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Russia Seeks Military Assistance from China in Ukraine; Russian Airstrikes Got Too Close Poland's Border with Ukraine; Tom Brady Tweets He'll Return to the NFL for 23rd Season; Biden Speaks with France's Macron as War Rages in Ukraine; Interview with Representative Seth Moulton (D-MA) about Ukraine Crisis. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired March 13, 2022 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:23]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR KITSCHKO, KYIV TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, FORMER BOXING CHAMPION: This is our home. We will defend the country until the last drop of the blood.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There were three at least massive missile strikes leaving huge craters.

SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): It's concerning that it was a western Ukraine attack. The people who were here on the border could hear it even though it's 15 miles away.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): This is very provocative to be this close to Poland. This is all about air defense.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Are you worried that giving those planes to Ukraine could actually trigger World War III?

PORTMAN: What we've heard directly from the Ukrainians is they want them badly. They want the ability to have better control over the skies in order to give them a fighting chance.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): We need to provide Ukraine with everything it needs to defend itself against this onslaught including those planes.

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translator): We shall continue defending ourselves. Ukraine does not surrender.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday.

It's 2:00 a.m. in the capital of Ukraine and we have shocking new images of Russian tanks deliberately blasting holes in civilian residential apartment buildings. Watch. This is the Russian siege on the strategic port of Mariupol. Officials

say the death toll just in that city alone is close to 2200 people. Civilians there already suffering, trapped, unable to evacuate. They are living without heat, electricity or running water and say food is quickly running out.

And in the west, a Russian airstrike comes dangerously close to the border of a NATO ally.

Ukraine says Russian war planes fired more than 30 missiles on this military training facility near the western city of Lviv. It's about 12 miles from Ukraine's border with Poland and that adds to the fear that the conflict could catastrophically escalate and draw in NATO, including the United States. The strikes killed 35 people.

And Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy posted these images on social media today. He is seen visiting wounded soldiers in the hospital and it comes as Russia requests military assistance from China. That's according to a senior U.S. official. A Chinese embassy spokesperson claims to be unaware of the request.

And in other developments today, Ukraine's foreign minister says Russian forces have abducted a second mayor of Ukraine. CNN cannot independently confirm that claim. And the United Nations is reporting that 579 Ukrainian civilians have been killed in the conflict so far and more than 1,000 are injured. Of those civilian casualties, 42 children are confirmed dead. The United Nations concedes the true numbers are almost certainly much higher.

We are covering all the angles from both in Ukraine and here in the United States. I want to start with Oren Liebermann at the Pentagon.

Oren, what have you learned about the Russian request for Chinese military assistance?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, a senior administration official says Russia has turned recently to China looking for more military equipment for its Russian invasion of Ukraine. Now it's unclear how China has responded or if it's even responded yet but earlier today National Security adviser Jake Sullivan made clear that if China were to provide certain kinds of material or tried to provide a way for Russia to skirt the sanctions imposed on it by the U.S. and so many other U.S. allies, that China would pay a price.

As the U.S. works to see what kind of response there is here, it also says something about the Russian military that many consider to be a world class military that less than a month into this all-out invasion of Ukraine, it already may appear to need some sort of resupply. Now it's unclear what would be in this shipment or what Russia has requested, but that officials tells CNN, our colleague Jim Sciutto that they have requested drones.

As this appears to go very slowly for the Russians, drones are one of those weapons that could certainly shift things in Russia's favor. Now as all of this has happened, Russia carried out strikes across Ukraine including in western Ukraine, at a military base very close to the Ukraine-Poland border. The Yavoriv military base only about 11 miles or so from the border. Officials there say 35 were killed in the strike, more than 100 injured.

Of course, it raises concerns the closer that gets to NATO territory, the closer that gets to a NATO country, the closer it gets to an all- out escalation.

