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U.N.: 2.8-Plus Million People Have Fled War-Torn Ukraine; Thousands Leave Russia Following Ukrainian Invasion; Economic Sanctions on Russia Don't Seem to be Having Desired Affect to End Invasion; U.K. to Explore Using Sanctioned Russian Oligarch Homes for Refugees; U.N.: Russia's Media Crackdown Amounts to "Total Information Blackout"; Pfizer's CEO Says Adults Will Need Fourth Dose of Vaccine. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired March 14, 2022 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, now we are at the train station in Przemysl, Poland, which is a few miles from the border where we were last night.
Ukrainian refugees will come off the platforms there. They will make their way into the train station here.
What is so poignant is, they walk in, one of the first things they see is this sign. Here in Polish and Ukrainian, it says, "Here you are safe."
That is exactly what so many of these refugees are seeking in these harrowing times. It is -- you know, the point here is where they try to figure out what is next.
From here, they need to figure out temporary shelter for the next couple nights, as they figure out where to go long term over the course of the next few weeks and possibly months.
We spoke with one woman who had just arrived. The train ride from Lviv, which should normally, Anderson, take two, maybe three hours tops, is now taking close to 11 hours. That train is filled with people from all over the country.
What has really struck me is how much we are seeing stories of people who have come from the far eastern sides of Ukraine to get to this point. Journeys that are taking several days, through the treacherous war zone of Ukraine.
This woman tells us that she had to evacuate her mother to Poland because she is seeking cancer treatments in Poland. But she plans on going back as soon as she gets her mom to a safe place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDRA VOYTENKO, UKRAINIAN RESIDENT: I don't want to stay here. I want to be in Ukraine. I'm Ukrainian. I want to be with my family. My mom just needs to receive treatment. That's only the reason to travel.
LAVANDERA: You think, by going back, it sends a message that we're here to stay, we're not going anywhere?
VOYTENKO: We're here to stay. We will continue to work. We will win soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: Anderson, what was really so pointed about that interview with that young woman, she said, you know, Ukraine deserves to win this war. She say, we are on the right side of history. Because of that, they will win.
So that determination to go back, it's almost like going back, even though she isn't going to be involved in any kind of street fighting or warfare. Just that resistance of being there physically is a message of resistance.
That's what so many people here are hoping that it is a symbolic message. They are not going to give up this fight easily -- Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Ed Lavandera, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
As millions of refugees flee from Ukraine, tens of thousands of citizens are fleeing from Russia as the country faces global backlash and a near total blackout on outside information.
Moscow-based "New York Times" correspondent, Valerie Hopkins, joins me now.
I know a number of your colleagues have been focusing on this. And you've talked to -- you live in Russia. Or I suppose you just moved there.
VALERIE HOPKINS, MOSCOW-BASED CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I used to.
COOPER: You used to.
HOPKINS: I guess I should be formerly a Moscow-based correspondent.
(CROSSTALK)
HOPKINS: "The New York Times" made the decision, along with other media organizations, to pull out after a new law against -- that basically punishes calling this invasion a war or an invasion or anything besides a special military operation, with 15 years in jail. That's why tens of thousands of other Russians have fled. It seems
like the biggest -- actually, you know, there's no war on Russian territory.
And this looks like the biggest movement, the biggest exodus of Russian people since 100 years ago, when a number of anti-Communists actually fled the country after the revolution, including my ancestors, actually.
COOPER: We have seen demonstrations throughout Russia ongoing. Numbers seem to be getting smaller, if I understand. A lot of people being arrested.
HOPKINS: Yes, 14,000.
COOPER: But the vast majority of Russians, it seems, support what is going on here.
HOPKINS: Well, it's very difficult to know, right? I mean, I've been reporting myself about Russians who don't believe their own Ukrainian family members that there's a war.
But as this has been going on, I think people are possibly finding out more information. The problem is, you know, it is illegal to even do a poll and ask a question, do you support this war?
When you do those polls, you know, people don't have accurate information.
But, you know, and the stakes are becoming so much higher, right? There was a video two days ago of a woman holding an empty piece of paper, just a white piece of paper. She was arrested.
There was another video from Moscow of a woman expressing her displeasure about the war. And another woman -- and she was arrested and taken away. A second woman who stepped up to say she supported the war. The cops came and took her away, as well.
So basically, anything from wearing a bag, a tote bag that says, "No to war" -- not this specific war but any war -- can get you arrested. That's why so many people have fled.
COOPER: You also went to the area near the base along the Polish border that was bombed, according to Ukrainian officials. And 35 people were killed. We haven't independently verified that number.
It is unclear exactly what was going on there. U.S. officials have come forward and said that it was not being used as a hub or transit point for U.S. weapons or supplies coming into Ukraine.
There certainly was a training center before the invasion. U.S. troops used it to help train Ukrainians before the invasion. They left, obviously, before.
[13:35:09]
But it seems like there was training going on. Certainly, it was a massive strike.
