Russian strikes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the chaos of this evacuation, a frantic search for a lost child. In the rush to escape the fighting, an orphan has been left behind. Each bus now desperately checked for a familiar face.

(on camera): Hello. Hi. Do you speak English?

(voice over): For the journey across the front line, the children are well protected against the cold if not the bombs. The older kids were terrified, their parent (INAUDIBLE).

But the little ones didn't understand the danger they were all in, she says. This is a mass exodus from areas under heavy Russian assault. An agreed safe corridor which hundreds of civilians and entire families are using to escape before it closes leaving the horrors of the past few weeks behind.

NADIA, UKRAINIAN EVACUEE: My name is Nadia.

CHANCE (on camera): Nadia, where have you come from, Nadia?

NADIA: From Vorzel (ph).

[01:34:57]

CHANCE: From Vorzel (ph) which is a town up there.

NADIA: This is a place which was a very dangerous and had a lot of Russians and a lot of Chechens. I don't know.

CHANCE: Russians and Chechens?

NADIA: Russians and Chechens. They killed our -- the owner of the house where we sitting in.

CHANCE: They killed the owner of the house?

NADIA: Yes. Yes. They killed the owner of the house.

CHANCE: And so you must have been --you're your family over here -- you must have been terrified?

NADIA: Yes.

CHANCE: Frightening.

NADIA: It was terrifying, absolutely terrifying. My family is ok. Now we are going to the -- ten days in the underground.

CHANCE: You've been ten days underground. NADIA: Ten days underground.

CHANCE: Oh my goodness.

Well there you have it. Just one family that has taken this opportunity to escape the horrific situation they found themselves in for the last ten days or more.

And again, you take that chance to get themselves and their children out of here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a lot of volunteers who help with nutrition, warm --

CHANCE: All these sandwiches. They're helping them do that safely, this embattled Ukrainian official tells me, is now as much a part of fighting this war with Russia as killing the enemy.

KONSTANTYN USOV, KYIV DEPUTY MAYOR: Warm food and warm drinks. We have a medical crew that helps to manage people that were wounded. We've seen shelled people with broken and ruptured legs here. And we have a security force that actually interviews people because we are afraid that Russians may have sent some of their own.

CHANCE: Spies?

USOV: As spies, as saboteurs.

(CROSSTALK)

CHANCE: And all of this event is happening of course, all this is happening under the threat -- the threat of artillery strikes and gunfire? That's a real threat right now.

USOV: That's a real threat. But we have no choice because we have thousands of people who really have spent more than a week in their basements with no cellular coverage. With no access to medical assistance. With have no food, no lights, no electricity. And they want to flee early. They need us to help them.

CHANCE: But as the buses leave for the capital, the boom of artillery fire resumes in the distance. The window for this escape from the fighting is closing fast.

Matthew Chance, CNN -- Kyiv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: All right. We'll have more from Ukraine later this hour. But let's go to John Vause in Atlanta for now, John.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Michael thank you.

Well, still to come here on CNN, while his military underperformed on the battlefield, Putin's propaganda machine appears to be losing the information war, unable to control the narrative at home, outplayed on social media by Ukraine's comedian turned president. A closer look at why when we come back.

[01:37:53]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: The White House is warning Russian forces in Ukraine could potentially use chemical or biological weapons. Press secretary Jen Psaki, pointed to Russian allegations that the U.S. is developing chemical weapons in Ukraine tweeting this, "Now that Russia has made those claims, and China seemingly endorsed them, we should all be on the lookout for Russia to use chemical or biological weapons in Ukraine.

The tweet said, "It could be part of a false flag operation. Psaki added, Russia has a track record of using chemical weapons and accusing the West of for its own violations. U.S. State Department also accused the Kremlin of outright lies, after accusing the of a chemical and biological weapons activities in Ukraine.

CNN's Katie Polglase takes a closer at how about these once debunked claims are finding new life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATIE POLGLASE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The foreboding music. Biohazard warnings.

This Russian state media footage from 2015 claims to show America running facilities in Ukraine and Georgia that caused deadly outbreaks of disease and killed local livestock.

This story is false, but that does not stop it continuing to circulate evolving from biological hazards to biological weapons and becoming a key part of Russia's disinformation campaign, justifying the invasion of Ukraine.

The claims were debunked several years ago when in 2020, the United States issued a statement to quote, "set the record straight", explaining the facilities are in fact for vaccine development and to report outbreaks caused by dangerous pathogens before they pose security or stability threats.

But this week, the story was back.

MARIA ZAKHAROVA, RUSSIAN MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: We are confirming the facts that were unveiled during the special military operation in Ukraine that indicate an emergency cleanup of military biological programs by the Kyiv regime. They were carried out by Kyiv and financed by the United States of America.

POLGLASE: Multiple times the Russian foreign ministry has resurfaced the debunked story. On Tuesday, it was mentioned by a Russian ally.

ZHAO LIJIAN, CHINESE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: It is reported that those biolabs store a large number of dangerous viruses. During Russian military operations, it was found that the U.S. is using those facilities to conduct biological, militarization activities.

POLGLASE: So alongside these official statements, it's being repeatedly shared across social media from Facebook to Twitter to Telegram.

And CNN's been tracking its spread and you can see here it's been posted in Canada, Australia, Germany. And this tweet is one example, you can see it's been re-tweeted over 500 times already.

The theory has now attracted the attention of figures and platforms with significant followings in the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go into Ukraine and take out the biolab.