[20:05:09]

Pamela, the U.S. has been working very hard and has essentially set a parameter that this fight is to stay in Ukraine trying to avoid a conflict between the U.S. and Russia, between two nuclear super powers.

BROWN: And we've also learned of the first American that we know of killed in this war, a journalist. What can you tell us about him?

LIEBERMANN: Not only the first American, the first foreign journalist we know of who's been killed covering this war. 50-year-old Bret Renaud was there on behalf of "TIME." "TIME" issued a statement to CNN saying he was there covering the refugee crisis. We've already seen more than 2.5 million or so refugees pour out of Ukraine into neighboring countries, as well as so many who are internally displaced.

He was there covering that when Kyiv Regional Police say Russian forces shot and killed him. He was there in a car with a camera when this happened. We heard from that cameraman Juan Arredondo as he was recovering in the hospital.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: U.S. What's happened to you?

JUAN ARREDONDO, JOURNALIST ACCOMPANYING BRENT RENAUD: We were -- we crossed the first bridge in Irpin. We're going to film other refugees leaving. And we got onto a car. Somebody offered to take us through the other bridge and we crossed a checkpoint and they start shooting at us. So the driver turned around and they kept shooting. There's two of us, my friend is Brent Renaud, and he's been shot and left behind.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

LIEBERMANN: Renaud is an award-winning journalist. He's won a Peabody Award, one of the most prestigious awards in journalism. He's done work for many media outlets and he's worked in some critical places in his work covering refugees, Afghanistan, Haiti, Egypt and beyond in his line of work.

Pamela, this certainly goes without saying for us but it is worth reiterating, the work of journalists in Ukraine and elsewhere is critical to understanding really what's happening there on the ground and getting a true sense of it. That work should not be interfered with, not by Russia, not by anyone.

BROWN: All right, Oren Liebermann, thank you very much. Live for us tonight from the Pentagon.

Well, the United Nations estimates that 2.7 million Ukrainians have fled the fighting at home and crossed into neighboring countries. Most of them are in Poland and that is where we find CNN's Ed Lavandera. He is at the Polish-Ukrainian border.

So, Ed, what are you seeing there tonight?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, what you see behind me is the pathway that comes across from the Ukrainian border and this is a scene that continues to play out where you see thousands of Ukrainian refugees continuing to come across the border here into Poland. And essentially, what Medyka, Poland where we is turned into a round-the-clock hub to get these Ukrainian refugees to safety.

This pathway is the long walk that they have taken to get here to Poland. We just spoke with one family that came from a town called Kryvyi Rih. And ironically enough, it is the hometown of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. That family told us that they boarded a bus in that town, which is just southeast of Kyiv about 7:00 this morning and have traveled all this way just showing up here at the border just a few minutes ago.

But what happens now is very much up in the air as many of these families, these refugee families, women and children have to look for a place to live for the coming weeks and perhaps even months.

Earlier today, we also spoke with a doctor who came here from Germany and was involved in helping get 50 orphans here to safety and that doctor talked to us about what that experience was like for him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. WJAHAT WARAICH, TREATING UKRAINIAN REFUGEES IN POLAND: Many of them as I told you due to coolness, the coldness, they had severe cooling on the fingers and the toes. Some of them were really exhausted, tired and had vomiting and nausea and had pain in the stomach. Of course, they had children from 3 to 12 years old so my thoughts were before they were, you know, before the travel to Germany and Austria, we're to check them, we're to examine them and then also treat some of them.

LAVANDERA: These children, you saw them as severely traumatized?

WARAICH: Yes, many of the patients or many of the people arriving are traumatized. Actually, as a doctor, the normal case is the patients come to doctor, only emergency cases we come to the patient. So here it is like you have always, nearly always to go to the patient because many of them they forgot that they have some diseases, they have some severe injuries like wounds which are infected. We need to treat it.