HOPKINS: Absolutely. About two dozen missiles were shot at the center, which is called this Peacekeeping and Security Training Center.
As you said, U.S. officials have said that this is a training site and that any weapons and ammunition are there for purely training purposes.
But you know, it really sent shockwaves through Western Ukraine. We've seen already 2.8 million people have left the country.
But yesterday, from this town, next to the base, already another 1,200 left in one day since that happened yesterday. I was there again today, and that's what the mayor said.
I saw people packing up their cars, hugging loved ones, kissing the men who have to stay here, good-bye.
This was a wake-up for the people who thought, hey, we live 12 miles from a NATO and E.U. border. We'll be protected.
COOPER: For Lviv, which has not seen direct strikes, some 26 miles from Lviv, and obviously a number of airfields, as well, in the West, have been hit in the last couple of days.
So appreciate your reporting. Thank you so much for being with us.
HOPKINS: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. I appreciate it. Valerie Hopkins from "The New York Times."
So far, nothing has stopped Vladimir Putin, Ana, and, obviously, this is continuing.
That's the concern here in the West, that there's going to be more strikes around Lviv, more strikes on airfields and perhaps other targets, as well.
ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Now we're going to speak to a long-time Russian opposition leader who survived two poisonings. He knows firsthand Russia's ruthless tactics.
And a powerful moment on the pitch. A Ukrainian soccer player, Andriy Yarlomenko, breaking down after scoring in a Premier League game. This happened on Sunday.
It's a moment that really caught the attention of the world. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED SPORTS ANNOUNCER: Yarlomenko --
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED SPORTS ANNOUNCER: What a story this is! (CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED SPORTS ANNOUNCER: Andriy Yarmolenko.
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED SPORTS ANNOUNCER: The Ukrainian international, Yarmolenko, in tears.
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED SPORTS ANNOUNCER: Let me tell you something, if you can't see it, the Aston Villa fans are applauding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:41:58]
CABRERA: The U.K. says it's now looking into using the homes and properties of sanctioned Russian oligarchs to house Ukrainian refugees.
So far, Britain has sanctioned 800 of Russia's wealthiest individuals, businesses, and members of Vladimir Putin's inner circle.
Putin relies on the support of many of the wealthy and powerful Russian oligarchs, even the ones who live outside Russia.
It comes as one of Putin's closest allies admits the invasion of Ukraine is going slower than expected.
The head of Russia's National Guard blamed the slow advance on Ukrainian forces hiding behind civilians. There, of course, is no evidence of those claims.
Joining us is Russian opposition politician, Vladimir Kara-Murza.
He is an outspoken critic of Vladimir Putin, who was banned from Russian media for his support of U.S. sanctions a decade ago. He's also survived two poisoning attempts on his own life.
So thank you for your courage to continue to speak out. I appreciate your time, Vladimir.
Russia is paying a tremendous economic toll from the sanctions, from the private businesses that have pulled out of the country. So far, it is not having the desired impact to end this invasion.
Why isn't it working?
VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION POLITICIAN & PUTIN CRITIC: Russia is, indeed, paying a tremendous price as a country. In just the last two weeks, Vladimir Putin destroyed 30 years of economic progress since the collapse of the Soviet regime. But what's more important in terms of the sanctions policies in the
West is that we are finally seeing, finally, after all these years of enabling, after years of appeasable, after all these years of trying to pretend they didn't understand who Vladimir Putin really was and what he'd be capable of.
We are seeing Western countries, including what you just referenced, the United Kingdom, which is perhaps most important in this regard because of the overwhelming presence of Kremlin-aligned oligarchs in London.
We're seeing Western countries go after the personal finances of the close circle of Vladimir Putin. This is the key to all this.
I only wish this had been done earlier. If all these sanctions that the late Russian opposition leader and others in the Russian opposition movement were calling for had been affected a decade ago, we wouldn't be in this situation today.
When we are facing a large-scale war in the middle of Europe, and we are witnessing a humanitarian catastrophe and war crimes being committed by the regime of Vladimir Putin.
So as they say, better late than never.
And what is also important about this, in a way, for all these years, the West has enabled the regime of Vladimir Putin and all of its abuses by allowing the Putin-aligned plutocracy and the Putin-aligned oligarchs access to Western banks, Western market, and Western financial systems.
In a way, oiling the wheels of the Putin plutocracy over the years. It took Putin to launch a large-scale war in the middle of Europe to make this behavior change.
But as they say, better late than never.
CABRERA: His behavior, unfortunately, hasn't changed, even though the economic sanctions have gone into effect.
The question becomes, what could stop him at this point? What does Putin really want, though? And how far do you think he is willing to go?
[13:45:08]
KARA-MURZA: The answer to your question is very clear. Nothing will stop Vladimir Putin.
The only strategic end game to this is for Vladimir Putin to no longer be in power in Russia. This is the only strategic solution.
