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Zelenskyy Asks for No-Fly Zone; Ian Brzezinski is Interviewed about Zelenskyy's Speech. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired March 16, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Biden has said he believes that would get the United States into World War III.

But you did see President Zelenskyy say there, if you're not going to create a no-fly zone over Ukraine, at least give us more aircraft, at least give us more of these defense -- these air defense systems that we can use. And so we will see President Biden come out in just a few hours from now to respond to President Zelenskyy.

But, of course, what a personal appeal from the Ukrainian leader to the United States president, someone that he has spoken with several times since the Russian invasion began. And, of course, the big question is, how does President Biden himself respond, since we know he is not in favor of one of the biggest requests Zelenskyy made there.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: No question.

And David Sanger with us as well.

It was notable that Zelenskyy seemed to acknowledge the reality of the no-fly zone, by saying if this is -- if this is too -- to much, not possible, let's talk about surface-to-air missiles. It's my reporting this morning that there are additional surface-to-air missile systems going in there, not the S-300, which is a high altitude defense system, at least yet, but others that raise the ceiling as it were for Ukrainian air defenses.

In military terms, is that enough? Does that make a difference? Does that begin to make the skies, if not closed, safer over Ukraine?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It begins to make a difference, Jim, but I don't think it's going to happen on the pace at which he needs it. And the fact of the matter is that much of the -- of the worst that we've seen on the streets of Ukraine and even Kyiv is not coming from Russian air power, it's coming from the ground, from shelling.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SANGER: And closing the air space is not going to make that big a difference for that purpose.

What struck me the most out of this, Jim, was that you never heard him once mention NATO or NATO membership, or even peace talks so that he was basically saying, this is a moral cause, not a question of alliances. And if you're going to protect democracy and the aspirations of free people, you've got to come to Ukraine's aid, whether we're a NATO member or not. You know, it was what he didn't say in some ways that I thought was fascinating.

He also made no reference to the conversations underway with Russia about a cease-fire, any of his optimism or pessimism that that would happen. He was basically -- it was all about, let's find new ways to pressure the Russians militarily and economically.

SCIUTTO: It's a notable omission, David Sanger, for him not to repeat that demand of at least a path to NATO membership, which we should note is in Ukraine's constitution.

Kylie Atwood, at the State Department.

That is -- sorry, Sam Kiley in Ukraine.

That is a move by Ukraine to not stick to that demand, at least openness to NATO. We should always note, they didn't say NATO membership tomorrow, but they wanted to kind of keep that option open for their safety. That is a concession, is it not, by Ukrainians? And do you see that as a path to possible agreement?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think -- I think the important aspect of that, and it's been telegraphed a bit from his officials here following talks with Russia, is that they're kind of diluting perhaps their constitutional commitment, indeed obligation to join NATO, Jim, suggesting that since it's in no way likely, it's the sort of thing that could be set aside for the moment. Arguably, it's a line they could have taken before the Russian invasion.

But I think that nobody should be any under illusion whatsoever and they're certainly not under any illusion here in Ukraine that this has got absolutely nothing, nothing to do with Ukraine's exception (ph) to NATO and everything to do with having a pro-western democracy with a significant Russian speaking minority on the doorstep of a Russia which is an authoritarian regime and deeply uncomfortable with the existential threat that a democratic Ukraine would pose, philosophically and politically, to continued rule of Russia by Vladimir Putin. That is what this war is about. That is why it is easy, relatively speaking, for the Ukrainians to dilute or set aside or fail to mention the issue of NATO, because NATO is the fig leaf, if you like, it's the -- one of the motivating factor used by Russia, but it is not the true motivation.

And it's for that reason he focused so heavily on the moral, the dynamic, moral aspects of this, even suggesting that if countries can't or if NATO is not fit for purpose in defense of democracy in Europe, then maybe a different organization needs to come to life. And we've seen that evolving anyway in terms of bilateral support that has come, non-NATO, but by NATO members and non-NATO members to Ukraine, particularly with the supply of weapons.

I think also the level of urgency, it was very important for him to get across in that very graphic video which -- and I've worked here a lot before this city, for example, came under attack.