So what we are doing as a doctor or what I'm doing as a medical doctor, I got the patient and this is all what I'm doing on the streets here. I ask the people if everything was fine and then they remember, OK, yes, of course, I forgot my medication. I didn't take it but I have severe hypertension for example or they can remember, yes, I have a great wound, please have a look at it.

[20:10:05]

And several times, in several cases, I found some infected wounds which needed -- which has been done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: And Pamela, that doctor told us he is the son of Pakistan refugees who immigrated from Pakistan to Germany in the 1980s and because of that experience, he felt he needed to be here to help these refugees in this week in this time of need. And as mentioned, you know, this is the pathway just beyond the gates you might see down there in the distance that is Ukraine and that is where thousands of people continue to be dropped off either walking or taking bus rides from the interior of the country to this border checkpoint to cross into Poland tonight -- Pamela.

BROWN: Ed Lavandera, thank you for bringing their stories to us from Poland.

And joining us now is CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Colonel, so I want to get to this latest news that's coming out today. We've learned that Russia is asking China for military help. Now the Chinese embassy has told CNN that it is unaware of this request. It's claiming that. But how big of a deal is that?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's a big deal because every time, Pam, that China does something like this, they would provide things like military equipment, potentially munitions, communications equipment, perhaps cryptographic equipment, all kinds of things that would enable the Russian war effort and that is a really, really big thing, you know, from the standpoint of a war fighting mission and would definitely enhance Russia's ability to sustain the operations that they've got on going right now.

BROWN: And let's talk about that, that war effort. You know, I got to say, when you think about the Russians and all of the obstacles of these abandoned tanks and now asking China for help but why -- leading up to this war, there is all this talk about how they're just this like, you know, pristine killing machine and world class military. I mean, were we all just duped? What's going on here?

LEIGHTON: Well, part of it was probably a Russian disinformation campaign, quite frankly. And, you know, what we did was we took a look at their doctrine. We took a look at some of their pronouncements, we took a look at what Putin was saying. We took a look what his military leaders were saying, and all of them indicated that this was a major killing machine that was being developed right here in Russia.

But the fact of the matter is there were a lot of organizational issues that this conflict in Ukraine has actually brought to the fore and every time you look at this, I mean, when you see, for example, around Kyiv and you look at here, there's been basically no movement in this area and in this area. And certainly not too much in this area.

Here there is an exception to that. In the south there actually has been some movement and they have made some progress from their point of view, but when you see that, you know that there are definitely issues. It is not a synchronized operation that we would expect.

BROWN: It certainly isn't. But yet they have caused considerable damage across Ukraine most recently at this military training facility about 12 miles from the Polish border. Tell us about that and just the significance of that.

LEIGHTON: Well, this is a big deal, Pam, because it's really only 11 to 12 miles from the Polish border. The Polish border is this line right here and that very fact means that they're getting so close to NATO because both Poland and Slovakia which is not too far away from this either, as well as Hungary and Romania are all NATO members. So any attack on these countries, even a slight incursion, even an unintended incursion could potentially trigger actions by the United States to help defend these countries.

And that is why this is huge because -- and not only is it huge from that standpoint, it is also big because this is really the first time that there has been a sustained attack against anything that's even close to Lviv, which is the city that we've been seeing as kind of the alternate capital of Ukraine.

BROWN: Right. I mean, we were just talking to a reporter there earlier, Scott McLean. He said people have been going about their business there, they feel protected. This strike on this military base shows that nowhere is safe in Ukraine and perhaps beyond. I mean, that is a scary part.

There has been all this talk about no-fly zones and the Biden administration has been very clear it is not going to put a no-fly zone in Ukraine. Would a no-fly zone have prevented such a strike?

LEIGHTON: It really depends because we believe that based on reporting that the strike was carried out by missiles that were launched from aircraft, so in that particular case, the answer would be yes. A no- fly zone would have potentially help as long as the aircraft that are launching the missiles were in Ukrainian air space, and we're assuming that the no-fly zone would be only for Ukraine and no other territory in and around the Ukrainian air space.