POLGLASE: Such as the conspiracy theorist (INAUDIBLE) and is being featured on a far-right platform, Infowars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: U.S. bio weapons labs in Ukraine.

[01:45:00]

POLGLASE: And so Russia's false narrative on American biolabs in Ukraine continues to spread.

Katie Polglase, CNN -- London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Well, some Russian disinformation may get traction like the false story about U.S. bio-chemical labs in Ukraine. For the most part, Russia's propaganda machine is underperforming, much like its military on the battlefield.

Surprising not least because of Vladimir Putin's reputation as a master media manipulator. So what's gone wrong?

Ian Garner is an historian specializing in Russian war propaganda. He's with us this hour from Kingston in Canada. Welcome to the program.

IAN GARNER, HISTORIAN: Thank you for having me.

VAUSE: Ok. So Russian control over the narrative at home, in theory should have been clearly straightforward. But Putin's propaganda machine has struggled here to prevent the real story actually from reaching a fairly significant chunk of the population.

So what's gone wrong on that front? And one of the consequences here for Vladimir Putin especially if the body count ticks up, and their, you know, body bags coming home, and there are Russian mothers mourning the loss of their sons?

GARNER: I think what's gone wrong really seems to echo what's gone wrong on the battlefield. The over confidence that the Russian government has in its narrative, which of course, of wild lurid stories about Ukraine being fascist, Ukraine packed with Nazis.

narratives just don't seem to have caught on with the population at home. There are, of course, a number of state TV, state media consumers who aren't looking beyond that narrative who are really fired up by this stuff.

But especially when you look at younger Russians, who are much more engaged on social media and are using messaging apps like Telegram to share every news, they are getting exposed to all sorts of stories from outside of Russia, including good and reliable sources like of course, yourselves, and non-reliable misinformation and disinformation that's coming out of Ukraine, that is coming out of opposition outlets in Russia too.

The consequence for Putin is that well, ultimately if you're going to have a long and costly war, costly both in terms of the bodies you mentioned, and in terms of the sanctions and the effects on daily life then, you're going to need to have a motivated population to fight that war.

We've seen what's happened in America with enthusiasm for Iraq, with enthusiasm for Afghanistan, we remember what happened in Vietnam in America, think how enthusiasm waned over the years as justification for war seemed to die away.

Putin's machine doesn't have that justification amongst its wider population already.

VAUSE: Well UK's president on the other hand, he's been very successful in not just countering Russian disinformation, like that false report he's been to the Capitol. But also talking directly to the people of Russia managing to get his message to them. It's been quite effective.

GARNER: Absolutely, so many of Putin's justification's for war are based around references to World War II, are based around references to the Soviet Union and Russia having saved the world.

And what Zelenskyy has done is he's turned to Russia's population. He's spoken in the Russian language, and he is a native Russians speaker as well as speaking, of course, perfect Ukrainian. And he is painting himself and his country as the heir to that heritage. And saying, we're under attack by this huge aggressive state. We're the ones who are in besieged Kyiv, just like besieged Stalingrad and Leningrad during the war.

So please come and support us. And look at our populations being tortured and killed. And of course, he's playing this game on the international front as well. He's reaching out to the British parliament, he's reaching out to the U.N. And he is using all of the skills he learned as an actor and as a media operator to just turn the screws on whoever he's talking to at any given time.

VAUSE: And you mentioned when he addressed the British parliament, Zelenskyy, he actually used, you know, Shakespearean language and Churchillian language like this. Here's a small clip. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We will fight and defend our land no matter the cost. We will fight in the fields, in the forest, on the coast, in villages, and cities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: It's a real lesson in knowing your audience. But also the people of Russia know him, because he was an actor and a very popular comedian before he became president. So there is a connection there that he manages to have with people of Russia.

GARNER: Absolutely. I mean Putin's propaganda outlets have long tried to paint him as just some comedian, right? He's just a stand up comic. Just a funny guy, irrelevant, kind of a nobody.

But he's not, he was a big actor and he's clearly a phenomenal and a smart media operator. He came to power. He won the presidency off of the back of a social media campaign that painted him as the guy who was all about a new Ukraine.

[01:49:53]

GARNER: All about European Ukraine and it appealed to Ukrainians and it really appeals to progressive and liberal minded Russians as well who want to see their country go in that direction.

Clearly, what they are not getting as Russia is beginning a very repressive crackdown, is a movement towards Europe but a stampede away from it.

VAUSE: Yes. Ian, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate your insights. It's an interesting discussion, an interesting part of the story. So

thank you.

GARNER: Of course, it's a pleasure.

VAUSE: Much more of our breaking news coverage of Vladimir Putin's war of choice in just a moment when we return live to Michael Holmes in Lviv right after this. You're watching CNN.

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[01:54:48]

HOLMES: The ringing of cathedral bells in Switzerland that show solidarity with the people of Ukraine. It's one of many grand displays of support around the world.

Let's have a look in Hungary. More than 1,500 Greenpeace activists and volunteers came together to form a massive peace sign in Budapest.

And in the U.S., a giant Ukrainian flag unfurled on a hotel across from the Russian embassy in Washington. A powerful message from the community there.

Live from Lviv in Ukraine, I'm Michael Holmes.

Our breaking news coverage continues after the break.

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HOLMES: Welcome everyone.

Two weeks into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the country's foreign ministers are about to try talking again, this time in Turkey. That's meant to be in about an hour from now. But all previous attempts at diplomacy have failed to yield any real breakthroughs.

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