We know who this man is. He has been in power now for more than 22 years. He has murdered. He has imprisoned. He has attacked Russia's own civil society and he has attacked other countries. He has muzzled independent media. And now, we are seeing the humanitarian catastrophe that he's
unleashing in the middle of Europe.
If, by chance -- I don't think this will happen now. But if the West were to fall, if the West were to compromise, if the West were to sort of give into Putin's demands, we'd be facing the same situation next year, two years, three years from now.
The only way to end the aggression, the only way to end the repression, the only way to end the crimes and abuses that Vladimir Putin and his regime have perpetrated is to get Putin out of power.
Needless to say, only Russians can do that. Only Russians can affect political change in our own country.
CABRERA: Right.
KARA-MURZA: But it is important the free world stands in solidarity with those Russian journalists, with those Russian civil society group and help to provide Russian citizens with objective information, with the truth.
CABRERA: Exactly.
KARA-MURZA: As you have been discussing in the previous segment, there's a total economic -- forgive me -- total information blockade at the moment in Russia.
CABRERA: Yes.
KARA-MURZA: And most Russian citizens have no idea what the reality of this humanitarian catastrophe is.
CABRERA: So --
KARA-MURZA: It is vital to find the truth in the Russian language to citizens of Russia.
CABRERA: So how do you get through to them if, you know, Putin is keeping that media environment so in his control?
The independent media, as you know, has effectively been shut down there. There was an anchor for TV Rain who fled Russia after her network was put off the air.
She says people in Russia want to know what is going on. But, again, the question is, how do you get them that information?
KARA-MURZA: Well, I was one of the last guests on TV Rain in the Moscow studio a few days ago before they were shut down.
I had my own weekly program on Echo Moscow, the largest independent radio station in Russia, which was shut down in the first days of March because they were reporting the truth about Putin's war on Ukraine to the citizens of Russia.
So, yes, you're absolutely right, the domestic Russian political scene is effectively destroyed.
But you know what, if this can be done in the Soviet times, when the BBC and Western broadcasters found a way, despite the Soviet jamming machine, to beam the signals, to beam the radio programs into the Soviet Union and get the truth in the Russian language to millions of people inside the USSR.
This was instrumental in helping to delegitimize the totalitarian system in the eyes of its own citizens and eventually into the collapse of Soviet totalitarianism and the end of the Cold War.
Modern technologies allow for this much more easy.
You know, I'm somebody who is completely technical incompetent and took me in Moscow last week about 10 minutes to install a VPN on my phone, for example, which allows you to go around all these blockages the government is instituting.
When there's a will, there's a way. It is a question of will and resources.
And it is very possible to beam out this information, this truth, this objective news to the citizens of Russia who are being brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.
And I hope the Western democracies put serious efforts into getting the truth out to the people of Russia.
Because at the end of the day, it is only the people of Russia who can change the political situation in our country, who can remove this regime from power.
And it is only by removing Putin from power that we'll be able to see the end of those abuses and the crimes and the repression being committed in front of our eyes.
CABRERA: Vladimir Kara-Murza, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate your insight and perspective. I hope you personally stay safe.
KARA-MURZA: Thank you.
CABRERA: We mentioned it a bit earlier, but we wanted to put a spotlight on the tragic update to an image we brought you last week.
These images capturing the moments after Russian forces bombed a maternity hospital in the city of Mariupol. Emergency workers carried an injured pregnant woman on the stretcher.
We've now learned that woman and her baby have both died, despite frantic efforts by doctors.
[13:49:20]
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CABRERA: The price of oil dropping more than 8 percent today. Falling below $100 a barrel for the first time since March 1st.
Crude has now lost about a quarter of its value since peaking at a 14- year high on March 6th. And economists say this could soon lead to lower prices at the pump. For now, the national average is $4.32 a gallon.
Meantime, the pandemic is not behind us yet. The CEO of Pfizer says adults in the U.S. will need a fourth dose of its vaccine.
CNN's senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is joining us now.
Elizabeth, explain why a fourth dose.
DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So Pfizer, Ana, Pfizer says that that protection wanes over time. Now we don't have any data. Pfizer didn't give any. They said that would be forthcoming to the FDA.
But let's take a listen to what their CEO Albert Bourla had so say yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBERT BOURLA, CEO, PFIZER: It is necessary for booster right now. The protection that we're getting from the -- it is good enough. Actually, quite good for hospitalizations and deaths. It is not that good against infections. But doesn't last very long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:03]
COHEN: Now Pfizer data has also been essentially Israeli data. Pfizer is basically the only vaccine used in Israel.
Let's look at what we know about fourth doses in Israel. What we know is that they've looked at 400,000 people aged 60-plus who were given the fourth dose.
The Israelis say it more than tripled the protection against serious illness and doubled the protection against infection.
Now you could poke holes in that data. It is only people over age 60. Do we want to give fourth doses to those younger than that? Also, is it really so important that a vaccine protect against infection.
Some people would say we should really be focusing on hospitalizations and deaths -- Ana?
CABRERA: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.
And that is it for me. Much more after a quick break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