But if these are ground launched missiles, then it becomes a completely different issue because what you're seeing there is something that would have to be taken care of by firing on the ground instead of on the air. So a no-fly zone would not take care of a ground launch missile.

[20:15:04]

BROWN: There is reporting now today from the Russian media that the Chechen leader is there right outside of Kyiv trying to the soldiers there, trying to galvanize them, talking about how important Kyiv is to take over. You have said history could provide a clue into how the Russians are going to try to take Kyiv. Tell us more about that.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Pam. Because, you know, Kyiv is right here. And you see the way the Russian forces are so close to the outskirts of the city both the northwest and the northeast but historically, you're going to have to take a look at things like the way the Soviet army back in World War II went to Berlin and how they handled the siege of Berlin which resulted in the final collapse of Nazi Germany. That basically was a war of annihilation. Not only did they encircle the city like they could do here in Kyiv, but then they move into the city from multiple points and in addition to all of this, they used artillery to basically flatten the entire city scape and that changed not only the topography of the city but the demography as well.

People, you know, were moved out, many people died. That's the kind of thing that we're looking at. And over 50,000 Soviet soldiers died in the Siege of Berlin, the very last gasp for the Third Reich and it still took away 50,000 Soviet soldiers.

BROWN: We know how much the Russians have relied on artillery in the past. I want to get to this viewer question about what else could happen here. This viewer asked, could armed drones be used against the artillery that is attacking civilian targets?

LEIGHTON: Yes, they could. And in fact, armed drones are basically used to target all kinds of weapons and placements, all kinds of installations. So it's very possible that an armed drone could be used to go after artillery and placements. All you need to do is you need to know the coordinates and you need to know exactly how to go after it, what kind of weapons load you would need and what the vulnerable points of the missile and placement are so yes, it could happen.

BROWN: All right. Thank you so much, Cedric Leighton.

And coming up, the U.S. says it won't help enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine but more lawmakers are saying that needs to change. I'll talk to a member of the House Armed Services Committee coming up.

And we're following breaking news tonight, Tom Brady says he's back. He's already had enough of retirement. It's only been, like, what, a little over a month? He's returning to Tampa Bay he says. I'll talk to a former teammate, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:39]

BROWN: We're going to get back to our Ukraine coverage in just a moment. But we wanted to update you on this breaking news and surprising news from the NFL. The retirement that shocked the league is not going to happen right now. Quarterback Tom Brady just weeks after calling it quits announced a short time ago that he is coming back.

CNN's Coy Wire is here with me.

All right, so does it really count as retirement, Coy, if it's just six weeks and during the off season?

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR (via phone): That's right, Pam. The 44- year-old is not done yet. So (INAUDIBLE) happening right now, Pam. Teams are getting tickets to March Madness and Tom Brady taps out a monster tweet adding mayhem to the madness and probably a lot of are you kidding me? He posted pics of him playing the game and his children and wife Gisele Bundchen at a game and he tweeted, "These past two months, I've realized my place is still on the field, not in the stands. That time will come but it's not now. I love my teammates and I love my supportive family. They make it all possible. I'm coming back to my 23rd season in Tampa. Unfinished business. LFG," he tweets.

Brady was in the stands, Pam, in England yesterday witnesses another legend, Manchester United's Cristiano Ronaldo breaking FIFA's all-time goals record and with three goals in the match maybe his hat trick had some magic on Brady. The two talked on the pitch afterwards. Brady there with his family and the Glazer family, owners of Manchester United, and also owners of the Tampa Bay Bucs.

Brady famously announced his retirement as you mentioned about six weeks ago citing time with the family would be gained, and that was a big part of it. But the news was broken by other reporters first and many speculated that that really perturbed Brady. His Bucs barely lost in the divisional round of the playoff last season 30-27 to the Rams. And as one of the most competitive individuals in sports history, that had to have made him absolutely sick to lose like that to the eventual Super Bowl Champs.