[09:35:08]

And now seeing it now, it's like being somewhere in the mid-1940s.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KILEY: There is an urgency, a real urgency, in getting surface-to-air missiles, particularly those high range ones. And I think he's trying to accelerate the debate and deal with the fundamental issues here, rather than the ones that people tend to get bogged down with in diplomatic circles, which, frankly, are irrelevant.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KILEY: NATO is irrelevant right now. This is about democracy.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's a crucial point because in the days leading up to the invasion, Vladimir Putin publicly, in effect, denied Ukraine's independence from Russia, denied that Ukraine was an independent country at all. So that when you hear -- when we have heard voices, well, certainly in Russia, but also even here in the U.S., to claim this is somehow NATO's fault from Vladimir Putin's point of view, this is not a country with any right for any sort of independence. It's an extension of Russia. And that informs, well, really, the ruthlessness of the invasion we've seen since then.

Major Mike Lyons, as we look at the military situation on the ground, one of the enormous surprises of the last three weeks since this invasion started is that Russia's vaunted military has been bogged down by much smaller military and is, in fact, not just not advancing, but losing a tremendous amount. At last count perhaps higher than 10 percent of its forces that have gone into Ukraine.

What is the status of the war right now?

MAJOR MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): Well, Russia looks like it's a stalemate. And the Ukrainians have fought them to that. It's just incredible to think three weeks into this that that is the case. The fact that they haven't completely surrounded Kyiv, the fact that there's escape points there. Mariupol, the same. While it's being pounded from the air and pounded by artillery, the city hasn't capitulated. The Russian soldiers not fighting. It doesn't appear that there's any

leadership. The logistics are running out. They're running out of ammunition. They're running out of food and fuel. So, I think the key, though, here on these air defense platforms that we're talking about, though, is the level of complexity.

One of the keys is, we've provided the Ukraine soldier this one to one weapons system. The javelin is one to one, one soldier. The same thing with the stinger. Well, if we're going to do that with the air defense platforms, it's got to be the same. And while some of those systems that he's looking for might help him, they're crewserv (ph) and they require fire direction centers and they're very complex.

So, we've done a really good job from a pragmatic perspective getting the simple and effective combat systems into the hand of the Ukraine soldier and they are drilling, absolutely annihilating Russian tanks, the Russian equipment with it. And I think that's what we still got to continue to do and keep pouring that level of equipment into the hands of the Ukraine soldier.

SCIUTTO: We made the point, based on the Pentagon's, frankly, conservative estimate, and they do grant that they don't know the true extent of Russian losses, but their estimate last week of Russian personnel losses on or around 6,000. We noted that that's approaching what the U.S. lost in Iraq and Afghanistan combined through 20 years of war. This in fewer than three weeks of the invasion so far.

Manu Raju on The Hill.

It's been rare, except on the issue of Ukraine, to see Republicans and Democrats stand up and applaud. We saw that at the State of the Union Address when the president -- when President Biden addressed the issue, the war in Ukraine, and certainly we saw the warmth and respect of the reception to the Ukrainian president here.

What are you hearing from members of Congress as to what they want to do now? Are they going to answer this call from Zelenskyy?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's still a division about exactly the policy that the United States should take in regards to Ukraine and whether or not they should do everything that Zelenskyy just called for. There is actually bipartisan opposition to the idea of imposing a no-fly zone. One top Republican senator, Roy Blunt, who's a member of the Republican leadership, told me that he is concerned with that idea moving forward. Mitch McConnell has expressed concerns about that in past, as well as House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy.

And I just caught up with one Democratic senator, Mark Kelly. He's a freshman. He's up for re-election in Arizona this year. I asked him about that idea as well, and he also had some concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): The first thing we would have to do is suppress the enemy air defenses. So we'd have to take out the Russian surface-to-air missile sites. And then, as Russian airplanes are flying, you have to enforce the no-fly zone, so you -- you have to shoot them down. And we can do that. But then we're in a direct combat action with the Russian military. That means we are at war with Russia. And, at this point, I think it is in the best interest of everybody for us to avoid being at war with Russia. Russia has 6,000 nuclear warheads. We have 5,500. The support we're giving Ukraine right now is effective. They took --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:40:00]

RAJU: Now, there's also some resistance from Democrats, including Mark Kelly, about the idea of transferring those aircrafts over to Ukraine as Zelenskyy just called for in Congress. Not just him, but also Mark Warner, who's the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He also expressed some concerns about going that route, and skeptical that that is the right approach.

But there is bipartisan support about the other actions that Zelenskyy called for, whether it's increased sanctions on members of Russian politicians, whether it's other actions as well, providing those surface-to-air missiles that he has called for. So, expect some more congressional action in that regard. Expect efforts to impose Russian oil ban, and to go after Russia's trade status.