Now technically Brady still remains on the Bucs roster, Pam. He was expected to be put on the reserve retired list after June 1st but it looks like that won't be necessary anymore. The trickledown effect of this is an avalanche effect, Pam. 24 (INAUDIBLE) with the Bucs are now going to strongly reconsider any talk of going elsewhere. Rumors of start Rob Gronkowski possibly going elsewhere they'll disappear.

The betting odds for the Super Bowl champs for this upcoming season has been taken off the board at Cesar Sports Book. The top trend on Twitter right now is not March Madness. It's not basketball, it's Tom Brady. And it looks as if we will get to witness more of one of the most incredible athletes of all time, at least one more time.

When I played for the Buffalo Bills, I played against Brady twice a year every year for six seasons, Pam. And it was as if he knew our defenses better than we did. Nobody works harder, studies harder, competes harder than Tom Brady and clearly he's got more in the tank.

BROWN: He sure does. He's the GOAT. All right, Coy Wire. Thank you.

I want to bring in now Chad Brown, he's a former linebacker for the New England Patriots and a former teammate of Tom Brady.

Chad, what's your reaction to Brady's, I guess, unretirement?

CHAD BROWN, FORMER LINEBACKER, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: Pam, I'm not surprised. When you put up your career best number as Tom did last year, it's hard to walk away from the game when you're playing that well. I played 15 years in the NFL and I felt like I squeezed every possible drop I could out of that orange. I think Tom is thinking looking back at last season how well he played, how Tampa Bay was a deep play-off team, there is a chance for him to win another Super Bowl.

[20:25:07]

So I don't want to walk away too early. I think every player would rather walk away a year too late than a year too early and I think that's what's fueling Tom's return.

BROWN: Yes, I always suspected that that would pull him and bother him. They almost made it to the Super Bowl, right? Barely lost that play-off game. Tell us, though, bring us into what that is like. I mean, how hard it was for you to retire and just that pull to want to go back into the game and get back on that field.

C. BROWN: Well, initially, it's pretty easy because there is not a lot of football news happening. The Super Bowl happens and it kind of dies down. But this is the time of year where now players are getting signed and there is player movement going on. The Denver Broncos got Russell Wilson from Seattle, other quarterbacks and key players are moving and trading teams around the league.

The NFL news gets kicked up to the headlines and now that sense of peace that you had just a couple of weeks ago is now gone because there is just internal time clock and every football player says around this time of the year, it's time to start thinking about football. It's time to start preparing for the off season and preparing for the season coming up.

Tom, I think that time clock is going off in his head, he's looking around and going, I still got it. I can still do this. Let's run it back at least one more time.

BROWN: All right. Chad Brown, thanks so much.

C. BROWN: Thank you.

BROWN: And back to our coverage of the war in Ukraine as Russian forces keep pounding Ukraine with airstrikes, the question remains tonight. Should the U.S. help establish a no-fly zone? More lawmakers on Capitol Hill are calling for it. I'm going to ask my next guest, Congressman Seth Moulton, who is also an Iraq war veteran, if he agrees.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:08]

BROWN: This just in from the White House. President Biden speaking with the president of France tonight as world leaders struggle to find a way to end Russia's war in Ukraine. Let's go straight to CNN's Arlette Saenz at the White House.

Arlette, what are you learning about their conversation? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, President

Joe Biden spoke by phone with French President Emmanuel Macron just one day after Macron and the German chancellor Olaf Scholz spoke with Russia's President Vladimir Putin. Now a White House readout of the conversation between Biden and Macron says that the two reviewed recent diplomatic engagements and underscored their commitment to hold Russia accountable for its actions and to support the government and people of Ukraine.