So, there will be some legislative activity. There will be some bipartisan support. But, also, bipartisan division, division on both sides of the aisle, but exactly how far to go, particularly when it comes to those aircrafts and even the idea of imposing that no-fly zone.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Dana Bash, on the issue of aircraft, I've been told by U.S. military officials that that particular issue has been overdone, that Ukraine has more than 50 aircraft existing and aren't -- the number of sorties they're flying per day is actually quite low, dare I say some questions here become political footballs, the MiGs being one of them. But I know you've been speaking to lawmakers about this issue as well.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and I think that what Manu just talked to Senator Mark Kelly about is really important because they might not have the loudest voices here in Congress, but they are experienced voices. Mark Kelly was not just an astronaut, he also flew aircraft. So he knows what he's talking about. And my understanding is that when he's had conversations privately with the broader Democratic caucus, who most of whom have not flown aircraft in military situations, you know, he warns them about things like the MiG that the Ukrainians want to get from Poland, that a lot of, in a bipartisan way, members of Congress want to help make happen, he -- they say, well, wait a second, how do we know that they'll -- they're even going to be usable. Are they going to mesh with the Ukrainian radar systems and other really technical but really important questions that are unanswered.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BASH: So, there's that, in addition to what you just said about the fact that there are Ukrainian aircraft that haven't been used yet, which is why -- that's the sort of -- the nuts and bolts military question.

The other, which I'm sure you're hearing as well, Jim, is just the overall question of despite how impassioned and eloquent the speech that we just heard from President Zelenskyy was this morning, and those that he's given throughout the last three weeks, the fact remains that Vladimir Putin has chemical weapons, and he has nuclear weapons.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BASH: And he views the U.S. in a way that he doesn't view any other country on the planet.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BASH: And the more that the U.S. inches forward, maybe even leaps forward with military assistance, the more he will feel cornered and the more he might -- and he's -- we already know he is potentially unhinged, the more he will potentially escalate in a way that the United States, no one wants to provoke.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

And Vladimir Putin, in previous wars, if you look at Chechnya in the '90s, Syria more recently, when backed into a corner or when encountering obstacles on the battlefield gets even more ruthless.

BASH: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Directly targets civilians. And we've seen evidence of that. The pictures we see and then we were broadcasting earlier of direct attacks, not accidental attacks, direct attacks on civilian targets. That's not accidental. And that leads to this view, if backed further into a corner, does he raise it into the chemical warfare space or even it may sound far-fetched, but this is a worst-case scenario, into the nuclear space. Folks, take that threat seriously.

Thanks so much to our panel.

We do have much more discussion ahead on President Zelenskyy's impassioned plea for additional help in his country's continuing defense against the Russian invasion.

We also have President Biden's announcement of additional aid to Ukraine coming in just a few hours. Of course, CNN will bring you those comments live.

Plus, we do have a closer look at the devastation on the ground in Ukraine, and crucially the losses the Russian army has suffered. They are remarkable.

Stay with us for CNN's live special coverage.

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[09:48:43]

SCIUTTO: The Russian bombardment in Ukraine is worsening by the hour. And civilians are suffering. Today, plumes of smoke over the capital Kyiv after several blasts overnight. At least two people were hurt. The city remains under a strict curfew.

Further east, near the hard-hit city of Kharkiv, a drone camera captured what has become the complete destruction of this town. Huge craters, huge, created by Russian shelling.

In Mariupol in the south, officials say Russian forces are holding people captive. Where? At a hospital. This as thousands of civilians there are still hoping, struggling, to escape the city. Officials say more than 3,000 cars were able to get out of the city of Zaporizhzhia, but now that city has come under new Russian fire for the first time.

There are, however, signs of Russian forces weakening. The U.K. defense ministry says the Kremlin is calling in military reinforcements from as far afield as the eastern part of the country to replenish the losses.

And Ukraine says at least three Russian military helicopters blown up during a military strike on the airport in the town of Kherson in the south.

The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who spoke just a short time ago behind me here at the Capitol, is amplifying his pleas for more U.S. military and economic assistance.

[09:50:08]

He got a standing ovation as he implored Congress and President Biden for steps including closing the skies over his war-torn nation. This, the first time a foreign leader has addressed the U.S. Congress virtually. It was quite a moment to witness.

Joining me now to discuss, Ian Brzezinski. He's a senior fellow at the Atlantic Counsel. He's also served as deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe and NATO policy, this under President George W. Bush.