Now this comes as Russia has really been intensifying their campaign in Ukraine including targeting that military base just near the border of Poland. Of course, Poland being a NATO country. Now the U.S. has remained firm that they will continue to provide a defense equipment and mechanisms to Ukraine to defend themselves but the president it appears in this phone call getting an update perhaps on that call that Macron had with Putin as French officials had told the U.S. that Putin still seems determined to carry out his agenda when it comes to that attack on Ukraine -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Arlette Saenz from the White House tonight. Thank you.

Well, this week Congress will vote on new sanctions on Russian luxury goods. It's the latest move from the Biden administration to pressure Putin without escalating the crisis, they hope. Escalating, rather. But tonight, more U.S. lawmakers are calling on the White House to take off the gloves and get fighter jets to Ukraine including some senators from both parties who were in Poland this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KLOBUCHAR: I'd like to see the planes over.

PORTMAN: They want the ability to have better control over the skies in order to give them a fighting chance. So I don't understand why we're not doing it.

BLUMENTHAL: All means of air defense should be considered and my personal feeling is we should provide those planes.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, he is on the Armed Services Committee, and a Marine Corps veteran who served in Iraq.

Nice to see you, Congressman. Good to have you back on the show.

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Good to see you, Pam.

BROWN: You just heard there Republican -- thank you. You heard there Republican Senator Rob Portman along with your Democratic colleague, Senator Richard Blumenthal, calling on the Biden administration to reverse course and allow Poland to send fighter jets to Ukraine. Now that Russia is requesting military assistance from China, do you think the White House should reconsider letting Poland send those jets? MOULTON: Look, I think we should send those jets but that's very

different than American planes enforcing a n-fly zone. I do not think that is wise. I think enforcing a no-fly zone with our own planes, our own pilots would escalate the war, and Pamela, you said it exactly right. The key here is how do we put more pressure on Putin without playing into his hand and actually escalating the conflict?

He wants to turn this into a war versus NATO. We've got to make it clear to the world that this is Russian aggression against Ukraine and nothing more.

BROWN: It's interesting. So your view is there should be -- the U.S. should not be involved in enforcing a no-fly zone. But I know when you were on the show last time, you talked about the importance of strategic ambiguity as well. Would you like to see more of that from the Biden administration when it comes to such things as a no-fly zone and sending in the jets and so forth?

MOULTON: Well, here's what I think they should do and they've actually started to do this just a little bit. I think we need to put more air defense assets all around Ukraine to make it clear that we are bolstering NATO's defenses because what this ultimately does is it puts more pieces on the chessboard that can ultimately be negotiated and divided up in some sort of diplomatic end game.

[20:35:03]

The challenge with this conflict all along from long before it started is that it's very hard to see any diplomatic resolution, any treaty that both sides will agree to. If we put more patriot batteries for example in Poland as the Biden administration has already begun to do, then at some point in the future, we can negotiate those away. It'll be a win for Putin to take home for his people and we won't really lose anything because we just brought them there a few weeks ago.

That's an example of the kind of additional pressure we need to put on Putin. Look, if we can get those Polish planes to the Ukrainian air force, I'm all for it. But I do not think that American pilots should be shooting down Russian war planes. That will escalate the conflict. That's frankly what Putin wants.

BROWN: On Friday, President Biden warned Russia that it will pay a, quote, "severe price" if it uses chemical weapons in Ukraine. Today, the president's National Security adviser warned that the U.S. is worried Russia may launch a chemical attack and try to blame it on the U.S. or Ukraine. How concerned are you about this possibility?

MOULTON: I'm very concerned about it. I think it's a very realistic possibility. Look, we've seen Putin use this heinous playbook before. He did it in Syria, he did it in Chechnya. We should expect it frankly especially because the war is going badly for him. This is one of the problems is that we looked at this before it happened and everyone expected a quick military victory, a terrible insurgency because the Ukrainians would fight back but we thought that Russia would come to a quick military victory. That obviously hasn't happened. It puts Putin in a box. He's really backed into a corner. He doesn't

know what to do, and although we're all excited about that for the sake of Ukraine, it actually makes this strategically more complicated and strategically more dangerous.