Ian, it's good to have you on this morning.

I want to ask you about the level of U.S. and NATO support for Ukraine at this point, because even Zelenskyy himself acknowledged to some degree in his speech that a no-fly zone, which would have required the possibility, at least, of U.S. and NATO war planes confronting and perhaps shooting down Russian war planes and the possibility of escalation, granting, OK, if that is not possible, send us more surface to air missiles, air defense, as well as fighter jets. Is that sufficient, in your view, for Ukraine to defend itself here?

IAN BRZEZINSKI, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Thanks, Jim.

You know, that was a powerful speech by Zelenskyy. An historic one. Probably ranking up there with Churchill in 1941, another country whose president -- or leader was addressing a joint session of Congress when his country was under siege. And that will -- that -- it was an historic moment.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BRZEZINSKI: His call for -- your question about military equipment and assistance, it's -- the west has been providing Ukraine a tremendous amount of support, be it the economic sanctions, and, of course, on Russia, and equipment, javelins, the anti-tank weapons and other military assistance has been provided. It has clearly been helpful. But I fear it's not going to sufficient.

You know, Russia has another 700,000 troops that it can pour into Ukraine as it slowly grinds down on the country. So I think Zelenskyy's call for a no-fly zone or a no-conflict zone, in western -- at least over western Ukraine, is something that should be given serious consideration if we want to really enhance confidence, strengthen confidence that Ukraine is going to be able to survive this onslaught.

SCIUTTO: If the U.S. and NATO were to do so, how do you avoid a direct NATO conflict with Russia? You would -- a no-fly zone, as you know better than me, would require at least the willingness to shoot down Russian warplanes with either U.S. NATO jets or U.S. NATO air defense systems. Would that risk be worth it, in your view?

BRZEZINSKI: I think you put it right on -- you hit the nail right on the head. We have to be ready to take on Russian forces if we were to do this. But the creation of a no-conflict zone in the portion of Ukraine that is least contested, a large part of western Ukraine, would require the positioning of forces in a way that would not require us to directly engage Russian forces. We wouldn't have to attack Russian forces. We would go in and secure a zone that could be used to help, you know, manage the displaced, the countenance displaced persons of Ukraine. It would be a zone which the Russians would then have to make a decision on whether or not they would want to attack western forces. That puts the ball in Russia's court.

Putin would then have to decide whether or not he wants to escalate the conflict. And I suspect he won't want to do that based on the performance of Russian forces against the Ukrainian resistance. They're clearly not ready -- the Russian forces are clearly not ready to take on western forces.

SCIUTTO: That's an interesting, interesting point. I mean there's so much nuance involved. And, of course, the risks remain, but nuance involved in how exactly one declares and how far into the country and how do they defend. I do want to ask you then, so you say the support is not sufficient to

this point. This was a moving, historic speech in which he made a direct appeal to the U.S. president, to say, if you are the leader of the free world, in effect, you have to defend us here. Is this a moment that moves the U.S. and NATO on this point?

BRZEZINSKI: I think he's -- he has reset the context for the upcoming NATO summit. I mean, first of all, his speech was historic and maybe a first in the fact that it was the first time we saw a video being used in an address to a joint session of Congress. And what a powerful and emotional video. It really raises the moral imperatives the west have to do more to help defend Ukraine. So, that's a powerful, powerful moment right there.

He's challenging Biden to live up to his responsibilities as the leader of the west, the leader of the democratic community of nations.

[09:55:02]

And he presented the de facto challenge to NATO, as one of your earlier speakers pointed out. He was saying, if NATO is not up to this challenge, we need to think of other security arrangements.

Wow, what a powerful challenge to the relevance of NATO in this day and age. That sets the context for next week's summit meeting and perhaps even today's NATO defense ministerial.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Yes, we talk about a rare address here to Congress. We should note that that summit meeting, a rare one, too, showing the urgency that U.S. and NATO leaders have now regarding this conflict and the possibilities of escalation as well.

Ian Brzezinski, Atlantic Council, thanks so much for joining me.

BRZEZINSKI: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: The breaking news this hour, President Zelenskyy turning directly to President Biden, the U.S. Congress, to Americans as Russia continues to strike Ukraine with rocket fire, including civilian targets. He is pleading for additional steps, including a no-fly zone over his war-torn country. Will that speech put more pressure on the U.S. to expand its role in Ukraine? We're going to have CNN's live team coverage continuing right after this break.

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