BROWN: So the Biden administration has taken off many measures, right, saying we're not going to put -- the U.S. is not going to put troops on the ground. There is not going to be, you know, there's not going to U.S. involvement with the no-fly zone. We're not going to send in jets. So when you hear President Biden say there is going to be a severe price if Putin uses chemical weapons, what should that be?

MOULTON: Well, I actually like the fact that he said there will be a severe price without spelling out exactly what it will be because, I mean, I don't think we should put American troops into Ukraine but I also don't think it was wise for the president to say that outright. I think we should have left that strategic ambiguity as you said earlier. So making it clear that Putin will pay a price for chemical weapons without specifying exactly what that price should be, I think that's exactly the right approach.

BROWN: Earlier in this conversation, you said that escalation is exactly what Putin wants. So you really think that Putin wants to have an escalation with the United States?

MOULTON: Well, look, the way this is going for Putin, he's actually looking at losing what he thought would be an easy war. And he will go down in history as having taken this evil immoral, illegal action against his neighbor and actually lost the conflict. That's what he's looking at. That's the future that he's starting to see. What can he do to turn that around is make this into a wider war.

If this becomes just the opening saga in World War III, then Putin thinks he is much better off. That's the concern that we all have. And on top of that, Pamela, it sounds crazy but the Russians actually have in their doctrine, in the way that they are trained to fight, this idea that you can escalate in order to deescalate a conflict. You know, use a tactical nuke because it will scare your enemy into submission.

This is literally written into Russian doctrines. So I believe that escalation is exactly what Putin wants. He wants to go back to his people and say no, this isn't a war against Ukraine. This is a war against NATO. That's what it's always been. NATO is the aggressor just like he's trying to make the case as crazy as it is that Ukraine is the aggressor. If he's able to do that, he turns this around more in his favor especially as he explains it to a skeptical domestic audience.

BROWN: I want to get your reaction to this, Congressman, because we saw Ukraine's President Zelenskyy visiting injured soldiers in a Kyiv hospital. You're a former Marine Corps officer. I'm curious, what do you think about the leadership and resolve President Zelenskyy has shown throughout this crisis?

MOULTON: I can tell you, it makes all the difference in the world to have leaders who are on the ground, who go out to the front, not just to comfort the wounded and show solidarity with the troops but to actually understand what is going on, what is happening in the fight. That is a core tentative leadership.

When I was in Iraq, I made it a point to wake up in the middle of the night and go talk to Marines in my platoon who are out there on post at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. A lot of officers wouldn't bother to do that. But that's how you know what's really happening.

[20:40:01]

So what Zelenskyy is doing is he's not just presenting a good image to the world. He's not just showing the resolve of himself as a leader, although he's doing those things, he's also understanding this conflict. He's understanding what his troops are going through and ultimately that will make him a better strategic decision maker as well.

BROWN: And it's worth noting, he's conducting this visit while the Russian forces are just about 15 miles right outside of Kyiv closing in. So it's just incredible against that backdrop, as well.

Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you.

MOULTON: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: Russia's push towards Kyiv continues with the bulk of its ground forces now just about 12 miles from the Ukrainian capital. I'm going to talk to former assistant Defense secretary and combat marine, Bing West, about what's going on.

And remembering the long career of an Oscar winning actor William Hurt dead at the age of 71.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:33]

BROWN: As the Russian assault on Ukraine enters its third week, Vladimir Putin's forces continue to focus on the capital city of Kyiv.

I want to bring in Bing West. He is a former assistant secretary of defense and author of "No True Glory: A Frontline Account of the Battle for Fallujah."

So on March 4th, you wrote a "National Review" op-ed called "The Coming Siege of Kyiv." Well, it has been a little more than a week since that op-ed was published. You wrote that a siege could last longer than a month. I'm wondering if your assessment has changed since then.

BING WEST, FORMER ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY: Actually, it has not, Pamela. I was glad to see that you had Seth Moulton on first because he's the young Marine and I'm the old Marine. So I'll just pick up where Seth left off. Seth was indicating and full disclosure, I campaigned for him, Seth was indicating that he thinks this is going to go on for quite some time. So do I.

The Russians now are in a difficult position. It's not clear that they're going to win this one. And what's going to happen is going to be determined over the next three to four weeks and the critical variable there, Pamela, isn't the siege itself. It's whether or not there can be a resupply line into Kyiv. That's the critical thing. Will there be a resupply line that continues?

BROWN: And so how would that happen? I mean, what would it take for that to continue?

WEST: Well, it's going to be a fight. The Russians as they encircle the city are going to know the critical point where the Ukrainians are trying to keep them out of a certain area so they keep the supplies going in. So there is going to be a constant fight going on on the outskirts. And it's not clear to me who is going to win that fight because the Russians have to be resupplied also. And now that you're getting into the spring and the thaw and much more mud, this is a two- way fight now.

And if Kyiv is -- if we're having this conversation three weeks from now, I think, Pamela, all bets would be off as to what is happening because sometime between now and, say, three to four weeks, Putin is going to have to try to cut some deals because he's looking worse and worse every day.

BROWN: And just for our viewers, what that means is, you know, in a few weeks that means it'll be harder for the tanks for example to move through, right? Because the ground will not be as hard and therefore the tanks will have a harder time coming through and supplies could have a harder time getting through. So that's really interesting context.

You compared what's happening in and around Kyiv to Fallujah and Mosul. Can you walk us through the biggest differences?

WEST: Well, I was at the battles of Fallujah. I've been in Mosul many times. It took the Marines who were pretty tough troops with tanks and artillery and air about three weeks to go through Fallujah, which had 36,000 buildings. Now, you go to Kyiv. Kyiv has something like 300,000 buildings. And so you have a giant task in front of you if you're a Russian and you don't have the moral that our Marines have, so this idea of fighting street to street, house to house really comes down again as I've said to the resupplies because the Ukrainian defenders I think after a week or two weeks, they're going to be exhausted.

There will be no hospitals. There is no way to put the wounded. They need food. They need water. There will be no electricity and at that point, the moral becomes critical. And so far, as Seth was indicating, the president has done, he's done an incredible job but I also am concerned that he's a single point and you could see how the Russians would like to kill or wound him, take him off the battle field and I hope that gradually the president also comes forward and shows us his second in command, somebody else so that we know it isn't just one person.

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We know that the voice of Ukraine isn't focused just on one person, terrific though he is. We have to know there is somebody else after him as (INAUDIBLE).

BROWN: Bing West --

WEST: Then if the Ukrainians keep -- I'm sorry, Pamela.

BROWN: That's OK. I know we're just running out of time. So sorry to cut you off right there. But go ahead. Just quickly, if you would.

WEST: I was simply going to say if I had to say one thing, it all comes down to, can we keep a resupply line open into Kyiv over the next three weeks?

BROWN: That's the big question. We'll be watching for it. Bing West, thank you.

WEST: Thank you.

BROWN: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. When we come back, remembering the Oscar winning actor William Hurt who has sadly passed away at the age of 71. We'll be right back.

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BROWN: We have sad news to share with you tonight. Oscar winner William Hurt has died at the age of 71 just a week before he would have turned 72. Most recently you would have seen him in a number of Marvel super hero movies. Older fans probably know him best from movies like "Kiss of the Spider Woman", "Broadcast News" and "The Big Chill." Over his career, Hurt was nominated for a total of four Oscars including a Best Supporting Actor nod for a role that lasted less than 10 minutes in "The History of Violence."

Well, thank you so much for joining me this evening. I'm Pamela Brown. A special "AC 360" is next.

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